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School sports are evil!

Posted by bunnyman (My Page) on
Wed, Jun 5, 02 at 12:41

Hi,

I think school and sports should be seperated at all levels from grade school and even more so from higher institutions. Why worry yourself about spanking the little brats when they go to school and learn to "beat" the other guy at all costs? Everyday I have to deal with high school graduates that can't read, write, reason, do simple math, or even budget money. What does fighting over a ball have to do with education? I think fraternal organizations would do a much better job of providing sporting activities that teach team building and facilitate social recreation. Schools become much to distracted with winning and you get parents jumping the fence and punching out the coach or ref.

What say!?

michael


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: School sports are evil!

Good sportsmanship is somthing that is beneficial for children to experience.

But you are, unfortunately, right that a lot of the sportsmanship has gone out of sports in the community (not just school sports, but little league, etc).

We are not teaching children beneficial lessons in an environment that teaches winning at any cost.


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There is too much emphasis on winning, especially at college levels. Everything is just out reason. We place too much emphasis on athletics and not enough on acedemics. We pay the coaches too much in proportion to the other professors.
This is one reason I enjoy high school sports over the pros.. These kids play for the fun and enjoyment while the pros are there for the money...Enterainment, entertainment , entertainment.
Just another sign of the times...Lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.


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I disagree that sports should be completely discontinued, but I have always thought that way too much emphasis is on WINNING, especially in High School sports. It would be different if there were actually morals and true sportsmanship being taught along with the sport. I think that there are also a lot of problems caused by the social order of athletes and cheerleaders in High schools, but I suppose that's for another post!:)


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I think that high school sports are good if kept in the right perspective. The attitudes of the coach are what influence the kids. I suppose it is different at every school. My kids had very positive experiences with school sports. The coaches didn't beat them up if they weren't the best. They just encouraged them.
I did experience that cut throat kind of coaching when my son was 7 and on a soccer league. I didn't agree with it then and I don't agree with it now. If a coach really wants to brutalize a team and push them to win at all costs, then they should have been good enough to coach at a professional level where that is acceptable.


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"then they should have been good enough to coach at a professional level where that is acceptable"

LOL Susnnn! That is hilarious.

I agree with you bunnyman. Schools should be for learning. Schools should not provide every social need. If children want to play sports, they should do that in their free time. They should not get to leave classes for away games and waste other children's time in assemblies and things like that. I played sports in high school and it was fun, and there was no pressure to win (because we never did, I guess our coach was a realist). Playing sports can be really beneficial, but not beneficial enough that schools should sponsor it. Take it out of schools and maybe people will start to get a better perspective on competition overall. I think there should be government-assisted after-school sports & recreation programs for children, but they should not be attached to schools. School sponsorship and administration of sports programs just endows them with way too much importance.


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I love school sports and think there should only be minor changes. March madness is when I really get involve. I guess it goes back to when I was on the state championship team in 1962. That was the only time my alma mater has won the state basketball championship in the boys divisions. So there are the records in which in time may be broken.
I believe training begins with peewees. I believe it pays to have these sports in elementary school. We have had a former Razorback basketball player to help coach our peewees. His son was an outstanding player for our state runner-up team this year at our local school.
You may have kept up with Nolan Richardson's situation. We have a new and exciting coach at the University of Arkansas. We are looking forward to great things. We love our sports in Arkansas. It beats reading about and having to fight a war. There is always another year and it will be with some new faces and it could be a "new" coach... We have already took a liking to you, Coach Heath. We will be in the heat...


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We just got a new basketball coach here at UW too gardenboy. Lorenzo Romar. So next season will be interesting for both of us.

I like college sports. They used to kind of bug me but now that I work for the UW and see the many creative things universities do to get money - well they are the least of the many evils, and the most entertaining one. And universities are designed to perform a huge variety of functions, whereas public schools are not designed for intellectual freedom but for conformity to social values. So when the public schools sponsor something, that act implies an immense value - not a commercial value like pro and college sports, and not a recreational value like parks leagues, but a social and moral value. Sports just don't live up to that value. There is nothing wrong with them but there is just nothing so great about them that they deserve a place in public schools.


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Where I come from, sports and physical activities taught as much or more as the regular classroom. I had agriculture courses and participated in FFA, 4H, senior and junior class plays, basketball, volleyball, softball, judging contests on the district and state levels. I loved the competition and loved going on the trips.
In the FFA we were able to participate in contests ranging from parliamentary procedure to judging livestock, meats, crops, poultry, forestry, farm mechanics, etc.
Sports teach many aspects of life, but the love of money, seems to enter all areas except the classroom. It probably is there too, just not as evident. Okay when it does show up it is very obvious. The children are the ones who have to suffer for it....


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I just read a book by a college basketball coach that really made me understand the value of playing sports to a non-pro-quality athlete.

it has to do with setting goals, with working steadily and doggedly to achieve those goals, with learning how to be part of a team, of coming through on your responsibiity.

I'll look up the name of it again and try to post it this weekend. It's not the most incredibly well-written book (there's nothing wrong w/ it, but it's sorta simplistic prose, which is sort of a benefit--no wading through big words), but I think it would help every parent and every coach to read it.


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I think sports are SO important too for all of the reasons Talley Sue said and more. HOWEVER, I would really like to see them taken out of schools and run by community (Parks and Rec) associations, churches, YMCA, neighborhood associations, etc. I think the line between academics and athletics has become way too blurred. Imagine schools suddenly having all the money they are spending sports now to allocate toward academics!


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sadiesmom, then who will pay for the sports programs run by the community? Chances are, if people are going to have to pay more taxes to park & rec, or make contributions to charitable organizations, they're going to want a lower school tax.

Also, the other big advantage to having sports in school is that it's easy to administer, and not that difficult for every kid to get into. I personally find it difficult to locate the associations, etc., that might offer sports. It's hard to get there. If my kid could be in a soccer league at school, then the school could take her back and forth, etc., and the only looking I would have to do is to find the school.

the only other size of community I have lived in is a very small town, and there as well a sports program is logistically MUCH easier if it's done at a school (even if it's after school hours--the kids area already there, there's no transportation involved, there's a bureaucracy and a system all set up to find and supervise coaches; buses are available already; facilities would have ot be there for physical education, so they can be used instead of being empty after school hours, and a community wouldn't have to build 2 separate basketball courts, etc.)

I just think a lesser emphasis on winning at all costs, and a greater effort on teaching goal-setting, etc., during gym class.

And I do think it's appropriate that gym class should teach sports, rules, leisure activities, etc., as well as provide physical exercise and activity.


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In our small town, many of the sports programs that are offered take place at the schools. I believe that the parks and Rec department pays a small fee to the schools to use the facilities. (Although Parks and Rec supplies all the equipment, etc) In this case the accessability would still be the same as it is in the schools.

Also, parks and rec program-type sports cost a minute fraction of what school programs costs to run: insurance is cheaper, program directors are typically younger recreation majors instead of much higher paid, school-employed master's level athletic directors, coaches are almost always volunteer parents, and umpires and referees are usually junior high and high school kids that get paid a small fee rather than higher paid and benefited employees of school districts and states.
An example: In our town, in the winter junior high age kids can choose from Parks and Rec bascketball or school basketball. Both programs use the exact same facilities. In the Parks and rec version, all the kids who want to play make the team so there are usually around 8 teams every year. In the school supported basketball, the kids have to try out and only a small fraction make it to either the A team or the B team. Parents of the school basketball teams have to pay $100 for uniforms and travel fees and the kids are expected to have certain types of shoes that are above and beyond that cost. Both seasons last 8 weeks. Parks and Rec BB costs $15 and the kids get a shirt, a basketball to keep and an end of the season party.
The parks and Rec director here told me that their program costs 96% less money than the school program.Remember, in the parks and rec version all the kids who want to can play and there are 4 times as many teams/kids participating and it still cost the department 96% less to operate the program--not to mention how much less the parents had to pay. The cost of school sponsored athletics is in fact prohibitive to many parents. (The athletic director in our school, a financially well supported school in a pretty affluent community, told me that all of the athletic programs require some type of fee from the parents.) I truly believe if people realized how much more bang for their buck they were going to get, from the educational system and from community sports programs both, by shelling out a few more dollars every year in their real estate or sales taxes in order to support community athletic programs, they would be all for it.
Although I currently live in a small town, I am in close contact with my friends who still live in the huge city I was raised in. They tell me that the example I have just described is pretty representative of the way things work there, too.


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"it has to do with setting goals, with working steadily and doggedly to achieve those goals, with learning how to be part of a team, of coming through on your responsibiity."

All of these things can be taught in many other ways - ways that contribute more toward the academic goals that are supposedly so important, that this country is doing such a sorry job of meeting.

And all of these things can be taught in sports leagues outside of schools. I don't think anyone is saying that children shouldn't play sports. I think they are saying that sports have no place in schools. Sports teach a lot of important things, but they teach them in an awfully roundabout way. And physical fitness is an important public health goal, but schools are obviously not doing a very good job of keeping kids fit - not good enough that any organization would look at an honest performance evaluation and decide to continue with the program.

The recreational and parks leagues as they are set up now are difficult to find and coordinate with, but if sports were taken out of schools, they would be easier to deal with because they would be the primary source.

Schools already have all the facilities and administrative stuff BECAUSE they have always run the sports themselves. But all those facilities and the logistics and admin cost a lot of money - and they don't benefit the kids equally.


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I agree! The horrors I endured because I was not athletic. Not being picked for teams, being brutalized, kicked, purposely slammed into walls, battered with balls.

If you are going to have required sport, SPLIT THEM INTO LEVELS OF ABILITY LIKE THE OTHER REQUIRED SUBJECTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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SAG1
I recall not being selected for the team when I was in the 7th grade. I remember turned ankles. I twisted my knee at noon one day when playing with one of my students in a game of one on one.
Yes there are injuries... But we love this game.... It beats boxing......and maybe getting your ear bitten off.


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Hi Folks,

Thanks to all who are posting... nice to see ideas being sorted out.

I have to laugh at the "good player" and "we love the game" comments. WTF does that have to do with learning? Part of the stupid jock mentality is that they think because they enjoy the game it has redeeming social value. Will they ever grow up?

School sports are little more then the worship of violence. I see no difference between boxing and football or basketball other then the number of people. I have to laugh at the aging jocks nursing sports injuries that they got in school. What sort of "game" commonly leaves kids with lifetime injuries or worse.

Many of us remember roving packs of jocks picking on the smaller kids. We remember them being given the answers to the exams so they could continue to play. We saw "adults" winking at these sorts of anti-social behaviour.

Probably my worst experience with jocks in school was the day one backed me into a corner to fight as he was egged on by a couple of his team mates. It was so sad because the fellow (Brian E.) was clearly as frightened as I but he couldn't back off because of the bullies behind him. To make a long story short he broke my glasses while I broke his nose. It was a good thing I was a rather small kid or I might have really hurt him. Later his father came over to my house to talk. His dad was so bewildered that his kid could be involved in a fight. I wound up defending Brian's actions to his father, explaining that the real bullies had done that to him as much as me. In school nothing happened to the bullies. They simply laughed it off and said that they were trying to toughen Brian up. After that the principal hated me because I had hurt one of his atheletes. Within a couple weeks after that I was asked to drop out of school until the next year... I did drop and never returned.

I don't know what became of Brian... I hope he went off to a happy and successful life. As for the bullies I know one of them is now doing a life sentence for killing someone. The other bully was in trouble with the law often and I wouldn't doubt that he has done his share of jail time before disappearing from this small farming community. All three were considered "good players". As for me, well I live in a big house rather then at the "big house".

: )

michael


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Michael, I agree with you about the social aspects of sports, I almost think that that is more of a danger than the injuries and bad sportsmanship, and all...psychological trauma is caused by these "jocks" having to PROVE their masculinity, and with females as well...I have a story I will share regarding this topic.
I was a junior in H.S., and the time for Prom was near. My boyfriend (who's HEART was certainly in the right place at the time) got all of his friends to nominate me for Prom Court, which is of course reserved for cheerleaders and pom-pon girls, not REGULAR girls like I was. Well, I was nominated, and it was AWFUL. I was in the bathroom stall, and 3 of the "popular" girls who weren't "picked" came in, and started saying hideous and nasty things about ME because I was nominated for Prom court. The thing is, they didn't even KNOW I was in there, I stayed in that stall and cried like you wouldn't believe. Kids in H.S. can be stupid, and downright MEAN, and they do not understand that their actions and words of TODAY seriously affect someone elses tomorrow. It's sad.


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Michael, I think that a lot is being done right now to change the attitude and mentality of children's sports - obviously it is not all going to work but I think that people are recognizing more that the whole jock thing is stupid. I don't know how old you are but that is what I saw in school (I'm 24) and what I am seeing now with my younger cousins - the image still lives but it is more a feature of teen movies than of real life, for some kids anyway.

I am not trying to say that I think sports have a place in school, because they don't. I am just trying to say that wherever they are happening, people are recognizing that a lot of the attitude and culture that surrounds sports is outdated and they are working to do away with it.

Sports need to be out of school but they still need to have a place in children's lives because this country is getting so overweight, it is disgusting, and so expensive to the health care system. I think less emphasis should be put on competitive sports because they can be intimidating to kids who aren't into them, but for the kids who like them, they are fine. There should just be lots of other options emphasized as well, whether it is hiking, sailing, gymnastics, swimming, whatever. Kids and adults need to get in the habit of being physically active. Personally I played soccer in HS but now the only exercising I do is walking, hiking, camping, swimming, biking and gardening (can you tell I gain weight in the winter). Lots of people, kids and adults, don't want to play team sports but they still need to exercise.

After-school sports (and other activities) also provide a great social service, keeping kids busy and active when they might otherwise be on their own, getting into trouble (like I used to :) or lying comatose in front of the TV.

P.S. You are TRIPPING if you think basketball is no different than boxing. Basketball is beautiful. I can't say much for football. It is pretty dumb. But basketball - it is not about violence, it is about the absence of violence. Players have a physical goal and they have to accomplish it without violence. Beautiful.


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I might agree that basketball is pretty much non-violent. But watching my nieces play a couple of years ago at the JR high level, I would not be able to say that the kids were all taught good sportsmanship. Some of the things that went on were cruel. One example: using racial slurs to try to get another player off guard so you can steal the ball. Why would that be ok?


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I am not tripping... that was last month (at least I know when I'm trippin'). I think boxing is one of the honest sports. At least boxers don't pretend to just play. While basketball is supposed to be a non-contact sport it is amazing how lethal and well placed some of the accidental contact is. An elbow to the ribs or a finger in the eye. Another form of the cheating that has become the norm in school.

Beyond the simple physical contact is the social acceptance of violence, the displacement of academics, the economic class division, and the malplacement of social resources. How could one even begin to calculate the damage done to the meritocratic system that supports our Republic? Indeed, basketball is probably much more damaging to our schools then boxing.

: )
michael

38 if you are wondering


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I agree with much that is wrong with sports in schools. Here in Columbus, Ohio, all sports below high school were dropped from schools over a decade ago due to budget cuts. The city parks & recs and neighborhood assns picked up the slack. My kids play sports through parks & rec and it's great - TOTALLY non-competitive, no score keeping. So far, it's been only positive for us.

I agree that not much sportsmanship is taught in school sports. Maybe it's just the rosy glasses of nostalgia, but I remember basketball being a clean, buy-the-book game when I was in HS (I'm 38). My family went to a HS basketball game last year and it was so DIRTY - intentional fouls, dirty playing, FULL CONTACT - whew, it made me sick. The HSs were two big suburban school in a "rivalry". It was really something.

I think schools should be for learning. At my sons' elementary school, the school moto is "everyone's a winner at Colerain". I love it - they even have a non-competitive Field Day the last week of school, with carnival games and clowns making baloon animals. I remember elementary Field Day as a day of foot races where everyone made fun of you if you were slow. It was awful.

I played HS sports and am happy to say it was a good experience, but like someone said above, it's probably because we were so awful the coach gave up on trying to bully us into being any better.

And, as for the popular jocks and cheerleaders at my HS, one star football player is doing life in prison for a double murder, one has been disbarred for unethtical practice of law, and most are day laborors. I had a great experience with the former captain of the cheerleading squad recently - she waited on my family at Bob Evans (Bob Evans is a restaurant in the Midwest). (I'm not saying I'm too good to wait tables, but I spent my time studying, went to college, and got a good job afterwards.)


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Why throw the baby out with the bath water? Why not work on the problems? Atleast over 15000 must still love boxing? I still like basketball and I know the difference. Sports are all right, it is the people who need fixing. Too many have an attitude problem. It starts in the home and ends there. I have improved in my sportsmanship. I value the officials now. They have a big responsibility and I support them.
I believe if things get so bad that people can not watch a game without showing good sportsmanship they should be required to leave the game.
I am glad we will continue to have sports in our schools in the South. No smoking nor substances on the premises. We will support good sportsmanship and be good examples before our fellowman in most cases. Those who do not live up to the standards will have to face the consequences.


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I agree that sports have gone to a complete extreme, as far as competitiveness goes. But the latest trend of not keeping score, and giving all kids blue ribbons so as not to offend someone takes it a bit too far.

The kids know who won, and are aware of their performance. So it can be a little confusing to the kids. If you want exercise for exercise sake, then do calistenics, or play dodgeball. But if it's a game, there is a score, whether it's officially kept or not.

Reminds me of a story I read, where a mom was helping out in her son's class. The school had adopted a policy of never telling a child that they were incorrect, so as not to hurt feelings. The teacher asked, what is the capital of Argentina, or something like that. A girl said, Mississippi. The teacher said, "That's almost right! Try again!"

Her son looked at her and said, "How is 'Mississippi' almost right?" The point is, the other kids knew that was incorrect, and were totally confused by the teacher saying, "Almost right".

hope I'm not rambling! I think that between the two extremes, there is a happy medium where kids can play games, keep scores, be gracious when they win, be gracious when they don't win, and grow in the process.


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Hmm, well, one of the more determined athletes from my high school is in outer space right now on the space station; she was the American on Expedition 5. The quarterback of my HS football team (also a basketball star) is a computer programmer at TRW. Plenty of kids who were NOT in sports are nurses' ides at the local nursing home.

Do you think eliminating team sports is going to eliminate bullies? Do you think eliminating team sports is going to eliminate favortism? It'll just shift it around a little. In my school, some of the smart kids got away with stuff instead of the athletes.

And I'm w/ TREKaren, it's too far to eliminate keeping score from sports--one of the lessons kids should get from competitive situations is HOW TO LOSE, and HOW TO WIN.

You think shifting sports to Parks & Rec will solve the problem? Well, maybe the clumsy kids won't have to be on the same team as the graceful kids, but what will happen then is that the "A" league will get the premiere practice times, better equipment, more press coverage, etc. And there will still be pushy coaches (expect now without a principal and a school board to call them on the carpet about it, or to set an "educational"

I think the problems that exist in school sports exist because the grownups in charge are crummy and have abdicated their teaching responsibility.

And where *I* live, if there were no sports in school, my kids wouldn't get to play them at all. You think parks & recreation doesn't have budget cuts?


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Lawsuits are the only way to solve the problem of bullies. Sports have nothing to do with it. Schools need to learn that in loco parentis means you protect the kid, not just from strangers but from the other kids. They teach kids that they can't be abusive to teachers, but they can do anything they want to other kids, as long as they don't draw blood.

If I had been treated in the workplace the way I was treated in school, I would be a retired millionaire right now. Girls are sexually harassed constantly. When boys are allowed to do that kind of thing in school, it is no wonder they grow up to be jerks. Same with jocks who bully, non-jocks who bully, boys, girls, anyone. Teachers need to quit tolerating it. Schools need to be shown that it is unacceptable and if they allow it, they will suffer.

P.S. If basketball games are that violent, they need better refs. Kids will get away with what they can to win the game. Kids will get away with what they can, period. Teach them that if they foul, they will get called. Two flagrants and you're out. It is the responsibility of ADULTS to teach CHILDREN how to play games nicely. It is not because the games are inherently violent. Kids will get in fights over anything.

But once again I have to mention, sports are fun, and good for your body, but school is for your mind. I wonder how other countries compare to the US in the emphasis placed on school sports? I bet that the countries with the best schools don't have anything like the school sports system we've got here.


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Sportmanship? In this country, it ends up being aggressive bullying or deceptive oneupmanship. Success equals strength and wealth (and whatever means you use to get the latter are OK). It's an excuse for males to act like obnoxious jerks, and it starts in grade school.


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Males? Hmmm... it's not a gender thing completely. Have you ever seen cheerleader tryouts? That was bad even back in my day! And more recently, as I said above, my nieces' basketball days were fraught with dog-eat-dog non-sportsmanship. My nieces and a few of their teammates rose above it, and took the good parts of the team sports away with them as they grew, not the bad. Luckily!


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Sounds like "brats" to me and rising above them.


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Where were you guys when I was rallying for the "Women's History Month" awhile back???:) I don't know how to express my opinions on gender roles without taking up A LOT of space here, except I will say that because teenagers today are socialized in gender specific ways, through media influence especially, I believe that THAT is what causes most, (like 80%) of the negative behavior, the harassment, the competitiveness, the bullying, etc. Society screams at kids about expectations of them, and it screams the social consequences if they do not abide.


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Matter of choices and seeing the reason or advantages in making the right choices......To do good or to do evil....That is the choice...


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Yes! Being that religion is based on faith rather then reason you certainly must agree that it is a poor foundation for making the right choices.

LOL!

michael


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Without faith it is impossible to please God. To me faith and reason go together.


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all choices are made based on a faith of some sort.

You act because you believe.

You believe that cheating is wrong, or you believe that cheating hurts other people, or that it hurts you.

And so you act because you believe.

You wear a seat belt because you believe it will keep you safe. If reason were part of it, there wouldn't be people who drive without them on.


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Sorry to get off of the faith subject, but I really do have a sports in school question and I'm hoping someone can help with an answer. Do any other countries offer sports IN school? I'm giving a presentation this weekend and I need to know, but I can't find anything online. As far as I know, the answer is NO. I work with foreign high school students and not one that I've met from either South America, Europe, or Asia has played sports IN school. The only sports available to them are in sports clubs after school. Thanks in advance for any help.


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This is one reason dd goes to a private school. She gets PE - they have calisthenics. Nothing competitive at all.

If parents want to have their kids involved in sports, there are plenty of extracurricular activities they can become involved in.

In a time when most schools (at least in CA) don't have money to pay for classes in art, foreign languages or music, spending money on baseball and soccer is a crime.

LISCUTE, I believe schools in the UK do include sports as part of the curriculum.


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I love the idea of sports at all levels in schools. It would be fantastic for all involved. However, it would require a vast change in the coaching staff! At present, most of the coaches I know are frustrated, washed out wanabe jocks (only one recent exception!).

I have a son, brilliant boy, rising Sr. He CHOSE to drop out of track giving up pole-vaulting, a sport he loves because the head coach "sucked the life and fun" out of it. The boy volunteered to do any other jump event, offered to run hurdles or sprints if needed by the team; the head coach insisted in running him in the distance events. The boy found no joy in long distance, and the field had plenty of participants. When my son asked why long distance and not the other events he was told "because that is what you want to do and you need to learn I'm in charge". So, he ran the event once, using it as a warm up rather than trying to WIN. The next assult/insult was refusing to allow the boy to attend the study sessions for his 8 AP tests. To this he was told "the commitment to track should be before your academic goals". NO!

I must say at this point the jump coach took my son aside and told him to come back next year, coaching staff would be different and he would welcome him back with open arms AND "if you need any assistance with your review or someone to go over any information with, call me".

I can honestly say we are all looking forward to the next track season!


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WOW! Five years and still going! While I'm very much against school sponsored sports (and religion) I hope this thread will simply spark a little thought on the subject.

Susan... I'm very sorry to hear your son was "coached". Bullies love the coach title as it gives them an air of authority. Hapless targets are caught trying to succeed and made vulnerable by attempting to be part of the team. As your son noted bullies destroy what part of sports is enjoyable and good. A person in your son's situation should be educated about a bullies behaviours to cut the damage to a minimum. Bullies often select targets because the target is enjoying success. It is a mistake to think bullies pick on failures... they like to knock down the winners. Your son should take being bullied as a sign that he was doing well. That won't bring back the season this year. Probably more important to see that his ego was not damaged by an out of control "adult". A talk with him on the subject is not only in order but should be followed up with an eye for lasting damage.

Bullies should be watched for at all children's activities. Not just the other children but the adults that never grew up.

: )
michael

Wow!... five years. I'm still a fool but and older wiser fool.


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Not just sports, but sometimes music and academics as well. My DH, my kids' stepfather was school board chair while teachers' union negiotiations were on. DD was dropped from first-chair flute to sixth chair. DS dropped from an A to an F in a required English class. DD quit band after being in it for 7 years. DS had the principal and superintendent intervene and he ended up with the A he had earned. Bullies is the perfect word for the two involved.


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