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weedyacres

Squeaky stairs

weedyacres
12 years ago

We ripped out our horrid berber-carpeted stairs and installed oak treads and poplar risers. The stringers were not all even, so I had to do a lot of shimming to ensure the treads were resting on all 3 stringers, not just one and a half.

Nonetheless, they still have squeaks when you walk up or down. I've gone below and crammed in more shims, but I can't completely rid the stairs of squeaks.

Any suggestions?

Comments (12)

  • handymac
    12 years ago

    How did you install the treads? Directly onto the stringers? Nails or screws?

    Using shims is pretty much a guarantee for squeaks on stairs when the treads are set directly on the stringers. Because the weight of a person is increased on stairs as weight is on less area per square inch and the treads have only three mounting points which allows more movement.

    Installing finished treads on foundation treads(2by material or even plywood) is much better. Install those with screws through the material into the stringers with the proper wood screws.

    Using roofing felt or rosin paper under the finished treads prevents squeaks.

    To install the finished treads, use the proper wood screws to screw up through the foundation material into the bottom of the treads. Or install the screws from the top and use plugs to cover the countersunk screw holes.

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    I asked about screws vs. nails in an older post but no one piped up on that issue, so I used construction adhesive and finish nails directly onto the stringers.

    I can't (well, don't want to) rip the whole thing out, and in any case the screwed-in-sub-tread isn't an option because it would mess up the evenness of the rise on the top and bottom stairs. I could potentially add screws to the treads and plug, if that would solve the problem. Given that the treads are already stained, is it problematic to stain & poly just the plugs?

    So is there a remedy to eliminate the squeaks at this point? Any kind of way to fill it in from the underside besides shims?

  • handymac
    12 years ago

    When I make plugs, I use a piece of the same wood used in the job, same stain, same finish. I install the plugs before staining/finishing because that allows me to more closely match the grain patterns. And, when installing the plugs, they have to be cut flush and sanded smooth to the tread surface.

    I don't know how to fix your problem given what you want/don't want to do. It seems you will just have to experiment.

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    So you'd rip the whole thing out and start over? :-) (actually that emoticon should probably be a grimace.) Or screw & plug & refinish the treads in place?

  • handymac
    12 years ago

    Yes, many times there are multiple ways to accomplish a task. In this case, doing it right is about the best long term quiet fix.

    But, if you do that, the first step is getting the stringers equal, without shims. In don't know why they are uneven, but trying to shim is the biggest part of the problem.

    A basic explanation of why the stairs squeak. Wood is compressable. Softwoods compress easily, while hardwoods are less compressable. What you have done is combine woods with three different density factors---the stringers, the shims, and the treads. Then you created three small load points for each tread(the area each tread rests on the stringers).

    You saw there were gaps, so logic said add shims to fill the gaps. Good logic, but not on stairs made of wood because of the compressability.

    The other gotcha is that wood moves due to weather, temperature, and stress. When a persons weight is added to a tread, the stress causes movement. Very slight movement, but squeaks happen with undetectable movement.

    And, construction adhesive is designed to account for wood movement by allowing for a bit of expansion/contraction. And, nails allow for a lot of movement, with finishing nails allowing even more due to the smaller head size.

    So, what you did was very logical and seemingly the right way to deal with a situation. The reality is you got level treads with squeaks because of incorrect assembly steps that seemed logical.

    Catch 22 sort of. You did what intelligent people would do logically, but wood requires different logic.

    What the subtreads do is create a wide point of contact and allow for squeak reduction when rosin paper or roofing felt isd applied between the sub tread and finish treads. It separates the two types of wood and does not allow squeaks. The woods still move, but not against each other and not in small points of contact.

    The screws retard the wood movement, minimizing the small stress movements because screws allow less movement than nails.

    In once worked on a customer's house because she wanted her squeaky floors to not squeak. The house was only 11 years old and carpeted in the areas that squeaked. There was access to the subfloor in the basement. I used several ways to try and fix the squeaks, but failed to fix about four places. The other areas were squeaking because there was wood movement between the subfloor and the floor joists. Adding screws or metal shim/screw pieces stopped the small wood movement causeing the squeaks.

    What was happening in those places was that the subfloor had began to delaminate---come apart internally. The separating layers moved against each other as a persons weight was applied---and made a squeak. The only repair that worked in those areas was to remove the subfloor---in those areas only---and replace.

    Was a lot of work and cost, but at the end of the job, there were no squeaks.

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Thanks for your continued patient explanations. Given that this issue of movement is the root cause that needs to be eliminated, what are potential, if not 100% ideal, options to minimize/eliminate? Can we:

    1. sister 2xsomething wood to the "short" stringers with screws, butting them up to the underside of the tread? In most cases the center one is lower, but some of the RH side ones are a tad low as well.
    2. screw in L-brackets from below to hold treads either off the stringer or to the stringer (in either case eliminating the rubbing).
    3. this one's probably way out there, but can we replace wood shims with something that will fill the gap, hold the tread up but won't squeak? spray foam? caulk? power grab?
    4. some combination of the above

  • handymac
    12 years ago

    Actually, there is one idea that might work. You might need to make the L brackets yourself from 2" aluminum angle stock.

    Find a metal supply place to buy the stock, it will be cheaper.

    Cut a length just a bit shorter than the treads are wide---you will install them under the treads.

    Drill 3 or 4 holes in each side---the size of the screws you will use to install the brackets. You will see angle stock with oval or oblong holes already made---those holes will be too big and allow movement---which will allow the squeaks to still happen as well as allowing the treads to be looser.

    Make three brackets per tread. use 1" long screws in the stringers and 3/4" screws into the bottom of the treads. Use #10 screws for the stringers and #8 for the treads.

    What you want to do is raise the treads just a fraction uip off the stringer and install the brackets. That will support the treads and keep them off the stringers just enough to not squeak.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Aluminum angle stock

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    We actually use a lot of 2x2 angle steel at my company, so I can collect some off-cuts, drill the holes and try it out.

    Thanks!

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    OK, finally following up on this. We screwed angle in at all the tread/stringer connections and it helped a lot. But there's still squeakiness. Upon close observation, it looks like what's left is coming from the cove molding we've got nailed under the tread. Either the tread is rubbing on the cove or the tread is pushing the cove down and it's rubbing against the riser.

    Thoughts on how to fix this?

  • glennsfc
    12 years ago

    Found this post late. If you carefully remove the cove molding, you will probably find a small gap between the tread and riser. Upon further examination, you may see finishing nails protruding from the bottom of the tread into the top of the riser. If that is so, then have someone step on the offending tread and see how much the tread moves downward in relation to how much the riser moves. You may come to the conclusion that it is the finishing nail shank rubbing inside the riser that is causing the noise.

    The fix would be to stop the movement of the tread in relation to the riser. Lots of ways to do this. You can glue and tack a wood block at the underside of the staircase, if there is access under the staircase. Or, you can use shims from the front to make the tread and riser to move as one unit. And, you can also cut the finishing nail, so the nail shank will no longer move in the wood of the riser.

    Reattach the cove molding when all is quiet.

  • weedyacres
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Glenn:
    There are small gaps between the bottom of the tread and the top of the riser. That's why we added the cove molding around the bottom. There are no nails nailing the tread to the riser, though. Just nails from tread to top of stringer and from riser to front of stringer.

    I'll verify when I get home tomorrow night, but latest observation appears to be that the remaining squeaks are from the cove molding rubbing against either tread or riser. Could we remedy this by pulling off the cove and gluing it to the underside of the tread (thus covering the tread-to-riser gap) but just a smidgen away from (and not touching) the riser?

    Other ideas?

  • millworkman
    12 years ago

    you may even be able to put a piece of 1/16" high bond tape to hold the cove moulding in place

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