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Canada's health care

Posted by oilpainter (My Page) on
Wed, Feb 10, 10 at 15:53

I don't know about the rest of you Canadians out there, but I am sick and tired of The post about America's health care, and Americans dissing our health care.

There is universal health care in all developed countries and a few of the developing countries. Only the States does not have any form of universal health care.

I understand if Americans want to discuss the merits or nonmerits of your proposed plan, but leave Canada out of it. If you cannot argue the point without bringing down others with untrue accusations and erroneous facts then keep your opinions to yourself.

We Canadians are proud of our health care and we'd fight tooth and nail to keep it. There is a hew and cry every time talk comes around to privatizing some sections of it, because under the free trade agreement that would allow Americans in. There is no way we want your style of health care. That is not dissing it that's just the way Canadians feel.

Make your points but leave us out of it!!!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Canada's health care

"Only the States does not have any form of universal health care. "

Only the USA?
I highly doubt that....

"There is no way we want your style of health care. That is not dissing it that's just the way Canadians feel. "

Well then...
There is no way some Americans want YOUR style of health care. That is NOT dissing it; that's just the way some Americans feel.


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RE: Canada's health care

OK western pa luann:

If you don't believe me that only the USA of all developed countries doesn't have universal health care, then read it for yourself in the link below. If you have other proof then show me.

Fine you don't want our health care then say that. That wouldn't bother me a bit, I don't really care whether or not you ever have health care or what form it takes.

That is not what was said all through the post on American health care. Post after post ran down our country and our health care with half truths and downright falsehoods.

I know you Americans are proud of your country--well I'm damn proud of my country and what we have. I will not sit by and listen to it being trashed

Here is a link that might be useful: universal health care


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RE: Canada's health care

Dear oilpainter,

The majority of us are not represented by those ignorant bullies who post on bulletin boards such as this pretending they represent the majority here. They. Do. Not.

We (the majority) elected a President who promised us healthcare for all. Whether or not he delivers on this promise or not, it is what we voted for.

Sorry you have to put up with the abuse; please don't take it personally.

Signed,
Educated and Envious


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RE: Canada's health care

As a Canadian I am thankful for our healthcare. I have not lived in the US and couldn't honestly say alot about their healthcare. I have heard good and bad. I don't take the comments posted personally....everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I can agree or disagree. That is what makes the forums interesting IMO. Budster Canuck


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RE: Canada's health care

I agree with you budster.

A health discussion is good and that's what the post I'm referring to started out, way back in July. Opinions were put forth both pro and con and information about our health care was asked for, and answered by Canadians. Personally I have never lived in the States either, and about the only thing I know about it is what I've been told and that many people don't have health coverage.

It is what that post has evolved into that I object to. It is now a bash Canadian health care post that won't die.

I also know that it is only a few that are keeping it alive. If we don't speak out then it will continue


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RE: Canada's health care

As a US citizen, I don't feel the need to bash Canada's health care system. America's health care system and the proposed plans give me enough fodder for bashing : )


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RE: Canada's health care

"As a US citizen, I don't feel the need to bash Canada's health care system. America's health care system and the proposed plans give me enough fodder for bashing : )"

Amen to that!


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RE: Canada's health care

As a US citizen, I don't feel the need to bash Canada's health care system. America's health care system and the proposed plans give me enough fodder for bashing : )

Ditto!


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RE: Canada's health care

I don't think there is anything wrong with comparing 2 systems and pointing out the positives and negatives in each. We need a lot MORE of that in this debate.

I do agree that we should avoid outright lies (my friend of a friend waited 250 years for a tooth cleaning) and bombthrowing (socialist etc). Those things just aren't helping.


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RE: Canada's health care

bill:

You are right there is nothing wrong with comparisons if they are researched and the truth was told. I don't have a problem with that at all. Truth is always the victor. The trouble with this post is that it started out as a discussion and evolved into a mud slinging match.

I think if Americans really want the whole picture they should examine not just Canada's health care but those of other countries--England, Australia, Germany, France and many more. All have universal coverage,yet all are different. The American government should examine them all and come up with a plan made for Americans.

The trouble with implimenting a plan in America is your structure of government. While it works great for the most part, there are just too many ways to veto a national plan. I don't know what your solution will be for health care. I really think it will come when the people demand it, not when they are so fearful, uncertain, and divided as they are now.


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RE: Canada's health care

Oilpainter,

very well said. Most discussions of healthcare involve an individuals personal experience, and usually it's a negative one. That's when discussions get very heated because all of our experiences are different. America is a big country and health care can be very regional.

I am very interested in health care debates and often want to chime in, but I often find that I can't express myself clearly because that would require pages upon pages of text and who wants to read that. I am an RN (although retired to care for kiddies) and I have seen many problems. I read the book "Overtreated Why too much Medicine is Making Us Sicker and Poorer.." I felt that the author had read my mind. It took 312 pages to get the point across clearly. (I am not affiliated with the book/author in any way.)

I find it difficult to get a clear picture of health care in other countries. Often, when I do get a "snapshot" of another system, it does scare me somewhat. It also scares me when I see how our own government already runs healthcare for those 65+. I believe that the US does need major changes, and if we get a do-over, then it should be the best and most cost effective - not a rehash to appease medicines "big money" industries and to satisfy the "Average Joe." I don't believe that we have any leaders with that kind of courage.


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RE: Canada's health care

Oilpainter - I agree with you. What drives me nuts though (I live in Ontario) is that when in the U.S. I am told by people how lucky we are that our health care system covers everything - medical (including all prescriptions, ambulance transportation etc.), dental and eye care. The eye care gets me going since my husband has had a Vitrecomy and cataract removal in both eyes - yet he has to pay for most of his tests and even his office health plan wouldn't cover the cost of his rehab equipment after his Vitrecomy (or for his quarterly eye tests). Funny though, the health plan did tell me that for people with family coverage, we had very few claims - gee, I wonder why! Certainly, I am grateful for the coverage we do have - and I tell people from other countries, we do pay for it - different tax structure for sure.


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RE: Canada's health care

So oilpainter, when I refer to you I should say You Canadian? You continually refer to us as You Americans this, that and everything else like we all think as one. By now you should realize that we have a great diversity in how we feel about health care and many other issues. and yet you go back to You Americans. I guess whenever you speak you do so as one voice for Canada. Canadians have only one mind? What a pity. Even if you were 100% right please step off your throne for awhile. I don't recall any American saying You Canadian this or that. Be courteous.


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RE: Canada's health care

earthworthy.
I don't care if you call me "You Canadian" as long as you call me Canadian.

However I would like you to point out the post where I called Americans "You Americans" I read over all my posts and nowhere did I address Americans as "You Americans"

I am not picking a fight with Americans or how you think. I wish you all well, I just wish you would return the favor.

Your whole post just emphasises my gripe. I am and have been courteous, it is you who are discourteous.


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RE: Canada's health care

Hi everyone I am Heather and I was a nurse for 18 years in the NHS UK (RN) and User of said NHS, as do my family and friends, I now live in the US 2 years, and I have health insurance, the system is rubbish!, I was 4 hours in ER only 20 mins actually being seen by anyone, if I am generous and that include the RN it turns out who took me to CT, charged for his time! get a porter! I had no idea he was an RN! the doctor who I saw for a matter of minutes, charge $450! WTF! what is he on hourly? I will credit he may have spent say 5 minutes looking at my CT scan, which was actually unnecessary, as the break they where looking for can be seen on Xray just a bit difficult if you are not used to facial xrays, I did 6 months in facial surgery and could see them at a 100 miles away after seeing say 1 a week.
then the insurance company refused to pay as they said ....We are not her principle insurance company!!! so who is? I am a stay at home mum? oh yer! tell me who is! I had to spend 3 days back and forth to the insurance company and hospital, before it was sorted, and know I have to do the same with the Doctor's bill, you are spending a ton on administration! truly the most time I spent with any individual in that hospital was the woman who took my Health insurance details...
and the hygiene and privacy don't even get me started, shocking!
At one point I had to tell the nurse, who was senior, "you want me to sign this consent form?" "yes" says he.. "after you have taken my glasses away?" more shocking "yes"! and no offer of my glasses back!
you guys have missed the boat and and are happy to have a life expectancy, less than the average Brit, with a worse infant mortality rate than us, then pop away at the UK and Canada, Australia, Oh and we paid a lot less every month for it. enjoy, I am glad to live in the US surrounded By US Citizens who believe in Health Care reform. that sounded bad but every single friend I have in CT believes in Health care reform, that said they either are ill and cann't get health insurance or a majority work for a company which has offices in the UK and for some reason most of them have experience the NHS? they are very clumsy! LOL! so uninformed American's, if you want to continue spending 16% of your GDP on a useless system, compared to 6% UK for Health Care fire away , the reason it is cheap, in the UK collective bargaining, the people who pay and the people who play in the US are not collective, so no collective bargaining
and I too would fight to my save the NHS as the Canadians are saying on their health care..


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RE: Canada's health care

I too am glad you are Canadian, oilpainter. Many times in this blog and the one on American healthcare you say you Americans or Americans as in all for one and one for all. But I am reading that many Americans agree with you in certain aspects of reform and policy changing and yet you are so tired of Americans dissing you all the time. Well frankly I am tired of you and knew you would not get off your throne. Don't bother responding, I won't be back to check in.


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RE: Canada's health care

earthworthy:
You came into this post looking for a fight, and I didn't give you one so you fabricated one. I'm glad you won't be back. Unlike you I admit when I'm wrong, but I don't grovel when I'm right.

You want to believe I'm glad I'm Canadian and I'm glad we have universal health care.


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RE: Canada's health care

There are many problems no matter how health care is delivered and paid for in any country. The great weaknesses of taxpayer financed health care are rationing, gate keeping, slow innovation, bureaucratic prioritization and empire building, huge cost escalation, corruption, political grandstanding and outright lying in search of support among the "we want something for nothing" voters.


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RE: Canada's health care

laat2

Untrue--All our statistics and costs are published. In the States they are not. If you want to talk costs The United states government spends 25% more per person on health care than the Canadian government. How many Americans have no health coverage and how many more could be covered by spending what we spend.

As for wanting something for nothing that is also untrue. Every province has different health co payments, but we all pay some kind of payments for health care. Granted the co payments are geared to income and none are exhorbitant, but we do pay.


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RE: Canada's health care

Oilpainter, please be carefull of your statistical comparisions.

Just in the previous post, you state:

"The United states government spends 25% more per perosn on health care than the Canadian government. How many Americans have no health coverage and how many more could be covered by spending what we spend."

Health care and health coverage are two different things.
It is because so many choose not to have HEALTH COVERAGE that so many leave the burden on the United States Government to pay for the HEALTH CARE.

If people choose to enter the health care system through emergency care (and that is where the biggest losses are), then of course, the costs are sky high. I can go to my GP for an Upper Respiratory Infection, and he can treat me for much less than and ER can. For one thing, the ER must be equiped with the highest tech equipment available for any contingiency -- and that has to be paid for. If the ER does not, then the lawyers step in and say they are negligent for not being current.

Also, we in the United States are required to treat ANYONE presenting at an ER, even if they are not citizens or have ability to pay. Canadians are not. I was in Winnipeg and had a smashed hand. Did not have insurance cards with me and was TURNED AWAY. I was driven back to the United States by car for treatment (the border guard on the US side saw my hand and stated I wasn't the first one he'd seen that month coming back for treatment after being denied.)

Perhaps if we in the United States had the right to turn away non-citizens, we too could lower our costs. I don't believe we will ever become that uncompassionate.

And isn't the Canadian Premier from New Foundland coming to the United States for heart surgery because he couldn't get the care he needs in Canada??? Apparently he is one Canadian that didn't want your style of healthcare.


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RE: Canada's health care

The statistics I quoted were what your government spends on medicare. It has nothing to do with ER or treatment for nonresidents.

I don't know which hospital you went to but you should have been treated in that ER but not for free. Canadians are certainly not treated for free in the USA. We have to pay if we are treated in the USA. That's why Canadians get suplimental health coverage when they travel to the USA.

As for former Preimer, Danny Williams. He could have gotten the same health care in Canada,in a timely fashion. He could have gone to a hospital that specializes in heart surgery, but he decided not to. You aren't the only one questioning his decision. Canadians are quite upset about it. He's not stating his reasons however.

I am not saying the USA doesn't have good health care, it does, if you can pay. Canada has good health care too and we don't pay.


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RE: Canada's health care

Medicare covers the 65 and older group. Are you comparing like groups? Canada's 65+ population vs. the U.S. population? This group takes the most health care dollars.

Beemer has a good point. Illegals place a huge burden on our health care system. According to wikkipedia, the burden is much larger in the US than in Canada. This cost is shifted to those who can pay. There was just a case in the news where an illegal received very expensive treatment and was not expected to fully recover. The US wanted to ship him back to his native country. There was a huge outcry of protest. If the protesters wanted to pay for his continuing care I wouldn't have a problem with it. Right now several hospitals in Florida are having financial problems with the influx of Haitians. If they get paid at all, it will be by the US government.

I disagree with the statement Canadians don't pay for their health care.

It should be a source of pride that Canada has no CITIZENS going bankrupt or going without healthcare.


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RE: Canada's health care

Ok I don't know too much about your health care and I'm not sure about my medicare statement. I thought medicare covered other people besides the elderly.

I do know that the USA pays much more for health care than any other country. It has been documented over and over. But I don't want to labor that point.

We have doctors in Haiti and a hospital set up there and our doctors and nurses are treating people there. Others are getting clean drinking water by processing it through their machines. Not just Canadians but many countries including the USA, are trying to help. There are some cases being airlifted out to other countries and it serves the USA well that they are being generous in this way.

Canadians do pay health premiums and our taxes pay for some of it, so our health care is not free. However our health spending has caps on it. You will get a nice clean room in a hospital but no perks, no abnormals costs for drugs, or tests. The costs for those things are set by the government so no matter what the hospital wants they only get what every other hospital gets for that same test or drug. That's how costs are controlled.

It is a source of pride that no one can be made bankrupt by having a medical issue and that all Canadians and immigrants are covered for health care. I hope that in some way your politicians find a way to work together to bring health care to everyone there, in a way that works for all of you.


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RE: Canada's health care

Just depends how much $$ you have...doesn't it?

If your poor, Canada's system is a dream...for something is better than nothing.

If your rich, you can pay as you go in the US of A and get top quality service. But if your not rich, and don't have job supplied healthcare - then your out of luck in the US.

I think Kaiser is wrong on their estimates here. Just the one year premium raise in CA approached their total 10 year increase. In 10 years it may cost $100,000+ for a healthcare policy!

"Kaiser forecast that the yearly family premium for health insurance could reach $30,803.00 in ten years if the 8.7% annual increase of the previous 10 years were to continue."

Go out a further 10 years. Now, the average premium is $70,939.00 per year at an 8.7% annual increase. Would you like to be forced under penalty of law to pay a $70,000 a year bill as Obama has proposed?

[url]http://www.kff.org/pullingittogether/091509_altman.cfm[/url]

There is ONLY one solution to the healthcare mess in the US of A. The solution is this. We need a 'SOCIALIZED HEALTHCARE' plan for the poor (people making under $150,000 a year) as well as a 'FEE FOR SERVICE' plan for the rich. (current healthcare plan in the US.)

If some of the citizens don't like receiving socialized government run healthcare, then they can always go the private healthcare route and pay their own way. Just as they can do with private education, if public schools are not to their liking.

This is the only way a socialized healthcare proposal would work in the US of A. You need duplicate healthcare systems to satisfy all comers. Whether they be the rich, as well as the poor that cannot afford the rich 'fee for service' healthcare system.


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RE: Canada's health care

Wow, that's a very generous definition of the poor (less than 150,000 a year).

Isn't that how many "socialized healthcare" systems already work? If you're not satisfied, you pay for additional insurance coverage or pay out of pocket? An Italian family member says that's how Italy works. Wikipedia says that's how Germany works. The Canadian official who had heart surgery paid his way in the US because he did not like the options he had in his country. The lucky US 65+ crowd are the ones who can afford supplemental insurance.

I would love to see affordable health care for all in the US. Right now, the discussion seems to be about health insurance, not health care, and the special interest groups seem to be better represented than the consumers.


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RE: Canada's health care

ruffian:

Let's get this straight. This politican made this choice not on reality but his perceived reality and he should have known better. He could have gotten the same operation with the same results in Canada. He paid his own way so he made his choice.

We in Canada don't want a 2 tier health system. One for the rich and one for the rest of us. I know other countries have them but to me and many Canadians when you have 2 tier health systems the rich get the best because they have the ability to pay. The rest get second class care, because there is fewer dollars going into the pot and the government has to pick up the slack. Besides that hospitals who can pay more attract the best doctors.

If every hospital gets the same money it's a different story. If every doctor is paid the same according to his specialty that too is a different story. Every person is treated equally. You only have to look ar school funding to see what would happen to health care.

I really hope that things work out for our neighbors to the south.


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RE: Canada's health care

The sidewalk evangelist who screams the loudest is usually the one with the greatest doubts about his faith. Why don't you give it a rest.


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RE: Canada's health care

Laat2

What's the matter--can't take the truth. Seems to me you are the one with the doubts


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RE: Canada's health care

I am an American and I don't believe in bashing another country's health care. No country has "perfect" health care - it may be "perfect" for some but you can't make everyone happy!

I'm just sick and tired of not having health insurance or coverage. I have lived most of my adult life (and probably my childhood but my parents never made it known whether we had insurance or not - they just took us to the dr. anyway) without health insurance.

At the moment, my family is on Transitional Medicaid. My husband was laid off at one point last year and we were put on Medicaid. When he got a job, they put us on Transitional Medicaid for an additional 6 months. After the 6 months, we get cut off and that's that. My daughter will stay on Medicaid no matter what (unless our income increases dramatically) but my husband and I are out of luck. We can't afford it through his work because his company lowered the amount they pay towards health insurance. It would cost us probably $600 a month or more and it's not possible.

So we only go to the Dr. when absolutely necessary. We make minimum payments on our growing bill. The local pharmacy helps somewhat because a lot of the most prescribed meds (antibiotics, antidepressants, etc) are on a lowered rate. But I have one medication that will cost me over $300 a month unless I can sign up for some form of assistance.

In my opinion, our current health care system works exactly how the USA itself works: If you have the money, good for you! If you don't, oh well, have a nice day!

I'm sorry if you feel attacked because some Americans have been bashing your health care in Canada. In my opinion, America and Americans have no right to bash anyone's health care system. Our system is obviously the worst of all the developed countries. I, personally, would rather have Canada's health care than the system we have now. I have several friends who live or lived in Canada and your health care sounds amazing compared to what we have now!

I'm not saying that we should "get something for nothing" as one previous poster said. But I do believe that the cost of health care or insurance or whatever should be based on income. And not how the gov't bases things on income right now! They need to take into account ALL the bills/debts that the person has to pay a month - not just rent/mortgage and utilities. I think that the "rich" people should have to pay more for their health coverage and that the "poor" should pay less. If we all paid the same amount, how fair would that be?

Say a "poor" person brings in $1,600 a month and a rich person brings in $10,000 a month. If the coverage costs $300 a month, the poor person would be stretched to the max considering his other possible bills. The rich person would still live comfortably and might even save money if his previous coverage cost more - whereas the poor person probably never even have had coverage to begin with.

I also believe there should be different levels of coverage - but even the cheapest coverage should cover ALL the basics - including vision, dental, inpatient, outpatient, medications, etc. Just with the basic plan, you wouldn't get any extra perks, your medications would be generic (if available) but you would be guaranteed quality care. There should be no lifetime caps and for people with low incomes, the co-pays should be lowered. No one should be turned away for preexisting conditions or health concerns. Even if I could afford it, I wouldn't be able to get health insurance because I'm hypothyroid! And that's one of the cheapest, easiest, most common disorders to treat. You get a blood test once a year and cheap medication. That's it - unless the patient doesn't take care of themselves and they get a goiter or something. Women shouldn't get higher rates just because we require extra care during pregnancy, birth, and after pregnancy. It's not our faults that we're the ones who give birth! I'm sure some of us would rather the men take over that job sometimes!

I also think that people who KNOWINGLY cause harm to their body (such as smoking or doing drugs) should have to pay higher premiums. Not trying to put those people down or irritate them, but we've all been told a million times that smoking causes cancer and if you keep doing it, you'll probably get cancer.

Likewise, someone who has quit or is quitting should get a discount and should be able to receive quitting aids at a cheap price. Same with someone who is trying to lose weight and/or get healthier - they should be able to get a discount and receive any diet aids or gym memberships at a discount.

American doctors definitely need to focus more on prevention rather than just treating the disease after it occurs. For example, I have had chronic tonsil infections since I was a child. Doctors used to just take out someone's tonsils when they kept getting infected - thus preventing the person having to visit the doctor every time they needed antibiotics for an infection. Not anymore. I just have to keep going back and getting more antibiotics. If they had just taken them out when I was a kid, I wouldn't have this problem.

Sorry for the ranting - I'm just very very irritated about this whole subject. I DID vote for Obama mostly because he promised change. I, like most people, was incredibly frustrated with how Bush ran this country into the ground. And I understand that something as major as health reform takes time. But they have been working on it forever now and they're getting no where! I'm really getting sick of the people who want things to stay the way they are - they obviously don't care about how others are surviving in this country. All they care about is the fact that they can afford insurance and they live comfortably so that's all that matters. Everyone should have a right to receive health care at an affordable and reasonable price no matter what conditions they already have. Everyone.


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RE: Canada's health care

china cat84

Stories like yours is what prompted a Canadian politican named Tommy Douglas to work tirelessly to get universal health care in my country. He was voted by Canadians to be the most important Canadian ever, that is how much we value our health care.

You are right it is not perfect. There are changes being made all the time to make it better and it does not cover prescriptions unless you are a senior. Our prescriptions are cheaper than yours though, but just as good. The reason they are cheaper is that they are capped and the patient is only good for a few years and then the genaric makers can make them.

I do hope that you can get help.


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RE: Canada's health care

You seem to forget a few items along the way.

When OHIP (medical insurance) started in Ontario a 5% sales tax started as well to cover the provincial government's portion of the cost. This was in addition to personal premiums to be paid monthly by individuals. The federal government portion of costs caused huge deficits for over a decade afterward that ballooned the national debt to a point where the country's credit standing was going to be downgraded.

Your concept of drug pricing is primitive. Almost all new cutting edge drugs are imported from the USA and are very expensive here and do not enter the government approved price controlled market without serious delay. When they do get approval the price drop via monopoly government control lets the companies make little more than their overhead in Canada. Companies make the money to pay off their research costs in the American market while we freeload. But when Obama copies us there will be no cushion to fund the 100 or 1000 research programs that result in two hit discoveries that succeed and pay the costs for everything. Without new drug discoveries hospital stays will increase but hospital beds have been cut back to save money because drugs permit shorter stays. Hint: costs will skyrocket, so will taxes.

Doing my income taxes I notice a $600 medical surtax as an additional charge on top of everything else now. I wonder why.


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RE: Canada's health care

laat2
What I would like to know is why someone who lives in Ontario would try so hard to misrepresent our health care with so many lies.

Your statements are totally false. Lester B person introduced the health care act in 1966. I was married in 1965. I just looked at a bill I had for pictures in with my wedding album. I paid 8% sales tax on those pictures.

Another lie--Just when and where and to whom do you pay health premiums. You must be the only Ontarian who does. Now if you lived in Alberta or another province maybe, but not Ontario. Our health premiums are and have always been included on our income tax forms and that is how we pay premiums--not a health surcharge--no where is it ever called that.

Another lie--Our health coverage in no way caused the deficit. Freewielding spenders like Malroney caused the deficit.

As for drug pricing--If my explaination is wrong then explain to me why so many Americans are buying their drugs in Canada where the cost is 1/3 of what the same drug is in the States

Not all cutting edge drugs are produced in the States. Research and development of drugs takes place in all countries of the developed world.

The States like us have a regulative body that has to approve all drugs. Personally I think this is a good thing. Too many times drugs are put on the market without adequite testing.

For companies who make little more than their overhead drug companies are making a profit that any company would die for. Their patents are protected for the first few years and they make more than enough then, and they still sell their drugs after genaric drugs hit the market. Contrary to your dire predictions they are finding out that some of the old drugs are better than the new ones.

If you are not happy with our health care, I invite you to leave and go to a country where there is no universal health care. If you have any more lies to tell then bring them on and I'll give them the same treatment


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We are all entitled to our own opinions, it's called free speech in case you are unfamiliar with it. It is a basic American concept you might also find not to your taste. You are also not entitled to your own facts.

A careful reading of my statement re 5% sales tax would be factual to anyone with some knowledge of the subject, unlike you. I enclose an excerpt from Hansard that may help to educate those who might be interested. The last sentence is of particular relevance :

"The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Linda Jeffrey): The member from Mississauga-Streetsville.

Mr. Bob Delaney: I want to say hello to Ontario, and especially those of you who are watching this at Heritage Square in Meadowvale.

Now that we're all together, I do want to talk. Once upon a time, a long time ago, in fact, it was back in 1961, a Premier of Ontario raised taxes. His name was Leslie Frost, and later that year, he was succeeded by a young guy named John Robarts. That government instituted a retail sales tax. I think it was supposed to be called the RST, but the government of the day was worried it would be called the Robarts Sales Tax, so it became known as the PST, for provincial sales tax. Way back then there was no such expression as, say, "service sector." Just to give you an idea: John F. Kennedy was in his first year as president, and the Chicago Blackhawks had just beaten the Detroit Red Wings for the Stanley Cup.

How many of us still live in the same house we occupied in 1961? How many of us still drive the same car? How many of us wear the same clothes we did in 1961? More importantly, how many of us still do business like we did in 1961? Now, those of you who are meeting with other seniors at the older adult centre in Square One might want to really pay attention to this. The Conservative Party in Ontario would have us continue to pay taxes like we did in 1961. Now, the rest of the world has moved on, it's modernized, and Ontario simply seeks to do the same. Since Conservative Premier Leslie Frost brought in the sales tax at 3%, and Conservative Premiers John Robarts and Bill Davis increased the tax to 8%, Ontario has changed and so has the world."
End quote.

You are, to use a Texas expression, "All hat and no cattle".

When unwelcome truths are offered, the first tools reached for by the left are libel and slander.

Trudeau was the deficit guy, thanks to medicare, no one else ever came close. He even used to borrow the money to pay the interest on the national debt.

Have a nice day.


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RE: Canada's health care

laat:

First Mrs. Jeffery is a member from Brampton-Springdale not Missisauga-Streetsville. Secondly she is a member of today's parliment not 1966.

No where in this speach does she say that sales tax was raised because of health care. Mr Robarts was Premier from 1961 to 1971. Mr Davis from 1971 to 1985.

The fact remains that I have an envelope that my wedding photos came in in 1965 where it is clearly stated in writing sales tax 8%. I can produce my proof. Can you give me any concrete proof that sales tax rose because of health care. All you seem able to produce is some speech that may or may not be factual(politicians do make mistakes when researching). A speech that never once mentions health care.

The fact is that in 1970 the cost for health care was 7% of GDP- hardly a big expenditure.

Yes Trudeau was the deficit guy and Mulroney made it even higher. Your cute expressions don't change facts and you are one mixed up guy.


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RE: Canada's health care

Thanks for your appreciation of my "cute expressions." I thought "All hat and no cattle" and "unwelcome truths" fitted you to a "T".

A mumpsimus who either has quite some difficulty when it comes to reading comprehension or perhaps the format used by Hansard like you might not be best one to lecture Americans on their health care. Not that I'm saying you can't, or if you wish to continue, you shouldn't. Being persuasive just isn't your forte.

Have an even nicer day.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hansard Reference


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RE: Canada's health care

Why don't you two take this p*** contest over to Hot Topics? It really doesn't belong in this forum.


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RE: Canada's health care

No problem--I'm done with this hot air balloon


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RE: Canada's health care

An excellent choice for everyone concerned.


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RE: Canada's health care

For anyone who reads Laat's last reference HST is harmonized sales tax and has nothing to do with health care


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RE: Canada's health care

An excellent choice for EVERYONE concerned.


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RE: Canada's health care

Are you two still in a p*** contest to see who gets the last word in? Enough already!


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RE: Canada's health care

sushipup:

If you don't like this post why do you keep coming back? Take a long walk off a short pier


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RE: Canada's health care

Unfortnately, it's not even about health care anymore.

It's about our Congress at war with itself.
It's about "conservatives" vs "liberals". (Aren't we all supposed to be fellow Americans?)
It's about people who can't accept an African-American president, or anything he wants to do.
It's about money, not human need.
It's about outrageous lies to sway people who have not read the long document.
It's about the insurance companies' stranglehold on the practice of medicine.

The fall of Rome began from within, when the ruling classes split into factions. Nothing could be accomplished. Nothing could be decided, just endless squabbling. It's a shame. It makes me scared for my country and the people in it, sick or well.


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RE: Canada's health care

I agree with a lot of scarletts points. America does need a good health care system whether its nationalized or not, the greed and graft and other money grubbing loopholes need to be plugged. American needs health care/insurance that gets them quality service for the best price possible. That's not going to happen as long as we have people in the system milking it for everything its worth. Thats from the politicians on down to the lowest man on the totem pole.

IF Canada's HCS is working for all citizens without rationing services then we need to send a committee north to see how it's done.


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RE: Canada's health care

Pris:

Americans need to look at ALL universal health care plans. There are many of them in many different countries. I'm not saying that ours is perfect. Americans have the benifit of all those who went before them. Surely they could find one that would work for everyone. The only trouble is those big insurance companies want to keep the status quo that they've enjoyed for so long. I have no doubt that they are the fly in the ointment


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RE: Canada's health care

I don't disagree, oilpainter. But after watching all the bruhaha the past 13 months, I don't see that happening. As nearly as I can tell, the greed and graft starts at the top and filters all the way down. You have members of Congress pushing their own agendas thru and tacking them on to the health care bill. The money has to come from somewhere. You either raise the cost to the people or cut needed services. So far it's a lose, lose situation for those of us who need it most.


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RE: Canada's health care

Good example.

Here is a link that might be useful: Canada Slow Drug Approval


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RE: Canada's health care

laat---you are one sick puppy. If you think I'm going to argue with you again and point out just how rediculous you are--think again. I don't suffer fools gladly or any other way.


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RE: Canada's health care

Mumpsimus, never fear, you are entitled to your own opinions. Please don't respond to my facts and information on any of my future posts. Let the sensible posters on this thread decide what is relevant to them without your unhelpful vituperation and argumentum ad hominem.


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RE: Canada's health care

I started this thread and now I'm closing it. I won't be back. So spew your venom a ll you want latt


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RE: Canada's health care

Another example to ponder when it comes to government run heath care.

Here is a link that might be useful: Saving Canadian Lives In The USA


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RE: Canada's health care

I have been gleaning through these postings and believe Oilpainter, you just don't like the negative comparisons between ours and the Canadian system. And I'm fine with that.

But we are two totally different countries, and mindsets. You believe the government is better than private insurance, and we don't.

We just passed a law that only 36% of Americans wanted. That statistic was taken the day before the final vote. Americans DO want health insurance reform, but not that bill.

I truly believe America has the finest health care on the planet, and there are many hospitals near the Canadian border for a reason.

Your Prime Minister came to Florida because he couldn't get the type of surgery he wanted in Canada. All he could get there was surgery where his bones would be broken and his chest ripped open. He found a doctor in the US who inserted a probe under his arm and repaired his heart without invasive surgery. This procedure is unavailable in Canada. His words, not mine. He also said he didn't want to "jump in front of the line" in Canada. Is there a waiting line for heart surgery? I don't know, I'm asking a question.

And as far as wait times, I watch HGTV and I see Canadian produced shows, and most are better than some US programming. But when I see a show involving health care, I always hear about "getting on the list" for a procedure. Can you please tell us what that means?

And what if you need an MRI? Or a CAT scan? Or just an Xray to check on something? From the time you are told you need one to the time you have it, how long is the time span? One day? One week? One month? I don't know, so I'm asking you. What if you don't live in a city? Does that make any difference? How far must you travel to get an MRI if you live in say, Joliette, Quebec?

How does the Canadian legal system work in cases of malpractice? Do you have constant frivolous lawsuits? Do Canadian doctors pay up to a quarter million dollars in malpractice insurance annually? Do Canadians look at malpractice as the way to win the lottery? Do you have constant commercials on TV by lawyers saying that "If you have bedsores, we can get you MONEY!"?

I know your Supreme Court or it's equlivent has ruled Canadians can buy health insurance from private companies. Doesn't that fly in the face of the whole National Health Care idea? Why would Canadians want private health insurance?

I'm not being confrontational, I'm just asking questions that only you can answer.


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RE: Canada's health care

christopher--I think you should get along with laat just fine. You both make up facts to suit yourselves and I won't dignify your outright lies with a response.

THIS POST IS CLOSED> PLEASE DON'T POST AGAIN


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RE: Canada's health care

Have I "made up" anything? If so, then please set me straight.

All I did was ask questions based on information I have.

Honest questions hoping to have an intelligent conversation and seek out facts from someone who lives in Canada. I was trying to find the truth.

And based on your reply, I guess I did.


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RE: Canada's health care

I guess I piqued my own curiosity with my questions, so I wet to CANADIAN sites for the answers.

The average wait time in Canada for a non emergency MRI is 47 days. I had to have one last week, and I got it within 24 hours. I got the prescription at 2 PM on Wednesday, and I had the procedure done at 9 AM on Thursday. In Bennington, Vermont. Not exactly a big city.(Not even a small city! Three traffic lights.)

As of July 2008 there were 26 MRI machines for every 1 million people in the US, and 6 MRI machines for every 1 million people in Canada.

There are now 70 private providers in Quebec who are not involved in the government system, and they can get a patient an MRI within 7 days. The reason is because they are purchasing their own machines, and making a profit on them.

There are no private health insurance plans currently in Canada, but the High Court has indeed allowed it.

Canadian doctors must carry malpractice insurance, but they are reimbursed by the government for a major portion of their premium.

There is a cap on lawsuits in Canada, and million dollar awards are "extremely rare" there.

Drugs are price controled by the government in Canada.

I got my answers from Canadian Government sites, Canadian Law sites, and Canadian medical sites. There were no agendas involved.

Oilpainter, you like your system, and that's fine! It's just that a vast majority of Americans don't want the government to run our lives, that's all. I guess it's in our DNA not to ever trust the government, whereas I guess you guys have come to rely on it. That doesn't mean it's bad, it just means it's different.


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RE: Canada's health care

Your info on MRI's is old info--that's the trouble with the internet some of what's there is not current. I got an MRI in just over a week and if I had a serious condition it would have been within 24 hours and I didn't pay a cent for it.

Believe me there are just as many Canadians who don't trust the government. The government can't just run willy nilly through the health system as you seem to think. What it can do is set standards and limits on what can be charged. I like that part just fine.

I presume that now that America has voted in health care that you will now let this thread die a quick death. I am heartily sick of the whole thing.

All I wanted in the first place is for Americans--and as it turned out some wiseacres trying to make trouble-- to stop making up stories. Is that so wrong. I wonder if Americans would have done things differently--I doubt it.


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RE: Canada's health care

The info I got was from 2008, and from Canadian health and government sources.

Yes the Congress voted for the Bill and Obie signed it. But it doesn't go into effect until 2014. The trouble is that only 36% of Americans were in favor of that Bill and it was rammed through anyway. So we have four years to fix it.
And get it right this time.


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RE: Canada's health care

I read in the newspaper that a panel on health care reform in Washington did a study and concluded that the United States could, in fact, have a viable social health care system with one caveat; it can't work without controlling immigration. Otherwise, the system would become too expensive to function. Here in California the hospitals are going bankrupt, wholesale, because of the free care they have to give to people who get their primary care in the emergency room. They can't be turned away, and the emergency rooms that are still hanging on have to shut down because they have no beds left. People who are there because of a legimate emergency have long waits and are treated in the gurney because there are no beds left. I can't speak for other states, but in this state there are literally millions of people who pay nothing into the system, and never will. Many of them make good money, get state aid, pay no state or federal income tax, and will continue to get their health care for free in the emergency room. At least Canada can pass a law to alleviate the problem which the U.S. seems unable to do.


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RE: Canada's health care

Wow !! I just happened to touch on this forum to see what it was all about, I didn't realize there was a fight forum. But I guess if a couple of idiots happen to meet in the fog sh*t happens.


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RE: Canada's health care


May I please add a different point of view? As an American I want everyone to have affordable health care BUT any program should be thoroughly researched before you jump on the bandwagon.

This letter appeared in the Indianapolis Star (which is owned by the same people who own the Arizona Republic) and was sent to a very popular Indiana Senator.

An Indianapolis doctor's letter to Sen. Bayh about the Bill [Note: Dr. Stephen E. Frazer, MD practices as an anesthesiologist in Indianapolis, IN ] Here is a letter I sent to Senator Bayh.. Feel free to copy it and send it around to all other representatives. -- Stephen Fraser


Senator Bayh,
As a practicing physician I have major concerns with the health care bill before Congress. I actually have read the bill and am shocked by the brazenness of the government's proposed involvement in the patient-physician relationship. The very idea that the government will dictate and ration patient care is dangerous and certainly not helpful in designing a health care system that works for all. Every physician I work with agrees that we need to fix our health care system, but the proposed bills currently making their way through congress will be a disaster if passed.
I ask you respectfully and as a patriotic American to look at the following troubling lines I have read in the bill. You cannot possibly believe these proposals are in the best interests of the country and our fellow citizens.

Page 22 of the HC Bill: Mandates that the Govt will audit books of all employers that self-insure!!

Page 30 Sec 123 of HC bill: THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.

Page 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill: YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!!
Page 42 of HC Bill: The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC benefits for you. You have no choice!

Page 50 Section 152 in HC bill: HC will be provided to ALL non-US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

Page 58 HC Bill: Govt will have real-time access to individuals' finances & a 'National ID Health card' will be issued! (Papers please!)

Page 59 HC Bill lines 21-24: Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for elective funds transfer. (Time for more cash and carry)

Page 65 Sec 164: Is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions & community organizations: (ACORN).

Page 84 Sec 203 HC bill: Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the 'Exchange.'
Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans -- The Govt will ration your health care!
Page 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill: Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. (Translation: illegal aliens.)
Page 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18: The Govt will use groups (I.e. ACORN & Americorps) to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan.

Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans. (AARP members - your health care WILL be rationed!)
Page 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill: Medicaid eligible individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. (No choice.)

Page 12 4 lines 24-25 HC: No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt monopoly.

Page 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill: Doctors/ American Medical Association - The Govt will tell YOU what salary you can make.

Page 145 Line 15-17: An Employer MUST auto-enroll employees into public option plan. (NO choice!)

Page 126 Lines 22-25: Employers MUST pay for HC for part-time employees ANDtheir families. (Employees shouldn't get excited about this as employers will be forced to reduce its work force, benefits, and wages/salaries to cover such a huge expense.)

Page 149 Lines 16-24: ANY Employer with payroll 401k & above who does not provide public option will pay 8% tax on all payroll! (See the last comment in parenthesis.)
Page 150 Lines 9-13: A business with payroll between $251K & $401K who doesn't provide public option will pay 2-6% tax on all payroll.
Page 167 Lines 18-23: ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.

Page 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill: Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.) (Like always)

Page 195 HC Bill: Officers & employees of the GOVT HC Admin.. will have access to ALL Americans' finances and personal records. (I guess so they can 'deduct' their fees)

Page 203 Line 14-15 HC: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." (Yes, it really says that!) ( a 'fee' instead)

Page 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill: Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid Seniors. (Low-income and the poor are affected.)

Page 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill: Doctors: It doesn't matter what specialty you have trained yourself in -- you will all be paid the same! (Just TRY to tell me that's not Socialism!)

Page 253 Line 10-18: The Govt sets the value of a doctor's time, profession, judgment, etc. (Literally-- the value of humans.)

Page 265 Sec 1131: The Govt mandates and controls productivity for "private" HC industries.
Page 268 Sec 1141: The federal Govt regulates the rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
Page 272 SEC. 1145: TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
Page 280 Sec 1151: The Govt will penalize hospitals for whatever the Govt deems preventable (i.e...re-admissions).

Page 298 Lines 9-11: Doctors: If you treat a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission -- the Govt will penalize you.
Page 317 L 13-20: PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. (The Govt tells doctors what and how much they can own!)
Page 317-318 lines 21-25, 1-3: PROHIBITION on expansion. (The Govt is mandating that hospitals cannot expand.)

Page 321 2-13: Hospitals have the opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input is required. (Can you say ACORN?)
Page 335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339: The Govt mandates establishment of=2 outcome-based measures. (HC the way they want -- rationing.)

Page 341 Lines 3-9: The Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc. (Forcing people into the Govt plan)
Page 354 Sec 1177: The Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of 'special needs people!' Unbelievable!
Page 379 Sec 1191: The Govt creates more bureaucracy via a "Tele-Health Advisory Committee." (Can you say HC by phone?)
Page 425 Lines 4-12: The Govt mandates "Advance-Care Planning Consult." (Think senior citizens end-of-life patients.)
Page 425 Lines 17-19: The Govt will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. (And it's mandatory!)

Page 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3: The Govt provides an "approved" list of end-of-life resources; guiding you in death. (Also called 'assisted suicide.')(Sounds like Soylent Green to me.)

Page 427 Lines 15-24: The Govt mandates a program for orders on "end-of-life." (The Govt has a say in how your life ends!)
Page 429 Lines 1-9: An "advanced-care planning consultant" will be used frequently as a patient's health deteriorates.
Page 429 Lines 10-12: An "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end-of-life plans.. (AN ORDER TO DIE FROM THE GOVERNMENT?!?)

Page 429 Lines 13-25: The GOVT will specify which doctors can write an end-of-life order.. (I wouldn't want to stand before God after getting paid for THAT job!)

Page 430 Lines 11-15: The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end-of-life! (Again -- no choice!)
Page 469: Community-Based Home Medical Services = Non-Profit Organizations. (Hello? ACORN Medical Services here!?!)
Page 489 Sec 1308: The Govt will cover marriage and family therapy. (Which means Govt will insert itself into your marriage even.)

Page 494-498: Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, and rationing those services.


Senator, I guarantee that I personally will do everything possible to inform patients and my fellow physicians about the dangers of the proposed bills you and your colleagues are debating.
Furthermore, if you vote for a bill that enforces socialized medicine on the country and destroys the doctor-patient relationship, I will do everything in my power to make sure you lose your job in the next election.
Respectfully,
Stephen E. Fraser, MD



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RE: Canada's health care

Please check your Snopes before posting things like that, Southern Magnolia. It is erroneous in many ways.

In short, Snopes says that the letter was originally purported to be to someone else besides Bayh, it has been circulating since 2009, referencing an older version of the Health Care bill, it was not attributed to Dr. Fraser at first, and many of the claims are in error (check link on Snopes website).

Here is a link that might be useful: Snopes report


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RE: Canada's health care

Interestingly enough, there are plenty of better health care systems in many European countries, and yet the US can't help themselves by poking fingers at ours. I believe it is the health care providers that have a vested interest in keeping any others from competing in the market.


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RE: Canada's health care

Well here is one American who has been around the world. We have a very rotten healthcare system, ranked 37th in the world. France has the best, followed by the rest of europe. ALL have universal health care and have had it since the end of WW2.
I am retireing to Mexico, Better health care,cheaper and reasonable living conditions.
It really boggles my mind why Mexicans want to move here,tho alot have moved back across the border.


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RE: Canada's health care

A Money Saving Tips Forum is where Americans come to find out how to save money.
When people become uninsurable medically, they have a permanent problem.
Societies all over the world have faced this problem.
Except here.

Hope this helps.


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RE: Canada's health care

I think most Americans would be envious of this senario. I had a kidney transplant 3 years ago in Calgary Alberta Canada. I never received one bill for this procedure. I'll fight tooth and nail to keep our system of health care and keep out the private clinics.


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RE: Canada's health care

Google: Joshua Mayandy

Here is a link that might be useful: Another example from Readers Digest


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RE: Canada's health care

You want to start all over again latt--no dice.

An article written about Canada by an American company when Americans were having a discussion on the matter. Everyone who has read this post knows how you fabricate and twist the truth--so no dice


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RE: Canada's health care

Anyone interested in watching a painter at work in oils ...

... while enjoying a lattee??

I thought for a while that those guys had gone to sleep!

ole joyful


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RE: Canada's health care

The problem I have always found with the USA system is "nobody wants to pay for the service they receive". It is easy to demand universal or single payer system, but do you want to pay for it? We can't get rid of the illegal immigrants as it is in the USA. Can anyone imagine what would happen if we had a universal/single payer system with our illegal immigrant problem?


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RE: Canada's health care

Other countries have an "illegal immigrant problem" so stop being so "-centric" and look at how they weed these people out of the free medical care service. The question to ask, and the information to go find out, is whether or not illegal immigrants in Canada or in CountryX are forced to pay in emergencies.


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RE: Canada's health care

Illegal immigration is not just a "USA problem", but a huge problem across the world. There is no question that illegals hurt our economy, schools, medical system and increase crime. I lived in San Diego for years and watched a once great school system get crushed by the illegals. The medical system was overwhelmed and crime, yes illegals do a lot of crime, went up.

The idea of creating a "Canada style" medical plan for the USA might work if we would solve, i.e. deport, more illegal immigrants. Their own countries need to solve the social and economic problems and quit exporting them to the USA.


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RE: Canada's health care

Here's the helpful government!

Here is a link that might be useful: Satirical Truths


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RE: Canada's health care

You want government controlled healthcare in the US - fine, go sit at the VA for a while & see how US Government healthcare works in reality.

It's really not fair to compare countries healthcare systems against each other. Each country has a different agenda & it's somewhat reflected by their government. Canada's system may well work in Canada, but their government has different priorities than ours.

Something needs to be done to help the poor, but leave my private employer provided coverage alone! I do not want US Government sponsored healthcare shoved down my throat by the idiots we keep electing.


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RE: Canada's health care

THIS SHOULD NOT BE HERE!!! IT BELONGS IN "HOT TOPICS"!!! Go back and read the introduction to Gardenweb.


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RE: Canada's health care

Wow, this was a pretty amazing thread. And since it was strated back when Obamacare was the main theme of Washington instead of JOBS, we have seen where it has ended up. The Supreme Court. A Court made up of 4 Liberals, 4 Conservatives, and a Libertarian, who wants to follow the US Constitution, which is different than Canada's. This is possibly the most BALANCED Court in decades.

Oil Painter doesn't like us bashing Canada. Too bad. A majority of Americans don't want the Canadian style of health insurance. And we definitely don't want any mandates forcing us to purchase a product.

Is our heath insurance system perfect? Absolutely not! We need to get the lawyers out of it, and allow Americans to purchase whatever insurance they want from whomever they want.

We have possibly the best madical care in the world. We must, as people come from all over the world for our medical care. Access is instant, and nobody is turned away from emergency care. There are more MRI machines in New York State alone than in all of Canada. And if Canadians are happy with that. who am I to care?

There will be a decision from SCOTUS in June. Only 27% of Americans want Obamacare to remain as it is. Not a very good number.


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RE: Canada's health care

Two articles regarding the subject are worthwhile to read:

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/16/health-insurance-is-for-everyone/

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/26/zakaria-how-to-save-american-health-care/

It is extremely arguable that "We have possibly the best madical(medical) care in the world.", it is highly likely that we have the most expensive health care in the world.

"There are more MRI machines in New York State alone than in all of Canada.", at what expense to use these machines? Last year Dr. prescribed MRI scan ($2500.00 per usage) and CT Scan ($1700 per usage) for DH for symptoms he experienced. It turned out he had seasonal allergy. I suspect the over prescribed diagnosis is to cover physicians' legal risks.

We each work for a huge fortune 100 company, we were told that we have good employer provided medical insurance. Starting this year, our medical insurance comes with $2000.00 per person per year deductible (not including vision and dental), and we are paying, out of pocket, "discount" rate for doctor office visit (average $130.00 per visit) and prescription drugs (vary by the cost of the medicine). We are paying over $200.00 per month, per person for insurance premium. It is high for us while we have professional job incomes with no dependent. We have been wondering how average income families with young dependents manage their health care.

It is astonishing that after years of debating, spent countless tax payers' money, now they want to undo/redo healthcare policy decisions and start all over again.

I am fine with that as long as while they are engaging in perpetual debating, these policy makers/judges/congress persons should not allowed to have any health care coverage, not even the ones purchased with their own money, then they would understand the urgency, and suffering of the people who do not have, or could not afford, adequate health care.


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RE: Canada's health care

I saw a blood specialist the other day, following blood clots in the lungs about a year and a half ago.

Usually wake as needed - but woke at 9, due to see him at 9. Phone call to apologize, out the door without squeezy socks (but clad, otherwise) ... 30 min. late.

Nurse dealing with my case heard my entry, I was called in, everything ship shape - "come back in a year".

Usually park (free) at a distance - had parked in the hosp. parking lot, came on here to refer to the situation (at Kitchen Table), spoke of my concern for the $3.50 parking fee (under 1/2 hour).

That was my total cost.

Our provincial gov't. had charged an annual fee for health insurance several years ago, it was cancelled later: some provinces have one, some don't.

Prior to a recent election, the leader of the party operating the government in our province had promised, "NO ... NEW ... TAXES!".

After winning the election and being installed, he found that medical costs were gobbling up large quantities of money ...

... so found it necessary to implement a "Health Levy" to help cover them ... that's not a new tax, you understand!

It's calculated on our (federal and provincial) income tax return ... at the end. And, should you happen to have some credits remaining after completing the provincial portion - you don't use a "minus" sign - just write, "0", please - as the "Health Levy"'s not a "tax" ... you understand that, don't you?

Then ...calculate the graduated fee of your "Health Levy" (if your [taxable?] income is over $20,000.00), please.

At about $44,000. taxable income - my health levy last year was $450.00 ... and I'm doing my tax return now and expect that it'll be about the same, this year).

All of which having been said - I do not complain about helping to pay for the health coverage that, until a couple of years ago, I had scarcely ever used.

By the way - our docs are private operators, who bill the single-payer system.

They can operate privately, if they so choose - but if they choose that, they can't bill the single-payer system: they must operate totally on a fee-for-service-paid-by-the-recipient basis. Few choose that route.

ole joyfuelled


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Interesting thread. I have experienced Canadian health care for 22 years and American health care for the last 10. I can sum it up pretty simply.
Canadian health care is wonderful as long as you are healthy and American health care is wonderful as long as you have money (or great job benefits).
I have experienced that in the US you get tested and diagnosed, in general, much more quickly than in CAD. But in the US, currently as small business owners purchasing our own insurance, it is extremely expensive and a huge percentage of our budget. It is 75% of what we pay for our mortgage. And we are a small, young, healthy family. Every year the cost goes up. Much higher than at the rate of inflation.


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frmrsdghtr - you summed it up perfectly. We live in Ontario and are under 65 - not by much, but still, under 65, which does make a difference (joyfulguy - you are over 65 so would benefit from many things that we do not). OHIP (the Ontario Health Plan) is about to cut many services (eyes - and I don't mean "normal" eye care) - I mean for people like my husband who has had a vitrectomy and cataract surgery. People who are diabetics often have major eye problems etc. and this will affect them - and not all are obese. My husband's eyes are bad enough that one of his eye specialists (he has 3) has been able to run his quarterly eye tests through OHIP, but at his May 8 appointment he was told that he would not be able to do this any longer - and his office plan won't cover it. My husband pays high premiums for family coverage (just the two of us) - yet has deductibles of $1,250 for EACH of medical and dental - so we basically pay for everything due to the deductibles - and since he has only one prescription for eye drops and I have one prescription we are not your "normal" Cdns. Even his office health care provider remarked that for people paying such high premiums we had very few claims (well, they wouldn't pay for his vitrectomy rehab equipment, nothing towards his sleep apnea dental appliance, his office dental plan does not cover specialists (and his regular dentist - an oral surgeon, no longer does root canals) plus there is the deductible problem. Back in the day your GP could zap a wart - now you need to be referred to a derm (heck, I could do it). I had several moles develop suddenly on my neck last year - it took over 6 months to get a derm appointment - and that was with a different derm - first one was going to be 9 months - and both required referrals from my GP. Yet, if I wanted to have something cosmetic done, I could have been seen next day. I have searched the OHIP site but little has been posted yet. The news showed the cost of the glaucoma test being $63.00 with OHIP paying the doctors $25.00 - but that must be for the cost of the equipment, because my husband pays over $200 for each test, so I think they need to get the facts straight. Fees to radiologists are being cut back which will affect mammograms (techs do the mammos but they are read by the radiologist so I guess backlog will come into play, and EKGs. Certain heart tests are being cut as well. I know that if you need a lower back X-Ray it will have to be seriously justified by your doctor. Every time I am supposed to have a bone density test (despite confirming day before) I arrive and am told that I can't have it for another year or two - but I am welcome to pay for it. I fully expect to never be able to get one again! According to my pharmacist, retired people post 65 can have their prescriptions covered, but they must take Generic pills. I can't take Generics - it isn't the meds factor, it is the non-medicinal ingredients I am allergic to - as are many others - and many seniors are paying the substantial difference themselves. My husband recently had a discussion with a N.Y. taxi driver who told him how lucky he was to live in Canada where dental, medical and vision (even glasses) are 100% paid for. My husband tried to set him straight - but the guy didn't believe him. I have had the same discussions in the U.S. and people think I am wrong. As if, I live here. My husband's cousin had to travel from Ontario to the Mayo Clinic to be diagosed with ALS (no one saw that one coming). She had been falling down for well over a year and it was going to take her another year to be seen by a specialist - so they paid to go to Mayo - and this was the horrible result. She is 54 years old. I know what the cost was to go to the Mayo Clinic and I think they could have bought a house in Michigan for less. If we need an MRI we can get it much more quickly in the U.S. - but we have to pay for it. Same with tests for prostate cancer etc. Is our health care better than what you have in the U.S. - DEFINITELY. Is it the health care that people think we have - NO. And let's not forget that we pay very high taxes and do not enjoy the many deductions that Americans have. There would have to be some give and take for the Americans to have our plans. Of course people who work for the government or are represented by strong unions (teachers, postal workers etc.) have excellent pension plans and retirement benefits. The average person working in private business does not. That would be us. If we take out private plans such as Blue Cross the costs are high - much like in the U.S. - and coverage is minimal - not to mention that everything seems to be pre-existing. When you read the list I don't think there is anything that the normal person hasn't experienced at least once in their respective lifetime. This is definitely not the time for my husband to be facing retirement - the economy is horrible - here as well - and we have been earning nil on our investment funds. But our banking laws are a lot better! Actually, the mail just arrived - bringing with it a letter from my husband's GP advising of the cost of this year's premium to cover non-insured services - I have the same with my doctor - it is about $100 - $125.00 for individual coverage. I am very happy with his doctor - for the first time they are offer fees for Individuals, COUPLES, or Families. There are many couples such as us who pay for people with several kids etc., yet we do not get one single tax break - period.


 o
RE: Canada's health care

I am ENVIOUS of Canadian health care!

Please forgive the proud and determinedly ignorant among us. They are many unfortunately.
You are great neighbors.
Peace.


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