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czarinalex

Architect Fees

czarinalex
11 years ago

Do architect fees as a percentage of renovation cost make sense when renovations will be phased over 6 years?

Background: Bought a lake house with plans to retire there in about 5-6 years. When we are done with renovations, we'll have gutted interior, raised/changed roof line,moved interior walls, added a bathroom, reconfigured stairway, added porch, etc. House is 2000 sq ft. No change to the footprint of the home. We are very handy and plan to source materials and do some work ourselves. We also have experience in planning large renovations like this.

Have been speaking to an architect about design work. Gives us a proposal detailing his involvement in ALL phases of work. Asked for a flat fee instead of percentage because it makes more sense to us given the phased approach. His flat fee? $30,000. Am I so out of touch that I think this is over the top?

Comments (20)

  • homebound
    11 years ago

    What was the percentage if you went that route? While everyone needs to make a living, I'd be questioning the extent to which I needed an architect for a house that size.

    A second opinion is in order.

  • renovator8
    11 years ago

    You didn't mention whether or not the design work would be phased or how the construction cost would be determined now especially if you will be doing some of it.

    No one could know if the proposed fee is appropriate without seeing the scope of design work described in the proposal.

  • czarinalex
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    I tried to give a sense of the design work involved... We are not changing the footprint of the house but plan to make major changes to the interior & exterior. Roofline and exterior wall changes, interior wall changes, stairway changes. We are thinking 125K for a 1st phase to cover at the minimum:
    - new roof framing and metal roofing
    - about 10 new windows and 2 patio doors
    - insulation(in the northeast)
    - some electrical work
    - rough in plumbing for new bathroom
    - sheetrock
    - new stairway

    All of this work to be done by professionals. If we can get more professional work done in that budget, great. Otherwise we will be doing finishing work(laying wood flooring, trim work, finishing the bathroom, painting, etc.)

    Our architect is looking at the final product(new kitchen, new masterbath, new deck, new front porch, new landscaping) and estimating a full project cost of $250,000 which is how he came up with his flat fee. When all is finished, we will probably end up spending $200K.

    My question.... we do want a full design which we can implement over years. We do not expect him to be involved in construction consulting over that time period. What can you expect to pay for a full architectural design/plans for a 2000 sq ft house?

  • millworkman
    11 years ago

    From what i recall the architect fees generally run anywhere from 15 to 25% of the cost of the finished project. So if your looking to spend 200k 30k is about correct. Of course there is no hard and fast rule so.......

  • GreenDesigns
    11 years ago

    Doesn't sound completely out of the ballpark to me. You're talking about a very expensive project. One that would be much cheaper if you actually did a teardown. Redesign under those constraints is much more difficult than planning a new house without the constraints of the existing walls and foundation and location of the electric service, plumbing, etc.

    If you want to save money on the project, plan a teardown instead. Then you'd at least end up with an all new house--with the ceiling height and all the modern amenities of a new house--- that would also appraise as an all new house rather than appraise as a 50 year old Frankenstein.

  • Fori
    11 years ago

    I don't know how one can say a teardown would be cheaper without knowing more details. It sure wouldn't be cheaper in my location with a house of about the same size.

    (And is 2000 sq.ft. really "too small" to be worthy of an architect? Even when moving stairs and stuff? When is a house of appropriate size to hire an architect?)

  • czarinalex
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Teardown is not an option. This is a lakefront home and we are grandfathered in as far as setbacks, taxes and such. There are actually some nice qualities to the house which we will be preserving. :-)
    We'll be talking to other architects and get more quotes.
    Thanks for everyone's feedback!

  • EngineerChic
    11 years ago

    Do you need an architect? You might want to consider a draftsman or someone who draws these sorts of plans for a living.

    I'm suggesting this because we are almost done adding a new second floor to our house and we did not use an architect. I did a lot of the early work (using Visio) to figure out what is possible, and then the building inspector in our town referred me to a handful of people who draw such plans. I picked the guy who is runs the building department in the next town :)

    For under $700 we went through a few versions of the plan - moving interior walls, changing rooflines, changing the porch proportions ... There was a roof plan, an insulation plan, locations of all the piers for the porch, and more included in the plans. It was more than just pretty pictures, it really had all the required elements of a building plan and was WAY more involved than I would have been able to do. But - he's not an architect.

    In the end we have 3 bedrooms & 2 bathrooms on the second floor of a house that has a 24x36 foundation. It's a good use of space, it flows with the rest of the house wonderfully, and as soon as a few final plumbing fixtures are installed I get to move in :) We really maximized the space, that's a lot of function in a fairly small footprint.

    Bottom line - before I spent $30k on an architect I'd spend several weekends and evenings measuring, sketching, etc and hire someone to do the renditions. If you are design minded, you probably can do this. You likely understand how you live more than anyone else, so you can make the tradeoffs on questions like, "wider hallway or deeper linen closet? Shower for 1 or for 2? Walk-in closet or wall of reach-in closets?"

    Then again, if you want a showplace of a house with a lot of drama (nothing wrong with that) you might want to consider the architect after all.

  • czarinalex
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    I am actually design minded. :)
    We had actually looked at this house 3 times over the course of a year trying to figure out what we could do with it. When the price finally dropped to where we felt it should be, I got serious about working up a plan.
    We know how we want to use the space. My plan is pretty good, but the roof lines have us stumped.
    One half of the house has a gambrel roof on the second story(which we don't like) and the other half has a low pitched gable roof. There is also a flat roof on an enclosed porch, a single silly looking dormer on the gambrel and an awkward gable connecting the whole mess!
    We will be talking this weekend to a contractor who we've worked with before. He did a simple second story addition on a previous house.. we didn't use an architect on that job.. just a draftsman like you did. We'll see what he thinks of this job.
    Thanks for your input!

  • weedyacres
    11 years ago

    We used a draftsperson twice, on 2 different projects we did, and I second EngineerChic's motion.

    First was reconfiguration of two upstairs bedrooms into 2 bedrooms, 2 walk-in closets, a bath, laundry room, and loft/office area. I gave them a basic sketch of what I wanted and they took measurements and figured out the details so that clearances were right in the bathroom and hallway, etc. It cost about $300 for the floor plan.

    Second was a 500 sf addition. Different draftsperson this time, but he took our sketch and again figured out the details of tie-ins, roof lines, etc. and produced a detailed set of construction drawings (way more than project #1) that we used to bid it out. We went through 3 versions, and it cost about $1500.

    We hired a contractor to build the addition shell, and the drawings worked perfectly for that. We did all the interior finishing as well as all the work on the upstairs remodeling. It sounds like you're in the same camp. If you pretty much know what you want and need someone to provide the details and make sure it'll all work properly, then a draftsperson can do the trick.

  • Jumpilotmdm
    11 years ago

    In my experience an Architect will think nothing of submitting a bill but takes very little responsibility when something isn't right or needs to be re-done. Be careful.

  • arch123
    11 years ago

    We paid about $4,000 for a additional structure for our house. That included a concept (much better then what I was thinking) and drawings to work with our contractor. I think it was well worth it and will add value to my home (resale etc).
    Construction was $62,000 but I think having the architect involved made a significant difference and the contractor agreed. The price broke down to $1,000 for a concept and $3,000 for the design.

  • rwc123
    11 years ago

    Archie, your experience is Interesting to me. Do you live in California? Looking for architect and the fees you mentioned are in my price range.

  • renovator8
    11 years ago

    The need for an architect is so dependent on the complexity of the project, the regulatory restrictions, and the expectation/experience/knowledge of the owners, that it is impossible to make useful generalizations about when the use of an architect is appropriate. Every building is different as is every owner.

  • renovator8
    11 years ago

    "In my experience an Architect will think nothing of submitting a bill but takes very little responsibility when something isn't right or needs to be re-done."

    This statement is unfair for two reasons: 1) An architect has the right to expect be paid for his/her work as agreed in the owner-architect agreement, and 2) an owner-architect agreement should give the owner the right to hold the architect responsible for errors and omissions in his/her design documents.

  • czarinalex
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    OP here...

    We did find another architect which we had a good meeting with(although I still like the expensive one better). This second architect's fees are right in line with what we expected to pay.
    To make things a little more complicated though... we met with our preferred contractor and he doesn't feel we need a contractor, just a draftsman. He estimates about $2K for time to draw it up and design revisions.
    My husband thinks we can do the design ourselves. I'm not convinced though and am holding out for the architect.
    I think we can design the interior to our needs but the exterior needs alot of style work.
    The discussions continue...

  • renovator8
    11 years ago

    It is interesting you suggested eliminating the contractor when you meant to say architect. Good design is far more than "style". The use of an architect is always about raising the level of design not only in appearance but in function and life style accommodation.

    In my experience a common reason a builder doesn't want an architect involved is that he might be forced to build in a different manner and/or he doesn't want someone overseeing his performance and enforcing the terms of the contract. Small residential builders like to control the entire process from beginning to end. More sophisticated builders prefer architect prepared drawings and welcome professional oversight.

  • chibimimi
    11 years ago

    "I don't know how one can say a teardown would be cheaper without knowing more details."

    Ditto this. We did a MAJOR remodeling/addition on our home. At one point I suggested that it would be cheaper to tear it down (it was not a historically significant house) and start fresh, and both the architect and the contractor were adamant that it would not be.

  • EngineerChic
    11 years ago

    "In my experience a common reason a builder doesn't want an architect involved is that he might be forced to build in a different manner and/or he doesn't want someone overseeing his performance and enforcing the terms of the contract."

    Or it may be that the builder has seen plenty of times when an architect designed something that was prohibitively expensive to build. Perhaps the architect felt it would improve the feel of the house to have all the bathrooms as far apart from each other as physically possible, which requires way more copper pipe and multiple waste stacks. In a builder-designed home the bathrooms are usually clustered so they stack on top of each other or are somewhat near another room that needs water (like a laundry room).

    There are many reasons a builder can prefer not working with an architect, it really doesn't have anything to do with being "sophisticated" or not.

  • czarinalex
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    "It is interesting you suggested eliminating the contractor when you meant to say architect."

    LOL Renovator8... maybe a Freudian slip?

    I agree with you... I think an architect will bring much to our project and am pushing in that direction.

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