Both of my grandparents stayed at home until they were in their late 80's and then Mama had no choice but to put them into a nursing home. My GF lived about 3 years after and my GM is still living. She turned 100 in Sept. She has very good care and is the favorite in the home. She has a double room and has been lucky for the most part about room-mates but she has had a couple that were a chore to deal with. When they retired they had a substantial amount of savings and their home with a few acres of land. We hired one of the home health aides to come spend the night with them for a few months but were paying out about $300 a week and all she was doing was sleeping there. Anyway now my GM has been in the home for about 13 years and all of her money is gone. She gets $30 a month and goes to the beauty shop in the home once a week and the family pays for her TV and phone and any other things she needs. Her money was building up in her account and they told my sister that we needed to spend some of it because she wasn't allowed to have but a certain amount and she was over the limit. Family members moved into their home for a few years and then when it was vacated we sold it and the money went to the home. We had no problem with that. They've taken good care of her and know they will continue to. The main point is that people save their money for their old age and then when they get their and need it for health care the other family members often think it should be theirs. Yes, we've paid taxes most of our lives but nobody can live on the amount of taxes you pay in for a month. Probably the best solution would be to go back to many years ago where extended families just built onto the family home and the kids stayed after marriage and were there to help care for the elderly family members (great-grandparents) and the grandparents are there to baby sit for the grandchildren. Thus cutting out a lot of expenses. Of course we've gone away from this custom for too many years for most to want to do it. G'nite John-Boy! lol Nancy

In checking some old threads, it seemed to me that this one is quite relevant in these recessionary times. As spammers often resurrect old threads ... well, consider at the end of this post whether you consider my post to be spam. I didn't just join today, which many spammers seem to do. I'm not proposing some wonderful way for readers to obtain great service (while it may well be that it will provide a benefit to me). It's my judgement that my contribution is on topic, and many suggest that often the post made by the spammers is somewhat less so. This is my third post on this thread ... and I'm surprised that I didn't think of this issue during the earlier two. A few years after our marriage, during which we'd lived quite frugally, but abroad and in houses owned by others, then we'd decided to settle in this country. Following our decision to settle here and a move to a new location, one of the things that my wife wanted was a quality dining room suite. She checked the classified section of our local newspaper, and found one that interested her, after an initial phone conversation. On calling again shortly after for some more information, she was told that there was another couple of calls, and that someone was coming over soon. Sue asked when we could go, and I had some free time, so we went immediately. The dining room suite was solid maple, by Vilas, one of Canada's premiere builders, with a beautiful finish, set for four with cabinet and hutch ... Sue decided that she wanted it, and we bought it, paid cash ... for much under new price. Sue later got an executive position and went to live on her own, and after about 25 years there was talk of closing her facility, so she took early retirement. After ten years having a ball, she, who'd been head of food service in a major hospital for 20 years ... contracted colon cancer ... which, ironically, did her in. At the time of her death (five years ago) our young ones said that, in the ordinary course of things, their Mom would have retired in the previous year ... and I observed that, yes, and she'd have been sick for most of that. After the break-up of her house things and the sale of the house ... I ended up with the dining suite ... ... that was purchased 43 years ago. So ... it has a history. Good wishes for taking charge of your life ... including your money. Choosing "frugal" is better than seeing one's self as "poor". ole joyful

I didn't mean to blame the victims of terrorism. All that I said was that that there would have been a much better chance of those planes never hitting those towers had the U.S. been more even-handed in supporting the Palestinians to develop their lives as they have with Israel, for the last almost 60 years. After all - the Palestinians were there first, with only a few Jews in their midst, prior to 1948. And some who were leaders of Jewish militant groups (let's not use the word "terrorist" - such concepts get in the way of clear thinking, and in such crucial days as we live, clear thinking is vital) that carried out some rather nasty enterprises prior to and about 1948 ... ... later went on to be Prime Minster, President, or whatever, of Israel. Some of the oil-rich Middle Eastern countries could have helped, but didn't - more or else wanting to rub Israel's nose in the mess, possibly. There's enough blame to go around, for sure. It seems to me that we need to take a much longer and more balanced view of life and history. The United States has been badly injured by foreigners only three times during its history ... -the British burned Washington, way back when, -Japan attacked Pearl Harbour - in 1941, but World War II started in 1939 and -some Middle Easterners flew some civilian airliners using civilian jet fuel to destroy two large towers in New York. Which pictures we have seen over and over, hundreds of times, till those pictures are etched on the screen of our minds. At a cost to them of, what - some say something like half a million? Resulting in the U.S. spending billions to build a big security fence. Going deep into debt to do so, to which they are adding huge annual deficits. However... The death toll there was something under 3,000. Which happened getting near to five years (over 1,600 days) ago. As it is, they say that about 25,000 kids die of poor water, poor nutrition, malaria (of which we don't have much in our part of the world, so drug companies with their eye on sales in this area aren't deeply concerned about it) and other diseases, with little medical help and without the necessary education to learn how to cope effectively with some of those issues ... ... every day. Something near 25,000 die ... every day: 1,600 X 25,000 is ... how many? As it is, I am ashamed of my country's lack of concern to help people in other parts of the world get ahead. Our government said years ago that we were going to aim at spending 0.07% (less than 1%) of our GNP to support such projects. We have never come near that (modest) goal. We've fallen back from what we did achieve, a few years ago, when our country was running large deficits. Some of us who feel that such action is needed if we are to develop a healthy world down the line have sought to have our government, supported by the people, honour that commitment. Our country has been adding more to pollution in recent years, rather than cutting back on it, as well. And, as my Dad moved 60 years ago from this area of the country, where he was having breathing problems, to a cleaner area where he enjoyed 40 years go good health (prior to his death, 20 years ago) I have a personal interest in working on those issues, as well. And I'm very thankful that, at age 77, I am enjoying the good health that enables me to work harder at it. Believe me - it's an uphill battle. But we keep at it. Smiling as we go. After all - God's the general ... I'm just a foot soldier. Seems to me God loves the various parts of the world, and the people who inhabit those parts, equally. So - shouldn't I, as well? And - for those who don't believe in God ... ... taking an interest in the welfare of needy parts of the world is a matter of our continued survival. Maybe not for me - but it surely will affect our grandkids. We were surprised by what happened to those towers. Do we feel that we are immune? We aren't. Do we feel that we can build a wall around ourselves that'll be successful in keeping the unwashed horde out? Forget that, as well. The Russians couldn't in Berlin ... Israel can't ... and we can't, either. China doesn't need to throw missles at us. All that they need do is ask us to pay all of those U.S. (and other) bonds that they hold. Which will scuttle the U.S. Dollar. This is a multi-pronged issue. To focus on one portion of it, even though that is a temptation ... is a mistake. Could be a fatal one, for people in our part of the world continuing to enjoy our privileges. History is fluid (and getting more so): civilizations come - civilizations go. Ours isn't carved in stone. Hope you enjoy your weekend. ole joyful

· Posted by: hnwillis z8 SC (My Page) on Thu, Nov 29, 01 at 15:22 Ya'll gotta be some of the funniest people. After going through the ordeal of many a gardenia suicides, I decided it was time to plant them outside (great humidity and heat-Z8 SC). I hate to say this but two years ago I planted 2 gardenia plants on the northwest side of my house. They have been doing just fine. They are just at 2-3 feet tall. I have pruned them together this past sprng into a low hedge next to my white picket fence. I have planted the trimmings amongst a groundcover of Gerbera Daisies in a 24 inch plastic pot that I also planted a 10 ft crooked willow tree on the southside of my house. I also put some trimmings into small pots with cheap Wal-Mart garden soil. To my surprise, they have taken root and are growing like crazy. I put one particular cutting into a pot by itself to be able to bring in the house. I left it outside all spring and summer (it rained constantly when I first planted them). This one stayed in 5 inches of water/dirt for 2 months. I have brought the sole potted plant into my sunroom and placed it inside a miniture greenhouse. I doesn't seem to be growing like it did outside. I'm really thinking that it likes to be outdoors in humidity, heat and southern exposure. Go figure? So from 1 pruning of two plants I have successfully propagated 10+ little ones. I can't wait until they bloom. Also, the main idea for planting them outside is that my neighbor has a 10 ft tall, 7 ft wide "gardenia bush" that is heavenly when it blooms. I have taken pictures of it because people don't believe me. I know she doesn't do anything special to any of her plants. One thing we do have in common is acidic clay soil which our azaleas and camellias seem to thrive on. · Posted by: bedou z10 Ft. L. Fl (My Page) on Fri, Dec 7, 01 at 1:15 Its 1:09 in the morning. My laughter must have woken my husband up, so I suppose I should put the kettle on! From a nude plot of land in Ft. Lauderdale, I have tried to fill it up with fragrant choices. Yes, Gardenia included. Its yellow leaves tend to give me a good contrast against all those green ones that are flourishing. Alas, they tend to fall off, so I just use them as mulch where they land. Time to find something else! I certainly shall not spend time agonizing over it, from what you have all said. Oh well, I had such high hopes!!! Joanmary · Posted by: fpogoda 5 N NJ (My Page) on Mon, Dec 17, 01 at 12:21 Just wanted to be sure regarding the indoor gardenia temp. issue: is the optimum temperature 70 degrees during the day, then 55 degrees at night? Thanks · Posted by: yugoslava 6 ) on Sat, Dec 29, 01 at 20:56 I have been fairly successful with azaleas and rhododendrons and wonder if it would be possible to keep gardenia dormant over winter and bring it out in spring, plant it among rhodos and leave it until it gets cold. I have admired gardenias from afar for the longest time, but I knew indoor conditions in the winter were not the best, so I have never had one to call my own. Would it be possible to keep gardenia cool over winter as I do with my fig tree and brugmansia? The scent is absolutely intoxicating! One word about people who live in warm or coastal areas. You have no trouble growing tropical plants which we can only see when we take tropical vacations for which we have to pay dearly. I live in Great Lakes Region with short seasons but we all dream of exotic plants growing luxuriantly indoors. Which is why we fret and fuss endlessly. · Posted by: Jenn z9/19 SoCal (My Page) on Tue, Jan 8, 02 at 10:16 This has to be the funniest thread I've ever read at the GardenWeb. I laughed so hard I could hardly talk and had tears in my eyes!! I printed out the whole thread to share with other pour souls who have tried to grow Gardenias according to all the best recommendations, only to watch them wither away. We have a Gardenia growing on a slight slope in alkaline clay soil under a Japanese Black Pine tree. It gets mid-to-late sun. It gets watered whenever we run the lawn sprinklers. It isn't the most prolific plant we grow, but at least it's alive and produces some blooms for us each year. The success is probably due to the fact that my husband is the one who cares for it, and he is not a by-the-book gardener... he just waters whenever he thinks the lawn needs water, feeds it when he remembers (I think the last time was about 2 years ago), etc. LOL!!! · Posted by: Rosalie 5-6 salt lake (My Page) on Wed, Jan 9, 02 at 11:30 this thread is hilarious! and now famous -- a link to it is posted at the garden party forum, so some of us have wandered over to check out your battles -- i believe i will stick with xeric types -- no chicken dances for me -- thanks for the laughs! and good luck to all -- rosalie · Posted by: ccl38 8A Savannah, GA (My Page) on Thu, Jan 17, 02 at 15:59 I too have had trouble with vetchii. Mine was so large and so heavy with blooms I decided to prune it. We couldn't get past it down the walk. Once prunned it went into a decline and it has never been the same. I have another variety that I rooted about three years ago from a large bush growing at the edge of the swamp near where I work. It is mostly in shade, never gets watered and would probably measure 5 feet, and it has those huge saucer size blossoms and smells wonderful. I don't shake a chicken so I guess I must have held my mouth right when I planted it. They are my favorite plant. For me it is a pass along plant. I root them all summer and give them to anyone who comes along and wants one. · Posted by: Joanmary_z10 z10 Ft. L. Fl. (My Page) on Thu, Jan 17, 02 at 19:23 cc 138 you must have 'the magic touch'Well done, and I say that with honest envy. The question is, are you ready, willing and able to produce 75-+ rooted cuttings from a 'proven' specimen with the right karma, one for each of the above postings, to restore our faith in this plant and to bring aid and comfort to all of us who have been brought down by this picky, picky plant? lol!!! Joanmary · Posted by: Lily 5 IL (My Page) on Fri, Jan 18, 02 at 21:16 I got a Gardenia "Veitchii" last January as a gift, loaded with buds. Looking for culture info I found this thread. Aftering reading everyone's experience, I thought I was going to kill it for sure. I held my breath when I was anywhere near it. I misted it daily and then decided not to mist after my hard water left ugly mineral stains on the leaves. More then half of the buds dropped and it refused to bloom indoor! It got a lot of half yellowed leaves before I dragged it outside in late Spring. It thrived outside and bloomed! In the mean time I got hooked on orchids. I started using the leftover orchid water (rain water with 1/4 strenth of fertilizer and a drop of Superthrive/per gallon) to water the gardenia. It's been growing like crazy! Now it's back in the house in front of my south facing window, and in bloom! It's in a 12" plastic pot and about 2 feet tall. Maybe it's the rain water or the superthrive, but there is definitely hope for all gardenia lovers! · Posted by: Jenn z9/19 SoCal (My Page) on Sun, Jan 20, 02 at 13:40 So that's the trick... "water with leftover orchid water". Why don't the gardening books say that?!? LOL! · Posted by: Lali z9, 18, So Cal (My Page) on Mon, Jan 21, 02 at 15:16 I can't believe how long this topic has gone on for. It is sooo hilarious! Anyway, I'm trying my first attempt to grow gardenias. I put them in the backyard (northern exposure) with ferns and azaleas, so I'm hoping they will be ok. Now that I've read this post, I'm really really really skeptical that they will bloom or even live by my hand. Thanks for the laugh! Lali · Posted by: freesias Z9 ) on Tue, Feb 19, 02 at 23:35 Oh My GOD! I just planted THREE 1 gal. 'Veitchii' gardenias in my front yard mixed border. I have a feeling, my are gonna DIE on me. I am definitely not touching these guys! Will water once every couple of weeks. THAT'S IT!!!! · Posted by: susan_CA z9 CA ) on Sun, Feb 24, 02 at 16:05 What a great thread! Gardenia culture is such a thrill of success/agony of defeat experience. Anticipating an unknown failure rate, I bought 6 'Veitchii'! The two planted directly under a tree (where I wanted to sit) and northern foundation exposure died. The two planted in eastern foundation exposure with shade mid-day on bloom copiously all summer. The two planted in western foundation exposure, where light tree shade relieves afternoon heat after 4pm do almost as well. All get composted manure in early spring, pine needle mulch, half-strength chelated minerals whenever leaves begin to pale or MirAcid if I think of it, water from sprinkler system early a.m. (including on leaves) daily in summer in the hot, dry central valley, and have FAST drainage. The two that died were in locations with slower drainage and more shade. The only year I had some bud drop was the year we had a late, wet spring, but they bloomed fine all summer. I have seen specimens in full sun in the central valley; they bloom well, but leaves & blossoms show sunburn damage. So I'm going with the sun/shade, wet/dry, feed/not theory. · Posted by: jxnphx Zn9 AZ (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 0:42 Oh my, oh my! The woman at the nursery said I could have an indoor gardenia in my east-window-garden (morning sun, high level of light the rest of the day), but it sounds like she forgot to tell me I'd need to install a swamp for it, as well. I certainly have plenty of heat for it, here on the low desert. I may be joining the ranks of the guilty gardenia group: I'm not likely to "mist" the miserable thing, nor am I likely to change my habits in on-going care (I am sadly irregular about watering and feeding my only other plant--a low-maintenance Madagascar Palm--dracena). I prepared the soil well enough though (a standard potting soil mixed with half-again as much peat moss), I placed the plant "high" in the middle of the pot, added a layer of peat moss on the top, and covered it all with some additional organic mulch, watered it in with an "acid" feeding, and set it above a large, relatively deep saucer with plenty of water for evaporation. I may have misunderstood the nursery lady's comment about the roots, though, because I removed a great deal of the soil from the root ball and treated the roots with hormone before placing it in the new pot and soil mix. I read in the messages above that this plant may not have liked that messing about with its roots. I believe I'll acquire one of those devices that gives a reading of the humidity, to see just how dry my window garden area really is. We'll see what happens. While I may be capable of sustaining this thing's life for a short while, after reading all of this, I'm not planning on much success with it. I tend to move on to other projects, and I'm afraid the poor thing will have to shift for itself more than it is constitutionally capable. Of course, reading about the success of those who largely ignored their gardenia gives me some hope. That's more my style. At least I have a good excuse for turning the AC down to 70 starting in April. I just don't think the local power usage police are going to understand it when I tell them that my astronomical power draw is necessary for the health of a plant. This is going to be expensive emotionally and monetarily. Who would have thought a trip to the nursery would result in such bondage? · Posted by: Joanmary_z10 z10 Ft. L. Fl. (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 02 at 13:16 Oh, what a wonderful laugh this has been! My poor old gardenia is there in Florida, with no one to care for it, depending on the sprinkler system to 'do its thing' and I have no clue what is happening to it. However I have my dark moments when I can see the Christmas lights decorating its bare twigs come December! Taking it that I will be using its twigs as mulch sometime soon, I have bought as a replacement, the African Gardenia. Now I wonder if this is in the same category? Here's to Gardenias who can take neglect!! · Posted by: jxnphx Zn9 AZ (My Page) on Sat, Mar 9, 02 at 15:31 I discussed my newly acquired gardenia issue with my elder sister who, smirking, told me it would probably do me good to have something to worry about. I can only think she was being complimentary about my faultless children and long-ago departed harpy of a wife. She herself has a half-dozen off-spring who provide her with plenty of heart-rending despair. Just in case she was being a smart-ass though, I bought my plant an ultrasonic humidifier which pumps 2.6 gallons of water vapor into the air each day, and I hurried to the used book store and increased my holdings in James Lee Burke (setting: southern Louisiana). I suppose I could have picked up some Faulker, as well, but he's so damned hard to read. I can't stand Tennessee Williams. I am thinking that a few dark and decadent thought-waves might make the gardenia feel a little more at home here in the bright, parched protestant desert southwest. Although it's only been a couple of days, I'm sure it's looking a little better than when I brought it home from the nursery; but just the same, I'm going to keep my eye on a new leaf that is looking a little yellowish. I don't want my dear sister to have the last laugh. · Posted by: BarbC coastal SC (My Page) on Fri, Apr 12, 02 at 15:53 LOL - I have tears rolling down my face and flooding the den. I have 2 unknown variety gardenias that I bought at HD 4 years ago. Since then, I have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to them and yet they thrive. They survived the great flood of '99 (were under 6 FEET of nasty swamp/river water and were still green 3 months later when the water finally went away) They were only 1ft tall at the time, so literally had 5ft of nasty black water on top of them. I even had to pick dried toilet paper off them, as the flood had taken the contents of 1000 septic tanks along its path. Those two gardenias and the roses were the only plants to survive that mess. Anyway, once I could finally walk through my yard again (without sinking up to my eyeballs in slimy mud) I dug those suckers up and moved them to my new (dry) house (roses too). They are still there and doing beautifully in full southern afternoon sun. I do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING special to them. I don't even ater then during droughts. Maybe that's the secret? The guy across the street has a couple and he also does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to his and his are even nicer than mine. Perhaps we are killing these plants with kindness? Maybe what they really want is to just be left alone?