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tkripala

Design error and what to do?

tkripala
10 years ago

In our house Addition+Remodel we have a new kitchen addition (a U-shaped plan see attached with shaded areas marking new walls) with a new roof and in the design the architect had drawn in a 10 foot wide x 4 feet high window opening. The ceiling in our kitchen is 8-feet until about 3-feet in then it rises to 9 feet.

Earlier in the week I was at the house and the builder had just completed the framing of the exterior kitchen wall and framed in the window rough-opening. While I was looking at the opening, I felt that something was wrong. It didn't seem that the opening was high enough to accommodate the window, the kitchen counters, backsplash and the garbage disposal switch. So, I took some measurements and started measuring from the ceiling down. I have a 4x10 header and the bottom of the header measures 7' to the subfloor. The rough opening for the window height is around 4' 0 1/2" and the distance from the bottom of the rough opening to the subfloor is ~ 35". My kitchen counters (cabinet plus counter top) is at 36" basically leaving no room for any kind of backsplash, window trim (at the bottom) or any of the switches or outlets (I could move these to the side of the window but it is at least 5' from the center of the sink to the wall).

I discussed this with the builder to see if there was anything we could do to move the window rough opening up and recover around 3-4 inches. He said yes but that we would need the structural engineer to replace the 4x10 header with a 4x6 header and whatever other changes would have to be made to compensate the load distribution. The other option is to replce the window with a smaller (in height) window.

As you can infer, the windows were already ordered and sitting at the window company waiting to be delivered and installed.

Of course, the window company will not take returns and they have offered to order me a replacement window at cost. The original window cost me $2000 and the next smaller window is about 8" shorter and costs $1700.

So, first question, is this a design error? I would say yes but how to prove it conclusively? If it is, then should I get my architect to cover the cost of the replacement? How should I make my case without incurring any repercussions from the architect? (What if I need her services during construction and she becomes unavailable or creating more difficulty?) What do I do with the original window?

Thanks!

Comments (15)

  • millworkman
    10 years ago

    What type of window are you buying for 2 grand??????

  • dekeoboe
    10 years ago

    So the window will look like this?

    Some would say it is a design feature not a design error. Of course you and the architect should have discussed it ahead of time.

  • tkripala
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    The window specified is an Andersen 400 Series Casement with 3 panels. The left and right open outwards.

    @dekeoboe, during design, we did talk together with the architect about the window being about 4-6 inches above the counter. The flat counter to window sill looks good. What is the window size, if I might ask? Where is the garbage disposal switch located?

    Thanks!

  • dekeoboe
    10 years ago

    Oh, if you already discussed it, then yes, he made a mistake and you should take it up with him. (Unless the builder read the plans incorrectly.)

    I can't tell you anything about the picture because it was just something I found on the web. The garbage disposal switch is an air switch; it is located at the back right corner of the sink. But if air switches aren't allowed where you are, you could just have the switch in the sink cabinet.

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    On the drawing there is a wall/building section key at the windows in question. That section drawing should show the design intent. If it is wrong then the architect is at fault but the contractor should have double-checked the sizes of all of the windows before ordering them. The contractor should also have given the window order to the architect for review. If you ordered your own windows you would have been responsible for such coordination.

    I always avoid batch feeder disposers with wall switches and use safer, more convenient magnetic stopper switches.

    A bigger problem is the location of the required electrical receptacles.

    What does "10040 CS on the drawing mean?

    The drawing shows 5 panels but you say there are 3 panels. If support studs could be installed between the panels, the header span could be reduced so that a much smaller healer could work, however that might require widening the opening 6" or so.

    Another solution might be to move the beam up into to the floor/ceiling framing. The engineer should have already suggest it.

    Why is the architect not offering solutions? It is premature to be thinking of who is at fault; the first task should always be to resolve the problem and everyone involved should participate. In the end, the cost of such problems is often shared. Delaying the project unnecessarily is usually more costly than modifying the framing.

  • tkripala
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    @Renovator8, thanks for your note.

    When I checked the plans on the section which cuts through the window as marked on the drawing, it shows the bottom of the window sill sitting at about 32-34 inches from the sub-floor. (at 1/4 scale, it is really hard for me to say exactly as the dimension was not marked on the plans)

    The 10040 CS stands for a 10' 0" Wide by 4' 0" high window opening and the CS means Casement. I ordered the windows myself and sent the list of windows to the architect before I placed the order. The window is made up of 3 sections but it is a single pre-built unit (as explained to me by the window guy) without any room to install studs in between the panels.

    So far, the only suggestion from the architect is to replace the header (currently a 4x10) to a smaller one but whether it is a 4x8, a 4x6 or something else is unknown but she would need to engage the engineer to find out. She has reached out to the engineer but no response yet.

    (We are actually a little disappointed with our architect. Communication and follow up hasn't been very good nor timely)

  • GreenDesigns
    10 years ago

    It's a compound mistake. The architect should have realized that the windows went in front of a counter and that the lowest that the stool could be would be the 36" of the finished height of the cabinets and floor if the window was intended to be an extension of the counter itself.

    However, whomever orders the windows has to understand the ramifications of the sizes ordered and double check for size before ordering. You should have had both the builder and the architect sign off on the window order.

    At this point, the solution might be to see if the mulling between the windows could be removed, and as Ren8 suggest, move to smaller headers above with separate support posts in between, install the windows individually, and then trim out so that it appears to be a designed whole. It's what I would have done from the beginning rather than incur that ungodly cost for a factory mulled window of 10'.

    You will end up with a wider wall of windows, as Ren8 says, but the look is more traditional. If your home is contemporary, then getting the engineer to design another support header would probably be the best approach at this point.

  • tkripala
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    @GreenDesigns, thanks for the tips. I am discussing with my architect what my options are. According to the architect, any structural changes will have to require a field revision to be submitted to the city likely adding about 1-2 weeks delay.

    Thanks!

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    Unfortunately the last person to touch the window order was the last person who could have avoided this error and unfortunately it appears to be you. I made a mistake on a window order recently and it cost me $6,000 but the owner was protected. Paying for your errors is something you must accept if you take responsibility for material ordering. It may be time to ask how long it will take to get the new windows and move on to the next issue.

    The engineer might tell you that only a steel beam can span such an opening with a depth of 6" or that it is impossible. It depends on the load above and you haven't told us anything about the structure above. You need to be more proactive about this error.

    If you give us the section showing what structure is above the window (second floor or roof rafters) we can probably tell you how to raise the original beam with the permission of the engineer.

    By the way, the mulled windows are probably just screwed together with a thin cap on the outside so they can be separated and studs can be installed between them. A nailing fin might have to installed where they were separated. If they are Anderson windows that's more complicated but probably not impossible. Don't take simple answers as fact. Send us drawings of such conditions.

    It troubles me that your architect isn't taking the lead in solving this problem.

    A simple structural revision should not take weeks to approve.

  • _sophiewheeler
    10 years ago

    I think the engineering work for the structural revision won't take that long. I read it as getting approval from the powers that be in the municipal office for any change is what will take forever. Does the architect employ an expediter? In many communities with a lot of red tape, it's a necessary job title. All they do is deal with the red tape.

    I personally like the "field mulled" window look better for the most part. It's also MUCH easier to accomplish structurally. I guess the issue still remains getting permit approval for the change though.

  • scrappy25
    10 years ago

    What about turning mistake that into gold and having that huge window come down to the counter like in the posted picture above, extending the counter material into the windowsill? There are many on the kitchen forum who have done that deliberately with stunning results.

  • tkripala
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    So, I finally met with my architect and contractor on site and we have agreed on a solution which does not involve replacing the window. Instead, we will be removing the plating above the header, move the header up, replace the 4x4 studs holding up the header and adding strapping of the newly raised header to the plating (at the point where it was cut) to secure the header to it. The top of the header will be level with the plating of the wall itself. The architect spoke with the engineer while we were there to confirm the structural change and also confirmed that no revision would need to be submitted to the city.

    This gives me about a 2 inch clearance from the counter surface to the window sill.

    I'm not sure what this change will cost but I'm hoping that it won't be too much and much less than what a new window will cost.

    Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    Well, that was the obvious solution and your architect should have issued a sketch to all concerned within minutes and saved you a lot of distress. I can't help but be embarrassed when an architect does that. Please tell me she not really registered.

    However, the building code requires that top plates be double and continuous so you must get a stamped sketch from the engineer and submit it to the building official. You are responsible for compliance not the contractor or architect; they are just your agents.

    But you still have not addressed the issue of electrical receptacles. You will probably need to raise the beam more. Without a detail I can't say if that is possible.

    From the edge of the sink bowl, a receptacle must be located within a distance of 2ft each side. A large window over a sink requires a great deal of professional design attention and you appear to not be getting any. I hate to see homeowners treated this way. I wish you luck.

    This post was edited by Renovator8 on Thu, Jul 4, 13 at 16:51

  • tkripala
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    @Renovator8, you are correct, after talking to my contractor, we do indeed have to submit a revision to the city building dept for approval. I should have the revisions within a day or two and it will include electrical outlets as required in code. According to the architect, she has outlets that will fit the space between counter and window.

    We will hold off on construction on that part of the house until review is completed.
    .

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    The rough sill under the window will be very unstable because of the large window width and installing receptacles will weaken it more. perhaps steel stantions or lower cabinets can be designed to resist the lateral force of the wind. Ask for a detail before they start cutting up the wall. An alternative is an outlet strip if well detailed.

    This post was edited by Renovator8 on Sat, Jul 6, 13 at 8:39