Thanks again for your kind words Dave and Flower. Yes, I always think I was so lucky to have survived my childhood, my parents affect on me, and then my youth, considering all the predicaments I put myself into. In reality, I know this is something that is treatable, and I know I am overreacting, letting my emotions take over. I get comfort from looking at it logically. There are worse things, and in the big picture, this is very very minor. I asked my doctor for all the statistics, but they don't really mean much. If there is a slim chance it could be more, even if it is only 4%, then the worry is there. I know all too well how much stress can affect a person's well being, and I am getting a grip on myself.

Yes, it does seem it came at a bad time. I was just FINALLY getting things settled with my parents, a huge emotional upheaval, and feeling pretty good about everything, and I didn't need this worry right now. Ah well, such is life I guess!!!!

We are going out tonight, and tomorrow night...and as much as I wanted to cancel on everything we had planned this weekend, I am going to force myself to go. I need some distractions! Some good music and the company of friends will help. I have not told anyone except you guys, and my husband. And I think I will keep it that way. I don't want to act like my parents, always dragging everyone into the slightest little health issue, or any other little problem that may come up, and going on and on and on about it endlessly. It was always all about them. I really hated when they used to do that. I sort of feel myself doing that the past couple days. So I need to get outside of my own head for awhile, it is driving me nuts! :) Thanks for listening and enjoy your weekend!

Sage

Hi Sage,

I can only imagine that being diagnosed with cervical cancer has changed everything for you.

"In reality, I know this is something that is treatable, and I know I am overreacting, letting my emotions take over. I get comfort from looking at it logically. There are worse things, and in the big picture, this is very very minor." This sounds like you are starting to handle this. My guess is that there will still be days this is overwhelming. Hang in there.

"Yes, it does seem it came at a bad time. I was just FINALLY getting things settled with my parents, a huge emotional upheaval, and feeling pretty good about everything, and I didn't need this worry right now. Ah well, such is life I guess!!!!" It's hard to understand all the twists and turns our lives take. I do have a sense that there is a purpose to the events in our lives and we are not just some pinball randomly bouncing around in life, until we die. The hard part is trying to understand and learn from these events. I'm not sure I'm very good at it. I think it's interesting that you confronted you parents now. It makes me wonder if at some level you knew you had cancer, and that dealing with your parents was an important part of dealing with this cancer. Have you heard of an author, Louise Hay? She wrote, "You Can Heal Your Life". Like a lot of books in this vein, some of it I find interesting, other parts, I'm sceptical about. Anyway, she has a section where she lists how holding specific thoughts, can cause specific illness. I think of this as something to consider, not the absolute truth. So she writes that a probable cause of cancer is, "Deep hurt. Longstanding resentment. Deep secret or grief eating away at the self. Carrying hatreds. What's the use?". She then goes on to write about how to let go of old thought patterns that make us sick. Her background is interesting. When she was about 5, she was raped by a neighbor. At 15 she dropped out of high school without a diploma, became pregnant and, on her 16th birthday, gave up her newborn baby girl for adoption. As an adult she found she had cervical cancer, and she concluded that its cause was her unwillingness to let go of resentment over her childhood abuse and rape. You can probably see why your situation made me think of her. However, I'm not endorsing of Louise's point of view. I do think it is interesting and worth thinking about. I still think you are the only one who can assess your situation, and decide what it going on.

I'm glad you are still getting out and having fun. Also, I don't think you would be acting like your parents, if you told your friends. It sounds like you really care about your friends and they care about you. Letting your friends in could give them a chance to show their love for you, and for you to feel that love. That could make both of you feel better. Peace.

Dave

Dave,

Hi, and thanks for your kind words. I trust you had a fantastic time skiing with your son! :) :)

I am finding this situation rather mind blowing. I have been thinking about exactly what you said. You are reading my mind again! I do believe that there is some truth to it, I really do. Stress alone can kill a person, I believe that. I have noticed that with people I know, and a couple family members. Their dysfunction, sadness, depression and various other 'problems' seemed to make them 'sick' in some form or another physically. Cancer, Lupus, etc.

Interesting connection Dave regarding the timing of this all happening, with my decision to break ties with my parents for good. Perhaps on some level I did know I had this happening in my body. That is a very interesting point to ponder. And now I need to treat the cancer right now - just as I need to 'treat' the anxiety and pain that is associated with the estrangement from my parents right now. Neither can be left, buried, forgotton about. And I certainly cannot ''pretend'' that there is nothing wrong. I need to treat my body, and my spirit.

I too do believe we can manifest disease in ourselves. And yes, I have heard of Louise Hay. I have a few of her CD's. I have read a couple of her books too, although quite awhile ago. I need to revisit them, since when I read them, I was not dealing with a health problem. I think they will have a new meaning to me now. Thanks for reminding me of her.

I had a really good weekend, and my intention was to create some distraction for myself, and keep busy. It helped to be out and about. So, it was all good...but now that I am alone again, I feel deeply depressed and very numb. I have to snap out of this because I know it only makes things worse - mentally and physically. I have a Dr. appt tomorrow.

I really appreciate your thoughts and feedback. I do believe very strongly that everything happens for a reason, there is some reason for all this - and the timing of it. It is hard to see the reasons, but they are there. My husband is so supportive, and although I have not told anyone else yet, I will tell a good friend. She just left for a holiday, so I decided I will tell her when she gets back.

I really need to find some way to let ALL this stress go.

Hi Flower, if you are reading...

Thanks again, and take care of yourselves,
Sage

Hi Sage & Dave,

Sage, I think distracting yourself with a good weekend was a very good idea. It's good to keep busy, but most of all active with some kind of physical activity or exercise. That was harder for me to do because of my injury, but I persevered as best I could.

I've never heard of Louise Hay, so I have no comment there. What I found helpful was reading up on survival stories and books. I've always had an interest in it, but it seemed more pertinent to my situation and the experiences that I've had to deal with.

For a time I felt as if I was responsible and to blame for my health issues and that had far reaching and negative consequences for me. I think it because of reading ideas that put forth that if I had negative thoughts that they would somehow manifest themselves in the form of disease and I heard that as yet another way that I was deficient or that I somehow caused or created illness in myself.

One's mental outlook is important and no one of us is perfect. I think we need to strive for balance. I do think there is some merit to understanding the body mind connection. If someone is depressed they generally don't take care of themselves as best they could. I do know that unexpressed emotions can lead to health issues. I forget the term psychologist use for this. I think what is important is that people need to be able to express themselves openly and one needs an emotionally safe environment to do so. No one can have a positive thought or control having a positive thought every single day and I don't feel that either balanced or healthy for myself.

I was very fearful of surgery. Having people tell me that I shouldn't feel that way, or not too, or minimizing my fear didn't help me. It actually made things worse, because I felt dismissed and I didn't feel safe expressing myself emotionally around them. On the other hand reading about survival was a good coping mechanism for me, because it put into words something I already knew, but needed to hear from another's perspective. It was validating. Survivors don't dismiss or ignore their emotions. They honor them and acknowledge them for what they are, and even more important they get them to work for them. I think you are already doing that Sage.

I think it very normal for you to experience ups and downs and a full spectrum of emotions. I know I did, despite our health situations being different. I had good days and bad days, including feeling depressed and numb.

I don't know if I'm expressing myself clearly today and I don't have a lot of time to write today either, but if you are interested in the book I found helpful, I'll get you the name later. I've kept it and return to it again and again. It resonated for me more than anything, although my reading has been quite extensive, so maybe it just really synthesized everything that I had read up until that time. I have a hard time describing it today.

Next time I'm at the bookstore I will take a look at the Eckhart Tolle. I had two doctor visits yesterday and two more later in the week, plus one procedure. Writing here has restimulated a lot for me, but that is a very good thing. Some of my emotions had to be placed on the backburner, because I was dealing with so much and always felt so overwhelmed and then the health stuff had to come first, so now I find myself returning to what I need to process it more fully.

You both are a real comfort to me, and I hope that I am for you as well and I'm glad that you both tolerate me protesting the herd. I appreciate you both. I should be able to write more tomorrow...take care of your hearts!

Flower

Hi Sage & Flower,

Sage, I had a great time skiing with my son, thanks for mentioning it. It's interesting we were thinking the same thing. Whenever I am sick or injured, I usually like to stop to consider what my mental state might have to do with what is going on with me physically. Sometimes I think we just get sick, sometimes I think my mental state is an influencing factor.

"but now that I am alone again, I feel deeply depressed and very numb" It seems inevitable that feelings like this will come up, while you are going through this. I know you are a fan of Pema Chodron. She has a lot to say about dealing with life's setbacks. I try to find time everyday for prayer, reflection and reading. It's a real refuge for me in the storms life sends us.

I'm glad you are going to tell a good friend about your cancer. I think it will be a good thing for both of you.

Flower, "For a time I felt as if I was responsible and to blame for my health issues and that had far reaching and negative consequences for me. I think it because of reading ideas that put forth that if I had negative thoughts that they would somehow manifest themselves in the form of disease.." This is certainly a pitfall of being told our thinking can make us sick. For me, I guess it's like finding out my diet is making me sick. I can feel like I'm to blame for getting sick, which is a downer, on the other hand, if it's true, and I learn how to change my diet, then maybe I can be healthier. I feel the same way about some of my past ways of thinking. When I was younger, I was a very angry person, I also had a lot of back pain for which I had two painful back surgeries. To me, I've felt the two were connected. I've consciously worked to really get past my anger, not just stuff it somewhere, or pretend it doesn't exist, but to move past it, so that it doesn't dominate my life and my health. I can still get angry today, but I am much better about processing it and moving on. And I have less back pain than I have had in 30 years.

There's an analogy about anger that really rings true for me. If we are traveling on foot and come to a river with no bridge, a boat comes in very handy to cross the river. It's dangerous to jump out of the boat, before we are across the river; however, once on the other side, carrying the boat with us is huge burden. This is the way my anger has been for me. It helped me get away from people that were bad for me, but once I got away from them, I kept carrying the anger with me. Then my anger was a burden. What I've learned from all this is that it's OK for me to be angry, but not any longer than I need to be.

You've mentioned a couple of times that you really like survival books. Have you read, "Man's Search for Meaning", by Viktor Frankl? He's a Jew who survived the Nazi concentration camps and went on to become a notable psychiatrist and author. He has some interesting things to say about his experience.

"You both are a real comfort to me, and I hope that I am for you as well and I'm glad that you both tolerate me protesting the herd." Thank you, and you are. Tolerating makes it sound like something unpleasant, it's not. You have a lot to deal with, I think you are doing what you need to do to deal with your situation. I'm glad we connected here.

Anyway, that's all for now. Tomorrow is another ski day with some buddies :-) Peace.

Dave

Hello Dave & Sage,

"This is certainly a pitfall of being told our thinking can make us sick. For me, I guess it's like finding out my diet is making me sick. I can feel like I'm to blame for getting sick, which is a downer, on the other hand, if it's true, and I learn how to change my diet, then maybe I can be healthier."

I understand the diet analogy; however people can eat a balanced and healthy diet and still suffer from illness, because there is a strong genetic component as well. When I wrote my post, I was thinking about past articles and books that I've read, promoted by the alternative health followers, when I was researching my own health issues. I put time and money into this despite already living a healthy lifestyle (not a perfect lifestyle). This didn't help me and eventually increased my pain and symptoms and negatively impacted the quality of my life. It created more physical pain for me which also impacted my emotions and placed me at risk for other problems. My health issues escalated which pushed my decision for surgery as being the only choice. My doctor/surgeon assured me that it was nothing I did or didn't do as to why I had this health issue. Her empathetic and professional approach helped to ease my spirit and lifted a heavy burden off my shoulders, of feeling that I was somehow responsible for my health issues. She also reassured me, by telling me that she would take good care of me. I think she recognized my fear and instead of responding in a caustic, condescending and dismissive way, which is what I'm used too, she responded with empathy and kindness. She also behaved in another way, which Ive also seldom experienced; she chose to connect with me as a human being. Somehow the subject of traveling in Italy came up and we found a mutual appreciation of the art and the landscape. At one point she acknowledged that she felt that I may have a greater appreciation of it due to my background. I dont recall her exact words to me, but the point is that she was actually appreciating something about me and not feeling the need to condescend or put me down or engage in competitive one-upitis and my heart was so hungry for someone to just appreciate me as I am. She was obviously a very secure person and I cherished the moment, because they are so few and far between. After they started sedating and prepping me for surgery, my husband told me that when she arrived at the hospital I reached out my arms and hugged her. I know that morning I was the terrified little girl againalways frightened and disappointed, trying desperately to be strong and to believe that I could trust her or anyone to actually take care of me and to follow through. She also gave me just enough of her own experience to connect, but not so much as to make it all about her and overwhelm me with her issues. (Im very used to that as well.) She offered the perfect balance of empathy and professionalism. I had doubt, but it was mitigated by her responses to me. I cant say that I honestly believed 100 % in the outcome, as trust is a very hard thing for me to muster, given my experiences. Yet, there was something reassuring about her and I know in that moment I was comforted by her presence and believed that she actually cared about the outcome and other people.

I was going to make some other points, but somehow got off on a tangent here and thinking of all of this has me crying this morning, because I felt so alone in all of this. My husband was there physically, but emotionally he was distant as I think his focus was on his mother, trying to get his needs met and her constant health issues and all of the constant drama surrounding his selfish family.

As for my family, I never even called or told my mother, because she was always responding in an inappropriate way and everything was all about her. Eventually, I wrote her, but I just didnt want to deal with her and her crazy-making behavior, because her mental health was declining and it was all so draining having to cope and deal with her. There was just never any peace of mind. About 7 months prior to the surgery is when she was institutionalized. I was tired of the constant focus always being on her, or my husband's mother and family.

I cant even talk about any of that right now, because just thinking about it makes me want to sob uncontrollably as I am while I write this. It was so overwhelming to have to cope with all of it. I do know that health situations are individual and ultimately we have to sort through it all and make choices for what makes sense to us.

I think Ive written enough for today. I hope you are off having a nice time with your friendsIts interesting that you bring up the word tolerate. I guess that is how Ive always felt about my family that theyve always responded to me or my being honest about my feelings as if they were having to tolerate methat caring about me or responding to the honest expression of my emotions was an inconvenience, because its not all about them. I often feel that way about my husband as well, because of how he responds and acts to my distress or hurt. He can listen to acquaintances talk all about themselves, but he doesnt see how neglectful he behaves to his own wife, but then that is a learned response from dealing with his narcissistic family as everything is all about them. To feel as if one is an inconvenience is just a horrible way to experience a relationship.

I will write more later and thank you for listening.

Flower

Hi Flower, Dave,
Thanks for your support and insight. I am feeling much more at peace. Yes, distractions do help! I need to get more physically active, as it has been cold here and with the bout of depression I just have been very sedentary which is not good, any way you look at it. You are right flower about good days and bad days. I think that applies to alot of different things, including dealing with the estrangement from our parents. I am pretty sure negative thinking and stress can cause physical ailments, I believe that. Major internalization of trauma must also come out in some sort of physical form as well. I find it amazing to think about, it is interesting. But a person can get caught in a viscious cycle of blaming themselves, causing more regret, stress, guilt and subsequently causing more disease. Yes, nobody is perfect, that is for sure. I think forgiving oneself for not being perfect, and being understanding with your own self is important. ie not beating yourself up.

Balance has always been hard for me to achieve as I have always been rather 'extreme', all or nothing sort of attitude. But I am getting better and realize the importance of balance more than I ever have in my life. Still struggle with that though.

Flower, Good point about not dismissing your emotions or fears. That is important, I agree. It is expected for people to be 'strong' and rational when they find out something is wrong with them. But the initial shock is emotional.

I guess I have struggled with depression most of my life, since I was a kid, on and off, and I feel finding out about this medical condition, perhaps in conjuction with all that happened with my parents, has triggered the depression again. It swallowed me for a few days, but I am feeling better. I have unfortunately been in this state of mind before. It is scary, and I feel helpless and like my world is going to end.

I know this procedure is relatively minor in the big picture of things. Yes, a concern, but not something to get so frantic about. Plus the situation with my parents is something that needed to be done. It was for the best and I am convinced of that. I am OK with grieving the 'loss' of the relationship with them, but for me to go into a tailspin where I am so depressed I can hardly function makes me angry. I resent it, and it is so frustrating.

And those are really the only two problems I have. Lucky me, because I should be grateful for that. I feel flakey and shallow sometimes, because I don't have any problems, I have a good life, a very good life, great husband, friends, with very little day to day stress and alot of freedom. Business is going well, I have everything I could ever want. Why can't I just be happy right now, and cope with these little problems that pop up? Yet how can I get so deeply depressed!? This has happened before where a small worry will trigger me, set me off into a serious depression. It is hard to understand. Maybe there is no reason.

I refuse to try any further medication, as I have tried different meds over the years and they made me feel worse. I am concentrating on myself spiritually, and I am hoping it will lift me above all this and be able to see and appreciate all I have. Gratitude, so important to me, but seems to have fallen by the wayside lately. And physically, I could take better care of myself via food and exercise. I think that will help alot too if I could just get motivated!! Another viscious circle this depression. I have started another Pema Chodron book this week, one I have read before: "Comfortable with Uncertainty."

Dave, I am glad your back pain has subsided!! Wow, the power of the mind, it always amazes me. I wonder what Louise Hays says about back pain??

I really like the anger analogy, with the boat. That is great..! So true.

I have read,7 "Man's Search for Meaning", by Viktor Frankl, quite a long time ago. I am going to have to re-read that one, it is very good.

Flower, Very true about the genetic factor. And I think that while the mind plays a big role in how our bodies react, and can manifest some conditions....I do also believe that disease can just happen sometimes too,it can be in our DNA, and no matter what we do or think, it occurs. The mind is a facinating thing. I think most doctors don't support the mind/body connection very much.

So glad you got such a good doctor. That is rare. Sorry you are having a rough day dealing with everything. I know it is overwhelming. You are right, health situations are very individual, it is hard to make any sense of them. But accepting they are there, getting past them, and moving on is what we have to do. I have felt like an inconvenience in my family for most of my life. It is not a good feeling. Funny, I was just thinking of that, about how my family has 'tolerated' me for most of my life, how they judged me, and now they must be happy to not have to tolerate me anymore. I strongly feel they must be relieved. So that is good, because you know what? I am relieved that I don't have to tolerate them anymore either. So it is a win-win situation in a way. Unfortunate we could not come to common ground, but right now, things are as they should be.

Take good care of yourselves,
Sage

Hi Flower & Sage,

Flower, "...people can eat a balanced and healthy diet and still suffer from illness, because there is a strong genetic component as well." I agree. Sometimes we just get sick. I'm glad you found a good doctor who could help heal you. It sounds like some part of that healing was just finding someone who cared about you.

"..a person can get caught in a vicious cycle of blaming themselves, causing more regret, stress, guilt and subsequently causing more disease. Yes, nobody is perfect, that is for sure. I think forgiving oneself for not being perfect, and being understanding with your own self is important. ie not beating yourself up." So very true. When we dig ourselves into a hole, we just need to stop digging, don't we? I know I've gotten caught in these negative, downward spirals. I'm better at catching these before they get out of hand. Cultivating my spirituality has been very helpful in this regard. It has helped me learn to be more gentle and forgiving towards myself, and more grateful for what is good in my life. When I can be this way with myself, it naturally flows into my interactions with others. This is how upward, positive spirals start for me.

"I guess I have struggled with depression most of my life ... It is scary, and I feel helpless and like my world is going to end." I think one of my biggest fears is that some how I will end up back being that depressed, alone, hurting, unloved little boy I once was, who lived like that for years, not knowing it would ever end." Rationally, I know this is not possible. But on an emotional level this is a terrifying fear. When something in the present really freaks me out, often it is something that has triggered this fear. I'm better at recognizing and dealing with this than I have been in the past. Thank goodness.

Anyway, life is very good. :-) I hope you both enjoy your weekend! Peace.

Dave

Hello Dave & Sage,

Dave, "I'm glad you found a good doctor who could help heal you. It sounds like some part of that healing was just finding someone who cared about you." Yes, I think this is true. I didn't have such good experiences with previous doctor's, but she offered a good balance of professionalism and empathy--qualities I find sadly remiss with many people in general. It's very hard for me to place my trust in anyone, because of the abuse I've suffered at the hands of people who have demonstrated and proved that they were untrustworthy. And sadly these people were in positions of authority.

Dave, I'm glad that you are having less back pain. I can't imagine enduring two painful back surgeries. I have back issues too, but that stems from injuries, which I'm working on. I think the body/mind connection has a lot of merit and I don't discount it. I've just met people in healthcare who I feel offer it up as a reason too soon, when treatment has not produced immediate results, or in more difficult cases when results take longer. I think it insurance driven and I disagree with treating people like they are statistics. There is some merit in knowing statistics, but outcomes don't always follow linear paths.

I don't believe my back issues are connected with my emotional state, although I do not discount that physical pain can affect one's emotions. I recall a time when I was showering and unhappy thoughts of a supervisor obtruded during what was usually a very pleasant experience for me. I noted the experience and wondered why I would be thinking about the idiot during an activity that I usually enjoy. Thoughts about his behaviors made me react with anger and agitation, which I later discussed with my therapist. It all boiled down to the physical response I had to drinking coffee on an empty stomach(I'm sensitive to caffeine), which produced a highly agitated and angry state, which in turn had triggered unpleasant memories of the jerk and the very similar unpleasant emotional responses I recalled at having to cope with the behaviors of this clown.

My husband's cousin opted to NOT undergo chemo when she was diagnosed with cancer. I don't know why. She was involved with selling vitamins and herbal treatments and so instead attempted to treat her illness with alternative health remedies and vitamins. Her cancer became worse and she died. I don't know how advanced her cancer was when she finally sought treatment. Her family blamed her doctors and also her ex-husband, who they claimed murdered her (long bizzare story).

During this time I worked for a woman who had also been diagnosed with breast cancer. Her response was different as she decided to opt for chemo. Despite the chemo her cancer returned and she eventually had a masectomy. She told me that she didn't mess around with her health, but sadly she met a lot of women who ignored their symptoms and were in denial about their health. We had these discussions when I told her about my husband's cousin and how I didn't understand why she wasn't more aggressive about her treatment. About a month or longer before my husband's cousin died, her step-mother wrote an email to some of the family member's stating that she was finally coming to terms with her illness and basically no longer in denial, but it was already too late. She really believed in vitamins and other therapies and positive thoughts to cure her cancer.

I don't know why so many people refuse to listen to their doctors or even bother to avail themselves of preventative screenings. I've even had people try to label me as a hypocondriac simply because I go in for routine screenings. This is one reason why I have a hard time with belief systems that suggest that having negative thoughts are responsible for health issues. They can make it sound like they are blaming people for creating health problems such as cancer, which undermines the strong genetic link. As usual an idea gets taken to extreme and I can't think of anything more cruel than to suggest that someone is responsible for their illness. I get very irritated too at the industries that promote some of this type of thinking, such as the alternative healthcare industry or vitamin pushers, who don't suffer pangs of conscience at manipulating people's vulnerabilitis and insecurities to advance their own agendas. I hear it all the time.

I've also noticed that people who routinely go through life in denial generally speaking also never take responsibility for their lives and blame others for unhappy outcomes. My MIL was like this, as is his entire family and so is my own mother. I find these behaviors quite nut-inducing and don't respect it.

I liked the anger analogy. I haven't read the book by Viktor Frankl. My therapist mentioned it and thank you for bringing it up. The book I was thinking of offered hard science and how your brain reacts--working memory and primary and secondary emotions in survival situations. It was combined with some epic survival stories. It's hard to explain...I found it very helpful, validating and supportive. I usually always listen to my gut instincts as they are good. I would rather be wrong, than wind up being hurt by someone else's stupidity. Besides, it's the people that I've been around--my family, co-workers and associations who routinely stick-their-heads-in-the-sand and don't want to listen. I've been around that a lot and their reasons for not listening have included judgments about my being "too sensitive", while at the same time advancing their own thoughtless agendas. It is one contributing reason as to why I have a hard time trusting people and why I don't respect them either. Denial is a huge problem and that is another reason why I fear the herd as their consistent stupidity places others at risk. The only way to combat such foolishness is to take care of oneself as the idiotic herd is resistant to learning..of course that is the cynic in me, but it comes from experience. Well, I've written enough for today...

I hope you are both enjoying your weekend.

Flower

Hi Sage,

I'm glad that you are feeling more at peace. I know physical activity helps regulate my moods and I'm less prone to depressive episodes when I'm active, especially when I can get outdoors, but I also know how challenging it can be to get exercise when it is cold outside too. More sunlight helps me too.

"I am pretty sure negative thinking and stress can cause physical ailments, I believe that." Well, it sure doesn't help and depression can create greater problems healthwise too. One suffers from fatigue more easily and it's difficult to get motivated and people are less likely to take care of themselves.

"I think forgiving oneself for not being perfect, and being understanding with your own self is important. ie not beating yourself up." I agree.
"Balance has always been hard for me to achieve as I have always been rather 'extreme', all or nothing sort of attitude." I still struggle with achieving balance too, although I continue to strive for it, because I feel healthier as a result.

Sage, the thing about fear is that it is just an emotion. Fear can actually be good. Too much fear is not. I too, have struggled with bouts of depression and sometimes these were very serious. You lose your sense of time and it often feels like you've been swallowed whole. Yes, I found it scary too, often terrifying, but I'm better at recognizing the signs too and I know the ropes, so I've also become better at dealing with it too.

I believe that you will persevere and come through this. I think it a good sign that you are concentrating on yourself spiritually. And I agree that gratitude is important. It gives one perspective and an entirely different focus. It is actually what many survivors do--they find wealth and happiness in the smallest things.

Sage, "So glad you got such a good doctor. That is rare. Sorry you are having a rough day dealing with everything. I know it is overwhelming." Thank you...I appreciate your compassion. I hope you are doing okay and had a nice weekend. I will write more later...Take care...

Flower

Hi Dave, Flower,

I have a cold, so my mind of feeling a little fuzzy today!

I have not been ill like this, with a sore throat, for a very long time. I think it was likely brought on by the depression, which in turn has had me neglecting my eating healthy. I rarely get sick.

Overall, I am doing better though, in a fairly good state of mind. Feel like life completely stopped for a week or so, but is back again, moving forward. I am in the process of 'stopping the digging', putting the shovel back in the shed!!! lol ;)

Yes Dave, I agree that being able to catch what is happening is key. It comes down to self-awareness, and catching the downward spiral before it does get completely out of control.

I have been having strange dreams again. I dreamt my father called me (which has only probably happened twice my entire life). I was sort of glad, hopeful...but he didn't say much (which is always the case)...he kept carrying on a conversation with my brother who was at their house. I could over hear their conversation, and my brother was being demanding and rude. Weird. Anyways, once again, the anxiety runs deep.

I have the same fear, of being alone, so sad, and unable to snap out of the downward spiral. At times I feel 'this is it, I am really losing it this time.' I really find that disturbing. But, I never have completely 'lost it'. It always passes, and I always get better. So I try to remind myself of that. It is an irrational fear, but I do understand how certain circumstances do trigger those feelings. It is a relief to 'recognize' those triggers, that helps alot in dealing with them and knowing 'why' the feelings emerge. Rather than just dealing with blind emotions.

Flower, I think it is a very individual thing for each person, and each specific illness and each person's own belief systems. Some people are strictly about science, others religion/thoughts. And then there are those of us who are somewhere in the middle. Positive thoughts can only help, because it takes the body out of a really high state of stress - but there is a fine line. A person has to utilize technology as well. The vitamin/supplement industry is huge, it is sad that people get sucked into it and misled. Alot of times this borders on the whole 'magical thinking' issue we talked about before. There is alot of fraud going on, no doubt about that.

True, alot of people slip into denial, they just don't want to deal with their health. I know alot of people who don't go for routine screenings. I believe it is fear. I too go for regular check-ups.

On the other hand, the medical system itself is somewhat crooked too. The cost of medication, over perscription, fear mongering and the hideously high cost to treat cancer!! Tens of thousands of dollars...I don't know how many fundraisers I have been to in the last couple years, just so people can pay for their treatments. And unfortunately, it did not buy them much more time. Guess it boils down to the individual, we have to find the right combination - which is always a calculated risk to some degree!

Denile is a funny thing, not funny ha ha, but strange. I know because I do believe I was in total denile about what was going on with me and my parents. It is a way of self preservation, when things are too hurtful to face. But the fact is, when you do finally face it after being in denile, it is alot worse. I like to think I have for the most part been a realist, for most of my life. And now, more than ever.

Thanks for your kind words Flower. Yes, being active helps, but it is like climbing Mt. Everest when I am down. Ridiculous, and makes me so angry I cannot even describe it. It is like I am paralyzed. Yes, it is all about balance, isn't it?

"You lose your sense of time and it often feels like you've been swallowed whole." Yes, it feels like that. I agree, as I said above, recognizing the signs, self-awareness, and being able to somewhat control it. Feel it, but not let it take over entirely. Same thing with all the emotion around our problems with our parents - feel it, but don't let it interfere with day to day living and happiness.

Thanks for being here! :)
Sage

Hi Flower & Sage,

Flower, "My husband's cousin opted to NOT undergo chemo when she was diagnosed with cancer." This seems very foolish to me. While I believe our emotions and thoughts can affect our health, I have no problem seeking the best medical procedures available to restore my health. I still pay attention to my thoughts and emotions as well. One thing that can push my buttons are the Christian Scientists who let their children die because they refuse to give them antibiotics. Unfortunately this happens.

Myself, I get regular physicals and try to take good care of myself, physically, mentally and spiritually. I'm not always successful, but I try. I really want to live a long, active, and rewarding life.

Sage, Sorry you got a cold. I rarely get colds either, but getting depressed can make me more susceptible too.

I don't know much about treating cervical cancer. What do you have to go through now? How long before you would know whether or not the treatment worked?

Anyway, I need to get busy and work on my taxes, not my favorite thing, but it feels good when it's done. Take care. Peace.

Dave

Hey Dave,

Ya, the depression does wear me down mentally as well as physically. I really notice it in the way I look...just looking in the mirror, I look tired and drained. Not like my usual self.

Now I am just waiting for a date to go into the hospital, and they will do a procedure to remove the cancerous cells. It is an outpatient procedure, so I am just in for a few hours. They send the cells off for further testing, and then I wait. Not sure how long, probably a few weeks I am guessing. Then I have to just keep getting re-tested every few months to make sure they got it all or that it didn't reoccur. I am feeling better about the whole situation now. I think it will be OK. I am glad I do get physicals regularly so things like this can be caught before it is too late.

I am caring for myself this week, and am going to keep myself 'up'. Catching up on some reading. I just can't get so down anymore, it kills me. It is up to me to take care of myself, nobody else. I have to really step up and remind myself of that.

Have fun with the taxes Dave, I know, it is a task I just dread! It is a big relief when it is done!! :) I feel sick about my rrsp's this year, lost so much money. Ah well, the thing with money is you can always get more. lol

Sage

Best wishes Sage... I'll be thinking of you :)

Hi Sage & Dave,

"Yes Dave, I agree that being able to catch what is happening is key. It comes down to self-awareness, and catching the downward spiral before it does get completely out of control."

I think Ive learned to do this fairly well now as I notice the signs. My doctor was ready to write me a prescription for depression meds when I told him that I didnt want it. I said that I knew the difference between when I was really starting to go down with it and what I wanted from him was to know that he would write me a prescription if I needed it. I told him just knowing that he would do that would offer me comfort and relief. At that time everything was in a downward spiral. I informed him of my plans to get into counseling as well. His response was to say, "Okay, youre the boss." He also replied, "Well, trust you, since youve been through this before, to know the signs."

And you know it did give me comfort to know he would be there to at least provide me with meds, should I need them. It also gave me comfort that he didnt try to control me, or condescend to me, but he did listen. He left the decision and choice up to me, and I was comforted that he would be there, should I need him and the fact that he treated my wishes with respect and didnt talk down to me or argue with me, or try to persuade me to do something that I didnt want to do felt good to me. It really felt like a first. Ive kept him as one of my doctors through everything. And he said all of this after watching me breaking down into a flood of tears describing the stress of dealing with my mother during the apex of that long nightmare prior to her being institutionalized. Since Ive been in counseling I havent the need for meds, because I can talk to someone about what is troubling without hearing insane clichés back or in one way or another being told in some way to keep quiet, keep it all in and shut up. Being able to talk through situations is very healing for me and this has really been missing in my life because most people that Ive metare oblivious and it is all about them and they want you to listen to them. You can tell a lot of people are not listening and distracted or they cant pay attention unless its about what they want to talk about. They want you to hurry through, so they can make it all about their unresolved issues.

"I have been having strange dreams again. I dreamt my father called me (which has only probably happened twice my entire life). I was sort of glad, hopeful...but he didn't say much (which is always the case)...he kept carrying on a conversation with my brother who was at their house. I could over hear their conversation, and my brother was being demanding and rude. Weird. Anyways, once again, the anxiety runs deep."

Ive been having dreams too. Ive been reading some of our postings to my therapist as it really brings up a lot of emotions for me. Some of it was placed on the backburner while I dealt with my health issues (and still do but it is getting better). It was just overwhelming dealing with it all. She feels this is good for me as I said previously.

"I have the same fear, of being alone, so sad, and unable to snap out of the downward spiral." I do too, although I know I can get out of it and so I feel much stronger in this regard than I used too. But sometimes I also get terrified that I may become like my mother, and that thought truly horrifies me. I know that I havent brought that up here yet, because I think the hurt stills runs too deep to talk about itand it has to be one heartache at a time.

I also welcome being alone too, because I feel no one can impose on me then with their constant no win situations (my mother). I know that I have an addictive personality as well, but being around these types of people (its all about me) makes me feel like Id like to drink or do whatever I can to numb my emotions to deal with them and just get through it. Now how sad is that.

"It is an irrational fear, but I do understand how certain circumstances do trigger those feelings. It is a relief to 'recognize' those triggers, that helps a lot in dealing with them and knowing 'why' the feelings emerge. Rather than just dealing with blind emotions." Well said, and I agree with this.

Sage I basically agree with what you said here, "Flower, I think it is a very individual thing for each person, and each specific illness and each person's own belief systems." Im all for doing what people can do for themselves for alleviating stress. The situation with my husbands cousin was very disturbing. Although, I do not know how advanced her cancer was before she sought treatment, I do know that she was hospitalized and she opted not to undergo treatment for vitamins and herb supplements. I would not have made the same choice. I dont believe her ex-husband murdered her, as is rumored by some of her relatives as insidious an allegation as that was. No, I think her denial and probably magical thinking made her situation worse and it lead to her death.

"True, a lot of people slip into denial; they just don't want to deal with their health. I know a lot of people who don't go for routine screenings. I believe it is fear." Yes, probably, although I doubt they would admit that to themselves or anyone else. I find it curious though, because some people have no problems in taking risks with their own health and the life and health of others when they drink and drive, or take drugs, or engage in other high risk behaviors, yet they are afraid to see the doctor and get regular health checkups? They complain about the cost, but they have no trouble with shopping therapy, purchasing beyond their means therapy and all other forms of high stress denial living, to ward off their emotions and any sort of honest introspection about their behaviors. And ultimately some pay a price, although health wise, some people can still get sick no matter what. Im thinking of my mother-in-law nowIve watched enough damage spreading to others with this type of thinking and it is painful.

"Thanks for your kind words Flower. Yes, being active helps, but it is like climbing Mt. Everest when I am down." Yes, I know, but you watch yourself emotionally too. I know for me not having the stamina to move day after day was a sign for me. If it is only occasionally we all have those days, but if it starts to creep in day after day I think that a sign. I prefer not taking meds too, but Im not against them as they helped me, so I know that feeling well. During some of my bouts of depression, which were quite serious, it was really the only way to get me out, so I am thankful for that.

You keep taking care of yourselfboth of you.

Flower

Hi Dave,

Flower, "My husband's cousin opted to NOT undergo chemo when she was diagnosed with cancer." This seems very foolish to me." I agree. I don't know why, but it's a relief to have someone else agree with me about it. It just actually feels good to be able to talk about it.

The whole situation led to a very tragic outcome. She had seven children. There was a lot of poor communication around it too and I don't think it even clear to my husband what happened, but he did say that some members of her family blamed her ex-husband alleging that he murdered her. That is very typical of his family and relatives--lots of secrets and skeletons in the closet and no real open or honest communication and then blaming others. And what a horrible rumor to have circulating in a family.

If you try to get clarification they react as if you've offended them and interpret it as a sign of disloyalty. They made it clear that I was an outsider, so I'm certain that they would see my desiring clarification as intrusive and also react with hostility and resentment. It's a very oppressive family dynamic. I'm certain you both could understand why I feel as I do. I know there was tension and problems in the family and with the in-laws and I think they needed to blame someone. Yet he did tell me that he had also heard that she refused chemo and set on a course of vitamins and herbs for treatment which she referred to as healing. It feels like a relief to talk about all of this though. In a way, I feel like I'm letting out poison--theirs.

The whole situation was biazzare. The story that he heard was that one of her doctors allegedly had told her that she had enough lead in her to kill her. They blame her ex for somehow poisoning her with lead. They believe that he accomplished this by lacing her vitamins. They also believe that it compromised her immune system and that eventually lead to her getting breast cancer and that is why they blame him for her death. These are the incredeulous rumors that have spread around the issue. I found it and still find it disturbing.

I don't know what my MIL died from either. I think I know, but his sister told him that she died from some type of blood toxin caused from the medications that she took while in the hospital. Apparently he is willing to believe this or just not deal with it, which I think more his problems. His sister is not a doctor or a nurse. She does not have a medical background. She gives colonics and takes seminars in blood chemistry, without a science or medical background. She is very good at manipulating people and comes off as believable to those who want to believe her. They think she is charming and sweet. I've always seen another side to her.

"While I believe our emotions and thoughts can affect our health, I have no problem seeking the best medical procedures available to restore my health. I still pay attention to my thoughts and emotions as well. One thing that can push my buttons are the Christian Scientists who let their children die because they refuse to give them antibiotics. Unfortunately this happens." I agree here too. I as well pay attention to my thoughts and emotions as I think it important. Balance is key. I just don't like the magical thinking which we've previously discussed. I've met too many people who exhibit extreme behaviors and I have a hard time coping with it. It appears that common sense is not all that common.

When I first met my husband he wanted me to accompany him to visit his aunt and uncle, their family who had rented a cabin in the mountains. His father and grandmother were also there. I was getting over a cold and still had a cough and rather than demonstrate a caring attitude towards me, they too, acted like I inconvenienced them with my presence. I recall my husband telling me that his father judged me as a hypocondriac merely because I had a cold. Good grief all these people ever did was talk about themselves and they had zero empathy towards others. I think they resented me from the very start and just were looking for any reason they could to dislike me to justify their ugly behaviors towards me. Really they were the most unpleasant, selfish, and cruel people, but they sure knew how to put on a phoney face towards others and act charming.

"Myself, I get regular physicals and try to take good care of myself, physically, mentally and spiritually. I'm not always successful, but I try. I really want to live a long, active, and rewarding life." Me too, and I'm glad to hear that you do take care of yourself.

I need to work on my taxes too. I say that every year and then procrastinate, because it's just no fun. Take care,

Flower

Silver, Good to see you here, and thanks for the thoughts and wonderful pic - especially on the stormy cold day we are having here today! I am doing fine. :)

Flower, Yes, people make their own decisions regarding their health, and sometimes that may even lead to their own demise. Unfortunate, but that is life - a series of decisions, right? Really, who know what the right decision is? Perhaps with medical treatment she would have extended her life for a short time but still not survived for long, or maybe it would have cured her and she would have lived to 100. Nobody knows. I personally don't believe in the whole Scientology thing. Particularly when dealing with children.

With children, I think every form of science and technology should be used in order to keep them alive at any cost! I don't agree with the Scientologists either. Kids don't have the capacity to make their own decisions with their health. When they are adults, they can make their own decisions regarding religion and health and whether they want medical treatment or not.

I agree with making your own decisions re: health, I find my doctor is the same way, and treated the depression meds the same way. He only recommended, and left it up to me to decide what was best for ME. I am not going to consider taking meds anymore, they do not work for me, I have tried them enough to know that. He is fine with that, he does not criticize me. I think the big poison in my life was my parents, and now that I have truly faced that, made some decisions, I will heal. I have thought about it alot (far too much probably). I am not against meds. For some people they work. And I think for some people with a chemical imbalance the meds correct that imabalance and help them immensely. I took them in the past, and for short periods, I think they did help me too. Perhaps even saved my life.

Sounds like we all take care of ourselves, and that is good considering we were not taken very good care of when we were kids and did not learn the importance of many crucial core 'values'. I am glad we could gain the self awareness, and empathy that we did not learn growing up. I don't think I had a good foundation of basic morals. Only observed my parents who were flakey, not very kind, and cold. I remember feeling torn over things like the treatment of animals, I felt sorry for animals, and people, who were hurting... and I noticed they never felt that way, or reacted.

I remember my aunt being sick, and my mother never going to visit her even though she was just a few hours away. And she had to time to go. She avoided it, as she avoided alot of things. Just went on with her merry life like nothing was wrong. My aunt died, she never did see her before she died. She very easily could have gone, as she was close to her, they were also had a very close relationship their whole lives, she was her sister. I find that so bizzare. She dumped her sister as soon as she got sick. I know this sounds harsh, but I can't see it in any other way. She could not get past her own 'self' to reach out to her own sister when she was in need. I must say, it is typical of her. This leads me to believe there is something deeply deranged in her mentally and I never saw it quite as clearly as I should have. Is there any excuse for this lack of empathy? I don't know.

My mother just won't deal with anything emotional. She doesn't even try. I don't believe she, or anyone 'can't' deal with something like this. It is a decision. You make the decision to show you care for someone, or you avoid them. I know it is not easy to deal with the emotions surrounding the whole situation when someone close to you is dying, and it is not easy to go to the hospital to see them - but at some point, expeically if it is someone very very close to you, you MUST. How can you not? I just can't fathom that. She just let her die, and then attended the funeral and thought she did her part. I remember her saying, there was nothing she could do, so I didn't go and see her in the hospital. Wow, that blows my mind when I think about it now. I remember stifling alot, holding back, retreating to my room to cry. Not healthy.

Flower, I have a fear of becoming like my mother too. I see little glimpses of that sometimes and it stops me in my tracks. I know inside that I am not like her though and have made a conscience effort to not be like her. I can express my feelings, I care, I have empathy for others, I have my own opinions and am not afraid to stand behind them and speak up, and I can show and receive love. These are things she didn't do, and didn't bother to try to do. It would be different if she made an effort, but she never did. I never saw it - and believe me, I looked for some sign of her caring. It is too bad, but she made her decisions I guess has written me off - just as I have written her off. And that is OK. At least I tried, I feel that I did make an honest effort.

Yes, tax time. Ours are at the accountant's office, and it always seems to be a bit of a surprise every single year, I never know how it will pan out. I just dread dealing with it!

Hope everyone is well today...

Sage

Hi Sage & Dave,

Eckhart Tolle was on a PBS program the other night. It was on late, so I only watched a small part of it. At least in that section I was in agreement with his basic opinion about awareness--what he called being in the NOW. I've always called that being emotionally present and I probably read that somewhere and agreed with it.

During his presentation, he used an example of a hypothetical couple (complainers) who immediately upon coming into a place started whining and complaining and detailing about what is wrong with whatever--food, space, just whatever and then how to fix it, etc. My older sister is a fixer, as was my mother (but to a lesser degree) and I was their science project, placed under their imposed microscopic scrutinty. Oh, what fun that was! NOT! It was horrible always being treated as if there was something wrong with me that needed fixing or correcting. If they approved of me then I got a scrap of love. I was only loved for how I made them feel, not for myself. I truly hated them for that, and it undermined my self-esteem. My sister to this day remains condescending and very sarcastic. I know it is a cover for her low-self esteem and anger, which she refuses to own or take responsibility for. Still it was very erosive to our relationship and created a lot of distance. She even told me that she didn't approve of the things that I did, which I found very bizzare given that I had merely told her of my desire to work for myself and some dreams and goals that I had to pursue writing. She would have offered approval if I had taken her advice (which was unsolicited) and lived my life according to what she thought I should do and how I should behave. She also waits for every opportunity to remind me of my failures, never missing the golden opportunity to tell me how I've messed up (one cannot be honest about mistakes)...etc. Then she remains clueless as to why we are not close.

One of the last times I saw my therapist she stated that I've estranged myself as a means of protecting myself from the emotional assaults of my family. I'm protecting myself from their destructive aggression and of course they don't take responsibility for anything. Their response would be to always say that they didn't "intend" to hurt me, etc. That is NOT taking responsibility.

Back to Tolle and his example--I've met a lot of people (co-workers, in-laws and my husband's friends and even my husband) who complain, are very cynical or have a serious case of jealousy and onupitis. A lot of these people focus on what is trite, petty and superficial. My MIL thought she was Helen-of-Troy as does my SIL and so they would routinely criticize other women and their looks. They are extremely jealous and narcissistic, expecting everyone to focus on them like they are the center of the universe. They are examples to me of very outwardly focused people and that is a major hallmark of people who are emotionally unavailable.

I read a great book about emotional unavailability that I refer to often. The author talks about the difference between securely attached and insecurely attached babies who grow up to be children and eventually adults. It's based on attachment theory. There's a long discuss about the research and what it means, but she says that unattached people are nto present emotionally. They make promises they don't keep, and they rarely apologize. They also frequently used other people without remorse and are often characterized as cold, distant, and angry.

Securely attached adults on the other hand are able to express their emotions and seek out people who do the same. Everytime I merely tried to express my emotions in my family I was labeled as "too sensitive". They twist and turn everything around and put it all back on me, and then try to fix, control, shame, belittle and "correct" my emotions.

I'm very selective and have become increasingly more so towards who I confide in and how much emotion I am willing to demonstrate. I'm certain a lot of people would characterize me now as reserved, but why wouldn't I be after being judged as "too sensitive". One needs to feel emotionally safe with people to be honest and that will not happen when people offer judgment and don't listen.

Well, I've gotten off on another tangent here, but it feels good to write it out and get it out of my system. Thanks for listening....

Flower

Hello Sage & Flower,

It's been a busy few days. I love having two teenage boys, and they keep me very busy with lacrosse, school plays, science fair, piano lessons, track, wind symphony, indoor-drumline, and boy scouts. I also managed to almost finish my taxes. :-)

Sage, I hope you are doing better with your depression. Dealing with depression seems to be an ongoing theme in my life. And one that seems to be improving with time. Seeing the progress over the years has been encouraging. It helps me believe I'm going in the right direction.

"I have a fear of becoming like my mother too." One of the things I've had to learn to accept is that while I am very different from my parents, some of the things I dislike about them the most, I can see coming up in me. I'm aware of this, and when it happens I'm pretty good at cutting it off. It seems over time that the less anger they can provoke in me, and the more indifference I feel towards them, the less of a problem this is for me.

Flower, it sounds like your in-laws are seriously delusional. It's a good thing you have an awareness of what they are up to so that you don't get caught up in their unhealthy and destructive ways. My experience with people like this is that they are toxic to everything they touch. I do everything I can to avoid people like this.

"One of the last times I saw my therapist she stated that I've estranged myself as a means of protecting myself from the emotional assaults of my family." That pretty much sums up my estrangement from my family. Self protection. The irony of all this is that if they understood how harmful they are to me, we probably wouldn't have this problem. Its so sad we have to protect ourselves from the very people who should have been protecting us. So sad. But there is life after wacko parents. We can heal our broken hearts. Thank goodness. :-)

That's all for now. Peace.

Dave

Hi Sage & Dave,

I actually met a friend today for breakfast and a walk. Then she asked me to help her write her senator. It was a nice change of pace for me and this friend is a better communicator and doesn't overwhelm me with constant personal issues and problems, nor is it always about her. I appreciated that. It helps me to feel that there is some measure of balance and that it isn't a one-sided relationship. I would have been bettered served if I could have found more empathetic and less judgmental people in my life--someone to understand the challenges and difficulties that I've had to face. I appreciate this forum and that I've found you two....Thank you for listening. It helps me to feel less alone and less despair.

My mother has sent me several letters, which I've left unopened since last October. She sent me a birthday card, which I've left unopened. I just couldn't deal with it and have enough on my plate to contend with. Just seeing it triggers a sense of forebooding and anxiety with everything that I've had to deal with. It's sad, but any communication from her and it stirs an unpleasant reaction. I always wonder what kind of complaints she will have as her letters and communications are always focused on negativity and problems. I feel a tremendous burden having to cope with her. I opened one communication, but have left the others to deal with later. Maybe I'll open one next week. She had a birthday last week and I sent her a card, but I didn't write anything other than signing it. I will eventually write her, but I really don't say much. It breaks my heart, because she is my mother and I can't help but wish this were not so. At the same time I feel guilty, as if I'm somehow deficient for not being stronger. I think some of this has been imposed on me--really all of my life. It's hard to shake off other people's words always making me out as if I'm somehow to blame for not being better able to cope with her constant negativity. I'd prefer not to use avoidance and distance as a coping mechanism, but you cannot change someone else, and if they don't listen what other alternatives does one have. Relationships are a two-way street. It's not all up to one person. It's always been a no-win situation. I feel as if I've been mourning a loss forever.

Also--the other woman who has been self-absorbed, I've confronted her with a few emails to set the record straight. I was surprised, but maybe my emails have given her something to think aobut. She actually just called to thank me for making her dinner last week--some homemade soup and a dessert. People that I've known (my husband's associations and friends) don't usually do that--they are too wrapped up in themselves to demonstrate kindness, gratitude or sensitivity. None seem to know what being gracious is all about. I've had nitpicky people criticize my taking the time and effort to make them a nice meal. I think it stems from insecurity and jealousy, so I no longer extend those invitations to others. People he knows are off limits as they are far too selfish. I did make an exception this time with this woman, although I'm cautious with her as she has a lot of insecurities and tends to be judgmental and stereotypes people.

Dave, I'm glad you are enjoying time with your sons. I'm feeling happier today for being able to get out and exercise and those changes in the routine are always good for one's soul.

I'll write more later...take care everyone...

Flower

Hello,

Dave, Your sons are lucky to have such a great Dad! :) Sounds like they keep you busy with all sorts of fun stuff too! I am happy for you, for the way you are able to overcome and cope with the estrangement from your parents, your outlook is very inspiring.

Flower, I agree with what Dave said, your in-laws sound delusional. Try to limit the time you spend with them, as much as you can. I know that is not easy to do, considering they are relatives...'in-laws'. I have found too that avoiding toxic people as much as possible, or cutting them out of my life completely when possible, is the only way to avoid their affects. I don't feel bad about doing that, because I have been burned far too many times. It is self preservation.

I have found that after trying and trying different ways of coping, avoidance is sometimes the only coping mechanism that is left. It is a last resort for sure. True, relationships are two-way streets, and it is impossible to have a relationship with someone who does not realize that. Sounds like you are aware of the people who are toxic though and cautious of them. I like to give people a chance too, but my patience is quite short these days, I must admit. And life is better that way. I never used to realize how toxic some people were until after I let them hurt me. And even then, I used to blame myself. I have made alot of progress with not allowing that to happen anymore.

We have discussed this before, and I still struggle with the sense of loss myself. I think we will all be mourning the 'loss' of our parents forever. It is a strong bond that none of us really had completed properly, so it is something that will be present forever as I think it is hard-wired into us when we are born. Those feelings of loss and like something is missing. I feel it, but am not going to let it take over. I have to remind myself that is is not 'me'...when I reflect back on things that have happened over the years I know it is not 'me'. And I discuss them with my husband, and he just shakes his head, and does not see how I can blame myself. He has spent time with them, and he sees first hand how they are. For years and years I thought it was me, and that is something else I regret and resent. I don't know why I have to keep reminding myself. Someday it will sink in, and I am seeing the past more clearly now than ever. Just a habit of always blaming myself I suppose, since I was always blamed and belittled by them.

Accepting that things will not change, and that I cannot make them change, is the way to at least move towards some healing. I feel I have started to do that. Anything else I have tried has only left me feeling empty, frustrated, and depressed. I feel better with the steps I have taken in the last few months to deal with them and the emotions surrounding the whole situation.

Thanks for listening, it feels good to discuss this. You guys have helped me alot, more than you know. Just reading here, and having some 'food for thought' to ponder. To see my situation from a different angle, based on experiences from people who truly understand, has been very comforting.

Enjoy the weekend!
Sage

...This is the first year I will not send birthday or mother/father's day cards. Every year I would find it horribly difficult to shop for them, and pick out the most generic card, that wasn't too gushy, because I could not send anything like that because it was even more fake. Alot of times I would just buy blank cards and write a simple "happy xxxx day". I felt like a complete fraud, and it was upsetting to read the loving sentiments in the greeting card aisle. I felt completely obligated, and that I was in a way forced to go through the motions. I can't explain it, but it really was a stressful ordeal for me to do this. For years and years. I felt the same way recieving cards from them. I would dread opening them.

One year, the father's day card I sent must have got lost in the mail and my mother said my dad was 'wondering if I forgot about him' (whatever that means). Funny, because I had not even spoken to him for nearly a year at that point. Ridiculous. I found out that the card was not received by him months later via an email from my mother. I guess he defined our relationship by the one generic card he received from me each year?? I don't know. Because there was no relationship there to speak of. Hmmm, I wonder if I was forgotten in his mind all those times he showed up drunk on my birthday, didn't remember my birthday, or didn't show up at all on special occassions? I don't really feel I am trying to 'get back at him', get any type of revenge. I know it sounds that way. I am just tired (soooo tired) of pretending.

Just some thoughts, as Flower had brought up the subject of letters/cards.

Sage

Hello,

Flower, "My mother has sent me several letters, which I've left unopened...I feel a tremendous burden having to cope with her. She had a birthday last week and I sent her a card, but I didn't write anything other than signing it....It breaks my heart, because she is my mother and I can't help but wish this were not so. At the same time I feel guilty... I'd prefer not to use avoidance and distance as a coping mechanism, but you cannot change someone else, ...I feel as if I've been mourning a loss forever."

These are difficult and painful relationships aren't they? It's been an incredibly difficult and long process to get to the level of indifference I now feel towards my parents. Even writing that I'm indifferent towards my parents seems like I'm doing something wrong. But I'm not. They left me no other options. And it has taken a lot of mourning to get here. And I think there is more mourning to come. But with each cycle of mourning I feel a little lighter and more free from painful feelings from deep in my past. Things continue to get better. I hope you can continue to emotionally untangle yourself from the negative people around you and find a more peaceful and enjoyable life. You deserve it!!!

Sage, "Your sons are lucky to have such a great Dad!". Thanks for saying so! Through some kind of grace, I think we are given things in life that can help heal us, for me that has been my sons, and my wife. In so many ways they have saved me, and helped me become a much better person than I ever could have been on my own. And they continue to do this for me. It's so humbling.

This is the first year I will not send birthday or mother/father's day cards. Every year I would find it horribly difficult to shop for them, and pick out the most generic card, that wasn't too gushy, because I could not send anything like that because it was even more fake. ... it was upsetting to read the loving sentiments ...I felt completely obligated, I can't explain it, but it really was a stressful ordeal ...For years and years. I felt the same way receiving cards from them. I would dread opening them.

You're describing my own situation perfectly. I didn't send them anything for Christmas and no birthday, Mother's Day, Father's Day cards will be sent. I think I just sent the cards over the years to keep the peace. I think I knew how traumatic it would be to confront them, and I just never wanted to go there. Now that I've done it, and a lot of the trauma has subsided, I'm glad I did it. I feel more real.

"Accepting that things will not change, and that I cannot make them change, is the way to at least move towards some healing. I feel I have started to do that. Anything else I have tried has only left me feeling empty, frustrated, and depressed. I feel better with the steps I have taken in the last few months to deal with them and the emotions surrounding the whole situation." Well said. I feel the same way. It's taken a lot to get to this point, but it does feel better than everything else I've tried.

Thanks to you both for being there. It's been very helpful and healing this last several months to be able to talk to you about all this. Peace.

Dave

Dave,

You are right, this mourning is a process. The more I think about it, I think it will be a life long process. But as you said, it will get easier and not cut so deep in time. The worst part is over, that being cutting ties. I think that was the hardest part of the whole situation.

You said: I think I sent the cards over the years to keep the peace. I think I knew how traumatic it would be to confront them, and I just never wanted to go there. Now that I've done it, and a lot of the trauma has subsided, I'm glad I did it. I feel more real.

That is exactly the situation I felt I was in. If you are still in touch with them, even minimally, you 'have to' send the cards. It is expected, and if they are not recieved it is a big deal. And that would have just come with more judgement about what terrible children we are, or how mentally disturbed we are for not doing what is expected on those occassions.

I still feel guilty, but know deep down it is the right thing to do for my own sake. Believe me, I wish I had someone who I really did care about, and who cared about me, to send a nice card and gift to on mothers and fathers day. A real, heartfelt gift. But I do not.

I am grateful for my husband, my friends and my day-to-day life I live now. Our businesses are successful based on being upfront, fair, caring, and honest. We follow through with doing what we promise to do and we are proud of that. It is how we live our personal lives too. It is real, it is a good honest life, and there is no pretending. I do lose sight of that from time to time, especially when I start getting depressed. It is important to reflect on what we have, and not dwell only on what we don't have.

Sage

Hi Sage & Flower,

"Believe me, I wish I had someone who I really did care about, and who cared about me, to send a nice card and gift to on mothers and fathers day. A real, heartfelt gift. But I do not." I do believe you, because I feel the same way. I wish I had parents I cared about, and who cared about me. Like you, I just don't. It's sad and painful. We can mourn this, and we can feel it slowly release it's grip on us. And we can have a good life that is satisfying, and pleasing.

I read this on the following website: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

"Interaction with narcissists is confusing, even bewildering -- their reasons for what they do are not the same as normal reasons. In fact, treating them like normal people (e.g., appealing to their better nature, as in "Please have a heart," or giving them the chance to apologize and make amends) will make matters worse with a narcissist."

This has certainly been my experience with my parents. Here's another choice quote:

"They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making stuff up, or are crazy. [At this point, if you're like me, you sort of panic and want to talk to anyone who will listen about what is going on: this is a healthy reaction; it's a reality check ("who's the crazy one here?"); that you're confused by the narcissist's contrariness, that you turn to another person to help you keep your bearings, that you know something is seriously wrong and worry that it might be you are all signs that you are not a narcissist]."

I don't think I've found a better description of interactions with my parents. Thank you both for being there to help me keep my bearings. Reading things like this just strengthens my resolve to stay away from my parents, and to stop trying to communicate with them.

I still have bad days dealing with things about my parents. But these seem to be getting fewer and more manageable. Being thankful for what I have now, and continuing to remind myself that they can't hurt me anymore, helps a lot.

That's all for now. Peace.

Dave

I forgot to put my narcissist joke in my last posting:

How many narcissists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

One. But you have to wait for the world to revolve around them.

Dave

Hi,

I wrote a reply, but it disappeared!! Darn!

Ha ha, good joke, isn't that the truth. Nice to laugh about it for a change.

Dave, you have really got me thinking about NPD. I have always known my mother was 'off', I realized that some time ago. I am not saying I am perfect, because I know I am not. But at least I have attempted to face some of my own issues. I never pegged her as NPD, I have thought about it before when the subject was brought up, but was not sure. She is exactly the way you describe via the quotes! Exactly. It has sort of floored me reading those quotes.

There is nothing more frustrating than when I know exactly how a certain event transpired, even have witnesses to validate it, and my mother skews it completely. I have been there far too many times. And that is exactly what I do, tell someone (my husband), go over and over the situation to make sur I am remembering it right. It does make me feel like I am going crazy, like it is 'me'. I felt that way sooo many times.

I don't understand it. Why not be real? Isn't it easier to live that way - in reality? Instead of twisting everything and causing hurt and turmoil? She must know what she is doing, I have a hard time accepting that they do this unconsciencely, because of NPD. I guess it is yet another self-serving method to validate herself.

It also shows in the way she brags endlessly about my brother. It is really quite disturbing. She loses herself in him. I think it is just fine to be proud of your son, yes, he has accomplishments...but there has to be some sort of limit as to how much you brag about anything. I think she feels that he is a reflection of her because she raised him - and is flawless - the perfect child. Just like how she is. I am not nit picking my brother because he was the favoured child, he is a genuine jerk, anyone on earth could see that. Well, except for her that is.

I don't think my father has NPD. To me, he is just a shell of a person. He has no substance, and perhaps that is why he was so prone to drinking too much alcohol. I have no respect for him, he is spineless, but at the same time critical. He blames his drinking too much on the 'disease' of alcoholism, yet does not take any responsiblity for his actions, or for who he hurt. And that is part of AA I suppose. A load of crap. It is so weird. The last few times I did see him, he would talk about my cousins, and how they did this and that with their parents. It is like he wished our family was that way. But it is not - and it is his fault things were not better. He was the adult, and he could have made things better if he wanted to. Seems he expects things to just happen that way, that families are just close naturally. I still hold alot of hate towards him. Why could he not just step up, be a parent, be a decent human being and maybe things would have been different? He has always always lived in these pipe dreams of what he was going to do and accomplish - alot of talk, but rarely any action. I remember him being that way forever.

I have done some reading on NPD, and I understand that even therapy does not really help alot. It must be so deeply ingrained into who they are. It is how they live, cope, and interact with others. And they must feel good about themselves. I agree the situation is made worse when you try to reach out to them with any emotion. I found it to be humiliating, the way my mother brushed me off when I sincerely tried to express my feelings. I was so so SO careful not to offend or attack. Why I even have that kind of consideration towards them is beyond me. They certainly have no consideration for my feelings. Never have. It is a sick thing to do to brush someone off when they reach out to you, especially your own offspring. It shows her complete lack of empathy.

Ah well. It is so true Dave, it feels good to know they can't hurt me anymore. There will be no more awkward, uncomfortable moments with them, and there will be no more feelings of frustration, resentment and anger when I did have contact with them.

Sage

Hi Dave & Sage,

I've had a very busy week. A lot has come up for me. Finally reading the build up of unopened letters, although I've only opened up one, from my mother restimulates a lot of emotional debris. It feels so empty reading anything that she writes and it all seems so phony. I do care about her, but the relationship is not what I would have wanted and the situation is not how I would have liked things to turn out. Despite my best efforts, it is what it is and I doubt that will ever change, because it takes two people, not just one to make it so. What I really long for is for her to take some measure of responsibility, but I know that will not happen. It would be important, very important to allow healing, but I know it will never take place.

Sage, I've felt the same as you where you say, "Every year I would find it horribly difficult to shop for them, and pick out the most generic card, that wasn't too gushy, because I could not send anything like that because it was even more fake...I felt like a complete fraud, and it was upsetting to read the loving sentiments in the greeting card aisle. I felt completely obligated, and that I was in a way forced to go through the motions. I can't explain it, but it really was a stressful ordeal for me to do this. For years and years. I felt the same way recieving cards from them. I would dread opening them."

I feel this way about my husband's relatives and family too, given how horrible their treatment was towards him and me, but mostly directed at me. It feels phony, fake and insincere. It actually feels even worse than that, but I'm having a hard time finding the right words to express it. I just opened a Xmas card that his aunt sent addressed to the two of us, and wondered why she even bothers. The inside note was a bizzare generic how's the weather type of thing and it really gives me the creeps how they just ignore all the garbage as if it doesn't exist and persist in these idiotic phony rituals. If situations were discussed and people were open and honest, then I wouldn't feel this way at all, but everything is so oppressive. My husband seems fine going along with it all and has always adopted the stance that he "doesn't want to rock the boat". He is like that about everything, and doesn't seem to mind their mistreatment and inexcuseable conduct. He feels emotionally safe not opening up these wounds and persisting in the if I don't talk about it, then it doesn't exist and I don't have to deal with it approach. It works for him, but it's not good for me, and essentially I feel it has a negative impact on him too, but he is unwilling to look at it and lacks the courage and strength of heart that it would take to face his own demons.

It's also very odd to me how they cling and over-attach such great significance to the ritual of sending and receiving cards, when the huge elephant in the living room is ignored. In fact, it isn't just a one elephant in the living room, it's an entire herd.

Sage, you say, "One year, the father's day card I sent must have got lost in the mail" this happened to me too. He didn't say anything though and thanked me for the card about 6 months later as it finally reached him. He used to say and wonder why I never came home and "never visited".

Well I didn't come home because of all the sadness and heartache. I didn't come home because I couldn't live with feeling burdened and overwhelmed by them and their poor treatment of me. I couldn't live like that and feel good about myself. I didn't come home because I had to protect myself from them. I also didn't come home because I didn't want to see my husband's family either, or be around him when he did. I was hopeful that he would finally find his voice and assert himself with his family and rock the boat a little and set the record straight. I was hopeful that he would deal with situations himself and he chose not too. Had he behaved differently then I wouldn't have felt as stressed as I did, always having to cope with his adherence to his family's rules and don't talk rule. It was very, very hard on me.

"I don't really feel I am trying to 'get back at him', get any type of revenge. I know it sounds that way. I am just tired (soooo tired) of pretending." No, it does not sound like you are trying to get revenge, but from this comment I hear that you must have been criticized and not offered understanding. The guilt has been imposed by others and that is why it at times feels wrong, as if you've done something. I know this because I've been on the receiving end of the same types of behaviors. I've had people try to suggest that my distance is a way of punishing them (my sisters). That is so far from the truth. I'm only trying to protect myself and he (his denial) has been a serious part of the problem. I'm saving myself, not punishing anyone. I think you only react that way, because you've been criticized for taking care of yourself, just as I have. Whoever has said that to you is unwilling to offer empathy to you or to understand your perspective. I've dealt with that constantly too. It's a convenient way for people to not take responsibility and shift blame and guilt to someone else and they get a lot of help from others in accomplishing this.

Dave, "These are difficult and painful relationships aren't they?" Yes, very true.

Thank you for what you say here "It's been an incredibly difficult and long process to get to the level of indifference I now feel towards my parents. Even writing that I'm indifferent towards my parents seems like I'm doing something wrong. But I'm not. They left me no other options. And it has taken a lot of mourning to get here. And I think there is more mourning to come. But with each cycle of mourning I feel a little lighter and more free from painful feelings from deep in my past. Things continue to get better. I hope you can continue to emotionally untangle yourself from the negative people around you and find a more peaceful and enjoyable life. You deserve it!!!"

I feel as you do, but I must admit I alternate between indifference and caring. I think I probably always will. Some days are better than others. Maybe it is natural to experience conflicted emotions, although at times very unpleasant ones, around all of this and realize that they will eventually pass, or come and go. I don't know if it is completely possible to not feel as I do--the sadness, the anger and grief for what has happened. To not feel about it would be to feel emotionally numb. I just have to refocus my energies, but that does't mean that I still don't feel sadness and pain or other emotions.

Well, I've written enough for today...Thank you for listening and being here. Take care

Flower

Hello,

Sage, "It has sort of floored me reading those quotes." I felt the same way when I read them. It really helped crystallize in my mind how detached they are from any reality we could share. The only reality that we can share is their reality, given that they have zero ability to comprehend that I have thoughts and feeling that are separate from their reality. I cannot under any circumstances continue to exist in their reality. - Goodbye mom and dad. The excruciating pain of being in any kind of relationship with you beyond bearable. It is death itself. I want to live. I have to leave and can never come back, ever again.

"It is like he wished our family was that way. But it is not - and it is his fault things were not better. He was the adult, and he could have made things better if he wanted to. Seems he expects things to just happen that way, that families are just close naturally." My father has the same attitude. He thinks he can spend his entire life being a crude, selfish, loud-mouthed, hot-headed, heavy-drinking, violent, jerk and I'm suppose to grow up and admire and respect him. Please, just shoot me now ;-)

"I have done some reading on NPD, and I understand that even therapy does not really help a lot." I've also read that it tends to get worse with age. A frightening and spine-chilling thought. I need to run and never look back.

"it feels good to know they can't hurt me anymore" This is almost a mantra for me now. If I start getting anxious about them, I start repeating this. It's calming.

Flower, "I don't know if it is completely possible to not feel as I do--the sadness, the anger and grief for what has happened. To not feel about it would be to feel emotionally numb." I remember thinking this too. It's almost criminal the way others can trap us in this painful emotional prison for which we have a hard time seeing a way out. While you may be overwhelmed with sadness, anger, and grief about what has happened, it is very possible for this to greatly subside without being replaced by numbness. It can subside and you can have a feeling of well being and enjoyment of life. I think the work you are doing now is moving you in that direction. Don't give up.

Next week is Spring Break and I am leaving tomorrow to spend the week with my wife and sons in the mountains skiing. :-) I won't be back on-line for a week. Have a great week! Peace.

Dave

As some may know I am working on a documentary to try to enlighten people about estrangement... parents who aren't listening, children (adult) who have something to say. I know that many of you have very strong feelings on the subject and it is so painful for everyone...
I am hoping that some of you will be willing to step up and be interviewed for this very important piece. I don't want to know names, or specific nitty gritty.. I want to talk about the big picture.. what you feel.. how is this affecting your relationships.. your wife/husband, your children, the rest of your family..etc
I want to talk about the overview of your situation.. do your parents step on your boundaries, do they seem to be deaf? dumb? or otherwise?
If you are willing, please contact me!

Thanks so much..

Sarahsmom

Hello Dave, Flower,

Thanks once again for relating. Dave enjoy your week with your family.....sounds like loads of fun! :) :) You have the right outlook, and I really do respect how you have come to terms with the estrangement. It is the truth - it is death itself to be in a relationship with them. I could not agree more. I tried to get through to them, and I failed. But they also failed, they just don't admit it.

I am starting to see the link between all of our parents, they all seem to have one thing in common-suspected or diagnosed mental health issues. Is this about dealing with people with mental illness? I don't say that off-the-cuff...it is a conclusion I have come to after putting alot of thought into it. Unfortunate that none of them seem to want to face that reality, or get help, and it is also unfortunate that we had to be affected by their issues and they won't see that, or even give the concept any consideration whatsoever. I admit I have had problems with depression, whether my parents played a part in that or not (I do suspect they did), the point is that I admit it. I sought help. I don't want to hurt others around me because of my issues. I helped myself so I could be at peace, and so that I would not harm others. Why couldn't they do that?

They don't want to hear about our hurt or even help us get any closure. Just listening would help. But this is very often the case when dealing with mental illness, isn't it? People remain in denial about it, often for their entire lives? They blame, they don't see their short comings, and it is never their own fault in any way, they take no responsibility justifying it by saying they 'did the best they could'. This is typical with NPD.

And they think WE are mentally disturbed, go figure! Sigh, this is why I don't see any resolution. There is no common ground. I find it mind boggling.

I get alot of comfort from knowing they can't hurt me anymore too Dave. I have to keep reminding myself of that.

Flower, I can relate to going from caring to not caring, as I did that for many many years. I certainly do understand the conflicted emotions. I think they are worse than actually breaking ties completely to tell you the truth. We can only do what is right for each of us, everyone's situation is so unique. I think you are doing the right thing for you and doing a good job with helping yourself, and finding ways to cope.

Flower said: It's also very odd to me how they cling and over-attach such great significance to the ritual of sending and receiving cards, when the huge elephant in the living room is ignored. In fact, it isn't just a one elephant in the living room, it's an entire herd.

I agree. I don't understand this whole attachment to the card (and parcel) sending ritual. And it is never 'personal' at all. In my situation, I think it is their way (my mother in particular) of showing they care. I know that not everyone is 'touchy/feely personal' - but to be so ultra cold, that shocks me. She truly believes that even if she has not spoken to me for a year (which happened), and if she sends a parcel at Xmas, she has 'done her part to keep in touch and show she does care'. Wow, that is shallow! If the cards had something personal written in them, or if the gifts were remotely personal, it would be different. But no, they are always generic hallmark cards and generic gifts. I find it disturbing beyond measure. Is she that distant that the only way she can relate is via shopping? I felt obligated to do the same thing, and I did the exact same thing, which I felt horrible about. No more.

Flower said: "He used to say and wonder why I never came home and "never visited". My father used to say this alot too. I have a really hard time being at my parents house. Alot of bad memories. I used to force myself to go, and thought it would be therapeutic to 'face it'. But it never really helped. I had to see all the crazy 'shrines' with a hundred pictures of my brother, and it always left me feeling like I never should have visited. It just created more resentment every single time.

Yes, I have been criticized for causing trouble in the family, by not leaving 'the past in the past'. The bottom line is that they are cold, harsh, incapable of empathy from what I have seen, and possibly have some deep rooted mental issues based on how they have acted, and reacted, over the years. And those type of people - whether they are blood relatives, friends, or just someone I happen to meet on the street - those are the type of people I don't want a relationship with, because they hurt me.

Sarasmom, I am not interested in participating in a documentary. While I appreciate someone trying to gain an understanding of our situations, I don't really want the personal information that I posted here used. I realize I did post it publicly (which may have been a big mistake on my part) so I don't think there is much I can do to stop that other than to ask you to please respect my request to not use my information. This has been a painful process, not something I want to share via a documentary. Thanks.

Sage

Hi Sage,

I know Dave isn't around this week, so I thought I would send you a heads up that I just sent you an email. I also included in the subject heading flowergardenmuse. I'd just found your email address to send it.

Also, my mother left me a message. I always find anything from her restimulates painful memories and emotions--these are more current/recent memories from the ordeal of having to deal with her mental health issues--her mental health deteriorating. I really haven't written about that fully, because it is so painful to think about. I was just having to cope with so much that I felt continuously assaulted from all sides. It is hard to cope when you feel so overwhelmed with your own health issues, chronic pain and then on top of that everything else. I think and know that you and Dave would respond appropriately, with empathy and compassion, but I've been criticized by others and this of course, has been damaging. I've had enough of dealing with other people and their presenting and framing criticisms as helpful, when they are anything but that, or listening to constant excusing making or framing it always as the other person's problems as in, "don't take it personally". I've dealt with that enough already and far from allowing people to open up and offer a safe environment conducive to healing it does the exact opposite and stifles honesty and openness. And that sucks out emotional safety and intimacy.

I can't post more right now as I'm running short on time, but hopefully you will receive my email and I'm planning on writing more later.

Take care and I hope that you are doing okay.

Flower

Hello! I'm new here. I was glad to see this topic in the forum. It has been so hard for people to understand why I'm estranged from my family especially my mother and I'm sick of hearing "but that's your mother"! They do not understand that she was not the sweet protective mother with my best interests in mind like their mother; she was sadistic and abusive. They cannot fathom that my own mother is the least safe person on the planet for me to be around. So I've found it easier to just tell people she is dead. Really my paternal grandmother was the closest thing to a mother I had and she is dead so it's not that big of a lie.

My relationship with my father, brothers, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc was not much better. It has recently hit me just how much this has impacted my relationships with men as a single woman. I was never anybody's little princess growing up so I guess I have been subconsciously looking for that in my relationships with men - a combination of an adoring father and an equal partner. I think I have work to do on myself in this respect. :o)

This is a long thread so it will take me time to read and get to know each of you but I wanted to go ahead and pop in and say hello.
Rachel

Welcome Rachel, Hi Sage, and Flower,

I've been skiing on Spring Break with my family. Despite my wife tearing her ACL, we still managed to have some fun. She's doing pretty good, but will need surgery :-(

Rachel, I hope you find some support and encouragement here. I know I have. I know I'm fed up with the reaction I get from others, if the topic of being estranged from my parents come up. It's just not worth bringing up with people who don't understand.

Also, I think the relationship with my parents has negatively affected my adult relationships. I think being aware of this, and working on this, has helped me move a more positive direction.

Sage, "I am starting to see the link between all of our parents, they all seem to have one thing in common-suspected or diagnosed mental health issues. Is this about dealing with people with mental illness?" With my parents, I'm convinced it is. In a way, thinking about it like this makes it easier. It is still not easy.

Here is another quote from the NPD website, I mentioned earlier, that perfectly describes my parents:

"Narcissists are very disappointing as gift-givers. First, narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have asked for; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house."

This explains why I've been getting a bunch of cheap crap from them for years that I donate to charity. I have told my mother for years that I wear a size "XL" shirt or sweater. She always buys me "L". When I ask her why, she says my dad wears and "L" and I'm about the same size so it should fit me. I suspect she's been sending me stuff she bought for him that he doesn't want to wear. This is almost funny. But not quite. ;-)

"And they think WE are mentally disturbed, go figure!" Since they have accused me of this, I've told them my family doctor thinks I'm fine. So now they have accused me of Elderly Verbal Abuse, because I write things to them like I find them to be insincere, and that spending time with them is stressful and unpleasant. I guess if I'm not mentally ill, then the only other reason for me to write these things is that I'm intentionally trying to abuse them. This almost makes sense. Of course the idea that I might be trying to express my genuine thoughts and feelings is out of the question.

Flower, "I always find anything from her restimulates painful memories and emotions" Yes it does, doesn't it. This still happens to me, but it doesn't last as long as it used to. I hope you can find more safe havens in your life, places and people that can help you heal.

Anyway, that's all for now. I hope you are all doing well.

Peace.

Dave

Hi Rachel, Welcome! I sure have found this forum helpful, it is very comforting to find people in the same situation. Nobody else can understand, and I am sick of the responses I get from people too. Right now I do not have any contact at all with my parents, or any other blood relatives. You will see the jist of my story from my (long-winded, and ranting) posts here!! ;)

I am not single, but I do know how my relationships with men were influenced by my relationship, or lack of relationship, with my father. It was not good. I can see clearly how the problems I had were related to by upbringing.

There is another thread here with the same title. It is an older thread, which has just been continued here in this new thread.

Dave!!!! You said/quoted...
"Narcissists are very disappointing as gift-givers. First, narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have asked for; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house."

Once again, EXACTLY! That is what my mother did, for as long as I can remember. No matter how many times I have told her year after year how highly scented candles irritate me, she gives them too me all the time. I even told her several times that I had to give them away, please dont' buy them for me anymore, I can't have them in the house. She didn't 'get it'. I tell her my husband does not wear aftershave/lotions - yet she buys that for him anyways, time and time again, for years. It is mainly just junk. It used to hurt my feelings that she could not take the time to put thought into anything, or even add a personal note to a card. I have sent loads and loads of stuff from her to the thrift store. That is an interesting trait of those with NPD. Very very intersting. Thanks for sharing that Dave.

Sage

Speaking of gifts reminds me of something that happened from as early as I can remember until the last time I exchanged gifts with my mother years ago. I never opened a surprise in her presence. She'd always tell me what the gift was before I could get it unwrapped. If someone else brought me a gift she'd find out what it was and tell me as I was unwrapping it. Other adults even scolded her for it but it was like she couldn't help herself. What is that all about?

One more random memory that came up as I was typing the above - when my grandmother died she left a large diamond ring to me. My mother got it and it was about a year before I got it from her. The next morning I took it to have it appraised so I could have it properly insured. Well imagine my surprise when the jeweler told me that was not a diamond but a piece of cubic zirconium! He said the ring had been designed for a diamond and that it looked like the prongs had been opened recently so I have always been convinced that my mother switched the diamond with a fake one before she gave me the ring! I never even bothered to confront her because she'd never admit it and give me the diamond.

I can't even trust her to know where I live or work. A few years ago she called the HR department of the place I worked at that time and told them she was trying to find me because I never called her or came to see her! OMG I was so embarrassed. And she was always bad about just showing up at my home unannounced.

Oh no Rachel, that is terrible what your mother did with the ring! And also with phoning and showing up unannounced. I know that feeling of them forcing themselves on you. I find it feels like an assault.

The whole gift thing has been a real problem for me, and for Dave too, as you will see if you read some of the past posts. Then the whole feeling of being obligated to send them a gift or card.

I was still in touch, although infreqently, with my mother, mainly via email, around Xmas this past year. I requested, kindly, in October, that we NOT exchange gifts this year. Just cards. I was very clear about it and careful how I worded it. Not a big deal...I actually requested this from a few other people too. Nobody had a problem with it. She didn't respond to that request. Although she responded to the email, so I know she read it. Xmas arrives, and suprise...this parcel comes from my mother. I confronted her about it and she said something like: "you can't tell me what to do, if I want to send a gift to you I will. Because I care no matter what you say." Wow.

Come to think of it, my mother has told me what gifts are before I open them, too. Mainly gifts I have received from other people. Does she not want me to be surpirsed? Does she want to ruin the surprise? Does she want to be the only one giving gifts? It is a very weird thing to do in any case.

This gift issue has come up alot of times here in this forum. I find it very disturbing that my mother uses 'stuff' to somehow proove she cares. Her actions and words certainly do not reflect that sentiment at all.

At one point, I had not heard from them AT ALL for over a year. And a parcel shows up at our house at Xmas, just like nothing happened, 'Love mom and dad' is what the card said. That to me was creepy and bizarre. No phone call, no letter acknowledging the estrangement - nothing. Just a box of stuff and a generic Xmas card, the usual. sigh. It is not that I don't appreciate gifts. Because I do. It is just that I am actually offended by gifts that are not given with any sincerity.

Sage

Okay, something else has surfaced. It's interesting that I just found this forum because just recently I've realized even more problems that my upbringing has caused in my relationships. I don't think I've ever been involved with a man who was really on my side and the second I realize that it completely turns me off.

In most families you can count on them to have your back when no one else does. In my family my relatives were my worst enemies. Most people lock their windows and doors to keep the bad guys out. I locked my bedroom door to the rest of the house but kept the window unlocked and ajar so I could dive out it any time and I did have to dive out it more than once. I was already in the house with the bad guys!

I don't even remember my family backing me on anything and some of the trouble makers at school caught on to that and thought it was so funny to tell my mother that I had done this or that and she'd rip me apart in front of them never for a second considering that I might be innocent.

My younger brother was the only one of my siblings who had anything to do with my mother. I left home as soon as I graduated and she was fine with little contact until my younger brother died. Then she called me and informed me that now it was "up to you" to take care of her and she wanted to move in with me! No way! The harassment kept on until I had to cease contact with her. My life would be over if I were dumb enough to let her move in with me or if I lived anywhere near her.

I'm afraid she has tried to turn my younger brothers sons into substitutes for him and has tried to groom them to take up where he left off when I refused to. Last I heard one of them has daily contact with her and the other left home at 17 to get away from her according to his mother who also doesn't speak to my mother for tormenting her child until she ran him off.

She wants what she wants and it doesn't matter what you have to go through as long as she gets it. She doesn't care if you are a child either she'll still suck the very life out of you.

Welcome Rachel, Hi Sage & Dave.

Welcome back Dave. Sorry to hear about your wife tearing her ACL (that hurts). I'm glad that you had a good time, despite that and it's good to hear from you.

Rachel I can relate to what you said here as my husband does not stand up for me and it is a role reversal as he is a people pleaser. "I don't think I've ever been involved with a man who was really on my side". Yes, I know exactly how this feels and it doesn't feel good at all. He says that he is on my side, but then acts in ways that demonstrate that he is completely clueless and I feel as if I've been talking to a wall. I would prefer a response which offered understanding and empathy, and then to build on that if he would take steps to demonstrate awareness of what is important such as such as correcting people when they are wrong, instead of resorting to passivity, or speaking up and setting boundaries on inappropriate behaviors. Instead he reinforces the behaviors and I believe rewards the negative, destructive behaviors. In fact, he is an enabler. He refuses to stand up to people, to set the record straight or to even attempt to establish boundaries or enforce them. He is a people-pleaser. He has no problem in allowing people to try to scapegoat me. This has caused a lot of problems for us, because he refuses to learn to stand up for himself and prefers just appeasing others and going along and to not rock the boat, even when it would be in his own best interest to fight for his rights, and then mine.

His behaviors are directly related to his family dynamics, especially his mother who was a rager and an alcoholic.

Rachel, I can also relate to what you said here, "In most families you can count on them to have your back when no one else does. In my family my relatives were my worst enemies." That is exactly how I feel about my sisters and mother and father. I could not count on them to fight for my rights or to stand up for me. It makes one very vulnerable and you are right as other people catch on to this. Unfortunately I internalized much of these behaviors and started to doubt myself or even the validity of my legitimate concerns. I ended up taking on other people's attempts to blame and scapegoat me. Very wrong, but people will try to do this again and again and manipulators are quite good at getting others to take sides. This is a ploy of my sister-in-law who destroys relationships due to her underhanded manipulations, but other people are very willing to enable this conduct as well, including my husband as he doesn't like being the target of their rage and unhappiness. He wants to belong to the group at all costs.

You have every right to have your own life and not have your mother try to impose herself on you and drain the life out of you. My situation is a little different, as is everyone, but there is much of what you say that I can understand and relate too. She probably has a personality disorder or type of mental illness.

I don't have much time to post today, so this is all for now and I will write more later.

Flower

Hello Dave, Sage...Everyone,

Rachel, from what you say below I think your mother was trying to embarrass you by making herself out to be a victim and it was a very manipulative ploy on her part. It was also thoughtless and inconsiderate of her to just show up at your home unannounced and not invited. Those are behaviors that are typical of narcissists. She may even have a personality disorder or some type of undiagnosed mental illness.

"A few years ago she called the HR department of the place I worked at that time and told them she was trying to find me because I never called her or came to see her! OMG I was so embarrassed. And she was always bad about just showing up at my home unannounced."

I did not have this particular problem with my mother as I have always lived far away or in another state. I don't think my mother would behave that way as she has other disturbing and difficult behaviors. However, my husband did have a friend who would show up unnannounced and many who made suggestions or invited themselves. He has a host of people who consistently IMPOSE on US in various ways all the time and he refuses to participate in setting boundaries or even problem-solving. He likes people to view him as friendly and sociable as he is seeking their approval and wants me to fill the role as the bad guy, burdening me all the time with being the source of people's anger and rage, because I will not appease their ego's or tolerate their thoughtless, selfish BS. He really drives some situations between us, so it has been a constant source of friction and difficulty because the types of people that he attracts are users, manipulators, liars, deceivers, etc. In short they are all infantile, babyish narcissists.

I also never felt like I was around anyone who understood my difficulties and I always felt like I was constantly being placed in the role of the parent figure (the serious one), because someone else refuses to grow-up or to take responsibility for their fair share of work in the relationship or with dealing with others. So, in essence I felt like I was constantly having to cope and deal with a constant assortment of a bunch of superficially charming losers, idiots and aholes. Outwardly, the appeared and acted like adults until one got to know them better. My husband suffered these fools because of his own issues and upbringing and he resented me not doing the same. He would try to control and dictate my choice of friends and would even impose himself into my relationships with others, essentially cutting me off from having friends of my own. So it was all about his issues and needs and his trying to force me to be "friends" with the idiots he brought into our existence. It is hard to explain, but it is no fun being in this position and it wears on a person emotionally. I see my husband as someone who learned that his feelings didn't count in his family, and he learned that his value lied in taking care of others and what he did for others, not for who he is/was. I kept trying to get him to realize what he was doing, but he resented it and didn't want to change. He wanted me to stand up for him, but he didn't want to learn to stand up for himself or to ever stand up for me.

I do not like "side-taking" for what it evokes in me as I see my sister-in-law as engaging in this behavior to destroy relationships with others. I do feel what was lacking in your family and mine was a family who would intervene or stand up for your rights. A child needs the protection of their family and when this is missing and the child is the target/victim of the parents it gets horribly skewed. The victim experience (stripping someone of their personal power) and the experience of powerlessness is a terrible teacher. It's lesson can be long-lasting. Once someone is aware and knows that they have a choice, then they can make other choices, but this can be a long process. The message from the abuser is clear: "You have no right to make the choices that impact your life. I have all the power, you have none." That sounds so much like a lot of parents who probably do not see themselves as victimizers or abusers. And people who have no power, have no voice and people with no voice believe themselves to be invalid. Well, it is very difficult for people to view themselves as valid when their parents or siblings refuse to listen or to hear them, act indifferent to their feelings or twist what they say. That is not a dialogue. That is one person trying to get their needs met at the expense of another and there is NO relationship in that when it is all about the other person.

Well, I've written enough for now and will write more later...Take care everyone...

Flower

Hello Dave & Sage,

I was going to post more, but I don't have more time. Dave you brought up a lot that I want to respond to when I have more time. My mother has been increasing her contact with me and now is leaving messages. It's creating a lot of stress for me. I know I have told you both that she was eventually diagnosed with mental illness. I haven't talked about that much, because it was so incredibly painful to have to deal with on top of everything else. For the longest time I've felt like I was just coping and dealing with one problem after another...health issues, chronic pain, etc., surgery and more and more stuff unloaded on me. I really never felt like I even had the time or energy to even process any of it, as I was too busy just surviving, if that makes any sense. I still feel that way. I've also had to cope with far too much abuse in my life and people imposing on me, ignoring boundaries and behaving in very aggressive, deeply destructive ways. I've always felt like a lot of people are very disrespectful of my feelings, boundaries and personal space. It takes a long while to sort it all out, to talk about it in a way that feels healthy for me. I think you both know and understand those feelings very well. Anyway, I will write more later....

Flower

Hi All,

I found this website, which I've listed below some time ago and periodically have revisted the site. She has some info on personality disorders and mental illness. The Rick Ross site is also on the links page, although I found that link on another site, which I previously mentioned about AA, called the Orange Papers, etc. The site was created by a woman who is estranged from her daughter and so I think it more from a parent's perspective, however she has a lot of different links, articles, etc. More recently someone who posted on the parents forum established another online support group called estranged stories, (I think that is more for parents as well too)--you have to be a member and register for the site.

Hi Rachel, Flower, Dave, and anyone else reading,

As a child I also did not feel anyone was on my side. I sure can relate. Feeling alone, unsafe, unloved, and not part of any sort of 'group', like you belonged anywhere. I developed insecurity very young, and it only got worse. I was suicidal very young. I was constantly told I was overreacting, too sensitive, too dramatic, etc. I think I was just looking for some attention.

When a child is crying hysterically, how on earth can anyone just shout these type of accusations at them? When a child says 'nobody likes me' to their parents, and continues to cry - which I remember doing alot - how can they just brush them off and not even sit down and talk to them about it? My parents just treated me like an adult. They expected me to act like an adult when I was 5 yrs old, which is beyond ridiculous. My whole life they have always pointed the finger at ME. They take no responsibility whatsoever. To this day, they are adament they did absolutely nothing wrong and did "the best they could". I have given up trying, I tried for far too many years to have a relationship with them.

BUT on the plus side - I KNOW it was not me. The more I reflect on my childhood, the more I know it was not me at all. I resent the fact that they made me feel everything was always my fault. I went through years and years feeling like there was something wrong with me.

It is unnatural to not be given nurturing when you are a child. Almost all animals belong to a 'pack' of some sort at the beginning of their lives. There is a bond and feeling of security. I never felt I had that kind of bond with my parents. When that bond is missing, I believe it creates all sorts of serious problems in future relationships.

Rachel, Your mother sounds like she may have NPD traits. I am sorry for what she has put you through. I have just recently realized my mother fits this personality disorder to some degree. Although it does not justify her actions in any way, it is good to know and to understand some of the reasons why she did what she did.

I'll check out that site Flower...thx! :)

Sage

Hello All,

Rachel, I can see why you stay away from your mother; stealing your grandmother's diamond, calling HR where you work, that is so completely unacceptable, it is so over the top. There is a theme in this forum around none of our mothers having any sense of our boundaries. And when we try to establish our boundaries, they invariably go completely berserk. Staying away seems to be the only solution to people like this. I think we all know what this means: "she'll suck the very life out of you."

Sage, "When a child says 'nobody likes me' to their parents, and continues to cry - which I remember doing a lot - how can they just brush them off and not even sit down and talk to them about it?" That is so cold, and so wrong. It makes me want to cry. How could they have been so cold and indifferent to their little girl who needed them? It reminds me of when I was in 5th grade, 11 years old, and had to write an autobiography as a school project. Every time I would start to work on it, I would start crying and not be able to stop. At age 11 I already found my life so sad that writing about it made me cry uncontrollably. Do you know what my mother's solution was to this? She wrote it for me. That's it. She wrote it, I turned it in and that was it. It's funny, it's still that way. It doesn't matter how I feel now. She will still tell me how my life should be, write it for me so to speak, and that's it. That's what I'm supposed be, that's whats supposed to be turned in. But I grew up, wised-up, and she can't get away with this anymore. But she still tries.

Flower, "For the longest time I've felt like I was just coping and dealing with one problem after another...health issues, chronic pain, etc., surgery and more and more stuff unloaded on me. I really never felt like I even had the time or energy to even process any of it, as I was too busy just surviving, if that makes any sense. I still feel that way." I don't know how you do it. I feel overwhelmed just reading about your situation. I hope you can find a way to make some progress in all the chaos around you. I really don't know how you do it. Hang it there. I'm thinking about you.

Thank you all for being there, and for all the support and understanding you offer. It's been a blessing finding you all. Peace.

Dave

Hi everyone,

Thanks Dave for the understanding and I am sorry it made you sad! I resent my mother's extremely distant and cold treatment of me in similar situations to the one I stated. It makes me cry to this day. Was she that self absorbed? I don't get it, I just can't wrap my head around it. What kind of person does that? They made me feel like there was something very wrong with me, even when I was a little kid, that carried well into my adult life. There was (and is) NOTHING 'wrong' with me. I was reacting as any kid would to growing up and trying to function normally in an abusive home.

I went through a period in my adult life when I really did seriously question my own mental health! Because I could not get along with my parents, could not seem to please them, and also had other relationship problems with people too. Men in particular. In reality, I did not learn how to have good relationships when I was a child, I was just living the way I learned how to live - in distress. I am so thankful I did realize it was not me causing the problems, it never was.

I am getting off on a tangent........

Dave, I understand your sadness as a child. That is horrid what you mother did with your autobiography! It is very sad that a kid in Grade 5 has to have that kind of stress, and to not feel they can write about their life. Typical, and something my own mother would do - just 'wash' it over, submit it, and move on, and never ever speak of it again. I was very depressed from grade 3-5, I remember that time period distinctly. A kid should be playing and having fun, not sad and worried about what was happening at home. And back to the NPD factor - your mother demonstrated a complete and utter lack of empathy.

"She will still tell me how my life should be, write it for me so to speak, and that's it. That's what I'm supposed be, that's whats supposed to be turned in. But I grew up, wised-up, and she can't get away with this anymore."

That is well said. That is what my mother does. My mother has always been hung up on the way thing are 'supposed' to be, how she appears to others, it is nicer for her to keep her head in the sand. Very selfish.

I was doing some more reading on NPD, and parents who have NPD. I ran across an interesting point about how it is common for these NPD parents to blatently favour one child over another. That one child becomes their idol, and that favored child reflects who they, the parents, are. This has happened to me, as I have brought this up numerous (too many) times on this forum. It was very obvious that my brother is the 'golden child'. Were my parents that devoid of their own sense of self that they needed one of their children to represent them as people? If they only realized how deeply that hurt me, how left out I felt, and how alone it made me feel. But they don't see it that way. They see it as me being 'troubled' and my brother being the definition of success. They overlook his short comings entirely. What is up with that!?! It makes no sense to me. I hope to understand the psychology of it more, but right now, I just don't get it. It seems so irrational. The more I research NPD, the more I see my mother. I am so glad the topic of NPD came up here.

Sage

Hello Dave, Sage and everyone,

Sage, my mother and father behaved the same--my mother would tell me (I think she did the same to my sisters) how terrible we were as children. She would tell me that I was horrible and a brat. She would complain about how awful I behaved. They gave me nicknames such as bratty_____. I think she just felt deficient and turned it all around and put it all back on me. My sisters claimed that I was favored and both poured forth their resentment towards me in abundance. Both told me that they felt I was a "f***ing spoiled brat. One told me that I deserved to get slapped and hit. She said this after I tried (many times) to tell her part of the reasons why I am not close to my oldest sister, why I feel distant and wary of her. She hit and slapped me across the face and had a very explosive rageful temper. It was like dealing with a type of jekyll & hyde type of person. I never felt comfortable or safe around her. I've tried several times to talk to them about how it feels to be on the receiving end of their behaviors and what it did to the relationship. They cannot hear my emotional pain, dismiss my feelings as "too sensitive" or dismiss me as mentally ill, etc. All it does is that they twist what I say, make excuses or turn it into all about themselves. It is always about them. They don't ever take any personal responsibility for anything. They cannot connect to my feelings or emotions as it is all about them. Connecting to my emotions for them means that they talk about themselves, or try to deny my reality and tell me how I should respond and feel. They always try to fix me. Apparently they feel that I'm broken and a big disappointment. They cannot feel good about themselves unless they poison the relationship with belittling or criticizing me. That have to feel one-up all the time.

They were physically abusive and emotionally abusive. They all slapped me in the face, hit, whipped, shook me, or pinned me to the wall, except the middle sister (who is also older than me). According to them I deserved it, because I was horrible or a brat, etc.

I have a scar on my chin and I was told by my eldest sister that my father hit me when I was a toddler and it split my chin open. They had to rush me to a hospital. She also told me that I wasn't wanted as a baby and child. She said that my father didn't want another child and so he apparently was abusive to our mother while she was pregnant, because he resented her being pregnant with me. Later, when I asked my mother about the situation her response was to say that my eldest sister was the one who didn't want me around. She said that she didn't want me. Can you imagine how hurtful it was to hear all of this.

Another time when I was just a kid (maybe 5 or 6), I put a pill up my nose (kids do silly things). My father told me to hold my nostril and blow to get it out and then he really thumped me in the head (which really hurt) and when I started to cry, all he did was laugh about it. Another time he was cruelly teasing me at the dinner table and my sisters and mother were present, I kept telling him to stop and he wouldn't. I started crying and left the table and all he said was that it was good sensitivity training. My mother didn't do anything. She never intervened while he bullied and abused me. My sisters just watched and learned from his expert instruction. They are emotional bullies.

The only person who didn't hit me was my middle sister (or I can't recall), but she let me take the heat for her and didn't speak up when I got punished for something that she did. The way she assaults is through her words and actions, but she doesn't assault me physically. She makes huge issues about gifts. Actually both of my sisters do. Apparently the eldest felt ripped off because she felt she was more generous financially giving me gifts, than I was with her. The other flew into a hissy fit because I didn't send a thank you note right away--I sent it within a month's time frame. Apparently she didn't either get it or she had a very rigid time frame (less than a month) or it was unacceptable. She sent letters loaded with sarcasm (her special brand of cruelty).

Dave, I can relate to what you said also about the sadness you felt as a child. You mother demonstrated a complete lack of empathy for you and once again turned it into all about her. Her focus was all about herself and still is. I experience my mother as similar, although as I got older I filled the role of being empathetic towards her, so she felt closer to me than my sisters, because I finally had a use for her--I was no longer the horrible toddler/child that she had to put up with. Now I could listen to all of her problems and be her therapist. I've found myself in this role with many women.

I think my mother-in-law may have had NPD or she was just a narcissist. My own mother I experienced as emotionally unavailable, and I think she did have a personality disorder, but I don't think her problem was NPD. She's been diagnosed with something else, which I may talk about at a later date. Well, I've written enough for today...

Flower

Hello Everyone,

This restimulates so much for me (the dismissing of my feelings, dictating my reality and denial around issues) and I just recalled another incident involving my middle older sister. When I started therapy for the first time, after suffering a sexual assault/sexual harrassment ordeal on the job, and subsequent clinical depression, I revealed to her a childhood bullying incident involving another little girl who lived in the neighborhood before we moved there. This little girl was the neighborhood bully and quite the manipulator. I started a club and she and her younger sister were invited, and her response (I can only speculate that it was jealousy, because she wasn't number 1) was to make a card. On the outside there was a nice picture, but on the inside she wrote, "We Hate You", and it was signed by several other kids in the neighborhood. I had been sick and both her and her sister came to the door and gave it to me, and then waited for my reaction. They laughed. I don't recall my mother ever comforting me or doing anything about it, but I recall how I felt. After this girl and her sister moved, about a year later they returned and they rang our doorbell wanting me to come play with them and I declined. I recall remembering this incident and how it felt, and my sisters response was that she got very bogged down over a small trivial detail--the exact date--of when they moved, and then proceeded to dismiss the whole entire story and my feelings by wondering and suggesting that it was a dream. When I said it wasn't she wanted to argue about it. That stopped the conversation short. I was used to her always making sweeping generalizations and dimissing my feelings as a joke. She has always responded to anything I say in a very dismissive way, by judging, over-generalizing and by trying to dictate my reality. She once even responded to my expressing how I felt by saying that she experienced my feelings as "nebulous", and then proceeds to dismiss and minimize my feelings further by stating that I'm mentally ill, and that is why I react as I do, which she always judges as "too sensitive". I think their behavior extremely cruel and insensitive. I've always experienced them that way. And they wonder why the relationship has gone sour and why we are not close. Just how stupid are these people?

This is how my family behaves and it has always been a very consistent theme with them--label and judge my emotions as "too sensitive" or dimiss me as "over-reactive", they constantly minimize my feelings and dictate my reality. Once, my therapist asked me where was my mother when this happened and my response was to say that I didn't know. I don't recall my mother ever responding to me in a comforting way. She just minimized everything that I felt. I think she resented me and felt that I was just a lot of trouble. She even told me once that mothering was a hard job and that she didn't enjoy it. When I tried to discuss a situation involving my husband's friend's wife, who spent the entire time in my home unloading on me like I was her therapist (and she was completely focused on her issues, negativity and problems)they had stayed with us with their infant and 3 year-old-daghter, and the problems that occurred due to their visit, instead of my mother supporting me, she turned it all around to what a loser I was and focused on what a horrible brat I was. I think what set her off was that this woman's daughter was very poorly socialized and the mother was constantly hovering over her, and so when I tried to connect and interact with her little girl, she was unresponsive. I think the problem was due to the mother, and there were a lot of other problems due to this woman, but my own mother could not relate, or chose not too and it gave her another opportunity to talk about her resentment towards me. That is how I experience her.

As to why the first little girl responded to me the way she did, I can only speculate that she was jealous and angry and already had learned how to manipulate and bully others. It's sad that I didn't have anyone who could respond in an emotionally validating way. I was just a child. Even as an adult people are so self-absorbed that they cannot relate or make appropriate emotional connections.

Flower

Flower,

I can relate to how your parents brushed off your emotions and reactions, mine did the same. This topic has come up alot, we all seem to have experieced this. It is both humiliating and confusing to not have your feelings validated in any way, especially when you are a kid. Yes, I am sure they all met our basic needs when we were babies, but past that stage, I can see some similarities in our situations. They all seemed to treat us as if we were adults at a very young age, and did not provide the nurturing we needed.

Your mother was abusive Flower. It is so wrong to talk to a child how your mother spoke to you. Harsh.

My dad was a bully. He would always joke, and wrestle around, but take it way too far. Both my parents gossiped endlessly, and mocked just about everything, were racists, even laughed about disabled people. I remember this insensitivity they showed from a very young age. They would call people in wheelchairs 'gimps'...stuff like that. I distinctly remember when they would make comments like that, it felt like a knife going through my chest. I felt so bad, and knew it was wrong. I felt sorry for those people, and didn't understand why they had to be treated badly.

My emotions were always brushed off, and I was very often accused of being too sensitive, over reacting etc. I hold deep resentment about that, and that treatment continued into my adulthood, right until the bitter end. That has been a major issue for me. It was a major roadblock in why we could not establish any sort of relationship. I will never fully understand it. They have no empathy whatsoever.

I was bullied, and unfortunatly I did my own share of bullying too. That hurt and guilt lasts for a long time. I think of how my parents really were not conscious that I was a 'child'. It almost seems as if they were oblivious to the fact that I was influenced by what they did around me. How could they be that unaware?

Childhood memories can be very painful to recall. But even though we were victims then, we are not victims today.

Sage

Sage: You said "I was suicidal very young." I can so relate to that. I can remember as early as age 4 standing by the road and thinking that if I just ran out in front of a car it would all end. I was convinced that I must have done something terrible in a previous life to have been placed in the family I was born in this time round.

And this "To this day, they are adamant they did absolutely nothing wrong and did "the best they could". If I could point to one single thing that has set me free more than anything else it was the realization that my parents really did do the best that they could. They were horrible abusive parents but that's all they were capable of. That was the best they had to offer. It doesn't make it okay what they did to their kids but I've realized that they really did their best and I can't ask anymore of a person than that. Realizing that was when I could really let go of the anger, stop trying to get them to change, and turn around and walk away to start a life with no place for them in it.

And this: "it is common for these NPD parents to blatently favour one child over another. That one child becomes their idol" My mother clearly favored my oldest and youngest brothers especially the youngest and guess what? They are both dead now and the middle brother and I have nothing to do with her. She was fine with this until the youngest died and she called me and informed me that now it was up to me to take care of her. I don't think so! Unfortunately she has targeted younger brothers sons and has tried to groom them to take his place. She is now in the process of sucking the life out of them. I remember when I found out my youngest brother had died one of the first thoughts I had was that he had to die to get away from her! I won't let that happen to me. I've kept my child away from her too.

Dave: My parents were not even involved enough with me to have written a paper for school. I don't ever remember any help or concern; either I did the work or I got a failing grade and they didn't care. Education was not valued at all. Both parents dropped out in middle school and all 3 brothers dropped out. I was the only one to graduate high school and when I went on to complete college and graduate school it was deemed by them to be a "waste of time and money".

I do think my mother has some NPD traits but she also has quite a few Sadistic Personality Disorder traits. I've got to go run errands now (in a thunderstorm!) but I'll be back.
Rachel

Hello All,

Sage, "Thanks Dave for the understanding and I am sorry it made you sad!" Don't feel bad about this. We all write about some very sad things. I think it is healthy and helpful to feel sad about these things. I think it is part of the mourning process and will help us heal and grow.

Flower, "They were physically abusive and emotionally abusive. They all slapped me in the face, hit, whipped, shook me, or pinned me to the wall...". I'm glad you are getting some perspective on this and working on having a better life. No one should ever be treated like this.

Rachel, "And this "To this day, they are adamant they did absolutely nothing wrong and did "the best they could". If I could point to one single thing that has set me free more than anything else it was the realization that my parents really did do the best that they could. They were horrible abusive parents but that's all they were capable of. That was the best they had to offer. It doesn't make it okay what they did to their kids but I've realized that they really did their best and I can't ask anymore of a person than that. Realizing that was when I could really let go of the anger, stop trying to get them to change, and turn around and walk away to start a life with no place for them in it."

Thanks for saying this. I've never quite thought about it exactly this way. I've always heard them say that they did the best they could. Like some how that made it OK. I guess something I would have liked to say to them is, "Fine, that was your best, and it was a f-ing disaster. And since you don't have a clue how bad it was, or how awful it is having a relationship with you now, then adios, for good." Anyway, thanks for the insight.

"My parents were not even involved enough with me to have written a paper for school." I'm sorry they didn't care more. It sounds like you provided some of your own motivation get an education. I don't remember my parents caring much about school, when I was in Junior High or High School. I think this autobiography project got her attention, because I was only in 5th grade, and I was sitting at the kitchen table crying uncontrollably. I think she just wanted me to stop crying, and this was the easiest way she knew how to get me to stop.

That's all for now. Thanks again for all the support and understanding. You guys are great!

Peace,

Dave