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paddling at school

Posted by
allen
(allen_63@hotmail.com) on
Fri, Apr 13, 01 at 23:21

do you think paddling should be used as means of disipline?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: paddling at school

I'm hoping you mean a canoe, in which case the answer is sure. If you mean a human being, not ever!!!!


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RE: paddling at school

I do not use corporal punishment on my daughter and neither should anyone else. Discipline is a form of disciple and when you strike a person as punishment, what are you teaching them? Might makes right? Scare them into submission. My child is very well behaved and we've learned that teaching respect is what is effective.


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RE: paddling at school

I really didn't know there was any place left that had paddling at schools.
Lynn


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RE: paddling at school

They don't have corporal punishment primarily because the Education Departments didn't want to spend half it's budget fighting court cases against the ridiculuously indulgent parents we have today.


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RE: paddling at school

They don't have corporal punishment because intelligent people discovered that it is demeaning, abusive and ineffective punishment. The only indulgent parents I have seen are the ones that indulge their anger and lack of self-control by hitting defenseless kids and justifying it as discipline.


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Although I understand that some of you are against spanking totally, I think part of the problem is that the only stuff you see is when a parent is angry - in the grocery store or somewhere and spanks out of frustration. That is wrong I would agree. Unfortunately you never get to see the discipline that takes place at home - it is done not in anger, but in love after explaining the reason etc. Leslie, just because there are people who would disagree with you doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that they are not intelligent. You say that it is not effective and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. There are many people who would disagree. There are many prominent leaders - very intelligent -- who could tell stories of being disciplined and would tell you themselves they are better people for it. Lets not call each other names just because we disagree. Marcia


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Marcia, I agree that we should not call each other names - not sure who you are referring to with your comment, but I did not call anyone names.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, though the majority of the literature today would support my view. Yes, I'm sure that there are intelligent people who got hit as children and think they are better for it - though I have never heard anyone say that they believed that. If they say they are better for being disciplined, we all know that is true, but that DOES NOT mean being hit.

And I'm sorry, but no parent hits a child out of love. That is a trite phrase that justifies their lack of control. Physically assaulting a child is not love, no matter how you try to couch it.


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80% of spouse abusers were abused as children. That means their parents or someone else hit them. When you're 5 and your butt hurts, it doesn't seem like love. It seems like abuse, which is what it is. It teaches the children that in order to settle a disagreement, you use violence. That's not a good thing to teach children.

I'd never send my nonexistant children to a school where they could be hit, paddled, whatever. I wouldn't even train my dogs using punishment, only positive reinforcement. If a dog can be well-behaved without being hit, you can bet a child can.


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No, I don't think paddling should be allowed in school. There are people who would abuse that power over the students.

I can clearly remember paddles hanging in my elementary and junior high school classrooms, though, and I am not that old (30). So only one generation ago there was a completely different attitude. My son is in 2nd grade, I would not send him to school if I walked in his classroom to see a paddle hanging on the wall. At the same time, I remember my 2nd grade teacher having a paddle on his wall with his name on it. A paddle was part of the teacher's classroom supplies, as common as an apple and a bell on the desk. You could buy them with cute sayings and decorations on them as a gift. Seems like another world the attitude has changed so much.

I was never on the receiving end of the paddle. But it seems to me that the kids who were continued to cause trouble no matter how many times they were paddled. Sure scared the heck out of the rest of though. A paddling was an event and distracted the class with gossip for the rest of the day.


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I have spanked my now 11 year old daughter, occasionally. She seems well adjusted.

I feel paddling at school should not be allowed, unless there are strict controls on the circumstances & administration of the paddling. It should only be used after all other methods have been tried & found not to work with that child.

I remember a little girl in my 2nd grade class who got "taken to the closet" at least once a day. Why? The teacher didn't like the girl & she irritated her. THAT WAS WRONG!


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RE: paddling at school

There was just an article in the Durham Herald-Sun that 23 states still allow paddling at school. Pretty ridiculous.
If I had kids and ANYONE hit them, you can bet I'd have them locked up so fast... Along with anyone and everyone in power who knew about it, condoned it, agreed with it, wrote the policy for it, and every politician who refused to have the law changed would have one heck of a campaigner against him/her. Luckily, I don't have kids. The world isn't good enough for them, at least not this country.


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RE: paddling at school

I believe that corporal punishment is a good thing.
It is quick
It is undeniably a punishment.
It does not compromise other activities.

I believe that many people just divide the discussion on punishment into two areas. Corporal and non corporal. They say that all corporal punishment is bad or abusive. I believe that there is an extreme where corporal punishment can become abusive. I believe that when we are talking about corporal punishment in schools that we are not talking about abuse. Corporal punishment in schools can be implemented with sufficient safeguards to ensure that it does not become abusive.

Let me give you an example where I believe corporal punishment is better than grounding. My teen plays a sport that has training after school a couple of evenings a week. Lets say that the teen did something that I would normally ground them for doing. Now There is a contradiction developing. What happens with regard to their commitment to the sport. I believe that if they have committed to play for a team then they must keep that commitment but if I ground them I am saying OK that commitment is not very important or at the very least I have to weigh up which is more important, the grounding or the sporting commitment. By using corporal punishment, that conflict of interest does not arise. The child is punished, the child gets the message that what they did was wrong. Every one gets on with their lives.


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Oh, Meghene, you can't just have anyone locked up. Get real.


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Sure you can, if you call it assault on a minor.


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PUHLEEZE! You would hit a teenager? THERE'S a great way to teach them how to resolve a problem. In an age where we are trying (well, I guess some of us are) to teach our kids that there are ways to handle problems and resolve conflict that do not require physical abuse, assault or endangerment, your solution is to hit them?

Hope they hit you back some day when you do something wrong!


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RE: paddling at school

Interesting logic Haydn, I guess.


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Well believe it or not paddling was allowed in schools around here up until the 80's. Then because of the fear of court cases etc. it was stopped.

I think a majority of teahers in this state would love to see it reinstated. Anytime they had to send a child to the principal's office, the child knew they had really pushed the teacher, class and everyone else to the limit. And guess what, many times the parents would say NOTHING to the principal of teacher!! Except for "What did Johnny do?" "Oh he did that?" "I will have to have a talk with him at home-I don't want him acting that way at school."

Most of the time instead of being upset with the teacher or principal they would be concerned and upset with their child that has misbehaved so bad. And either they were disciplined in some way at home or scolded , so when they returned to school they were more unlikely to repeat the misbehavior. Maybe the good behavior came strickly out of fear of the spanking, but it worked!!

See, how unruly the schools are now? The kids know that no one can paddle them- or hardly discipline them about their behavior. They know that their parents would be mad at the teacher and principals. They also sometimes even have parents come to the school and complain that they yelled at their poor child. This happened when a 13 yr. old cursed the teacher and she screamed at him to stop, it hurt his feelings!! Some are spoiled and know they can get away with anything. I am not speaking of -hear say- but have heard this straight from the horse's (Teacher's) mouth. (I meant no insult to teacher saying they have mouths like a horse LOL!)
Lynn


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RE: paddling at school -Adding small comment

YIPES I know the reply about sounds like I am saying that teachers have mouths like horses. Didn't mean that at all! I of course don't think a teacher has a mouth like a horse :-))
~Lynn~


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There has been a definite link established between people who are aroused by "bondage and discipline" and who were "paddled" as a child.

"Paddled" doesn't that sound innocuous? It has a kind of baby sound. It is really a form of a beating.

In past centuries, it was okay under the law for a man to beat his wife- as long as the club he used was not thicker than his wrist. Now who supports that today? (Maybe OJ Simpson.)So if it's not okay to beat a wife, why is it okay to beat a child?

When my grandmother was on her deathbed, my grandfather, his eyes ful of tears, said "Anna, we were married for 65 years and I never laid a hand on you in anger."
She sat straight up and with fire she replied, "And it's a damn good thing for you that you didn't."


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Paddlings and beatings are not the same thing. Many people respect retired principals, they didn't get their joy from paddling-just were helping to raise some children that needed discipline. Most principals never beat their wifes and were law abiding citizens-the same goes for retired teachers.
~Lynn~


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RE: paddling at school

My favorite saying of all time about punishment goes something like this: If the punishment you choose for your child or student does not bring you one inch closer to the desired behavior, you have wasted your time and proven nothing. Before you give out a punishment think about it and make sure that it is bringing you closer to your desired result. IF the student is talking out of turn, practice patience. If the student is coming to class late, practice being on time. If they are rude to other students, practice being nice. Within those realms you can be creative as you want with the individual activities to obtain your goal.

If you read that and say to yourself, "hmmm, that makes sense." Then the thought of hitting a child as a reinforcement goes out the window. Hitting proves nothing except who can hurt someone else. It brings you absolutely no closer to the desired behavior than driving your car into a brick wall to prove your car is moving and the wall is not.

As a teacher and parent I firmly believe that paddling-beating (yes they are the same) do not belong in school. Striking a child out of anger or "love" is still striking a child. Don't get me completely wrong about this subject. I was raised in a home where a form of punishment meant a belt on the rear. Am I better for it? You don't know and I don't know either. Whose to say that I may have been president if that one time I did not get hit and had received a different punishment. My parents usually lost patience with me and the next step was settling it quickly which meant a belt. I love them but know they could have done better. I didn't know that until I became a teacher and began to witness different types of reinforcement that worked.

In my classroom it is known that if I tell a student that we need to practice following directions, it doesn't mean they are gonna get beat, it means that Mr. C is going to find an interesting group of "things to do" to help that student understand. Notice I did not threaten violence or paddling. I come up with a series of lessons that are not difficult and are designed only to show the student who is in charge. Things like moving a trashcan to the other side of the room, or moving a stack of books exactly as I say or starting over. They do not harm the child, but they get their attention. The students that end up practicing with me do not do things like talk out of turn once or forget to raise their hand. The kids that end up working with me after class are those kids who continually push the edge to see if the teacher will fall off. This method also allows a teacher to put a little time between them and the action so that anger is not part of the punishment phase. Violence teaches violence, discipline teaches discipline.


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Why is it that everyone seems to think that all parents spank their kids out of anger?

I have a 5 year old and he is spanked. He is not spanked for every little thing he does. For example, I wouldn't spank him for not picking up his toys, talking back, or not being polite. But there are times I feel it is necessary. (i.e. running out in front of a car, showing disruptive behavior at school for no reason, etc.) Before he is spanked, we have a very long talk. We find out what happened, why it happened, how he felt before and after it happen and explain to him why he is geting a spanking. After he is spanked, we discuss why he was spanked. That is not spanking out of anger. And alot of people fuss about 'corporal punishment'. Call it what you want to, but that is a little extreme. I can't say spanking as a child made me a better person, but I'm still here and I don't have any bruises on my behind from it. I would rather my parents spank me, than grow up thinking I can do anything I want (and basically get away with it) and have the law use forms of 'corporal punishment' to punish (or should I say 'spank') me.

Every child is different. Some things work on some kids, that don't work on others. Some kids feelings are hurt by the idea of 'time out' and others laugh at the thought of only having to sit still a few minutes. What about situations in which the teacher has absolutely no contol and the child kicks/hits her on occasion. What is he/she (the teacher)to do then? These things do happen in schools now. I can not recall even one occasion where anyone in any of my schools (elementary, middle, or high) threatend
to hit or kick a teacher. That was completely unheard of. Times have changed.

Also, it is quite apparent, there are alot of kids who no longer have respect for authority. I wonder why? Going to the principals office is no big deal and some are not even frightened by the police.

There are parents who feel that their child does no wrong.
Some of those parents may want to take another look.


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Megehan..when you are five and your parents don't but you the toy you just had a tantrum over it doens't feel like love either but just like a spanking it is not abuse.


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I don't think paddling in school should be allowed any more than caning should be allowed in Singapore. I absolutely would not allow anyone to physically discipline my children.


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If my children needed a paddling in school I believe they should have gotten one. I believe they did get some as I recall. I got some paddlings when I went to school and I got another when I got home. My parents rule was if you got a paddling in school you were going to get another when you got home. I did not get that many in school. Most of my whippings were at home and I remember some were by a switch. (peach tree switch).
Why is there no discipline in many homes today? You need to start when they are babies. Train up children when they are young and when they are old they will not depart from it.
I would dare say there is lot less paddling of children by their parents today and alot more crime. Why? They get most of their education from movies and television.


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Check the following link http://www.john14-6.org/ChildTraining.htm
This teaches the importance of the parents disciplining their children. Read and study your Bible and see what it teaches. It is God's guidebook for mankind.


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Quite interesting website.


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Other sites of interest to this subject I have found are:

http://www.aap.org/advocacy/corpchrt.htm
http://www.corpun.com/uss00106.htm#7229
Essence-WiseWords


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RE: paddling at school

It is a PARENT'S decision whether to use spanking as a form of discipline. Not the school. Not the church. Not the doctor. Not anyone else besides the parents.

Therefore, I do not think it is appropriate for school officials to spank my child. I will make the decision about whether, and when my child will be physically disciplined.

Mommabear


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RE: paddling at school

I would never allow my son to be paddled. Have you seen the calibur of teachers they have out now!!! There are still some really great teachers out there - my son has one now. But, some people that I knew in school are teachers and I would not let them babysit my kid for a couple of hours. There are a lot of teachers that show favortism to some kids and you can tell they just don't like others. I go on most of my son's field trip and see how some of the teachers are - they would be dangerous with a paddle. Paddling in my son's school would cause a lot of problems. I am pretty sure that there would be several confrontations by angry parents.........including me!


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IMSO:
Classical conditioning. It works.
Child acts badly. Child feels pain. Child remembers that pain next time child thinks about acting badly. Child does not act badly. (obviously a very simplistic analysis of the more involved process, but that's it in a nutshell)

Love is not a factor.


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Hi onehappymeal,
Could you give some examples of classical conditioning? What would you do to the child when he or she misbehaves? Would it entail paddling?
Hi LeiReed,
I agree with your ideas. You seem to have had some experience in teaching at a public school. You can really tell the difference in children by their homelife. Good parents and good teachers help develop good children who help make up good schools.


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BTW, when I was growing up, teachers did not paddle. Not at any of my schools.

Only the principal, and only if it was a serious offense. I tell you though, that paddle hanging on the wall was a very effective deterrent.


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When I was in school, we had "The Strap." Like TREKaren, just knowing the strap was punishment for misbehaviour was enough of a deterrent (for most kids). Do I think it should still be used today? No. Not because it is wrong and ineffective, but because today's child is likely to come to school the next day and blow the teacher away with a sawed-off shotgun.

I am blessed with well-behaved children. I haven't had to physically discipline my children much - I can count on one had the number of times for all 3 children. Usually, an explanation and a mild threat (no dessert for you, etc.) is good enough. But when I did use physical discipline, it was always a spanking on the butt with my hand. Once across the face when my then 5 y.o. came home from school one day and told me to f*#% off (we had previously had many discussions about why such language is unacceptable). I have never and would never use an object against my child.

While classical conditioning is enough for the four-legged animal, the human child needs an explanation in order to reconcile the behaviour with the discipline and learn from it. So, after the spanking, we talk about why.


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I always thought that grounding got better results than paddling. I also say if we have paddling since it is "tradition," then we should also have people sold into slavery and not allow women to vote. Get with the program everyone, this is 2002 for god's sake!!!!!!


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Have you checked the following link? Check it out.
http://www.john14-6.org/ChildTraining.htm
I have found this site to be very educational and beneficial. Have you wondered why of all the problems in the world today? Could it be we have gotten away from the Bible and what is pleasing to God? I say absolutely. May we repent and turn back to God's will and way.
May God Bless and may you seek His guidance in all your endeavors.


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bimmertodd,
I'm 'with the program'. What does 2002 hold for our schools? An environment where, with all the political correctness, and giving children more 'self-esteem', teachers and principals have lost some of their authority in the eyes of the children. If a teacher fails a child, the parents sue. If a principal calls a conference to discuss behavior issues, the parent defends the child.

I'm not saying that paddling is the answer. But in the past two decades, we took away not only the ability for principals to paddle, but the ability for teachers to fail, the ability for educators to discipline. All in the assumption that parents should do the parenting. But many parents have failed in this area. So paddling is gone, but nothing is there in its place.

I think everyone should at least admit that the ability of schools to educate, and the abiltiy of children to learn, has diminished over the past 10 years or so. How do teachers and principals keep discipline in the schools? If not paddling, then what is in its place?


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TREKaren,
You bring up some interesting facts. And they hold so much truth in them.


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TREKaren,
I believe you are referring to the general situation in many schools. Some schools can still use the paddle. Some can still have prayer and Bible study. It is a matter of choice and making those choices.
I believe some schools have improved because of the involvement of the community. Everyone working for common goals for the common good. It depends on the ones involved.


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I do not think public schools should have prayer or bible study. Whose prayers would they say? Whose bible would they study?

Mommabear


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Where is the evidence that schools have gotten any worse over the years? My grandpa was in school from 1915 - 1927, my mom from 1960 - 1973 and me from 1982 - 1995. The three of us had lots of talks about our respective experiences. It seems to me that in every single situation, I was far better off in the supposedly terrible modern schools than they were back in the golden days of spanking (and smacking knuckles with rulers).

That is just anecdotal; I would love to see some statistics about how bad schools have gotten. I think that the view that people have of schools as so terrible is just a product of too much awful local "news" reporting and people's bizarre desire to romaticize the past.

Kind of OT, but there is a wonderful book called "The Way We Never Were," in which the author takes the nostalgic images everyone has of how American families supposedly used to be, and looks at the demographics and other facts and debunks those myths.

People fall into this trap of thinking that everything was better in the past - schools, families, politics - and now we have all these awful problems. But we have always had awful problems. People just didn't talk about them as much then, and have forgotten about them (or tried to forget) since. I for one would never trade the social problems of today for the social problems of any other era - or the schools of today for the schools of the past.


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I read stories in our local paper often about how teachers are afraid to fail students for fear of angry parents complaining and getting them fired.

Parents who have assisted in classrooms tell of teachers who will not say, "I'm sorry, that answer is incorrect." They have to say, "Wow, the capital of Mississippi is not China, but you sure are close! Try again!"

My dad went to substitute teacher training this past fall, and they told him not to touch a student even if the student was having a serious medical seizure or something like that. There is no exception to the no touching. They feel that the legal ramifications preclude telling teachers to use common sense in each individual situation.

And of course, I live in the county where the infamous Tweety Bird keychain incident got a student suspended last year.

I know what the worst things that happened in my school years were. And they were far less violent than the things you hear about now. The pot smokers in my day were not the cool kids. No one wanted to hang out with them. Now, the coolest, most cleancut kids are the ones who are into drugs. (not antecdotal, this I have seen first hand).

Things in the school are very different now, than they were in the 70's. Back then, my teachers would fail a student if their grades weren't good enough, principals would suspend students without worrying that the parents would sue the school system, Teachers would tell you if the answer is wrong, and we knew we were there to learn, not have our self-esteem inflated.


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TREKaren, you are a wise woman, and I agree with you 100%.

The school SYSTEM (i.e. curriculum, equal accessability for all, etc.) may not have been the greatest "back then" but the kids were taught discipline and respect for authority in addition to reading, writing, and arithmetic. This, in my opinion is a very important lesson. I think that's what was better about it, and I would not hesitate to send my kids to a school more like those "back then."


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Hmmm. Nearly every college and university in the country has a teaching school. I'll bet that every single one of the top research universities has a separate college of education with dozens of phds researching public schools in this country. Yet the only evidence you can cite about schools being worse now is totally anecdotal (even things you see first hand are anecdotes).

Sorry, but you thinking that the cool kids now are the ones who smoke pot and when you were in school, smoking pot wasn't cool - that is not evidence. That is anecdotal.

I would believe studies saying that children today spend ___% less time in school, or ____ amount of children commit assaults on other children at school, or ____ amount of teachers rate their job satisfaction lower than it was ____ years ago, or schools have ____ less facilities or ____ more children per classroom. That is evidence. The garbage local TV news and local papers do not report statistics. They report incidents that get paranoid parents to watch in horror.

I agree that no-touching policies are a little extreme. But I would rather not have my child touched by a teacher at all than have him or her touched inappropriately by a teacher.


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TREKaren

What is this?

"And of course, I live in the county where the infamous Tweety Bird keychain incident got a student suspended last year....."

I guess I missed it entirely.


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I haven't heard of the Tweety Bird keychain incident. Could I be informed? Who thinks our morals have improved overall as a whole? Who thinks we have better movies and better tv shows to watch today than we did in the 1950's and l960's. Go figure. Our children very seldom will be any better than their parents or leaders before them unless they learn from someone else's mistakes. How many times does that happen?
I would love to be a teacher again, if I got to choose my students. I would want them young (5-9 years old) and coming from good home environments.


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Well, I respect your religious opinion gardenboy, but I don't agree at all. And GOD help us if you were teaching young children again, because anyone who believes that physical pain is in "God's word" or whatever should NOT be around children ever!!! I DID go to your john4-16 website and I personally found it disturbing, now I don't feel so bad sending people to read Alfie Kohn!!!!!Religion belongs in the home, discipline is (sometimes unfortunately) up to the parents and teacher's should NEVER punish or "teach lessons" to children using their strength and power or paddles or whatever, bet there's some pretty interesting research done on this topic!!!!!!!!


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The tweety-bird keychain thing was, a girl brought a wallet to school with a chain on it, you know how some people wear chains clipped to their wallets, in the back pockets, and the chain hangs on their hip and clips to their belt loop. The chain can hold keys, and it also lets you get your wallet out and use it and be sure you won't lose it, and also you can't be pickpocketed.

Anyway a young girl, junior high I think, was suspended for bringing that to school because they thought it could be used as a weapon. Ridiculous.

But it doesn't prove that schools are any worse! It proves that people are more paranoid, and they PERCEIVE schools to be worse, so they make ridiculous rules and cause big incidents that get reported nationally, not because they are NEWSWORTHY, but because they are ridiculous and they make everyone chatter about the state of things today.

Arkansasgardenboy, if you judge by movies and tv, it might look like morals are worse than they were in the 50s and 60s. But movies and tv don't represent the things that actually went on. People still had a bunch of sex and comitted a bunch of crime. Plus, there was legal segregation! It was mainstream to believe that non-white races were inferior. We still have lots of problems. But the 1950s are no standard to hold ourselves to. Leave it to Beaver is not a documentary.


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If I find any actual numbers, I will let you know. But it is hard to quantify something like -- the level of political correctness and focus on the self-esteem of the child in 1999 as compared to 1979. And I don't know whether it makes for better or worse scores on standardized tests.

I do know, that it reduces the level of authority that the principals and teachers hold in the eyes of the children. I guess it's the generation gap, a bit, also, because the lack of respect for elders I see now that I didn't see as much of then, could be attributed to the rose-colored glasses I still wore in those days. But some things I see chldren say and do now are horrifying.

And what better evidence than antecdotal, when it's our own young generation we are talking about. Should we wait until they are grown and have children of their own, so we can publish comparison studies to see if their experience was statistically better or worse?


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Well school in general have gotten worse. Sometimes it is hard to realize if your child is going to a great school and you are living in "Paradise". Bad school systems have gotten worse when it comes to discipline, and teachers aren't allowed to do much about it at times. The child can say what they please, attack the child, if they please. Many times their rights are upheld more than those of the teacher.

Now ,if you have children that are labeled "Emotional problem child" this child is allowed to say and do as they please, this is the truth- because of their emotional problems they have had in the past!! Parents are more out to worry about the teacher's behavior then they are their own child's behavior.

Parent: "Why did you yell at Johnny"
Teacher: "Well he was cursing at me and wouldn't sit down" The villian here sometimes turns out to be.....The teacher(?)
Even though they were just trying to do their job.
So sad, Johnny mother doesn't care that her son/child has so respect for the teacher and no one disciplines Johnny. He learns in Life..he can do what he pleases. Of course later this will present problems when Johnny has to live in the Real world. And the parents will then begin to wonder- why is this happening to their child? Seen it, many times as I have a few grown kids. Johnny lands in jail, and the parents are astonished!!

This does go on at bad school, fair schools, and at some of the best.

I really find it hard to believe a teacher as someone said in a reply about about their father saying the schools weren't worse.He must be one of the few"Lucky" teachers that teach in the "Paradise" school system.

AND even though we don't want to hold "Leave it to Beaver" up to as a standard to be met, we have to have some type of standard.

These and other problems like Johnny having fits (not seizures) -fits- about not getting his way and striking out at other students (in high school as well) this does happen. You might not hear about this happening but it does!! Johnny is no longer sent to Reform school sometimes , he might be suspended.
That doesn't help Johnny - He enjoys the days out of school at home-Wow like an unforseen "Snowday". Usually he is allowed to play Nitendo and his CD 's and pile up on the couch watching the tube eating Nacho chips and sipping coke or Pepsi!!

Sometimes the schools are reluctant to tell parents about these situations, they want the parents to think everything is on the Up and Up. And are closed mouthed about any negitive news being told their school.

Studies show that child behavior in school as a general population is a lot worse than it was years ago.

Sometimes as I said before -you may not know about it.

There are some school where parents are more inclined to care about their children's behavior also.
So, you may just be seeing greener pastures, while there are weeds on the other side of the fence.


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RE: paddling at school

I used television as one example. There are others. There are so many things children can get into today because so many say it's okay to do this or that. What's wrong with doing this or that? I never heard of anyone using dope when I was in school. What about now? Today some of the parents are growing it in their homes and selling it and using it. I am using this example because this has happen at our local school in rural America by some of my former students.
There are children within 5 miles of me who have gotten killed in an automobile accident due to not listening to their parents and there have been those who committed suicide due to drinking and doing drugs? What was missing in their lives? Had they made the right choices they could very well be living today. This is real pain.
My son could have gotten killed when he turned my truck over trying to miss a deer that had run out in front of him. God spared him. He was trying to rush home probably driving too fast on a gravel road. Wonder what the outcome would have been had he been drinking or on dope? He lived to be taught a great lesson on driving and on living. I still have the old truck with bashed in door as a reminder. Thank God he was not under the influence of alcohol or any other drug. He would have probably been just another statistic. A dead one.


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RE: paddling at school

Arkansasgardenboy:

How old are you? I am 36 and there were plenty of dope smokers when I went to school (graduated HS 1983). Their parents DID NOT approve. I doubt today's parents approve either. Teens have ALWAYS rebelled a bit against authority and I don't think it was any different when you were a child.

Thank G@d your son is ok.

Mommabear


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RE: paddling at school

Mommabear,
I am old enough to be your father. You know I rebelled before I was a teenager but I got whipped with a switch and a belt from my parents and I was not abused. I had done wrong and I was punished for misbehaving and I am thankful I had parents who love me enough to correct me and punished me for being stuborn, disrespectful, and just disobedient.
I have known some parents of former students who did not look out for the best interests of their children. They did not discipline their children when they were young and when the children got to be teenagers they were not able to control their children at all.
Some parents are doing all kinds of wrongful acts. Kids are turned loose too soon today. Have you ever heard of so many mothers who are killing their children as they are now? (abandoning, abortion, etc.) What about divorce rates? Have they come down lately?
As soon as someone compiles a list of these "paradise schools" please send me a copy. I know not all is bad. I know we have a lot of room for improvement.
My wife still teaches and she enjoys it. My oldest daughter is a teacher and she enjoys it. My wife can tell you about disciplining children. She has had and still has the respect of three generations of students.


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RE: paddling at school

Well the situation with drugs has increased. And parents with grown children do know that all in all some children are rebelling worse then children did 25-30 yrs. ago or so. Drugs are more universal then they once were. It is according to where you live too. I am 10 yrs. older than some folks here, and didn't know a whole lot of kids that did the drug scene. I have younger siblings that saw it more prevalent. I have grown children that can tell you some true tales that you wouldn't believe and we don't live in the inner city either.

In the 70's places like Ireland did not have drug problems. I saw a show where a family took there son (they lived in Hollywood of course and could afford to do this) out in the country in Ireland and therefore he was nowhere around drugs as they lived in the country side in Ireland. He eventually kicked the habit.

Of course this wouldn't work now as Ireland has drugs. It would break your heart to see the kids -young adults-that are homeless in Dublin and on drugs. It is also in the countryside of Ireland. There is no haven that is drug free now from drugs- where you would want to raise your family, I don't think.

So, drugs are more prevalent and rebelling more heard of. Everyone knows that teen rebel, but when they become bad drug addicts at a young age sometimes 13 or so, and there are more of them, and more type of drugs out there then there was years ago. I don't know how anyone could possibly say that things aren't worse. Some of the drug types that are on the street nowadays are not all that expensive. So, maying it easier for kids to aquire.

Well I see "Paddling at school" as the topic while I am typing, and here I am replying to something that has been brought up about "Drugs" :-)
But we must open out eyes to the problems that are around us, everywhere. Sometimes we aren't aware of the problems because we have young children or no children and haven't really kept in touch with the drug sitaution of teens and young adults, and of course now we have middle age to + age persons with drugs problems.


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RE: paddling at school

It is like the oil change commercial, you can pay me now or pay me later. There will be a payday someday. For some it is sooner rather than later. You will reap what you sow. So keep sowing the good seed, watering, weeding, cultivating, and fertilizing.


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RE: paddling at school

I don't know how you guys can live with such a dismal view of the world. I look at the things I did in my (totally average) schools and think that things are going really great. I helped hatch salmon in the school's hatchery, argued a mock trial case on second amendment law in front of a state supreme court justice, helped track cougar habitat in my county, took college classes in legal research, (barely) helped build a full-sized, working electric car, used email when less than 1/2 of 1% of americans had ever used it before, learned desktop publishing, and there were all kinds of other great things available to me. It seems to me that schools just get better and better. Now there are great alternative schools available to kids who don't like the regular educational methods - and they learn the same things, they just learn them in a way that works better for them. They are so lucky to have these things available, and to have teachers who believe in pushing the envelope and finding new ways to help students learn.

Here is an idea that won't win me any friends on this board. Maybe now that we have had a president from each party who has smoked pot (and at least one who has done much more), and we can't identify a single person in this country who has ever died from smoking pot, and we have thrown billions of dollars down the toilet trying to stop drugs from being distributed and FAILED utterly in every sense of the word, maybe it is time to stop accepting every single thing the government tells us about drugs. Maybe, like George Washington, we should make up our own minds about what our government and our media tell us. Maybe we should not draw an arbitrary line between the person who drinks a bit of alcohol (which has killed so many) on the weekend and the person who does mild drugs occasionally, just because the government tells us to. We can accept that drugs, like alcohol, are addictive and unhealthy, but we can accept the reality that people are going to use them anyway, and if they use them in moderation and don't hurt other people in the course of using them, then there is no POINT to hunting them down and putting them in jail.


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RE: paddling at school

Have you heard how many were killed today in Germany? Where at in all places at a school.....Why????? Check it out it should give you some clues....


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RE: paddling at school

I don't think drugs, in and of themselves are the problem, or the root cause (although ecstacy seems to be the drug du joir now, and it can be laced such that teens have been seriously injured or have died). I think the problem today is that there are no authority figures any more and kids are taught that if the teachers give them too much grief, they can tell their parents and their parents will sue.

They can basically laugh in the principal's face and not get punished.

Just this week in the Atlanta area, there have been more stories about kids gone awry, than I saw in my whole 12 years in publich schools in my day.

1) Ring of kids counterfeiting money using computers and printers was arrested this week.
2) 8 kids arrested for a shoplifting ring in which the sums were $8,000 worth of merchandise.
3) Testimony begins in a trial of a high school teacher accused of sexual misconduct with teens (one of three from the same school who are all charged).
4) Sting nets arrest of 11 students in a local school for sale of ecstasy, heroin and marijuana (the sting happened last school year but was announced this week as charges were officially filed).

This is only this week's news. I hear more throughout the year that tells me these are definitely different times.

We also didn't have overcrowding on the scale we have today. A school I visited for career day started lunch periods at 10:30 am! They had to, so that they could fit all the students into the cafeteria and get them fed by 2 pm. We also didn't have to take class in trailers. In my day of being a PC technician, I had to repair computers that were in those trailers, while class was going on. It was very crowded, desks very close, it was hot and sweltering, and the kids weren't paying any attention.

I still say things are very different today, and it's due to many factors, not just drugs, not just no-more-paddle-in-the-principals-office, etc. And I think there is an epidemic of parents who sue, and activists who got the education on this 'johnny's self esteem needs work, don't give him a bad grade' kick.

Just my opinion.


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RE: paddling at school

TREkaren,
Everything you said is true.Ectasy is the drug that many teens can easily afford and get their hands so, so I have heard. And yes drugs are a universal problem out there. In regular school now I have seen many parents that have had to deal with children that have been on drugs and spent fortunes on rehab, or either had their children rob their homes of expensieve appliances, jewlery, and whatever they can get their hands on so they can sell the merchandise for drugs. Around here sometimes the schools where the parents have the most money can be the worst.

Parents being so bighearted and working so much just give the kids all sort of spending money-and whenever you start giving teens money and not asking what the money is spent for-there can be all sorts of problems. Money can not Buy the closeness, or time, or the attention of parents that teens need.

Trekaren's posting is very true about how children can and do treat teachers and principals.
Many times I belive the robberies and murders that take place in this country are the products of drugs, with people either taking the drugs before commiting the crime or have drugs in their system. Alcohol in overdrive can also cause the same effect.

Thanks for your comments Trekaren.


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RE: paddling at school

Crime has been trending DOWN in most parts of the US for the last 20 years. Not up. That's not to say that there isn't bad parenting out there. Just that the bad parenting isn't necessarily translating into higher crime rates.

Also-I don't know where any of you went to school, but I had overlapping sessions and double sessions due to school overcrowding from the time I was in 4th grade. I am 36 years old. These problems didn't just start yesterday, nor are things quite a bleak as people on this board like to paint them.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bureau of Justice Page


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RE: paddling at school

Are the people any better (morally) today than they were 20-40 years ago? I am trying to help people improve but it has got to come from within, you have got to want to improve and then work to becoming better. So many times people are just unwilling to admit they are a problem, or part of a problem instead of being a part of the solution.
We difinitely have problems in society. Where do we start to improve? Within. How? Setting the proper example.
When? Now. Just as there must be standards for learning. More importantly, there must be standards of behavior in society, in schools, and at home.
We are a world of many rules and regulations, but many people seem to do what they think is right in his or her own eyes. How many are willing to raise the standard of behavior and try and live up to or above that standard?
Again, many see nothing wrong in many things we have compromised and accepted as okay, because so and so did it, it must be okay...We judge our own behavior by someone else standards too many times. I am not perfect, but I am trying to improve.
I know drugs, cigarettes, alcohol, profanity, pornography, adultery, idolatry, fornication, bitterness, envying, strife, hate and malice are wrong. I know I have not listed all sins of which I am not allowed to go into on this forum. I know all of the above are harmful and they lead to further consequences.
May we have the love, respect, honesty, fairness, cooperation, justice and support to our fellowman.


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You're kidding right?

The one thing that you have right is that people have to live life according to their own standard. Your standard is not the one. I am not ready to give up sex or the occaisional drink. I am also not ready to blacklist all cigarette smokers as sinners.

I don't think of all the things on your list as sins and I wouldn't want you to impose your version of morality on me or my children. Sorry-but I will continue to drink a glass a wine prior to enjoying sex with my husband and not feel like there has been some sort of sin against G@d.

Mommabear


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RE: paddling at school

Mommabear,
According to those statistics crime is still rising. Look at all of the lists....


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Serious Crime Trends

Continue to decline

Here is a link that might be useful: DOJ-Crime Trends


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Property Crimes

Continue to Decline

Here is a link that might be useful: DOJ-Property Crimes


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Violent Crimes

Continue to decline

Here is a link that might be useful: DOJ_Violent Crime Trends


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Drug Arrests

Increase since 1970. Probably due to better enforcement. Good-gets the drug dealers off the street

Here is a link that might be useful: DOJ-Drug Arrests


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Proportion sent to prison

Continues to increase.

Where are the increases in crime?

Mommabear

Here is a link that might be useful: DOJ-% sent to prison


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RE: paddling at school

Smoking link http://www.smartlink.net/~phillipj/smoking.htm


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RE: paddling at school

Mommabear presents government statistics.

Arkansasgardenboy rebuts with a grade 7 student's science project.

What does smoking have to do with anything anyway?


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RE: paddling at school

I knew I would get your attention. I am going to eat supper. I am glad I don't allow smokers to smoke in my house.


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RE: paddling at school

I have some information I would like for you all to check out and this is current research. http://www.crimetimes.org/issues.htm#new

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.crimetimes.org/issues.htm#new


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RE: paddling at school

Okay,
I am going to give you what I found on crime data from the good state of Arkansas. Notice especially the offences against family and children. The link: http://www.acic.org/statistics/stats.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.acic.org/statistics/stats.htm


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RE: paddling at school

The crime rate in Arkansas trended up slightly in 2000, but if you look at the crime rate from 1991 to 2000 you will see that the rate dropped from 5241 crimes per 100K in population to 4121 a drop of 21%.

Mommabear


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RE: paddling at school

Mommabear,
Still too much crime wouldn't you agree? These are considered serious crimes. What are considered not serious crimes? How does Florida compare? Have you notice the data in how county by county comparisons are so different?
Property crime in 1999 at 91,990 in 2000 at 98,063 an increase of 6.6%. Violet crime in 1999 at 10,692 and in 2000 at ll,810 an increase at 10.5%.
When should we be able to get 2001 data?
Could someone give me a link to other states on crime data?


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RE: paddling at school

Well some websites may say drugs are down in the U.S. if you only consider illegal drugs (which I don't believe from my obervations-some areas though may vary from others.)
But the drug decrease in the early 1990's has increased.

Drugs like Ritalin, are used and abused by teens and college students, this didn't happen in the 70's 80's. Oxycontain use it going up and was not used not used. This drug is a prescription drug for pain for cancer patients -but is used by non-cancer afflicted persons and by people with with out any pain. Also other pain killers are widely used. Seems some drug users are going in for drugs bought legally /illegally that are legal drugs.

In the United Kingdom has been reported that drug use is at an all time high. I know from talking with people in Ireland that drugs there are on an upswing, and also witnessing it myself, seeing some addicts. As for the Europe and all time high.

A web link is below

Anita,
I don't have a dismal view of the world, but a realistic one. I don't dismiss what I see and hear. I know of teens and young adults who have spent time in Federal prison for drugs and have spent a good many years with the problem being in jails, going to rehab programs.

I think the world is a good place! I want to visit many parts of it. But I am aware there is a drug problem out there. I don't dwell on it all the time, but I am aware it is there.

I have two grown children and have seen some of their childhood friends brought down by drugs. Some like I said are not illegal drugs either. High school atheletes at some school can get easy acess to steroids, many times. Coaches don't care either at times.

Here is a site about the Ritalin problem from CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/children/01/08/college.ritalin/

The other site below:

Here is a link that might be useful: Illegal Drug Use Among Students Increases


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RE: paddling at school~

Sorry about not proof reading so well. I had to type every address in. I can't copy from my address to this website. I can copy to others email addresses easily though. Some of the addresses I typed (because I couldn't copy) on the last posting reply were terribly long. The second a whole lot longer than the first.

Please excuse all the late night mistakes.


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RE: paddling at school

Arkansasgardeboy:

Any crime is to much crime. How did you turn this into a fight between Arkansas and Florida? I am sure that Florida has more crime than Arkansas. I am willing to concede that without even looking at statistics. Arkansas wins. Are you happy?

Your thesis is that there is much more crime in the world today than there was in the past. My thesis is that there is less crime today than there was 20 years ago. I have offered some proof. Where's your proof that there is more crime today than in the past? There is not more crime, there is more media coverage of the crime so that it seems like there is more crime to the average American. But, in reality there is LESS crime today than when I was growing up.

Lynn:

You are correct in your statement that the problems of today are different that the problems in the past. There is always a challenge in that we have a problem then we devise solutions to that problem. OK-but then there is a new problem that we didn't anticipate. It will never end and we certainly should not end our concern with crime.

However, beating kids up in school is not the solution to the drug problem in America, which is what this thread was originally about.

Mommabear


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RE: paddling at school

Mommabear,
I know what the thread was originally about. But you commented on the "Drug thing" too.
No one said anything to you about the thread was originally about "Paddling at school", Or was rude to you at all when you made your reply.

So why you couldn't give me the same courtesy in my reply? I have not idea??

I certainly didn't say "Beating kids up " was the solution to the drug sitution. You won't find that in the context of my reply at all. As I did not see it in your replies on the "Drug Problem" either.

Your comment was strange and didn't make any sense.
If you couldn't write something that was sensible I don't know why you bothered to write anything at all.

-I guess you just wanted to get a reaction out of me, which you achieved!!- Enough said!!


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RE: paddling at school

I am certain she was not trying to be rude Lynn. She was just saying, I think, that discipline or lack of discipline in schools isn't the cause of, or the solution to, drug problems. Well, maybe that isn't what she was saying. But I don't think she was trying to be rude.

You say Ritalin abuse has gone up, which didn't happen in the 70s and 80s. Ritalin hasn't been around that long. If it had been, I'm sure it would have been abused. Prescription drugs have always been abused - from ether and morphine, valium and barbituates, to ritalin and viagra.

Besides which, have you ever taken ritalin? It is not smart to abuse it, but having never TRIED it, can you really say that it is that harmful and awful? Maybe it is not a terrible social problem, but just a dumb thing people do. Maybe it causes no more harm to your body than a hamburger - after all, they give it to millions of children. So, why get all upset about it? Which of the illegal drugs are really that dangerous? Only a handful.

So people want to waste their lives doing drugs. There are all kinds of people wasting their lives in all kinds of ways. So what. I don't see why the government should use my tax money hunting them down and shooting them and keeping them in prison at costs of millions of dollars a day. And they make drugs so expensive that it motivates people to steal. The cost to society of the drug war is absolutely ridiculous. I am tired of being robbed blind by a hopelessly stupid, unwinnable war. There are so many other things we could do with that tax money. We could have the best schools in the world, as good as the best private schools. If only we could let go of our pre-conceived, irrational ideas about drugs being so awful, and see them as what they really are - personal choices.

Here is a link that might be useful: legalize heroin


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RE: paddling at school

I didn't say anything rude to you. If there are 2 ways to interpret my comments please choose the one that DOES NOT hurt your feelings.

I was trying to relate our conversation to the original topic of the thread.

Mommabear


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RE: paddling at school

Wow, I really missed a lot by skipping this post for so long!

Nope, don't think schools should paddle. Paddle my child and I'll call every source of media within 100 miles of the school. Nothing like bad press. Leave a permanent mark, I'll sue. I really will. If my child commits such an offense that the administration is inclined to paddle him, call me, I'll be there in 7 mins flat and he'll wish it was as easy as being paddled.

IMO, the only offenses serious enough to warrant even the consideration of corporal punishment would be criminal offenses, so call the police. Yep, even if it's my child. From my experience seeing kids paddled when I was in school, it was the same kids time after time. I guess they didn't get any behavioral conditioning from the experience.

I remember my mom telling my brother and I as teens that if we were ever at a party and kids started drinking or using drugs, call her no matter what time or where and she'd come get us and not ask a single question. At the same time, she told us if that call came from the county jail because we chose to participate, forget getting a ride home from her! We knew where we stood.

I never made that call from jail, or even from the party. I never had so much as a detention in school. I knew of the trouble my peers got into, alcohol, drugs, crime, violence, teen pregnancy, etc. Even for the small town I lived it, there were a lot of problems in the HS. Frankly, I was just never personally exposed to it.

I was disciplined growing up. But my parents didn't spank me or hit me in any other way. Their methods had nothing to do with religion, I don't remember the last time I was in a church. I think what kept me out of trouble was 1)mutual repsect with my parents and 2)I was too busy. In HS, I worked parttime, did volunteer work, and was involved in extracurricular activities. I did not have the time for booze or sex! My parents knew where I was- my work and activities schedule was posted on the fridge. It takes a certain amount of committment from the parents to keep their kids that involved, driving them places and going to activities. Too many parents want a quick solution that requires very little effort from themselves. That's why I will give my children my time, but not the back of my hand.

Arkansasgardenboy,
You commented that you are only trying to help people who don't want to help themselves. I don't know who exactly you are trying to help. Us? Here on this forum? Who? It's funny that you made a comment about being a part of the problem instead of the solution, but that is exactly what I was starting to think of you. You come here and preach, but what are you really doing in your daily life to reach out to young people and make a difference? If there is something you, tell me, maybe you can still earn a little respect from me. But this preaching and complaining is pathetic!

I don't profess to know the solutions to society's problems. I know they aren't new, every generation has challenges. But I cannot imagine a connection between using a board on our children and crime rates/teen pregnancy rates/divorce rates or any of the rest of it. Of course children need discipline and guidance. It is a parent of weak mind who can only accomplish that through physical means.


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RE: paddling at school

Whose doing the preaching?


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RE: paddling at school

Maybe this forum should have been called padding in school. I think I could use a little about now. Have a good day. I still love you all....


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RE: paddling at school

Stephanie,

Good point! Idle hands, etc etc

I see some good kids who are busy with parttime jobs or extracurricular activities. These are the ones driving the beat-up car who are working to pay for school (not working to pay for an SUV) :-)

I see a lot of others who are very disrespectful to elders (of which, I'm afraid to say, I am an elder now! so I notice), could care less about everything from litter to shoplifting to drugs, and all they do is hang around the neighborhood shopping centers or malls or parks. The park I take DD to is constantly in need of cleaning up due to older kids who have way too much time on their hands.

So I think one key to ensure our crop of kids turns out ok is to give them healthy extracurricular activities to keep them out of trouble. My nieces are heavy into sitting businesses, theater, clubs, etc. and I think that's part of the reason they have steered clear of trouble. They've seen their share of trouble and said no, too.


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RE: paddling at school

I am reminded again of incident which happen in Conway,Arkansas this year, of a student who was killed at conveniece store, who was a college student working and earning money to go to college. If people chose to destroy only their own life such as the suicide at Delight recently; it is a different case, but many times they are killing and destroying others as well.
More on to the prevention,checking how we can improve another good site I just found today is:http://endabuse.org/statereport/list.php3

Here is a link that might be useful: http://endabuse.org/statereport/list.php3


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RE: paddling at school

Many school districts in Arkansas paddle..

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.aradvocates.org/links/


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RE: paddling at school

Our school will paddle, but only if the parent allows it. I have signed that my dd may be spanked, but only if I am contacted first and we talk about what happened. She has not been paddled yet at school. I do believe in paddling, but not for every situation or every child. Does it work? It does with my dd. However, my dss would rather be paddled than any other punishment. He sees it as a quick end to being in trouble. Back to schools-My dd is in a rural school and I love it. They as yet do not have many of the problems other schools do. They do have a spanking policy, but only for certain offences. They do ask that there be no homework assigned on Wed. so families may go to church if they wish. It's in the handbook! I think most schools in AR do spank, but you may put your child on the no spank list. Arkansasg-do you know? One problem I have with people telling me I cannot spank is that in our area anyway, if my child does something illegal, I can be held responsible. Yet, I can also be reported to SCAN if I spank. I have seen parents trying to reason with their 2 yr old child who was doing something potentially harmful (more than a swat on the hand or backside), but would not do more for fear of

Perfect example of schools being worse-the Westside School shooting along with many others (this hits home as I knew some of the children shot and one of the shooters). You cannot imagine what this does to a community until you have been there and attended funerals and memorials for 11 yr old girls. I am 35 and do not remember school shootings back then. We did not have metal detectors in our school. We did not have poice officers in our school and I did attend a city school that was somewhat large for AR-1500 in hs. The worst weapons were pocketknives. Now a boy cannot carry one. Drugs-every girl I knew carried Tylenol, Midol, etc in a purse. Now, a child would get expelled for that. Pot was the drug of choice. My dh is a policeman and in this area, we are considered the Meth capital. It's in the schools now. Heck, they even manufacture it in the back of trucks!


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RE: paddling at school

That is an example of THAT school being worse than it was a generation ago. That situation is not typical. The overwhelming majority of our kids will attend school without shootings or metal detectors. There can be specific examples of other schools as better than they were a generation ago, or of school having improved in one area and declined in another.

The number of students going on to college after high school is higher than it was a generation ago. One could argue that as in indication that schools are better than a generation ago. What I'm saying is there are too many variables to just make a vast generalization that schools are either better or worse.

Besides, do ya really think the school can be blamed for a student shooting? Dontcha think if a kid is going to shoot he is going to shoot no matter where he goes to school? With or without a pro-spanking policy? Or even if he didn't go to school at all? Blaming the school would make almost as much sense as blaming the gun.

The school's spanking policy, pro or con, should be an ethical decision, not one based on fear of school shooting or other violence. One has nothing to do with the other.


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RE: paddling at school

No, no one blames the school. Actually many blamed the parents saying they did not teeach them well.

Not just one school. I grew up in one city-school vilolence has increased. Yes, there are metal detectors and policemen. There was not either 17 years ago. I am now in a totally different area. Every school here has police officers called SRO's. We now have an "alternative school" for children who are not behaving enough to be in regular public schools. No, this is not the kind of alternative schools that I think are positive that many of you know about.

I meant that I believe in spanking, both and home and in school. I think kids have little respect for teachers and other figures of authority. I have a friend who worked in a Pediatric Center. She had 4 yr olds tell her she could do nothing to them. The Center is paid for by public funds and they cannot kick the children out.


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RE: paddling at school

I don't blame the schools for the shootings.
I also don't blame the schools for this new climate of adults being afraid to discipline children, fail children, tell children they are incorrect, etc. This is a national climate that started in the late 80's and has evolved over time. And it has led to this generation of kids having no respect for adults of any kind, be they law officers, teachers or parents. (not all kids, but a lot more kids than in prior decades)
And this lack of respect for authority is definitely to blame for what is happening now.
I still don't think spanking is the answer. The removal of paddling didn't 'cause' it. I do think that parents need to work with the schools and accept feedback about, for example, a child failing a grade, instead of threatening to sue if the teacher fails them. That's just one example.

Parents need to be the advocate for the children and make sure they are not being mistreated and that they are receiving a quality education while in school. Teachers need to have some latitude restored, to their authority, and allowed to use their own judgment in educating. And as we mentioned before, keep children more involved in constructive activities, and YES, I believe in limiting TV, movies and computer games to more educational alternatives. There are many facets of our lifestyle now, that are to blame for how kids are and I DO see different children and worse actions on their part than 20 years ago.

I live in the 'burbs, not in the hard streets of the city, and I still see it on a daily basis. So if I see things here I can't imagine what more challenged areas of town must see in their young people. (it's not dismal and they aren't all bad. But there is more 'bad' than there used to be).

Typing fast and not proofing so I hope i'm not rambling too much! just in a hurry...


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RE: paddling at school

My mom graduated high school in 1973 and she and her peers had very little respect for adults, teachers, cops and parents. The music they listened to, the things they believed, the way they related to each other, even the clothes they wore offended adults. They spend their time marching against and living against the things that adults believed in - the Vietnam war, nuclear weapons, segregation, unequal employment rights for women, the idea that native americans were second class citizens, the idea that the environment belongs to whoever has the most money to exploit it with.

Lack of respect for authority is far from a new thing, and the results of it can often be positive.

Generational stereotyping is so pointless. Remember about seven years ago when everyone moaned about how terrible "Generation X" was? They had no ambition, didn't know how to work, had no compassion, no respect, were rude and petty and lazy. All they wanted to do was play video games. Five years later, the stereotype of the same generation was that they were a bunch of internet geniuses who understood everything technological and could start a company and make a million dollars overnight, and they turned out to vote and care about social issues, too.

I think it is a tradition for each generation to think that the next one is dangerous, disrespectful, and worse than all that have come before.


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RE: paddling at school

I am among so many young people on this forum. I graduated high school in 1962. I haven't read all of the above responses but I apreciate all of your thoughts and I am planning on coming back and read your views.


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RE: paddling at school

Well I graduated in 1972 and I, my siblings and alot of my friends had alot of respect for out teachers , cops and parents. We liked some pop music , but would never talk back to any of the above-parents, teacher, cops, etc. I guess I wasn't part of the Hippy scene or California scene. Even though I dressed modern for that time, mini skits and all the lastest fashions.

But I knew what was going on in some other parts of the country, I did have newspaper and tv and there were some student riots at some colleges large ones in our state.

I have grown children that are in their 20's and I wouldn't label them as disrespectful. But of course they are not perfect.

My parents had siblings that also had children and with my parents having 5 children and I wasn't the first of the children they got use to longer hair and shorter skirts by the time I was older, and it was acceptable at the schools.

My parents were very strict though on a lot of matters, but I guess we just weren't the rebellious type of children. But I never did drugs or anything like that. I don't think you can label an entire generation by only those that make the headlines.

I went to college and knew of some people that did drugs, but I chose not to get involved with them. And at that time around where I lived alcohol was more of a problem then drugs were. (I know someone is going to tell me that alcohol is a drug)- I never said I was involed with alcohol.

I wonder what they will say about my children's generations?

My daughter and son are good workers at their jobs, my daughter very studious-both very popular in their groups of friends. I think they are great kids , of course :-) We communicate well. I guess they just never were that rebellious, even though we didn't agree on things at times.


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RE: paddling at school

First of all I followed the link from gardenboy in Arkansas and found the article disturbing!!
In my opinion any type of physical punishment is all about POWER AND CONTROL....putting FEAR into children doesn't teach them morals or respect. Just because you got the DESIRED BEHAVIOR as a RESULT of the "paddling" doesn't mean the child won't display the behavior again!!!!
Exactally WHAT does spanking, hitting, paddling, in regards to discipline TEACH a child???


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RE: paddling at school

Here's a good example right here on THS of two things:
1) lack of respect of kids for adults and
2) the parents of said kids acting like, "my kid would never do that!"

Here is a link that might be useful: Antecdote


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RE: paddling at school

Not so Flower girl.


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RE: paddling at school

Not so WHAT??? Which part of my post doesn't at all apply to the paddling at school deal?? WHAT DOES SPANKING AND HITTING AND PADDLING TEACH GARDENBOY????


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RE: paddling at schoolgardenboy

Gardenboy I can't help but find it interesting that you think there is too much crime, does this CRIME include any violence against children, or violence in general?


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RE: paddling at school

Spanking teaching many things when it is administered properly, promptly, peacefully, precisely, predictably, protectively, provisionally, and prayerfully. There are alot of factors involved. The above list accounts for the attitude of the discipline. It must be admistered properly to be totally effective. It must be done in love not in anger, not in revenge, not in abuse, and not in excess. Slapping would not be proper.
Crime does inlude violence, but this is not disciplining; it is the opposite. Beating and abuse is violence and is totally different from a parent or teacher spanking a child.


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