I think that you did everything perfectly, and that tends to make contractors nervous. Also, (and in fear of another run-in with mightyanvil), I'll state again that my experience is contractors will not execute an AIA form contract. Certainly not smaller home builders anyway. I think that your thoroughness probably did make people nervous and also I found that contractors simply aren't interested in competitive bidding anymore. They either want to be paid for their time to prepare the bid(s) OR they want to establish through their qualifications, past experience and referrals, whether they are the best fit, and then prepare a bid for you.

I'm sorry you ran into such a mess. You might consider finding the right contractor and going into a time and materials contract with them, since you as a DIY'er will have more control over the costs and outcome in that way. The contractor should still establish a fairly tight cost proposal from which to work and so you can make informed decisions about what work you can do yourselves and the cost benefit of those choices.

Good luck!

I am not surprised. I think these are the things that put them off: your being so organized and in control, doing only a part of the job rather than being able to get the big bucks, the disinterest in doing the bidding because it takes a lot of time (we had one place offer to give us a bid if we paid $3-4,000). The lowest bidder thing might drive some away too because if you're getting bids from apples and oranges (contractors with very different reputations for example) then some will naturally come in lower and why should the higher quality ones even bother? I'm sure some also didn't want to be told what format to bid in and what information you wanted. They are used to doing things their way. Oh, and some will be turned off by not being able to get their profit on the windows....

This isn't a complete answer but I think that you need to avoid all contractors who mostly or exclusively build houses. You need someone who specializes in attaching new to old. You may get bids, you may even hire someone, but odds are that you will not be happy with the result.

I agree with the above.

"Intent to award to lowest bidder" turned me right off. Why even bother bidding if I do quality work? That might be taken by someone with no workload, but otherwise there's always a better job for the best contractors.

Also, you may have sounded like you were going to be a bit too "hands on" during the project (which adds time and annoyance).

Curious, what are the dimensions and major elements of this project?

My gut feeling was the same as Caligirl's and you 'scared them' by being so organised which puts them on the back foot, because they like to be the 'experts' and be in control, also, because you want to do the finishing they miss out on the gravy because they get the markup on the interior contractors etc....

In fairness (and this is not a negative reflection on you in any way) contractors might get nervous at someone so organised and sure of themselves because they may fear you are a 'control freak' - whilst I think one should get good value, be vigilant and involved, I'm sure you can imagine some people can be trying to deal with when they question each and every thing that you (the builder) does and gets caught up in details etc, we've all seen the reality shows, builders/homeowners from hell ....most builders prefer that 'arms length' with a client and many of them are resistant to change (which is why uptake of new, better building techniques is often slow) so it's very much a reflection on the insecurities of contractors - they probably think it's going to be too much trouble.

It's commendable you've done your homework, Probably most of the time you could be less hands-on and just leave it to the builders and be ok, but there are those times when it turns into a nightmare.

Maybe you could compromise somewhat and be an owner-builder and do more of the planning and deal with individual contractors - engage a concreter and plumber to do the initial work, then framing contractors (or a framing prefab operation and then get piecemeal carpenters to do the assembly) and so on.

Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like I should have
(1) ignored some of Ms. Amy's advice with the "lowest bidder" statement. And perhaps with the whole organization of the bid? But how does one structure a contract with all the details if you don't solicit those and discuss in advance?
(2) not invited new construction contractors to bid (perhaps they were never serious, just sniffing around for a small project that might keep their crews busy, without being truly serious about it)
(3) not purchased the windows. We didn't do this on purpose; we were about ready to go last fall and bought about half of them on sale, and then the deal fell through so they've been sitting in the garage ever since. But if you're trying to make the contractor happy by letting him buy and mark up the materials, how do you keep your costs under control?

I'm struggling a bit with the "being an organized and knowledgeable customer" as a downer. Don't contractors want someone who will be available when needed for questions, is organized and clear about what they want done, etc.? We're not build-zillas by any means, ready to nit-pick every job to pieces and insist on being redone. Does the fact that we're DIY-ers make them more reluctant? Our work wasn't going to start until theirs finished.

I hope I'm not coming across as defensive. I'm truly wanting to know what we did to make everyone either run away or overprice. This contracting process is new to me, so I'm trying to learn so we can do it right.

The basics of this project are a 15x20 sunroom and a 10x10 breakfast nook with sitting room on the 2nd floor. Here's the layout and elevation (all brick).

pjb: I think I was typing my response while you were typing yours. Thanks for the candor. At this point we're toying with GCing it ourselves (as someone at work pointed out, we're only talking 3 trades, it's not a super complex job to coordinate). We just have to start the sub-finding process. Perhaps we'll find some amenable to doing a small side job on a weekend or something. Our parade of homes starts this weekend, so we'll probably cull names from all the signs the subs put out front.
Any tips for finding/contracting with/using good subs? Knowing what you know about us, our style, approach and needs, any potential pitfalls you see? (Perhaps I need a new thread)

Tell me more about prefab framing (how to find, how it works). We might be able to handle the framing ourselves, if we call in FIL and his neighbor, a couple retired guys and all-around handy people that have done a lot of remodeling work.

I think a perfect example of the "too hands on" issue for contractors is exemplified by a celebrity contractor that's considered to be great - Mike Holmes from Holmes on Homes. Notice that he shows the homeowners what was wrong, and then kicks them out till it's done. He chooses everything.

GCs of all qualities don't like someone looking over their shoulder. I don't think you sound like that myself, just someone who knows what they want and knows not to implicitly trust contractors.

I think GCing yourself is a good idea. As you said, you really just need a foundation, framing, roofer, siding, electrician, and sheetrocker. From your post, you can handle permits, insualtion, gutters and finishing materials.

Builders at your home show might give you some names for those trades.

Brickwork? I wouldn't have been all that surprised by a 55k bid. Certainly wouldn't have expected half that bid.

Maybe what's going on here is that being DIYer's has affected your expectations on contractor rates in general, and they sense it.

As a handyman, it reminds me of some folks who preface, in a certain identifiable way, with "it's just a couple small things" or "I would do it myself, but just don't have the time, etc." Better still when they tell you how much time that wish list should take: "it's about a day's work" (when it's double that including the running around, at least).

Most people don't enjoy having someone look over their shoulder while they work and GC's are no exception. Perhaps your apparent organization makes you look like a bit of a control freak. That's not to say you are, but perception is the reality.

"Low bid" might work for government projects but for homeowners the concept of value is a better approach. A number of years ago I had a customer who wanted a detailed breakout of costs -- materials plus labor. We were pretty detailed in our bids but they were typically something like X sq ft of drywall at $Y per square foot or X receptacles at $Y each. I wasn't about to enter into a conversation about what I or any sub charged in labor. He wasn't qualified to evaluate it nor did I think he should dictate what a man chooses to charge for an hour of his time.

In the end, I told him that he really should be looking at the big picture -- based on the scope of the project, was the price acceptable to him? I never heard back from him and I'm kind of glad I didn't.

It's the "BS" factor. How much bovine defecation will I have to put up with and how much am going to charge for that. It's kind of like the "stupid" charge -- that's the upcharge for fixing the well meaning DIYer's mistakes.

In the end I'm the professional and darned good at what I do. I'm also not perfect and if I make a mistake I'll fix it without complaining (and likely before you'd even notice) and eat the cost. I guarantee I will never be the lowest bidder because I know the quality of the work I do takes more time and that's why I'm selling -- my time. When I walk out the door we're both going to be satisfied -- you with the work and me with my paycheck.

I doubt any of this answered your questions but it might give you a little insight to what the other guy is thinking.

Good luck with your project!

re (3) I don't think that your having purchased the windows is a death knell but just that until you have a relationship with a contractor, let's face it they are looking at you as income and that includes all the mark-ups. I certainly agree that purchasing materials without paying all those mark ups is part of trying to keep a lid on the costs. My own view is that it depends on the contractor how much they are willing to help you help yourself. The more you have bonded with them the more they may be inclined to give on this stuff. But your pre-purchased windows are a reality that they can just work around.

Otherwise I agree with your conclusion nos. 1 and 2. I'm not sure how to answer your question: "But how does one structure a contract with all the details if you don't solicit those and discuss in advance?" Once answer would be that all of the bids will include details (well, one hopes!) but they simply might be organized differently between the different contractors. So, in theory, each one of them would lend itself to being turned into a contract.

If part of the goal is to be able to compare the bids, so that you can see, for example, what the labor and/or material costs for a particular aspect from one contractor to another then I can see why you want all of them to use your format. But I think you should abandon this idea. One is just that I think you run the risk of running off some good contractors. Second, you will be able to see enough to judge what you're paying for, even if it isn't a one-to-one correspondence. Third, your choice of contractors won't be based on solely the total cost, the comparison of trades and subcontracts, personality, or experience with doing additions. It will be some combination of all of that.

That is all if you proceed with finding a GC. My own view, facing this very prospect with a 2-story addition, is that I am not strong enough to GC a project that involves tying in new and old foundations, new and old roofs, complicated structural framing issues...so we're spending the money on all of that and then saving money by DIY the interior.

Did you do the design/drawings yourself? (If so, was there a structural engineer involved?) If not, it would seem that the architect would have some good suggestions for contractors. Another approach would be to get suggestions from architects that you haven't employed...not sure how to do that but there must be some devious way!

fern4 said, :" My own view, facing this very prospect with a 2-story addition, is that I am not strong enough to GC a project that involves tying in new and old foundations, new and old roofs, complicated structural framing issues...so we're spending the money on all of that and then saving money by DIY the interior"

From the moment I started reading the thread my concern was the tying-in of roof and foundation. I would be looking for a GC that is qualified to handle those issues and not concentrating so much on what appears as a complicated contract to many of the contractors.
We've done several remodels, with and without a GC, and I can understand them not wanting to spend time on all the paperwork for what they'd consider a small job.

I thought the $55 was a good price. I'm sure you're aware of it, but keep in mind that since you started a year ago, the cost of most materials has gone up the past year.

homebound: the masonry was $16k of it, but the reduction for vinyl siding instead of brick from the bottom of the windows up (we asked for 2 prices) was only $5k less. I've been guilty of underestimating the time things were going to take on our own DIY projects, and I'm certainly sympathetic to that. :-)

We did hire a pro to draw the plans, and he said he calls on a structural engineer as needed, though he's been doing it a gazillion years and knew how to calculate that kind of stuff. We got his name from one of the contractors though, so I probably can't hit him up for other names. :-(

Fair point about the materials cost potentially being higher than a year ago. I could take the plans to the local lumberyard and get a quote for the building package.

In hindsight, I'm thinking we should have done way more up front/screening work with different contractors, gotten to know them and their style, worked to see if we were comfortable with each other and would be able to have a workable relationship of trust (they'd be ok with our window purchase and wouldn't see us as micromanagers, we'd feel confident in their work and communication style). We'd talk with all their references to get more perspective on them and their work. Then we'd pick one and ask for a bid, work through the details, sign a contract that both parties were ok with, etc. All less formally/less organized, but making sure both our needs were met.

Of course, that's what we did a year ago. We were working really well with a guy, and then as we were finalizing the last details he quit returning phone calls.

One irony in all this is that it's likely all 4 thought of themselves as the "quality option" not the low bidder. One of them might indeed have bid something we felt we could live with.

Thanks for your continued comments. They're good food for thought all around.

Well, after what you went through with the first guy I can see why you took a different path. Being in the finalizing mode myself your story is really scary.

Anybody who can do such a bang up job on DIY tiling and then post so much useful information deserves all the support we can muster!

I never reacted to the price tag but off the total top of my head it doesn't seem wrong to me. Did you get things broken down -- foundation, framing, roofing etc? If so, I could compare to my relatively small 2-story addition. Mine includes a ton of plumbing and electrical but those are all broken out....

Contractors who are willing to work with a DIYer and only to a certain point in the finish scale are very very very few and that's the biggest point that you're getting the disappearing act on I'd suspect. Frankly, DIYers are usually hassles to deal with even for a complete project. They're sure they could do it better and cheaper---but they aren't willing to tackle it--just look over your shoulder and back seat drive. No one likes to deal with that type of client. Then, you've got the second point of only wanting half a job done. That's another hassle for a GC, who usually approaches a job with a crew of subs he's developed a good working relationship with, and some of which he won't be able to use on your job. I'm a KD, and while I enjoy working with informed clients, I really am uncomfortable working with DIYers, because their work really and truly is NOT up to the standards that I'm used to dealing with on installs. It takes them more than twice as long, and things I would never even have to explain to my pro installers have to be physically drawn out and gone over multiple times. It's kinda exhausting, and I don't get paid any extra for the advice they need. And I rarely even get a thank you from any of them for helping out. I imagine GCs envision themselves doing the work you've spec'd out, only to be called once you've started your portion and be asked "how to" questions about portions that you agreed to handle. Or, even worse, being asked to take over the jobs you've agreed to do after you've had a go at them and botched them. No one wants to deal with that, thus the lack of interest in getting you bids.

It's like going to a baker for a wedding cake and telling them you are an amateur baker who doesn't have time to mix the batter and you just want the cake but you'll do the decorations yourself over time as you have the money and energy. By the time that cake is done for that wedding, it's not really gonna taste that good, and it's the baker's name that everyone will remember, not yours.

fern: The breakdown on the bid is as follows:
general conditions 3,448
site work 2,570
demolition 4,694
concrete 5,533
masonry 16,132
carpentry 16,940
roofing 4,867
doors & windows 1,672 (labor only)

live_wire_oak makes some excellent points on the GC point of view. And as an avid DIYer with a wife who wants to help but doesn't have the knowledge and experience that I have, I understand his comments completely.

Maybe a better way to approach would be to let the GC know that you have your own subs for rest of the work and will hire them independently to finish the job.

Tell them you've got a friend who does finish carpentry, you hired a painter for some other rooms last year, and you'll be using a big box store for the carpet.

I'll give you an estimate on the back of a napkin for free. That estimate will be based upon my knowledge of past work that is equivalent in scope to your project.

If you wanted a formal bid, broken down per your needs, then I'd charge you for the time involved in crafting that bid, and that fee would be applied to the contract price if I got the contract.

I'd never waste my free time preparing a contract for someone who tells me up front that they'll automatically award the contract to the lowest bidder.

You want me to build your house, here's what I like. I LOVE an informed customer. You know what you want? That makes my job easier. I don't mind involved customers either. I've had some folks work along side me, I've had to babysit others, I've had to have heart-to-heart with others and tell them to get lost because their assistance will actually give them an inferior and more costly product.

Do be wary of the "low bid award" only because you could get a low bid that seams attractive, only to have change orders and scope of work additions piled on to the original low-ball price.

You're "only looking for a 400 sqft shell", but that shell has nine different changes of plane in the exterior walls (and in the foundation, as well as the foundation/footings being stepped), six changes of plane in the roof, and the roof ties into an existing exterior wall, a chimney, and an existing roof. And a brick exterior.

Expecting to get that for $13,750-$27,500 does seem a bit skewed, especially when the brickwork bid alone came in at $16k.

Keep plugging away. I like your approach, and you;re learning as you go. It's always an educational process for contractors and homeowners when it comes to shell packages.

Have you looked for "shell package contractors" in your area? With the DIY boom, they're getting more common.

Mongo

Mongo, I think you may have underestimated the price the OP was hoping for. If $55K is 50% - 75% higher than expected then the expected price was $31,428 - $36,666.

Otherwise I think you're on target.

I have to say that the only reason I put the "low bidder" phrase in there was because the book I referenced above advised to do so. At the time I was thinking "but I might not want to choose the absolute lowest" (plus I know the warnings about picking a lowballer who will merely find ways to make up the difference), but assumed that the author knew what she was talking about (perhaps that motivates GCs to sharpen their pencils a bit). I now seriously regret having included that phrase.

As a clarification, Mongo, jon is right: we were hoping for $30k or so. And it was the 55K bid that said the brickwork would be 16K; we didn't expect it to be half the bid.

I haven't looked for "shell package contractors." How would one go about finding these types?

As an update, the guy we got an estimate from last fall called back, and based on all your feedback above, I took a little less formal approach. I explained that we had gone through some sticker shock when he gave us the initial estimate last year, worrying about spending more on the project than the value it would add to our house, so we regrouped, tried to figure out how much to do ourselves, etc. We talked to some people who said we'd have much better luck if we drew out detailed plans, so we did so, and we wanted to know if he'd be interested in dusting off his estimate and giving us a formal bid based on the details. He agreed that our approach was a good one, and he liked to work that way, etc. I also threw in some comments about the shell being beyond our abilities, and really wanting someone who could just come in and get in done for us (trying to communicate that we weren't going to micromanage).

I also talked to someone at work whose uncle does concrete work and who could likely connect us with some other good subs. And we found out at a parade home we visited last weekend that the Amish around here do framing, so there's a lead there. Our neighbor does roofs, and we just paid him $10K to re-roof our entire gigantic roof, including demo, so I imagine he'd do the addition for something significantly south of $5k. So we're pursuing leads that way.

We'll see if either of these forks in the road get us closer to what we want.

BTW, mongo, what was your back-of-the-napkin estimate on this?

good lord, where did my math skills go? Good catch jon.

What a lovely and informative post --
and as an avid DIYer and wife of a professional remodeller, I agree with all of it.

GardenWeb at its best!

mongo -- what is a shell package contractor?

weedy,

In my locale the low end of the price for this addition would be $105-$110k with clapboard siding and about $130k with brick.

sarschlos, a "shell contractor" builds shells. Essentially the envelope of the house. You get excavation, foundation, framing, roofing, windows/doors, siding, and exterior trim.

When you shell contractor fulfills his end of the job, from the outside you have what pretty much looks like a house. From the inside you have just exposed framing. No flooring, no drywall, no electrical/plumbing/HVAC, no interior trim, no interior doors, etc, etc.

Mongo

I can understand the POV of contractors not wanting customers breathing down their necks and when I was in business for the most part (the film/tv business) I much preferred most clients to leave me a script and leave me to it, however, with others if I did that, they'd want to change everything so I preferred to have them there so I had some recourse if they changed their minds.

That being said, no criticism at all of weedyacres, consider just how many bad/dodgy contractors there are out there. Getting back to my own business, I found exhaustive pricing/budget preparation for a crappy little job a real pest, and people are somewhat protective of their markups. I'm not saying markups are necessarily excessive but if you get a breakdown and then go price things yourself, you will indeed find that materials etc are marked up. Without markup as a business person, you're not really going to make any money and you will have no safety net if something crops up that you can't cover otherwise, eg if you or one of your subs makes a mistake.

So I often preferred costing a job from the gut, or making one fit to a customer's budget, they'd say I have x dollars to do y project, can you do it, and I'd work out how to do it for that cost....like the adage "fast good cheap pick any two"

So it's not really a criticism of the OP's being organised - it scares some, some would be concerned with looking over the shoulder, others would think there was no meat in it because it's a bare bones job and would mark up the bits they ARE doing more, or might price themselves out of the job because they don't want to do it.

Other contractors aren't very good at what they do and fly by the seat of their pants, and don't want their work scrutinised...hence the Holmes show in the first place, all he does is fix bad jobs....

On the other hand, if you hire a professional (and you should only hire one you trust) with a reasonable contract and terms to protect you and them, then you ought to trust them enough to leave them to it.