How did they become aware of the lack of a permit?

What you had done, can determine the requirements issued by the municipality.

"When I checked recently, the Code a Compliance/permits said not to do anything more until I had a permit myself. Is this correct?"

Yes. You're fixin' to get a red tag (stop work order) otherwise.

As a courtesy, when you cross post please include identical information, in both.

good luck with you project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:09

"The contractor is responsible to you; you are responsible to the city."

Certainly not in Florida. If a homeowner pulls a permit for a contractor here, that homeowner is contracting without a license:

Here is a link that might be useful: Uh-oh

Honestly it depends on what the city of San Antonio / Bexar County rules are. Is this a general contractor who's handling a bigger remodel project or a subcontractor who's doing only one task like drywall or electrical work?

Concur with Schicksil. This is all dependent on the local AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) I hape it is still open or at least you have pictures prior to closing it up. You should visit the Building Dept ASAP and plead ignorance. Then you beg for forgiveness and hope for a satisfactory result. Some depts or areas are really tough and others more forgiving. Much of that may depend upon your demeanor when you go in

good luck with your project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:10

It's a testament of integrity to post all the fact, not just your interpretation, to fit an agenda.

"n San Antonio, a residential building permit is granted in the name of the property owner regardless of who fills out the application. Someone who is responsible to the owner (like the owner's architect, builder, etc.) can fill out and sign the application, obviously with the owner's permission."

The following is a "cut and paste" from the City's web site;

"Permits for new home construction, additions, structural work on existing homes and new accessory dwellings over 400 sq. ft. can only be issued to the homeowner or a contractor who has registered with the City as a Residential Building Contractor."

Showing the true conditions and while the permit becomes the property of the home owner, it does not occur until monies change hands, as a function of the execution of a legal document.

good luck with your project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:11

"The only money that would need to change hands in order to get a permit is the permit fee."

And who pays that fee?

"The issue was to whom the permit belongs"

Got am exact backquote with that verbiage?

good luck with your project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:12

R8, this is some sort of a game snooby likes to play, only making sense to snooby.

"An owner pays direct project costs like the permit fee whether directly to the city or by reimbursement to the contractor."

So. monies do change hands, when there is an agency agreement.

"The OP was not sure whether a property owner or a contractor was responsible for a building permit."

That's your interpretation, and not in the post.

"The answer hinges on who owns the permit, the property owner or the contractor. In this case, it is clearly the property owner who is the owner of the permit"

There, as of the post, no permit to own.

"and therefore responsible for it, regardless of who fills out and submits the application to the city."

Regardless of any verbiage in an agency agreement?

"I don't understand why this issue is confusing to you"

The process is not in the least confusing to me.

"or why you feel the need to make disdainful personal remarks."

You, of course, can provide an, unedited backquote?

"It is disruptive to the forum and not helpful to the OP."

True, however, it took 4 post, drilling down thru your generalities and single point of view to afford the OP, should he return, an expanded perspective of how this works.

The point of the forum is to expand an OP's general knowledge of the process, but not dragging it on ad-nausium, with generalities and recommendation which can unnecessarily encumber them.

"snookums2
R8, this is some sort of a game snooby likes to play, only making sense to snooby"

It's the "KISS" principal. You know, "KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID".

And too the point.

good luck with your project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:13

"The point is that the OP/owner is responsible to the city for what her contractor does or does not do. That answers her question."

Actually, only in a generality, without the benefit of the full scope of the project.

Which, as of yet, remains a secret.

Except where there is an agency agreement transferring that responsibility.

Unless you believe the OP to be an approved private inspector.

"My other comments were intended to show why that is true since "

I'm reasonably certain you aware of the process, yet you
seam to insist upon having it drug out instead of offering
it as an comprehensive disclosure, saving time.

"you get so upset when I don't lay it out for you at the 3rd grade level."

Careful, least you be accused of,"why you feel the need to make disdainful personal remarks."

But don't worry.I stand on my own and don't need to relie on others.

Cheers!

good luck with your project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:23

"Yes, there is an "agency relationship" created between the owner and the contractor by a written or oral contract but "agency" only means the owner has granted "authority" to the contractor to act on her behalf and under her control in dealing with a third party (the building department)."

So, if the home owner "directs" the contractor to preform against code, he's off the hook"

After all,"It does not mean that the Owner has transferred her "responsibility" for controlled work on her property to the contractor. In fact, she cannot transfer her responsibility to anyone."

And it is controlled work.

Now, I'm not sure you do understand the process.

good luck with your project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:15

When I lived in San Antonio it seemed the city was very diligent in monitoring permits. Over one weekend a neighbor started trenching for a sprinkler system (before he got a permit) and by late Monday he already had a big red 'cease work' sticker on his door.

As part of my kitchen renovation contract here (Alexandria, VA)I agreed to pull the permits with the city because the contractor kept saying how complicated and expensive it would be. It turned out to be fairly easy to submit the plans and get a permit, and the city staff was friendly. However, this relationship has confused the admin staff and inspectors for the city. They have several times asked "you are the owner? - why did you pull the permits?" because apparently this only happens when its a strictly DIY project.

I also showed up at some of the inspections, and during the framing/structural inspection the guy was not very friendly when he found out the owner was there with the contractor. I was interested because the city had required an engineer's certification for the replacement of a load bearing wall with a LVL beam and I wanted to know if there were any issues.

Bruce

The bottom line is that the City/County just wants to make sure that construction is done in accordance with building codes. To get this back in line with the process, the appropriate thing to do is to stop work and contact the city/county and tell them your probelm and ask them how to proceed. Probably thay will advise you to submit a request for a permit. Then the various inspections can be made and you/your contractor can make any needed changes to the existing construction to meet standards. The worst that you should encounter would be to have to damage some of the work to allow inspection.

"I though for a moment you were beginning to understand the responsibilities of contractors and owners but apparently not."

I asked a question based upon your speculative interpretation of a, contract bound, agency agreement, which are necessarily specific and direct as to the responsibilities of the enjoined parties.

And was treated to an if and maybe, generalized, response.

Ethics, integrity and morality are my drivers.

good luck with your project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:16

"A building permit in San Antonio belongs to the property owner; that is stated plainly on the permit application."

Thats not the question.

This is;""So, if the home owner "directs" the contractor to preform against code, he's off the hook"

Based upon your statement; "Yes, there is an "agency relationship" created between the owner and the contractor by a written or oral contract but "agency" only means the owner has granted "authority" to the contractor to act on her behalf and under her control in dealing with a third party (the building department)."

Which would clearly violate the terms of any contract.

Thats not the question.
This is;"

"So, if the home owner "directs" the contractor to preform against code, he's off the hook"

A professional should not be building against code because a homeowner gets involved. It is his duty to know and implement according to building code.

If a homeowner is directing the work, he is then acting as GC and becomes responsible/liable for the work of laborers he hires.

good luck with your project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:18

If a HO directs the work and how it is done, he is acting as GC with those liabilities.

On a related note, in Punta Gorda, Florida, a homeowner can pull any and all permits he pleases on his own property; mechanicals included. However, he cannot sell or rent the home he has improved from one year after issuance of the Certificate of Occupancy or he is guilty of contracting without a license. This is an anti-flipper law.

If the same homeowner hires a licensed GC or BC, and they hire licensed subs, the homeowner is free to sell whenever.

I found this out working as a sub for a flipper who's hired a GC.

good luck with your project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:19

Perhaps I'm confused by all the back and forth here, but I interpret the OP's questions like this:

"I just discovered there is no building permit for my project. Whose fault is it?"

The related question is this (as I understand it):
"If there is a fine for not getting a permit, who has to pay it?"

Simple questions, requiring simple answers.

In the case of the OP, my layman's opinion is that the OP is ultimately responsible for getting the permit. Perhaps in the agreement with the contractor, it specifies that the contractor would do it, but it's still the owner's responsibility to make sure it's done (handy that they are supposed to be on display at the site). OTOH, the contractor should have noticed the lack of building permit before starting work.

If the contract with the builder specifies that he would get the permit, then he should be responsible for any fines. Otherwise I think it's on the OP.

annkh:

I understand your reasoning, but here is where it may falter. In some jurisdictions, if the contractor isn't licensed, there is no contract.

In any event, the owner is ultimately responsible. If a contractor presented himself as licensed and wasn't, the homeowner may have bigger problems than "who should pay the fine if there is one?"

Of course it's all speculation - we don't know what agreement the OP may or may not have had with the contractor. If I was a betting Ann, I would wager that whatever contract they may have says nothing about building permit. OP stated "he was supposed to", but we don't know if that's because that's what they agreed to, or because someone told the OP that his contractor should have gotten a permit.

good luck with your project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:20

ilmbg orig. posted on Mar.14. Has anyone noticed that there has not been even one further posting from the OP? Maybe s/he thought it was easier to take chances with the city than to "listen" to the kindergarten class.

This post was edited by canuckplayer on Sat, Mar 22, 14 at 22:33

canuckplayer:

Excellent observation, but we've had fun and learned from each other in the meantime.

good luck with your project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:22

"nor should you feel it is your place to make condescending personal remarks."

Careful, thats two, third time could be the charm.

good luck with your project

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Mar 24, 14 at 16:17

R8, now that you been allowed to steep yourself in the belief that you would no longer be taken to task for unexplained generalities, guess what.

Renovator8 (My Page) on Thu, Mar 20, 14 at 11:39
" the owner is responsible for anything that happens on their property"

Only when the owner has pulled the permit and is accomplishing the project themselves with no additional help, is this true.

The act of creating an agency agreement places the homeowner in a subordinate position, too the professional by virtue uf the exhaustive qualifications necessary in obtaining that licensee.

There are, to the best of my knowledge, two exceptions, and they are if the homeowner is an architect or an "A" contractor.

"even the acts of their agents (e.g., contractor, architect, etc.) and must pay any fines"

Fines are not usually accessed for not permitting work, but can be reflected in the nature of the permit, IE. "caught in the act general remodeling permit.".

Fines are also accessed when redundant notices are given for the same correction.

"Yes, there is an "agency relationship" created between the owner and the contractor by a written or oral contract but "agency" only means the owner has granted "authority" to the contractor to act on her behalf and under her control in dealing with a third party (the building department)."

The permit and associated documents authorize the governing jurisdiction access to the property, without prior notice, at any time during normal business hours.

While correction notices become a part of the permanent record, for that address, they seldom identify the owner,
but can and will often identify the professional/s.

"Renovator8 (My Page) on Thu, Mar 20, 14 at 21:39
"They are not interested in which party caused a code violation but in forcing the owner to direct the contractor to correct the work."

When there is a contractor of record, by the associated agency agreement, the contractor is the professional and responsible, by virtue of his license, and as well, can be sanctioned by the jurisdiction.

The homeowner is not necessarily, the end-all, be-all, and is done a deserves when being portrayed as such.

Renovator8 (My Page) on Sat, Mar 22, 14 at 23:58
" ilmbg is a woman in San Antonio,Texas whom I and others have advised for many years."

This would have been my first post, had I known, as a courtesy to others.

"When she responds should not be your concern;"

I should have known, given your proclivity for generalization and dragging the conversation, on, & on, & on, & on.

"You are no match for her."

Were I to engage, you would need and old English, an unabridged and a copy of THE ROCKS and SHOALS, just to keep up.