Replacing aluminum windows in masonry house

16 years ago

Hi, we need to replace our aluminum windows in our cape house. It is brick on the outside with concrete block behind the brick as the structural element. We are going to use vinyl replacement windows, we don't have the money for custom sized wood windows. We have had several contractors give us quotes, most of them want to put a wood frame inside the opening before the window goes in, which will, of course mean a slightly smaller window and capping on the outside. Two contractors do not want to put a wood frame in, only what is needed, if any, as shims, but basically want to attach the window directly to the masonry. The prices are about the same either way, so it would seem that the people putting the wood framing in are doing a lot more work for the same money, but the other way seems like it would be a neater job, with the window butting right up against the brick. Does anyone know which way is better? Is the wood framing necessary to help support the window, because without it, the window seems like it will have less support points where it will actually touch the window "frame". Behind the brick veneer, on the sides, the concrete block is recessed about 1/2 inch deeper than the brick (on the outside) or the plaster (on the inside), and on the top there is simply a cavity behind the brick (there is only air between the brick (exterior) and the plaster interior, and on the bottom is also a cavity between the brick and plaster (with some furring strips behind the plaster). If anyone has any thoughts, experience or knowledge of this type of situation I would greatly appreciate your advice.

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Comments (10)

joe71
Original Author
16 years ago
One more question, should I be concerned about putting flashing around the window (and/or a sill pan underneath the window) prior to installing new windows (so that any water that does get through the window frame will be directed away from the interior of the house)? We live in SE Pennsylvania, where we don't really get too much wind driven rain, but we sometimes do. Thanks.
Michael
16 years ago
A wooden buckframe is the norm of most professionals. The buckframe is then wrapped with flashing tape according to the AAMA specifications.

This provides a firm wall surrounding for the vinyl window frame, the tape provides weatherproofing, and then the foam insulation between the window frame and buckframe insulates and also adheres the window frame to the buckframe.

Of course, the install crew is expected to use Window Pro Foam or similar product that is non expanding.

To finish the install, an OG stop on the inside is fastened to the buckframe and the exterior is trimmed out with aluminum trim coil, followed by a quality fenestration caulk.

For the best install, I recommend the buckframe option when using vinyl windows.

Michael
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joe71
Original Author
16 years ago
Thank you brushworks, you sound like you know what you're talking about. Are you an installer? Also, any thoughts on installing what I think is called a "sill pan" (made of metal or pvc) underneath the window frame? Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
Michael
16 years ago
A sill pan is a very good idea as long as it's installed correctly.

We specify a sill pan for all patio doors when installed by our crews. It seems that every house that we install a new patio door in requires a subfloor repair, which we follow up with a sill pan to prevent future water infiltrations.
We fabricate it in the field with .024 aluminum coil.

Thanks for the compliments. I am not an installer, I just teach 'em how. :) And I also inspect for my company.

Michael
brickeyee
16 years ago
Buck frames are a quick way to install windows for folks who do not know how to work in masonry openings.
All they do is add another layer of junk to cause leaks and problems.
It is the "norm of most professionals" because it is cheap, fast, and easy.
You can fasten windows into a masonry opening using Tapcon fasteners and polyurethane caulk.
It is slower and takes more care, the reason it is not the 'preferred' method.
With bucks you WILL loose at least 1.5 inches of window size in each dimension (3/4 inch wood all around).
It will also result in larger exterior moldings to cover up the extra 3/4 inch.
Even worse are the weenies who install the new windows inside the existing casings.
joe71
Original Author
16 years ago
Thanks for your replies. Brickeye, the contractor we got a quote from who is not going to use a buckframe is also not planning to use polyurethane caulk, he told me is going to use regular 35 year caulk. Is that important? Is any flashing or sill pans used with the non-buckframe method. Or, do you just use tapcon screws and caulk? Are you a window installer yourself? Thanks.
joe71
Original Author
16 years ago
The contractor said he would charge us more to install a wood frame than without, so, for him it seems to be more work to put the frame in. This seems to be different than what you have said in your post, brickeye. Any thoughts on why that would be?
Michael
16 years ago
It's ok, Joe.

He loves to attack a plan that isn't his.

That time of the month, maybe.

Michael
joe71
Original Author
16 years ago
Gotta love the gardenweb.
brickeyee
16 years ago
"It's ok, Joe.

He loves to attack a plan that isn't his. "

No, I run a couple different businesses and don't always have a large amount of time.
Looks like we landed a contract for 3 years worth about $9M, so that one is stable for a while.

I prefer the polyurethane caulks for windows in brick (and especially masonry) openings, but ask him exactly what type of "regular 35 year caulk" he plans on using. It might actually be polyurethane. The butyl caulks are usually on rated ~20 years.

It adheres well and sets up to a very hard but not rigid state. Paint sticks and protects it from long term UV damage in the small areas it is exposed between the jamb and the masonry.
It is about the same as polyurethane construction mastic but colored.

I cannot recall seeing a pan in old masonry work, but there might be some out there.
If the lower edge of the masonry opening is properly sloped there is no real reason for a pan.
They are recommended in masonry veneer.