There are always inequities...

I'd be happy the $8 town didn't hear that they can get $15 from people...

...but that's just me! :D

The reason they make it so difficult is to prevent identity theft. We even see identity theft where our clients have died and somebody gets their death certificate. It has their social security numbers, etc. Next thing you know there's a car loan in the name of somebody who died two months ago and the car is gone.
The fact that two towns charge different amounts is up to them.(and those are small charges compared to some large cities)

Someone is pulling your leg. No state requires a "marriage certificate" to renew a drivers license.

This must have been a recent marriage with a name change. I know when I got married eight years ago I did have to show copies of the official marriage certificate issued by the state. I was allowed to photocopy it for most of the changes I made like W-4 forms. If I remember correctly, the Social Security Administration made me either mail an official copy in or go by in person so they could verify it.

I'm getting ready to get a new driver's license in a new state. All I need to have is a current license in another state and a second id that could be almost anything like a social security card or high school diploma.

This is copied and pasted from our state DMV site and comes from the "First Time Applicants" list:

**If the applicants name has changed, then an original or a certified copy of a certified marriage certificate, divorce decree, or court order is also required. (Additional documents may be required if a connection between the documents can not be established.)**

It is not required for renewals.

i bought a new car last year and had to let them copy my drivers license for a picture of identity. Identity seems to be a problem everywhere. Could i have bought a car without a drivers license?
oakleif

Sure, you can purchase an auto without having a drivers license. A grandparent can buy a car for their grandchild for instance. They can purchase a car an put it in the kid's name.

Or;

Years ago all women did not learn to drive like they do now, and often times widows continued to always keep a car and have their kids, (who usually had drivers licenses but no car), drive them around. I've seen a lot of cases like this. They purchase a car and keep it in their name as the owner.

You can own a car without a license - you just can't drive it. For auto insurance you must list who the driver of the auto is.

The main reason the auto dealers photo your DL is to put you into their data base and into their contact list. Also, when they leave to 'go photocopy it' they quickly enter the into into a computer to check on your credit rating so they can see how serious of a buyer you are, and how far they can "push" you to the limits of your financial means. When they hand your DL back to you they know ALL about you.

If you are going to test drive an auto they must make sure you are a licensed driver. Not having a DL won't keep them from selling you all the cars you wish to purchase. You can buy a whole fleet of cars.

" Also, when they leave to 'go photocopy it' they quickly enter the into into a computer to check on your credit rating so they can see how serious of a buyer you are, and how far they can "push" you to the limits of your financial means. When they hand your DL back to you they know ALL about you."

Bud I need to jump in on this.

They can not run a credit report on you unless you sign the release form. Sometimes they "fail" to tell you that the form you fill out with your name and information has a line saying it is ok to check my credit. But unless you sign this form they can't.
So Don't sign anythinig unless you have found the car and price you want.

Just to set the record straight here. In our state, when you RENEW your driver's license, you have to produce several forms of ID. Just took mom to the DMV this morning, so I can assure you that these are ALL necessary.

You have to have your birth certificate. If your name has ever changed (in Mom's case, her marriage was in '42), you have to provide an official marriage license (quoted from MV info, "certificates from religious institutions are NOT acceptable"), you have to have your old license, your Social Security number, proof of your address (a current bill, bank statement, etc). In some cases, there are other requirements, as well--naturalized citizens have to have their citizenship papers, for example.

Maybe some states don't require so much ID, but ours does, and they sit and check each and every piece of it with a fine-toothed comb before they issue the renewal. Count yourself lucky, if you can still renew your license by mail, or if you don't need so much documentation, but I bet the day is coming when you will also--it's all to do with the protection against terrorists, of course

As to the car--it's in her name, she needs to be responsible for the insurance and upkeep. I would not want the responsibility/liability of it and the insurance being in my name--I have too much I could lose that way. And, again, I don't know about other states, but here, to insure your car, you do need to provide proof of your license, your driving record. We do live in a very highly regulated state.

Exactly. States can name their own price for providing a marriage cert,death cert or any other document. There is another option. If a person is married in a church, wouldn't that church have records? Of course, you may want to make a charitable "donation" in exchange for them providing the document. But that could be deducted on your tax return.

Jannie--both mom and I had our original marriage certificates--the ones that were issued by our church when we got married. They used to be all you needed to legally prove a marriage, however, as I noted in my response above yours, the church marriage certificates are no longer considered legal documents. You have to get an official copy from the town where you were married, from the registrar of vital statistics, on the proper form, with the town's raised seal on it.

I'm a little surprised that so many others don't seem to have to go through this in their own states. Very interesting.

"Of course, you may want to make a charitable "donation" in exchange for them providing the document. But that could be deducted on your tax return."

Not really...
It is only a deduction if no goods or services are received for the gift.
Since you are receiving both... no deduction.

myfask, you are mostly correct on that. But in the state where I live (Wisconsin) anyone can use CCAP to check up on anyone. Evictions. Small claims. Driving violations. Judgments from utility companies. Unpaid loans from bank. Disorderly conduct. Divorce proceedings. It's all there.

No one has to sign anything.

It may not be as complete as running it through Equifax or Trans Union and it does not give you a person's credit rating score, the *magic number*, but it serves a good enough purpose for a quick check for as auto salesperson to size you up while they try to manuver you into a sale. CCAP is free and is just a click of a mouse. It may not be available in all states.

Yes, when it comes right down to *applying for the loan*, they will give you paperwork to sign to have credit reporting agencies release info to be used for the loan application. That is a different animal altogether.

A lot of people do not know what CCAP is, and even those who own computers and have heard of CCAP to not suspect how sneaky sales people can be. Do you know that when the sales person leaves the two of you in the office "alone" to "discuss" things that the office is probably bugged? One easy way they do this is to leave the speakerphone on, on their desk when they leave the room, or they can just have the room wired. They say they wire the offices so that employees can be monitered for training purposes. The laws regarding this are entirely different than those regulating the recording of phone conversations, and even those differ from state to state. You can bug your own office or home for "security purposes". You cannot sell or publicly display these recodings. They may not be able to be used in court proceedings but they can be used in investigations.

BTW, when you shop for a funeral, and the sales person leaves you alone to grieve and discuss the funeral expenses in their office - the room is probably bugged.

+++++

azzalea, This must be something new and apparently your state is very strict now. I've never had to produce anything other than my expired DL to get a new one. Or just I renewed by mail. I just recently got a DL after not having one for years and I did not have to show anything except my old one. This new stuff you are saying sounds like a nightmare.

Church documents were never considered "legal documents" recognized by the state. Maybe a county or state clerk accepted a church's 'marriage certificate', but they did so out of ignorance and not in accordance with the law. I can't tell you how many times I've carded someone in a bar and they produce one of those little wallet sized church 'marriage certificates' so that an under 21y/o can drink as a spouse. I tell them I need to see a marriage license with a judges signature on it and they never come back with it. HA! I'm not going to go to jail over some college prank.

I can tell you, that you can purchase a car from a dealership without a drivers license. I just recently did just that. They even delivered the car right to my garage. And there is also auto insurance that is just to insure the car and does not insure me as a driver. This may vary from state to state of course.

I was already in the process of buying the car when they asked to copy my DL. They already knew my credit rating and no one pushes me into paying more for a car than i know what its worth.They cost too much money as it is. and also i'd already got the insurance on it from the company i'd had for many years. They did try to get me to change insurance companys. Not likely!!!
oakleif

thanks bud
i have never heard of CCAP
I am going to look it up to learn more
karla

It's called; Access to the Public Records of the Consolidated Court Automation Programs (CCAP) here in Wisconsin. If you Google CCAP it is the first thing on the list.

You will get this link:
http://wcca.wicourts.gov/index.xsl

The same system is put into place in other states and will have a different name.

Here is a link to other states that have open records available online:

http://www.ncsconline.org/WC/Publications/StateLinks/PriPubStateLinks.htm

Article with links for access:

http://www.cdt.org/publications/020821courtrecords.shtml

In Wisconsin there has already been a move to eliminate a lot of the *personal details* from the records online to protect people from stalkers and such, who use the information gained, for nefarious purposes. The records used to show so much more info about a persons life. Now most of them only show the cases filed and the outcome. Also now, if it is not a felony, the birthdate of the person is no longer shown online.

There is nothing to prevent a potential employer or landlord (or auto saleperson), from using CCAP to check out someone. No record exists of who has accessed your info.

Anyway CCAP does not give a credit report with things like late payments on a mortgage and such, but is useful for salespeople to size up a potential mark, er, I mean customer.

The US Social Security Administration will accept a religious marriage certificate as legal proof of marriage. Even if your state DMV will not. By the way, a marriage cert is not required to get a drivers license. Single people are allowed to drive.

Jannie--yes, of course, single people are allowed to drive.

However, in my state, a birth certificate is required to renew your license. IF your current legal name doesn't match your birth certificate, you MUST provide legal proof of each and every change. That means, if you're married, you have to present a legal marriage certificate (and believe me--religious certificates are NOT allowed--I've had that arguement with the MVC, and lost) for each marriage. If you've changed your name by some other means, you have to show proof of that, too.

Look, you can argue these points all you like, but in the state of NJ, if one wants to drive, they have to provide adequate documents to satisfy the 6 point identity system. If you don't want to boither, you don't have to drive.

Apparently, this isn't the case in many, many other states. In many, you don't even have to present yourself to the MVC office to renew--it can be done by mail. But the rules are determined by each state, so while your state might be simpler, NJ is not.

Here's a link to the Motor Vehicle Commission's online document help--for people to line up their documents before they go in to renew their licenses. Maybe it will clear up some of the misunderstandings (or disbelief) on this thread. It does go on for several pages of the site--I've linked to the overview page, but it goes on from there.

Posted by Posted by azzalea; However, in my state, a birth certificate is required to renew your license.
++++++++

It does not say that on the link you provided. Not at all. It says that you can just renew with a current DL and one other form of ID (like a school ID) and proof of current address. Ther are other combos of ID's but nothing that requires a BC for renewal.

OK, I took their 6 point ID verification test that was in the link you provided, and there is nothing there that REQUIRES one to present a marriage license. OR AS BIRTH CERTIFICATE TO RENEW. Read the link that you posted. It does NOT say anything about being *required* (as you say) to present a BC to *renew* a DL!

The results the first time I took it:

Congratulations!
Current total points:6
Your selected documents :
*Current NJ Digital Driver License.
*US school photo ID card with transcript or school records.
*Checking or savings account statement from the past 60 days.

I tried all sort of different combos of ID and got the same results.

Presenting a current NJ drivers license does not need a marriage license or divorce decree.

Neither does presenting a DL from another state:

Congratulations!
Current total points:6
Your selected documents:
*Certificate of citizenship.
*Current PHOTO driver license from any other state or the District of Columbia.
*Current health insurance card, prescription card or employee ID card with printed pay stub.
*Original lease/rental agreement.

I even took the test as a non-citizen and nope, nothing to require all the paper work you suggest.

The only time you need to present a marriage license, is IF you are presenting a birth certificate as your ID rather than your current NJ or out of state drivers license, and the name on it is different than the one you wish to use on your license.

You do not NEED all that paperwork that you are saying, for a renewal.

Ah, but what you don't understand is that NO ONE has a current digital NJ license if they're renewing (those have only been in existance for a year or 2). An old, non-photo (which is what most of us have), non-digital license isn't on the list as ID at all. You do have to present your license, since they destroy it when they issue the new one.

Look, regardless of how you're reading that list, I can assure you, having gone through this twice in the past year (renewing mine and helping my mom renew hers), the folks at motor vehicles WILL NOT even talk to you if you don't have your BC and 'official' proof of every name change along the way. They sent me home the first time I went in, because I took my BC and my CHURCH-ISSUED marriage certificate.

Azzalea is exactly right. You MUST have either a birth certificate or passport (which you obtain by presenting a birth certificate) to renew your license. People in my office have been turned away because they did not. In addition, you have to document any name changes from the name on the b/c; i.e., marriage certificate.

I was told that several of the 9/11 hijackers, as well as others, such as the first WTC bombers, had NJ driver's licenses as proof of identity. As a result, the requirements are now very stringent. As a matter of fact, one county had issued so many fraudulent b/c's that they are no longer accepted by the state or by the federal government for passport requirements. Of course, this is the county in which I was born.

Isn't this a great site, where people learn rules of procedure, among other things?

I'm glad that Karla learned something that seemed to interest her.

I learned some stuff, too - and I've often said that it's a poor day that one doesn't learn something.

Much of the info that I've lerned on this thread is stuff that I don't see where I'll have any need of, so an paying little attention to it, really.

As far as our system goes in Ontario, when a clergyperson officially regstered with the state by his denomination marries someone, the couple have bought a marriage lcence, when they sign after the ceremony, and the clergyperson does, as well, and s/he then sends it to the Dep't. of Vital Statistics, who record the info.

Hopes offered here for a great weekend for each one of you.

ole joyful

"I learned some stuff, too - and I've often said that it's a poor day that one doesn't learn something."

OJ
I have always said "try to learn one new thing a day no matter how small it may seem"
glad to see someone else who feels the same.
sending you a warm sunny weekend from here in Fla.

karla

mammavan wrote; As a matter of fact, one county had issued so many fraudulent b/c's that they are no longer accepted by the state or by the federal government for passport requirements. Of course, this is the county in which I was born.
+++++++++

So what on earth does one do when the state refuses to accept your BC because they don't like the county you were born in?? You aren't allowed to get a DL?? And you can't get a passport to go on vacation either?

I'm taking all of this with a huge grain of salt.

Bud, I'm from the other end of the state from Mammavan, but I had noticed in the paperwork the state sent my mom with her renewal form, that birth certificates from certain counties weren't admissable--it's absolutely true.

And really--what possible reasone would ANYone have to come to a site and make something like this up? And what kind of freaky imagination would you have to have? Everything we've posted here about NJ MVC is true.

Just another example of NJ government in action, I'm afraid. It's nuts here, and really expensive to live--which is why most folks escape as soon as they retire.

If this is true, that in a small state like NJ, that birth certificates from certain counties are no longer valid, then something like this needs to be aired on CNN or Fox news networks. This sort of thing would be too huge to be a mere matter to whine about on a gardening board. People's lives would be ruined over a thing like this.

You're saying that a birth certificate is *required* for renewal of a drivers license, and now you're also saying that the state of NJ refuses to recognize birth certificates from certain counties????

So you would be just $h!t out of luck if you wish to drive in the state of NJ and was unlucky enough to be born in one of the counties that they don't like.

And the Feds won't accept your NJ birth certificate either, for a passport, if it is from certain counties?

Call Wolf Blitzer or maybe Oprah. This sort of government screw up should be making national news - - if it is true.

I have difficulty understanding why Bud Wi would think we who live in NJ are misinformed about these things, but to put his/her mind at ease, this is from the State of NJ web site:

"The U. S. Department of State, which has the authority to issue passports, will no longer accept any birth certificate issued by the Jersey City/Hudson County Office of Vital Statistics which contains the raised seal from Hudson County

"If you are applying for a passport, you are required to obtain a new certified copy of your birth certificate from the State Bureau of Vital Statistics and Registration.

"Effective January 1, 2007 the Motor Vehicle Commission (MVC) will require that all individuals whose birth occurred prior to 1965 and whose birth certificate was issued by the Jersey City/Hudson County Office of Vital Statistics obtain a State issued certified copy of their birth certificate to conduct business with the MVC."

Obtaining a state-issued b/c requires a in-person trip to the state capital or a 6-8 week mail process, which could put a crimp in your plans if you are applying for a passport for an up-coming trip. Living in NJ is not for the faint of heart.

So, Bud, would you like a pretzel with that grain of salt?

In some states, (MI?) you can't buy a motorcycle unless you have a motorcycle license. I would not be at all surprised if some states had the "car license" thing as well in their laws.
Some laws just blow my mind that they ever got passed.

You can buy a vehicle without a driver's license. You can not buy auto insurance without a driver's license. You can't legally own the car without the insurance.

Blue_velevet_elvis, maybe in your state, but not in all states. If I buy a car without having a DL and get it titled in my name, (which I did do) and don't get around to getting it insured right away, then who owns it???

mammavan, I do not mean to be argumentive. And I am deeply sorry if I came across as glib. I can see how my post could be read that way.

What I am saying, is that this story should really go to a news reporting agency. I mean seriously.

One of the things on the list for renrewal of a DL was a current DL. Now it was explained to me that NO ONE has one of the "new" DL that can be used for renewal. I understand now. It was explained to me in one of the later posts.

Then it was said that BC from certain counties are no longer valid for DL or passports. If that is so, (I don't mean IF, but rather just if.) then how on earth can someone get a DL? How is someone going to get a new BC? You can't get a BC without some sort of ID and you can't get a DL without a BC. It's sort of a catch-22 isn't it?

I appologize, I do not mean to come across as snarky. I am only asking questions because I am dumbfounded hearing about the situtation.

Bud, when we register our cars, it's a requirement that we list our insurance company and policy number on the application form (and we have to supply that each time we renew). We cannot buy insurance here, without a license--not only that, but the insurance company does a search of our license to check our driving records--and heaven forbid if you lie about ANY of that. So in effect, you must have a license to own a car.

Are you saying you can register a car without offering insurance info in your state? We can't. And it's illegal to own an unregistered car (even if it just sits at the back of your driveway and never moves). I've actually known folks who had unregistered cars stored on their own property--planning to fix them up and register them in the future--who got in trouble with law enforcement. They had to either register the car within a few days, or get rid of it.

I think the thing here is that we're from opposite sides of the country, and our state's regulations are vastly different. It's just as difficult for me to believe that you would be allowed to own an uninsured car in your jurisdiction, as it is for you to believe NJ's MVC rules and regs.

Interesting...It was some years ago that our state converted to licences with a photo, and there was a lot of talk that ours was the last state to still use paper drivers' licences. Obviously, those who thought so were mistaken.

In our state, automobile insurance became mandatory maybe ten or so years ago. Only those who had accidents while uninsured were required to show proof of insurance to register.

I'm sorry if i mislead anyone. The Auto Sales people wanted my picture copied on the license to prove i was who i said i was. It is kinda funny LOL to buy a brand new car to use as a car bomb. Then again i would hate for someone to buy a new car and leave me with the bill.
vickie

Bud_Wi, I'm sorry if this wasn't clear. If you have a pre-1965 B/C Hudson County, you need to get a state-issued B/C. That takes an in-person, business-hours trip to the state capital. If you are not able to do this, you can obtain one by mail, but it takes 6-8 weeks (and costs about $35, I believe). You can imagine going into a MV office agency and being told that your D/L, which expires in 2-3 weeks cannot be renewed with your present B/C and not being able to get a state-issued one for 6-8 weeks. The only way I heard of this was from an irate letter to the editor in my local paper from someone who had experienced that. It was fortunate that I did because a family member, who now lives out of state, planned to apply for a first passport and would have had a serious problem in getting a new B/C in time to obtain the passport. The fees for a rush passport are very high.

The only reasons I can think of for not having this more widely publicized are: (1) they want to catch people who are using fraudulent B/C's; or (2) it's not newsworthy that it's tough to live in NJ!

I didn't think you were being snarky, and I apologize for being flip.

In Minnesota, they can require you to have driver's license, social security card, birth certificate, and marriage license. They don't always require it. Maybe if they suspect ID fraud or someone moves here from out of state or something. I lost my license a couple of weeks ago (first time ever). Went to the license bureau, filled out a form and showed them my older license. They didn't ask for anything else.