I think you might be interested in a method I have been thinking of for a water fall feature, Ill try my best to describe it to you, it would be a water fall with a "cave" behind it, you build your false bottom first (pvc eggcrate)then in whatever corner/side you chose you build a frame, this frame will be the "skeleton" for your water fall,build it to be a cave,keeping in mind that when complete the water will be falling down and in front of this cave, make it caddy corner or directly on the side wall of the tank,(I think caddy corner would look best) you can make the opening to the cave as wide and as tall as you want, remember to be creative! this is your baby! you place the pump on the opposite side of the tank, where you will place a piece (or several pieces) of egg crate in the rear corner of the tank, again caddy corner,make it from the bottom of the tank up to the top of the tank, so that when you look directly down from the top of the tank, the shape behind the egg crate is a triangle, understand? make sure that the space behind the egg crate (the triangle) is large enough to allow your pump to be easily pulled up and easily lowered back in, that will be your access area, allowing you to clean/replace the pump when/if needed with out disturbing the tank and the inhabitants, you run the hose from the pump inside and at the bottom of the access area up to the top of the tank, then fold the hose at the top of the tank and send it back down the access area, the reason for this is to have enough hose to pull the pump up and out of the area when needed, then you simply run the hose along the bottom of the tank under the false bottom and up to the top of your water fall, there you will place your choice of "basin", slate, natually bowl shaped stone, driftwood, or whatever you want your water to run off of, you glue the hose in place with brown silicone at the spot where you want the water to begin filling your "basin" also use brown silicone to hold your basin in place, let it dry, then, starting from the bottom, begin to add the expanding foam, building the "muscle" of the skeleton as you go up, (remember to add the right size pots onto the frame using wire ties before starting the foam)cover the entire cave area in foam, not thick! just enough to cover the frame, them let the foam dry over night and add your favorite cover or "skin" if you will, I like coco fiber, I described the method of application in an earlier posting, you will do the entire back of the wall (if you like) using this method, that way the whole tank (back ground) looks full and complete, you can make your rivers and ponds using this same method also, just use small gravel for the river bottom instead of coco fiber, then you can let the rivers drain at the other end of the tank. Please let me know if this might work for you, also if I failed to accurately describe any part, please let me know and I will try harder! LOL! I will post pictures of the access area on my tank soon, hopfully tommorrow. =^)-

joanie b, thanks for the link to the kitchen like ours. It really did look nice. After reading people's thoughts (THANK YOU SO MUCH), thinking about the work to be done (while taking care of mom,) and money to be saved for the *real* remodel, we think we will probably refinish the cabinets. I think striping them (Thanks for the info on soygel, mom2lilenj) will be easiest in some ways. It will be a bit of a challenge to find handles since the existing ones are 3 1/2 ctc. We tried to do it years ago before the internet but could only find 3" centers. I figure we can even get anything with holes 3 inches apart as long as it projects far enough to cover the hole. Didn't think of that years ago. If we remove the hinges and put on hidden ones, I guess we will just have to use wood filler as close as possible to the color. The exposed hinges in the link from joanie b looked good though, so maybe we will do that. Less holes to fill too. Anyone have a better idea? Does anyone have a non-toxic top coat to suggest? We will do a test door to see about the color change, but I am hoping to not have to strip the cabinet boxes in the house, if possible. They are in pretty good shape. Less work and time, unless there is too noticeable a difference. We aren't sure about the counter yet. It is in decent condition and I think I could stand it for another 2 years. I can't wait to take down the wallpaper border to update the room, but I will miss what it says...'In everything, give thanks.' I hadn't thought about getting rid of the rack for the dishes and cookbooks, but I will try. There is a heating register behind it, so I can't block it with a hutch. That may have to wait, but I can neaten up the rack a bit if it stays. The reason I got it was to make my cabinets more usable since I am just under 5' tall. I had to get a stool every time I needed baking things from the SECOND shelf. What my kitchen really needs is built in step stools... LOL. What really needs to go is the sink, so maybe we will put in an inexpensive ss one to try out a large single bowl. I've always had a double, so that way I would now which I like better. I want a silgranite when the time comes. Thanks again for your help! Terri

Mila - sounds like you have a plan, and I know what you mean about not wanting to wait to follow through on your plan. There's always room for more roses if you get creative! Glad the pictures helped you get tempted - they're all great climbers and you can't go wrong with any of the three you mentioned. Summers - for sure you'd have to finagle a way to attach the canes to the trees, and that's getting way too close to Quadra for my skin's sake. He's big and thorny, and between two trees he'd be just waiting to pounce. For sure you'd need another kind of support in addition to the trees, or he'd be flopping on your other roses as you mention. I used to grow my Quadra as a free-standing bush and he was at least 7' wide and aggressive with space. Can you stretch some sort of trellis or arch between the trees for extra support? He might not bloom as much in part shade beneath trees, but I'm all for giving it a try if that's where he is. I have Veilchenblau beneath a huge oak tree and it's pretty impressive (though it doesn't want to climb). Cynthia

I am not an expert but I have a June bearing type that is also hit and miss but also sends out way to many runners. I had some Fort Laramie, everbearing, that have been much better but this winter were killed in my raised bed and the grass took over what was in the ground. I could have dug them up and washed the roots off before putting them in the raised bed but never got around to it. The voles were doing a number on everything in the ground.