now that i think more about it they could have been located in oregon also i so want to find this site i am still looking through posts lol it was a basic website no major frills but they had some decent priced seeds and some i have never seen maureen ty so much for that link i found a seed there i have been looking to find for years the louffa gords. Shoan

I am in your zone and have a clay loam soil that drains well. My Michelia gets morning sun with little root competition. It is about 15 years old and was planted without ANY soil amendments or subsoil treatments to enhance drainage. It has done well, only requiring occasional pruning to keep in bounds. Al

Ravencajun, even that site refuses to open for me, thanks anyway. I got smart and told the group whose web site I am doing to download it themselves then they do not need to give me the password to their email address. Problem solved. MSN, I too get curious about how those offering web counters earn money. They need the hits returned to them so they can evaluate the times on pages and new or returning hits for us to analyse so we have little choice. Having used them for a few short years I have found no reason to give them up regarding Spam or the like and they do provide valuable feedback.

Thanks, marquest. I guess I want to know if the search process here can be refined. I have searched often with the search box. Using the search box gives me every use of the members name, including in references by others and all follow up posts by them, as well as all posts they initiated. Can I limit the search to just initial posts by a given member? Maybe searching through Google is better. It certainly turns up listings for subjects here that I don't get with the GW search. Maybe a generic search is the only way to do it here. It isn't that hard to scroll down and look for posts initiated by the individual in question.