Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
btheis

What is your Budget ?

Bruce T
15 years ago

Hi Folks,

I confess, I just don't understand how the cost process of remodeling works. I'm an accountant by trade. When I need to purchase something for the business I call all the vendors involved and get firm quotes on each component needed to make the project work. However, whenever I call a contractor for a re-model project, the first question I get is "What is your budget" Hell, I don't know what the "budget" is until I get a cost breakdown on each component of the project. If I say $10,000 for a 225 sq. ft. Kitchen/Bath remodel, the answer is always "No, cant do it for that. I up it to $20,000 - Yea, that may work, low end materials though. $30,000? No problem - top of the line everything. Maybe this is just a vent on my part. But I would surely like to know how to relate to you contractors when it comes down to the money. What are your constants - 1/2 labor to 1/2 to materials? ect,ect.

Thanks to you all for your input.

Comments (41)

  • Jon1270
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    When I need to purchase something for the business I call all the vendors involved and get firm quotes on each component needed to make the project work.

    You're only in a position to do that because whatever business you work for has technicians of some sort who tell you exactly what components they need. You begin your inquiries with vendors with a very precise idea of what you need to buy. Calling a contractor and asking about the price of a kitchen remodel is like calling a travel agent and asking how much it costs to take a trip. Do you hope to drive to a B&B 75 miles away? Do you hope to see Taipei? Do you hope to camp under the stars or stay at the Hilton? The travel agent doesn't know unless you tell her. The contractors are asking about your budget because it's the easiest way to get a conversation going. From there you can gauge whether the relationship is worth pursuing ($10K budget=NO), and narrow the field of choices from Anything You've Ever Seen to the much shorter list of Things That Are Possible. From that list you pick Things You Like, and finally have something you can shop around to other potential vendors. Unless you first hire a technician (architect or interior designer) to spec out the project before you contact contractors (and they, too, would need a sense of your budget), this is the way it works. The orderly bidding process is a ways down the line for you. Loosen up and start with the organic, touchy-feely, trying-things-on-for-size sort of attitude.

    You are never going to get the sort of rock-solid certainty you're used to at work because you're dealing with a house, where unpredictable surprises are hidden in walls and crawlspaces. You can approach it, but only after generating a very specific description of what you want to buy. First things first.

  • laxsupermom
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We're DIYers so there was no labor cost. I researched each item extensively and created a spreadsheet of what I wanted, the $ amt I allotted for the item(s), and the actual cost + shipping on those items to track spending on my kitchen project.

    I would think that if you had a firm plan for what you want, that you could go to several contractors and have them bid on your plan. They won't be able to bid on your project without details on what you want. At a bare minimum you need to know what surfaces, if there are layout changes, plumbing changes, walls being moved, etc. 225sq ft w/ no layout or plumbing changes, made in china rta cabs, and laminate can come in at 10k, but that same 225sq ft w/ walls moved, extensive plumbing and electrical moves on a concrete slab w/ a finished floor above, custom painted & glazed beaded inset cabs, onyx countertops, and integrated appliances can run upwards of 100k.

  • Bruce T
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you Jon1270.

    I get it now. Your post brought up a old saying I heard many years ago from a seasoned contractor who said "Never open up a wall on a Friday afternoon!

    Enough said.

  • live_wire_oak
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Give me the price of a cake?

    What kind of cake?

    White cake.

    What size?

    Oh, around a full sheet. But double layer.

    Any decorations?

    Well, yes, it's a wedding cake.

    ____________________________________

    Unless you have a very detailed description of the scope of work, you're not going to get very detailed bids. The first question about your budget is an attempt to figure out if you are really serious and worth their time pursuing an estimate at all since you don't seem to have a clue as to what the particulars might involve.

    You need to spec out the exact parameters of your job. The material and finishes of the current house, measurements in 19 different places, previous blueprints, blueprints for new plans, materials for new plans, finish level for new plans, etc.

    Average replacement kitchen remodels in the US are now around $30K. Average bath remodels are around $15K. That's with no structural changes and very little plumbing or electrical but new cabinets, countertops, appliances, possibly flooring and paint and accessories. About 50% of the budget generally goes for cabinets as they are the hardest thing to change out down the road. 15% is usually for appliances, 15% for countertops, 10% for flooring, and 10% for lighting, fixtures and paint. You may choose to put more emphasis on different aspects, such as higher end appliances, or perhaps flooring for the whole downstairs, etc. You may see yourself as above or below average, but a kitchen remodel will cost you about what it would if you bought a new car. Whether or not you're buying a budget Chevy or a E class Mercedes, only you can decide. BUt, don't go into the project with unrealistic expectations about buying a Mercedes on a Chevy budget. Every bit that you can DIY will increase your budget, but don't overestimate your skills and time spent in that department either, especially if you hold down a full time job.

  • luclin999
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We have set a budget of roughly $25k for our kitchen remodel (Not including appliances) and that is for..

    - Demolition (removal of the existing cabinets, floor tile countertops and ceiling)
    - Removing the drop ceiling and raising it to match the height of the rest of the house and re-running the air ducts through the the overhead floor joists.
    - New lighting for the new ceiling.
    - New floors (porcelain tile (Daltile))
    - New cabinets
    - New countertops (granite)
    - Tile backsplash
    - New sink

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    it sounds to me like they are asking you how much you want to spend so they can feel you out for how much they can suck out of you. I would never do business like that. I also do most of my own work however, there are times when I need someone to do some jobs for me. I buy the major materials and give them a very good description of what I want and ask them for a detailed WRITTEN bid. I also make contingencies. For example I had some one come in to do my bathroom. The job entailed ripping out the walls, putting in cement board, preparing the walls for paint and tile and putting in trim. I did my own caulking, tile and painting. I had some contingencies in there like moving a light switch and adding the vanity and fixtures. So I called several contractors up and told them to give me a bid on ripping out the walls, disposal fee, permit fees, putting up the new walls, picking up the materials for me etc. If you are doing some of your own work make sure you let them know what you are willing to do (all the painting, caulking, nothing etc). I asked them for a detailed list of the supplies they would need from me as well. You can shop around for the supplies later. (I meet them at the store for the big stuff to pay for the materials they need and pick the rest up myself), then I told them to tell me how much extra it would cost to move the light socket and put in the fixtures. I also told them to specify on the written bids when they can start, how long it would take and the payment terms. Since I usually buy all the materials, I do not pay until the job is finished and ask them if they have a problem with that. If it is a small job they shouldn't have a problem but I have had larger jobs done and I pay them half after half the job is done. I do not give them ANY indication of how much I am willing to spend, I do not share with them the amounts of anyone else's bids either and I make it clear they are not to do anything that is going to cost more once the bid is accepted without letting me know and see. I also ask them in advance if they see any problems that might come up and how much it would cost if it does come up (for example once they ripped my walls out what if there was rotted wood). You can negotiate once you have all the bids in. You have to be firm with contractors. Give them the perception that you know what you are doing even if you don't. I also make it clear they are to clean up everyday before they leave and I make sure they have a vacuum, broom and garbage bags available to do so. I don't usually tell them "you have to clean up before you leave" I usually say I left a broom, and some bags for your clean up today, is there anything else you need? If they mess anything up I make sure they know they fix it before getting paid. They will never come back once you pay them.

    This has worked out good for me so far. Once you get a few estimates you get a feel for prices. I don't usually use suppliers labor. You can price your own cabinets, tile, windows or whatever and mostly get bids for the labor and contingencies on their supplies. Sometimes they can suggest places to check for your supplies but check other places as well. I had a guy say they he needed trim and produced a receipt for trim for double the amount. Luckily I caught it before he used it. I told him to take it back and I will buy my own. He tried to say he paid $9 for a 10' piece of lattice trim at lowes and showed me a receipt. I went to lowes and brought the same exact trim for $3.96! I have no idea what his receipt was for but it was not for that piece of lattice trim from Lowes. He tried me a couple of times but after I showed him that he can not play these games we got on the right track.

    You do run into problems when you call for an estimate and do not know what you want. I find it is better if you have a very clear idea of what you want but can be flexible if they give you better ideas. When you get all your estimates you might change your mind on some things based on other contractors ideas.

    Also another ti. if you go pick out something like carpet and they say they will pick up later make sure you get the name and manuf of the carpet AND a sample. Some contractors will try to find similar items cheaper and pass it off on you. I had a friend who they did this to. She picked out a carpet and when they put it in she got out her sample and realized it was not the same carpet. She made him rip it out and go get the right carpet. He tried to give her a discount on the carpet but it was not what she wanted. He was pissed but had to do it if he wanted to get paid.

    So to sum before they ask what is your budget you tell them you are seeking bids and will go with the most fair bid. You can say you already have a couple of bids but be a poker face. Of course they will tell you they will meet or beat anyones price then you can ask, so are you saying you did not give me your best bid?

    Never say I have no idea how much this should cost. Say you have a budget in mind and are getting bids, you are ready to get it done in such and such a time frame and your decision depends on the bids you get, the references you obtain and other factors so lets get to the bid.

    Make sure you also check their references by looking at their work and call the permit dept, give them the address they give you and ask them if there were permits, and who the contractor was. It is not unusual for contractors to lie about work they were supposed to do. When you call permitting ask them also if they failed any inspections on that job. They will usually read you the notes over the phone. It is public record. You can also ask for the inspector to call you if you want to.

    Also make sure you get a copy of their insurance. Never let anyone do any jobs without insurance and verifying that it is valid.

    Also make sure you check on them as the job goes along.

    These are lessons I learned along the way. I know it is a lot of work but it is less work then double paying for a job, taking someone to court or getting ripped off. Unfortunately unscrupulous people made it hard for others and quite honestly I do not have the money to get ripped off.

  • ron6519
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "We have set a budget of roughly $25k for our kitchen remodel (Not including appliances) and that is for..
    - Demolition (removal of the existing cabinets, floor tile countertops and ceiling)
    - Removing the drop ceiling and raising it to match the height of the rest of the house and re-running the air ducts through the the overhead floor joists.
    - New lighting for the new ceiling.
    - New floors (porcelain tile (Daltile))
    - New cabinets
    - New countertops (granite)
    - Tile backsplash
    - New sink "

    If this was a small galley kitchen this is a tight budget unless you're doing a great deal of the work yourself.
    Ron

  • live_wire_oak
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As Ron said, that's an undoable budget for that amount of work to be professionally done. It'd be tight on a DIY buddget with anything above builder's grade materials. With the amount of structural issues you're describing, I'd expect the expenditures to be around double what you're estimating.

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I could totally do a small galley kitchen with that budget. Here is what I would do.
    Demo:
    you can call your local habitat restore and ask them to take out your cabinets and ceiling and you dont have to pay for the deconstruction, plus you get a tax credit for your donation. Then hire a contractor to do the drywall and vent moving and do your own finish work (prime/paint)

    cabinets and maybe the tiles:
    go to lowes and Home depot and give them a sketch of the dimensions of your kitchen including the height from floor to windows and placement of the doors or widows. You will get ideas of what size cabinets you need in the layout you want. They will give you a printout that shows the layout and your list of cabinets with sizes. With this list you can shop around and also check your Habitat Restores. I have seen many complete kitchens in there brand new. always go early in the morning and go often and check all of the local stores. (sometimes the stores have their cabinet inventory online) I found a whole box of hand painted tiles for my backsplash for $4 if I remember correctly.

    Lighting: check lighting stores. remember a lot of stores are going out of business and lots have slashed their prices. shop around

    granite:
    well not sure how to find deals on that shop around in granite places and tell them you are looking for a deal. not sure if you can get the granite AND the cabinets but I found if you shop outside of Lowes and home depot you can negotiate prices.

    back to the cabinets. Have you considered re doing the cabinets you have? you can change the doors, get new drawers and new hardware and your cabinets will look brand new for a fraction of the cost.

  • luclin999
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, the problem is that here in Houston, our 3000 sqft home is only worth about 193k and the most expensive home in the subdivision is currently appraised at $225k.

    We plan to sell the house in 3-5 years and I really do not want to overspend and basically not be able to recoup our expenses by pushing our house up past the price point for the neighborhood.

    This is the breakdown for what we have planned so far:

    Demo $2000
    Ceiling $2000
    Flooring (Materials) $1050
    Flooring (Labor) $1000
    Cabinets (Materials) $6000
    Cabinets (Labor) $1500
    Appliances $2000 (we are only buying a new slide-in range and keeping our other appliances)
    Tile/backsplash (Materials) $700
    Tile/backsplash (labor) $500
    Lighting/Electrical $1400
    Plumbing $600
    Countertops $4600

    I am actually planning to donate the cooktop but the existing cabinets are of such poor quality to be basically trash.

    The kitchen currently looks like this:

    The plans for the remodel are:

    With a final design to look like this:

    I spoke to the contractor today and they think that they can work within the budget to get what we want.

    I understand that the amount or the cabinets is low but I think it can be done with semi-custom pieces and if not I have about $1500 dollars still in the budget I can add to that amount if we really need it.

  • luclin999
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "As Ron said, that's an undoable budget for that amount of work to be professionally done. It'd be tight on a DIY buddget with anything above builder's grade materials. With the amount of structural issues you're describing, I'd expect the expenditures to be around double what you're estimating."

    Well the drop ceiling is basically just a large soffit housing a fluorescent light ballast and some ducting for two AC vents.

    We have had three different people tear into it and they all agree that there are no structural supports in the ceiling and there are 12" floor joists up above it for the bedroom on the 2nd floor which can easily accommodate the re-routed AC ducts.

    Essentially it just needs to be torn out and to have new sheetrock put up and textured to match the existing ceiling in the adjacent part of the house.

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think your budget is okay except you left no wiggle room in case something hidden is uncovered and your allotment for the cabinets looks kind of low for that many deep over-height cabinets.

    Suggestion, if the side of your fridge is going to be exposed I would put an end panel to make it look totally enclosed.

    Are you getting someone to do all the labor? This made me think if I had an expensive house and $20k to invest in my kitchen would I hand it over to a contractor or would I still attempt to do some of the work myself? I think I would at least do the tile myself. Who is going to paint the kitchen when it is all finished?

    Good job drafting the kitchen with the program by the way. which program did you use?

  • luclin999
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I used Chief Architect v10 for the plans and the rendered images.

    Technically, I have 4k set aside above and beyond the budget for overrun costs but I would prefer not to have to use it.

    I'll probably do the painting myself, I used the work as an interior painter for a few summers while going through school so I think I can do a fairly decent job.

    As for tile, I have zero experience laying tile. I might give it a try but honestly I'd rather pay the $$$ to have it done right than to mess it up myself and have to do it over again.

  • live_wire_oak
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    With the amount of tall cabinets, deep cabinets, angled cabinets, and island, and glass you have indicated, I'd really expect your cabinet budget to be double to triple what you've indicated in a moderate priced semi custom line like Kraftmaid. In a more stock line, like Shenendoah/Timberlake/American Woodmark,(Just above builder grade) I'd still expect the cabinets to top 10K easily as shown. Your install labor is low as well. I'm in a very low priced labor market,and specialize in lower priced kitchen remodels, and recently did a tiny tiny (12" galley) kitchen with very few specialty cabinets that the cabinetry came to 4K in and the install labor was $1300. Your tile labor is also low both for floor, but especially backsplash. Your electrical is low for the number of recessed lights you show and the description of the demo of the old light. I hope you are planning under cabinet lighting, as that's more important than the recessed lights.

  • luclin999
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We have already gotten to independent quotes for the floor which both came in at $2,000-$2,100 for both materials and labor which is why the budget reflects that.

    The backsplash will be a bit easier to install than it looks due the the product we are buying which comes in sheets with a mesh backing...

    Making it considerably easier to install over placing individual 3"x3" tiles.

    As to the price of the cabinets, I have spec'd out an order for American Woodmark which came in at $5900 delivered (not installed).

    While their product is not my favorite, I can live with it.

    I am still shopping around for the cabinets though and could push the materials budget for them up as high as $9500 if I really have to. (I'd just rather not)

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    if your house is built on a slab the tile will be a breeze to install. take one of those free workshops at home depot or lowes. you get a discount on the tile too which looks like what you picked is pretty standard.

    I thought the lighting budget was low too. Trust me I am a low baller but I was not expecting to see such an elaborate layout for $20k. live wire a 12" kitchen is pretty small. he could do that under $100 LOL. I know what you meant just chiding you.

  • happymary45
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msjay2u,

    I'm interested in more info about how you would research the materials and other cost-containing tactics you use. Have you ever done any contruction this way? Do you sketch out a plan with measurements and estimate the cost of the lumber, nails and so on? I feel as if people like me are babes in the woods just waiting to be fed upon by contractor wolves!
    Everyone's input is greatly appreciated!

  • amys_farmhouse
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello! I found with our budget, we decided what we wanted to spend. We drew up a "rough estimate", then shopped around so that the materials fell within our budget. I am posting a link to my web page....you can see extent of our remodel on the gallery page.
    www.lacyshomeplace.com

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Happy Mary, I am sorry for not replying earlier but I just saw your posting. I have a notebook from Walmart that is for exclusive use of my house that looks something like this but the patterns are different and more grown up looking:

    It is a 3-subject book, the dividers are plastic and have pockets. It cost about $7.

    In one section I have all my measurements and my floor plan. and each room measured individually. I measured every doorway (width and height), every window (width and length) and keep those measurements written on the room pages. I also have paint samples of all my rooms and since I made some of my curtains I also have a small swatch of my curtains. I keep the book in my car at all times. If you find a bargain it helps to know what size you need or a true idea of colors. It was a pain n the neck to put together (I did it over time) but well worth the effort. 2nd section has a list of projects, drawings of what I want and a list of supplies needed. Third section is for recording prices. When I go to the store I find all the things I need and write the store name in it and the prices. I also keep every receipt in the pocket. Much easier to find than in my posketbook. There is also a stretchable band to hold it closed. I have been doing this for a while now. I also use it as a bargaining tool because if you have prices written down and store names I found many times the stores will price match. I watch prices on everything and also ask contractors in the store their opinions on my projects. Oh and if you do such a book most important thing is to write a good phone number you can be called if you lose the book. I left mines in the store one day and it took me a couple of days to realize it was missing and forgot what store I left it in. When I remembered I went back and it was at the customer service counter and she told me she would have called if I had a number written in the book. Lesson learned!!

    I buy my tools from Harbor freight mostly but also find a lot of them when they go on clearance in Home Depot. If there is someting I want not on sale I always tell the tool guy what I am looking for and ask him to call me if they have a return (open box item) but you have to be careful with this as people will take stuff out and return it without all the pieces. I visit stores often so I can see what goes on sale when. I found tools can kill a DIY budget so I have been collecting tools for over 6 years now The second thing about tools is keeping them organized so you can find them when you need them. Nothing more frustrating than being in the middle of something and not be able to find your tools. I have separate tool boxes. one for plumbing one for wood working, one full of nails, screws and nuts etc.

    I do a lot of my own work so yes I do have a drawing with specifics of every project that I do. I sometimes make adjustments mid project though. LOL

    I do take advantage of free estimates (not in home though) but I am not one that can be pressured. The reason I do this is because it helps me to define what I want when I only have a rough idea. Like when I wanted kitchen cabinets. All I knew was I wanted new cabinets. Once I started getting estimeas I got an idea of what I liked as the sales people showed me options. I did wind up thinking that cabinets were out of my budget TOTALLy but when I got new doors in the style I wanted I was really happy with that and now realize that new cabinets were un-necessary. I am usually not an impluse buyer because I always feel I can find a better deal elsewhere and that forces me to shop around. It pays off.

    I guess I have an advantage. I am a property appraiser and I am on a lot of job sites and talk to a lot of contractors. I found they love to offer advice. I also learned that most jobs have left over supplies that get thrown away. I have gooten free wood like this. They are already paid for so for some small jobs you can get a worker to assist you and he is only getting money for his labor. For example I needed insulation in my garage roof. I asked a guy putting in insulation if he had any left over if he could come blow it in my garage. He did it for less than I would have paid to rent the machine and buy the supplies. I have pulled many contractors off a job site on their lunch break. LOL

    NEVER PASS UP AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO CONTRACTORS. I always ask about projects I am thinking of, the major supplies I would need and ask the costs involved especially labor if I find it to be beyond my scope of experience or time. I always double check what contractors tell me. My book is full of notes. I also note good work when I see it and get contact info. I hardly ever get any work done without seeing the persons work. There are a lot of bad contractors out there experimenting on people. Some work I get done with permits some not. It there is a danger involved I have them get permits and also check their insurance and reputation. You usually have to pay more for permited work but note that does not always guarantee a good job.

    I can go on and on but I won't. I hope this helps!

  • happymary45
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msJ,

    this is WONDERFUL info. I could listen to this type of advice all day. We could continue this discussion in e-mail, if you'd be willing. My e-mail address is mheidbrink@express-news.net. I'd like your advice about planning an addition. We are a long ways off from that, but I'm always trying to prepare for the day when we can finally start taking bids. I want to be sure and dazzle (and intimidate?) the contractors by knowing exactly what I want and about how much what I want will cost. Thanks again for the advice.

  • laurielep
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We had a $10k budget for a 300sq ft kitchen. We just upped it to $12,500 and I can no go a penny over.

    I know it can be done (has to!) We are hiring someone to do the tile ($5 sq ft), hang sheet rock, spackle and paint($400) and hang the cabinets ($800) We lucked out that my husband is a plumber and is doing a barter system with our labor so we are getting a good deal.

    We aren't removing any walls or anything, just a basic gut and everything new. Plumbing is staying and only minor electrical work is needed.

    a good 3/4 of our budget is already spent and my biggest fear is not having a cushion when we open this can or worms (demo) I allotted $1000 for my just incase fund, which my husband thinks we will spend every last dime!

    I also keep a book full of EVERYTHING. I take it everywhere I go, just incase I find a good deal I won't have to second guess myself on measurements!
    Just found all my knobs and door pulls at a store that was going out of business. I knew exactly how many I needed because I had a copy of my blueprints in my folder. Saved 90% that day!

    One other thing I did was took full advantage of the Home Depot, Lowes and Sears price matching. If you find it cheaper, they will match the price and give 10% off. We did that for all of our appliances and saved hundreds. IT was a little more running around but worth it to save.
    I just went back to Lowes today and saw that the stove we bought was $100 cheaper than it was 2 weeks ago when we purchased. In my folder I had all my receipts and they credited my bank card $100. Most stores will do that up to 30 days.

    Best of luck!

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yeah that book does come in handy Especially for having all your receipts on hand. It does take discipline to remember to keep the book in your trunk, to do all your measurements and to immediately put your receipts in the books pocket. It pisses me off when I go in a store and find I have forgotten to measure something OF COURSE the one measurement I needed so I wound up measuring everything. Worse yet if I go to the store and realize I took the book in the house and forgot it then try to wing it, get home and realize I got the wrong size/color whatever and have to take it back. I HATE THAT!! LOL.
    laurie I say you have the electrical and plumbing work done and if you do not have many cutouts do your own drywall. Atleast hang it and then hire someone to tape it and mud it. Visit a developing subdivision and look at a house that is being worked on so you can see how it is supposed to look (not all patched up LOL). Usually they hang the drywall and paint it last. Take one of those classes in Lowes on tiling and you will see just how easy it is. You can lay the tile and have someone come in and grout it for you if you are afraid to do that part. I do all my own painting without taping everything. wanna know the trick to that? get you a WOOSTER or PURDY angled brush, cut in your walls at the ceiling line, baseboard line and in the corners pretty heavy with the paint (not dripping) and then 2 coats of paint on the wall. Make sure you have canvas drop cloths the big ones to lay on the floor and use a good paint. I finally gave up on cheap brushes, plastic drop cloths and cheap Walmart paint and what a difference! I used to swear by Walmart paint because of consumer reports rating them so high then I found some oops paint for $5 (higher line valspar) and I could not believe the difference. A painter showed me the virtue of using good materials. I wash my brush out with water and get the stuck in paint out with a wirebrush and put it back in the handy little case they come in (the cardboard with velcro button). A good brush holds more paint, makes a BIG difference in the results and will last longer. I experimented on my garage and closets to make sure I could paint and I suprised myself! I tried paying a little more on Sears brushes and some other brands but Wooster and Purdy blow them all out the water.

    I don't mind if anyone emails me but I think it is fun to have the input of others. When you start planning your project start a thread on it and we can all help. If you want my input specifically just send me a message letting me know about the thread in case I miss it. Pictures always help too. I take pictures of a lot of my projects in stages. Actually I been working on a home book to publish when I finish everything (if ever). I am putting everything in a word document and going to convert it to pdf and have it published in b/w on lulu.com. Not to sell but to keep a memento of my house. I did one already and every time a family member sees it they ask me for it so I just have another one printed for me. I would never sell it though because too many weirdos in this world. Now if I move that is another story.
    I think btheis got hijacked here a couple of times but hopefully he got something out of all this too.

    oh and one last thing. Not a good idea to post your email on the thread because internet robots pick them up and spam them. In your profile you can choose to let people email you and we can get to you like that. It is much safer that way. I HATE spam!

  • happymary45
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, thanks for the hint about spam. I didn't even think about that! And, I'm all for more input, I just didn't want to hijack this thread any more than every one had already. It will be awhile before we get any projects going. My DH is out of work (bad, BAD economy) but hopefully he'll get a better job soon and we'll be in better shape. I just want to keep planning so I am more and more knowledgeable. Thanks so much for the info!

  • Stacey Collins
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Folks-
    This is exactly the thread I have been looking for!! Thanks so much. if anyone has any advice for me, I would really appreciate it.

    Our budget is super, super tight, but we're DIYers along the lines of msjay2u. We rehabbed a 1926 colonial and a 40 foot sailboat, almost entirely DIY. I am a big researcher and planner, and DH is a systems tech on boats, so very very handy at plumbing, electrical, and woodworking.

    We bought this 1950's ranch last fall in a much, much nicer neighborhood than we thought we could ever afford, because it needs updating and and is only 2 BR/2BA (market around here is ever so much better if 3+ BR). Our plan is to live here for 3 years, so our daughter can go to the good school. We'd hoped to be able to add a BR addition in that time, as well as do a major kitchen remodel and update the 2 existing baths and redo all the siding.

    At this point we have about $15k in the reno fund and another $30k in a home equity line of credit. We'd originally planned to do the kitchen and siding this year and put off the addition till next year, but when we started looking at the logistics of moving walls for the new kitchen, it became clear that it would be easier, and cheaper in the long run, to at least get the shell of the addition built, and weathertight, this year. We can always pick away at the walls and flooring and trim over the next year.

    BUT!! That means we need to get all that work done for $45k total! Right now we are at the stage of beginning to ask for bids. In fact today I will be sitting at the drafting board making more legible plans and elevations of our projcet, and we hope to start calling contractors this weekend.

    We, ourselves, will be doing all of the plumbing and electrical, all the trim and paint, hang the cabinets, and flooring and tile; so we really need only framing, roofing, and sheetrock labor (and materials of course) for that budget. We also hope to be our own General Contractor.... and source most of the materials ourselves. I have been looking at ReStore and craigslist for windows and doors. We bought a floor model fridge for $800 less than new, and scoured for deals on our range and DW. I'll be continuing to look for deals like this.

    Any advice on how much of the materials we should source ourselves, versus let the framing guy provide? What about things like renting the dumpster? Should we do that ouselves to avoid a mark-up?

    Stacey

  • cybrob
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Msjay2u
    Clearly someone severely mistreated at some point in your past. Have you considered getting counseling for your trust issues?

    The fact that you won't share your budget with a prospective contractor all but guarantees that good contractors will flee after a very short meeting.

    Your lack of trust along with your unwillingness to pay(everyone says they will pay a "fair" amount, but how do you know what that is?) ensures that you'll only deal with bad contractors. Which of course reinforces your knowledge that contractors can't be trusted.

    Clearly it works for you.

    When I need auto repair I take my truck to the mechanic. Then I describe the SYMPTOMS to the best of my ability. I don't try to diagnose. For example, truck is running rough. I may think it needs a tuneup. Idon't ask for a tuneup, I describe my problem and let an EXPERT figure out my best solution and don't treat him or her like a crook.(unless they prove otherwise)
    Best to you and yours.
    Rob

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rob, no need to be mean. I was just trying to be helpful in sharing my experience that has worked for me. I have been ripped off by bad contractors in the past as I am sure most people have and I learned to do some of my own work and learned how to be more careful when I need someone to work for me. I have not had a bad experience in a VERY long time. What I said works for ME. The price is the price why would i have to share with them how much I am willing to spend before they give me a price? If he feels like I am treating him like a crook by having them name THEIR price instead of telling them how much I have to pay then perhaps he is a crook.

    Anyway if you do not like the things I said that is your choice, this is a forum where people ask others a question and get responses. It is always much better when people are positive and friendly and do not bash others for sharing their experiences. It irks me when people feel the need to be negative and destroys the spirit of the forums. My Moms always taught me if you don't have something nice to say then don't say it.

  • cybrob
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msjay2u
    Did that seem mean? I'm sorry.

    "it sounds to me like they are asking you how much you want to spend so they can feel you out for how much they can suck out of you."

    "Jon1270", and "live wire oak" already answered that before you even posted it. I pondered awhile why it would be a big deal to give a number. I mean, if you tell me your budget is 50K that doesn't mean you are committed to spending that much. It is just a number. Your contractor would then need to show you the appropriate value. You seem to be afraid being sold a "budget chevy" for the price of an E class Mercedes.(thanks live wire oak).Surely your'e too savvy for that.

    So to answer your question "The price is the price why would i have to share with them how much I am willing to spend before they give me a price?"

    Because contractors are professionals and deserve at least a little respect. Specifically, respect their time. It has already been mentioned that it can take a great deal of time to put together a quote. So you provide a contractor with specs,he or she could make a swag in 15 minutes. The " detailed WRITTEN bid" you asked for could take many hours. Only then, after hapless contractor has wasted hours of time she could have spent earning money or playing with her kids does she learn that your budget is unrealistically low.

    But that doesn't matter to you. Clearly you don't respect contractors or their time. By your own admission you'll accept their free advice and their free materials with one hand and slap them with the other hand if the try to charge you $9 for a $4 piece of trim. You buy the material, presumably so they can't mark it up, but you meet them at the store to pay for it. SO THEY DELIVER IT FOR FREE?? You'll let people spend their time giving estimates on things you don't intend to buy so you can get ideas?

    "Also make sure you get a copy of their insurance. Never let anyone do any jobs without insurance and verifying that it is valid."

    That was great advice you gave on 1/20.
    Unfortunately you reversed yourself on 2/2

    "I have pulled many contractors off a job site on their lunch break. LOL
    NEVER PASS UP AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO CONTRACTORS. I always ask about projects I am thinking of, the major supplies I would need and ask the costs involved especially labor if I find it to be beyond my scope of experience or time. I always double check what contractors tell me. My book is full of notes. I also note good work when I see it and get contact info. I hardly ever get any work done without seeing the persons work. There are a lot of bad contractors out there experimenting on people. Some work I get done with permits some not. It there is a danger involved I have the get the permits and also check their insurance and reputation."

    So, do you always verify insurance or only when there is a danger? Did you verify the insurance of the contractors you pulled from other sites on their lunch break. Did you check references?
    It takes all kinds and truly I wish you well. Your method works to your satisfaction.
    From my perspective (yes, I know I'm the bad guy) you would represent the worst possible customer.You seem to be a grinder. You'll take everything you can get for free,and grind on price evrywhere else. The real beauty of life is that if we met about some work you wanted done you would conclude that you don't want to hire me about the same time I would conclude that I didn't want to work for you.

    Rob

  • xterra
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ahh yes the budget. we started our kitchen and living room remodel with a budget of approx. 50,000. this was money we saved over several years. we had hoped not to take out a home equity line,and finish with what we had. It started on the first day when we tore out the ceiling. my husband took one look at the rafters, and called our contractor, actually our carpenter. we are acting as our own contractor. we called in an engineer and to make a long story short, we had to rebuild our roof trusses from the inside. keep in mind our house is 60 years old. A good part to this enabled us to open up the kitchen, living room,and to eliminate a bedroom to make a beautiful open area. This increased our budget about 10 grand. As a result of some of the above issues our engineer had us go under the house, I mean husband and son, and dig 6 more holes to add piers to support said roof. in the process we jacked up floor, shaved floor joists,added new sub floor, to level a floor that was 2 inches out of level. another 8 thousand.

    We were fortunate we had purchased high end appliances 2 years ago and stored them in the garage. Our big mistake was not to at least line up extra financing prior to demo, as we now cant get a line until work is done. bank wont appraise until were done. fortunatly for some of the big box stores had programs for 1 year , no interest financing available. we are now nearing the end with beautiful results thanks to 2 excellent carpenters that have unending patience and are true craftsmen. they are doing finish trim, and will be staining next week.

    Our budget has expanded to just over 70 grand with the counter tops and flooring left. decided on granite,still undecided on floor,love mesquite or pine, we live in the mountians, have two big dogs, and grand kids and family over all the time, we need somthing somewhat distressed. I will try to figure some progress pics, if I can figure it out. good luck gina

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is a forum where people discuss experiences. No one is being forced to take anyone's advice on here including you. When I said you did not have to be mean I was referring to what you said: Msjay2u..Clearly someone severely mistreated at some point in your past. Have you considered getting counseling for your trust issues?

    That was unnecessary.

    To clarify some of my points:
    Some circumstances warrant insurance and some don't. Like if someone is doing electrical work. That can be life threatening or "dangerous" as I called it. If someone is simply blowing in insulation which does not even require a permit, they do not need insurance or maybe I should say that is a situation where I am more willing to take a chance that nothing bad is going to happen. On the other hand, if you hire someone to do permitted work without a permit, who claims to have insurance and you do not verify it and they get hurt on your property and you find out LATER they lied about the insurance, what do you think is going to happen? You think they just go to the hospital and that's the end of the story?? You can see someone's work and intend on hiring them, check the permit dept out and find they consistently fail inspections too. When I said I pull someone to do a job on their lunch break of course it has to be something really small. come one now!

    As for the free quotes, I do sometimes hire people to do the work or part of the work unless I find it was something way out of my range or something so simple that I can handle, which I will not know until I ask. Some jobs are way more complicated than people think and quotes help to put that in perspective. I don't usually get complicated quotes because I do things in pieces as budget allows. The quotes I get are usually for something simple or for something they punch in the computer and print off. If they act like it is a pain in the butt to give a quote then guess what, I walk... and that's my perrogative. I can get as many quotes as I want. Bids are a competition and it comes with the job and I am not obligated to use anyone's services no matter how long they spend on the quote. I have gotten quotes with the intention of hiring the person and I did, I have gotten them with the intention of doing the job myself and once they told me all it entailed decided it was too much for me to handle and wind up hiring someone to do it, I have gotten quotes with the intention of hiring someone and found it was out of my price range and did the work myself. I have also gotten quotes and did nothing. The contractor who does not give me the time of day will never get my work and the one who took the time to give me a good fair quote might get it or I might refer someone to them who will use their services. That is why they usually do them for free...

    I live 10 mintues from many stores including Lowes and no one but you has had a problem with them meeting me at the store. Who said some don't charge me a trip fee? Even though most don't, I don't think I specifically said that, I think I said I have them meet me at the store so I can pay for the supplies.

    I stand by the fact that there are lots of bad contractors out there, some who take money and walk off the job leaving people having to get other contractors to finish their mess, or who mess a job up and the person has to re-buy materials and pay someone to fix it or worse yet pay for their work get left with a half done job that the contractor does not intend on finishing and not have the money to get it done. There are all sorts of horror stories I can tell you that I have heard and I am not going to pretend that all contractors are good and trustworthy. I care about getting quality work done and a fair price. I also stand by shopping around and doing some of my own work when the purse strings are tight and keeping my information on hand for when I need it.

    I offered my experience and some appreciated it. I have no regrets. Funny how you took offense at the things I said and went so far as to do all that cutting and pasting to prove whatever you were trying to prove. It is almost as if you took it as a personal attack against you or something.

  • live_wire_oak
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you aren't informed enough about your project to know whether or not you've received accurate bids for your project and checked enough referenced to know if you can have a basic trust for your contractor, then putting him on a leash and hamstringing the process won't impact the way you do business very much. You've already got a desparate contractor on your hands in that job situation. Not a single quality licensed and insured contractor that I deal with, and I deal with literally hundreds, would take a job under those conditions. They would leave it to the "handymen" or the poor guys just starting out that are so hungry that they'll do anything to take that job. Treating a professional like a suspected criminal and micromanaging your contractor's profit situation will result in you either receiving a poor quality job in the hidden areas that you aren't knowledgable about, or it will eventually result in a contractor who isn't in business anymore.

    To get a good quality job from a professional, you need to treat them like a professional. Develop a well thought out and detailed scope of work and materials so that you can get accurate bids for your job. Get 3-5 bids, and reasses your bid proposals if the numbers are widely divergent. Check references and insurance, and pick your person. Have enough money on hand to cover unforseen problems. And let your contractor do the job you hired him for without dictating to him how he does that job. It IS what you hired a professional for in the first place. Otherwise, do it yourself.

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And so you agree too that I should tell him what my budget is before he gives me a bid? I think the only thing I said that is different from what you said is I ask for a list of supplies and shop around for the best price. When I (personally) hire a professional it is for the labor and I should not have to use his supplies if I can find them cheaper although I might ask him how much he can get them for. The major question here was are we supposed to be telling them that we have x amount of dollars to spend so how much are you going to charge? I don't think not telling him ahead of time is treating him like a crook. If he has to feel me out for my budget then is he really a professional? Is it professional not to know how much you charge for labor until you find out how much you can get? Are you saying when I hire a contractor I am obligated to use all his supplies too? Even if he supplied me a quote on the supplies and I found them for a better price?

    Some people hire a contractor to do it all and supply it all. I think only then it would matter how much I am willing to spend because then it would dictate what he can buy for the job. I think that is the ONLY time I should divulge my budget but I would do my homework and state that I am willing to spend x amount of dollars on windows plus labor. If you start someplace like Lowes you have a general idea what the job would cost and you can tell him exactly what you need and then he can give you a quote without telling him how much you can spend. he would know then that you did your homework.

    I believe in doing homework so how would you go about doing it? I buy my own supplies (I am talking windows, lumber stuff like that not caulk, tape and misc things like that although I do have some of those things on hand just in case). If he can get the same for cheaper then go for it but I have not had a contractor offer me supplies for less than I can find them.

    Contractors expect you to check references and also verify their insurance. They might not expect you to call planning to see if they failed any inspections on the jobs they gave references for though. They never even have to know about that.

    I think I told you that I do not have a lot of money so I do not hire these high dollar contractors to do anything for me because I can not afford them. I do get quality work done though because I do shop around. Whether they are starving contractors or not is not what I ask so I do not know that and it is none of my business. I do know they have a license and insurance though.

    BTW...with the market as it is they will all be willing to take on any job soon and prices will be going down.

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was out in the yard thinking about this while cutting limbs and decided to ask a question because I really want to know. If you are hiring a contractor to add a room on your house, you have no idea how much it should cost but you know you want the room 12x15, 3 medium quality windows, hardwood floors and drywall. You call a few contractors to bid on the job. You have no idea how much this is going to cost you but you have $40,000 to spend. When the contractors come to bid the job, you tell them just what I listed above, that you want him to do the entire job including buy the windows etc and the outside is to match the house are you saying if he asks you how much do you have to spend you should tell him $40,000 and THEN wait to see what he bids on it?

    Same scenario but this time you tell him you want him to build the room, you will buy the windows, wood for the floor, siding, roofing, paint and drywall is it still okay for him to ask how much are you willing to spend and you tell him $35,000 (or whatever is left over after buying the supplies)?

    What if you only want him to do the foundation, frame it out and put on a roof and you buy the wood, cement and roofing materials? Meaning basically this is a labor only job?

    I read over what I originally posted and it sounded okay to me. No idea what was in micromanaging. Are you guys saying to hire someone to do a job and never check on them? I went into a ladies house the other day who had a room put on and they put the carpet down before finishing put cheap plastic on it but still got the carpet dirty (tracking red clay dirt). Had she been there to check she could have caught that. I asked her was she going to have them clean the carpet? She said no. I did not offer my opinion on that because it was not my place.

    Also let me tell you about the situation with the last guy who tried to up the price on the lattice wood. I saw some of his work in a subdivision I was working in and I asked him if he could install 2 doors for me. He came to the house looked at the doors. The front door frame had to be modified because it was too small for a standard door. He told me how he would modify the frame. He looked at the back door and told me that would be a standard install. He said he would charge me $125 for the front door and $95 for the back door and explained that some places charge less but he had to charge me a little more because there was more work involved. I thought wow he is really low since I was expecting to pay $300 for the front door and about %150 for the back door. Since he was so low I asked him to also install 6 windows. The order of work would be the front door, then all the windows (the front door and windows were in one room) and lastly the back door. He agreed.

    Okay that was fine. I told him I did not have a truck but there was a door in Lowes I wanted and could he meet me there to get it. I already had the windows and because I do a lot of work around here I also had a lot of trim, wood, and caulk. All he had to buy was his nails. Before we got to the store he stated the only way the price would change is if he ran into any rotten wood and then gave me another price if that happened. I knew that my house was built with cedar and extremly hard wood and there was no chance of him finding any rotted wood even though this part of the house was built in the 60's.

    When we got to Lowes we were waiting for the guy to get the door when he saw the sign stating that they charge $150 for a door install. He said wow they used to be $95 I wonder when they went up. I told him that was the standard price for a while now. He said he been doing new construction for a while and maybe he got out of tune with the going prices on individual jobs.

    So he comes to do the front door first. He had to take out the door, tear out and rebuild part of the frame and install the door. He then accidentally broke a hole in the shingles on the side of the door when removing the old one and had to fix that. I felt bad for him doing all this work so in my mind I said I was going to pay him $200, $75 more than he asked. He finished the door and told me I had to pay an extra $50 for the frame build out. Now remember he looked at the door before giving me a price and already told me that the price would not change unless he ran into rotten wood (until he saw how much Lowes was charging). Maybe he was counting on rotten wood to up the price but I was there when he tore out the frame and there was none. Okay so since he changed the price I gave him what he wanted $175 instead of the $200 I was going to pay him. Then it came time for the windows. He did 2 of them first and did a nice job. Then he said he was ready to do the back door and would finish the windows and repair the siding last. He also said that the back door price changed to $175 because he said he would have to build it out too (which was not true since it was a standard size door). I told him to finish the windows first like we discussed, because I wanted one room finished before moving to the other door, fix what he broke and then we will get to the back door. There was nothing he could do on the windows to charge extra because there was no rotted wood there either so I guess he decided to buy some $5 tubes of caulk and charge me $9 (x5) for wood. I told him I already had a case of that same caulk and would give him back what he used and he would have to take that trim back and I would get my own since I can beat that price which I did. He finished the job, I was satisfied with his work, I paid him. He told me that we would do the back door next but I told him I would not be getting it done at this time. In the end I got what I wanted, 6 windows installed and a door for just $50 over the contracted price and $100 less than I was willing to pay. And remember HE gave me his bid and I went with what he was charging. Oh and I did give him a waste basket to put the wood in and provided a vacuum too. LOL

  • live_wire_oak
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In your first instance, you would have researched the lumber and materials and finish materials needed to construct your addition. You would have talked to several contractors informally about your plans and have gotten several ballpark figures without your request for bids documents. Then, after doing your research and informing yourself that your idea will not be doable to the level you desire at your budget, then you revise your plans to accommodate the budget you have and create a set of bid documents which have a detailed list of all of the labor tasks and all of the items and level of finish you desire for the addition. Then you pass those specs along to 5-7 contractors for bidding apples against apples. Because you thouroughly understand your project, and have developed proper bid documents, your estimates should fall between parameters close to your budget. Then, you narrow down your choices between 1-2 guys and investigate their insurance and bonding and other factors. WHen you have decided on a contractor, you meet with your lawyer to go over the written contract and ensure that it is fair to both parties, especially in the change order process. Then you proceed to the intial deposit and the work can begin.

    In your real life scenario, you did not even follow your own stated guidelines. You found some guy who was working and you thought that you could get a better price from him and that you'd rely on his full time employer's vetting his skills and ethics by the sheer virtue that he had a job already. You got an initial estimate up front, and didn't proceed to an actual contract. You just hired him based on the estimate. You didn't get bids from multiple contractors on the spec'd same exact work, and you didn't have a written contract (which is different than an estimate), and you didn't check insurance and references. You have no idea of who you just let into your home. And you had no written contract to fall back on if things became ugly about the pricing structure of the job. And, he was not licensed as a contractor, so if he fell off the ladder installing the windows, your homeowner's insurance would have had to pay, and then your policy would be "up for review" because you were allowing unlicensed tradespeople to perform work on the home. In the end, you may have saved a scant few bucks, but you risked a whole lot.

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well there you have it btheis you finally got an answer. We went all around the world and back to get it but you finally did get it. LOL. Lesson learned, I hope you got out of what he said is you have to do your homework before asking for a bid and then you probably won't be asked what you are willing to spend.

    What I gave were guidelines not rules as some situations are going to be different. When I was talking earlier we were talking about a $30k job not a few hundred dollars. As for my situation he is a licensed contractor who subcontracts for a local builder. That I know. I had seen him working with this builder for a while now but did I know him personally? No. So yes in essence you are right, he was a stranger as all contractors/workers usually are.

    I had been trying to get windows and a door in here for some time and had not done so. I had a pretty good idea of how much it was going to cost but we were talking custom work because of the sizes of everything. If I got a standard door I could not get anyone to do it because the door frame had to be modified and a lot of people did not want to do it. I had gotten several quotes on the windows but like I said it was more than I was willing to spend on an interior porch. I chanced upon a good deal on the windows and had them here but of course none of the guys I previously got quotes from on custom windows would put them in for me because I did not buy them from them. I was not planning on the windows at the time I hired this guy. As for the door I had to get the header of the doorway raised 4" to accommodate a standard door (vs getting a custom made door). Lowes, HD and none of the local stores could order the door in the size I needed and had to go to these custom door people. I then tried to find a carpenter to modify the door frame but none would take on the job in the winter and this room was making my room freeze which made my house freeze (I had jalousie windows and believe it or not a jalousie door).

    So ONCE AGAIN you are right we did not have a contract for the door or the windows, just a written estimate and no I did not check insurance in this case. The only ladder involved was a 3 step step-ladder. I took my chances. Under different circumstances I would have never done that.

    So here is what I stuck by:
    I saw his work
    He was licensed.
    I had a pretty good idea of the price by asking around
    I did have a set start and end date and order of work (written)
    I did get contingencies (what if's)but not written
    I did check on his work as it went along
    I did make him clean up later

    What I did not follow from my advice is:

    I did not get estimates for the same EXACT job I just went by Lowes and HD install price and from asking around.
    I did not have a formal contract. (Although if he took the job the estimate terms are binding according to court TV)
    I did not have him pull a permit (none needed in this case)
    and did not check for insurance

    Bottom line, you are right, if something would have happened to him I would have been in a world of mess. Thank God it turned out all right, with no mishaps and in the end I was very happy with the job.

    And I have enjoyed this debate although I did not enjoy saying YOU ARE RIGHT so many times. LOL

  • cybrob
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    msjay2u

    you definitely have to be flexible in your projects to get much of your material from Habbitat Reuse stores. Is that and other various discount items the extent of materials you supply when a contractor is providing labor?

    stacyneil
    I only skimmed your post the first time, then I noticed that you asked about supplying a dumpster(I think that was just an ex. of something you could provide?) in order to avoid a mark-up.

    This is along the lines of what I'm asking msjay2u. I know she saves on Reuse items, I'm not clear on her take on material mark-up. I don't think I'm making too big a leap of faith to say she does feel she is avoiding the mark-up; but I've been wrong before. If you don't believe me just ask her.

    Based on my experience along with horror stories I've heard from other contractors, If you save money by supplying material,Thereby avoiding the mark-up, the contractor screwed up big time. I'm not talking about discounted or Reuse items. I'm talking about things for which you pay the same or maybe more than the contractor.

    If you saved money because he didn't get to mark-up the material, how was that a screw-up? I mean, he didn't supply the material, why should he get to mark it up? The answer, of course is that he shouldn't. But that's only a techniqality. He could be in deep trouble and here is why.

    Accountants please cut me some slack here. Thanks.
    Let's say our contractor did $1M in volume last year. On his jobs he provided materials and labor. This amounted to $600K. The remaining $400K covered overhead and profit. Let's further assume his profit was fair(whatever that means) Now we can determine his mark-up. It is total volume/job costs, or 1M/600K= 1.66

    Let's price an easy job, apply mark-up and see how we do.
    A simple storage building: 10x12 built on runners,with T1-11 siding and a gable roof. very straight-forward job
    Material -$900
    labor- 290
    jobcost- $1190
    1190*1.66(mark-up)=$1975 cost to customer.
    He did this job 506 times and covered all his costs and made his same (fair) profit.

    Now let's see what happens when his customers supply the material and he sticks with the same mark-up.

    Material--$0
    labor$--$290
    jobcost 290
    job cost*mark-up 290*1.66=$481 cost to customer.

    He does this job 506 times. Total volume for the year:$244K
    First example almost $400K to cover OH and profit
    Second example about $99K to cover OH and profit.
    Hopefully the guy in the 2nd ex. would wise up before he goes bankrupt(leaving unhappy customers in his wake)!!

    This example takes it to ridiculous extremes. But it is stunning how small errors( or errors that just seem small) can kill cahflow.

    Most contractors work too hard for too little money, just like you. When I read things like what msjay2u writes, I FEEL that she is trying to get over on contractors and that it is fair to do so because we're dishonest anyway.

    If you want a good contractor, pick and choose the advice from this forum very carefully. Some of it is fine (although certainly not original) some of it will send good contractors running.

    Low-bidder: The guy desparately trying to figure out what he missed!

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    CYROB,,,You FEEL wrong I am hiring labor only and shopping around for materials. There is nothing wrong with that. If I had the money to pay for it all in one place I might because I spend a lot of time and effort looking for deals and my time is worth money too.

    Some items in Habitat are leftovers from jobs and instead of contractor's crediting the customer back for the materials they paid for SOME rather take it to the Habitat and get a tax credit for themselves. Don't believe me? Ask. well you probably know.

    Of course you pick and choose what advice you take, it is just a collaboration of experiences that people state based on their own experience not a place where you have to do what anyone says. I never said I was an expert. Some on here are professionals, some contribute things they read and some contribute what they experienced. That is the beauty of a forum and it works when people use it in the way it was intended.

    Stop concentrating on the negatives and try contributing something positive to the conversation and answering the questions of the OP. How about that? At least live wire oak tried to answer the question while debating with me. Take a lesson on how to dispute an opinion in a positive way. And again I see you are taking things personally....

    This is beating a dead horse now ...
    I'm done

  • chrisk327
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I thought Cyrob added something to the conversation regarding overhead etc and why there is a material markup.

    I don't see anything wrong with shopping for your own material on some things, but there are consequences.

    A contractor needs to make X on a job that takes a week of his crews time. he's either going to make it on labor and materials, or labor. if the total for the day that he has to make is $1000 and he was going to make 300 from marking up materials and 700 on labor from his crew. If you take the mark up from the materials, he should be, and probably is going to charge you $1000 for the labor if you are providing the material.

    The other problem, mentioned in the thread is, everything needs to be ready and waiting for it really to work out in everyone's favor, otherwise, the contractor still has to go to the store to procure the missing parts and or things to complete the job.

    Are you really concerned about provided caulk? seriously? you are getting itemized bills at that level? come on. Do you get a count on the nails and only pay for 50% of the box?

    Only way I see providing materials working in the Homeowner's favor, and I'm a homeowner is if you can get a significant discount over what the contractor can get. ie contractor was going to pay too much for the specialized item that you can find over the internet a lot cheaper. Or if you don't want them to screw it up, ie ordering the wrong cabinets, windows, etc.

  • cybrob
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    chrisk327
    thanks.

  • happymary45
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My two cents here, and I'm not very experienced with this stuff, but I did live with a house painter for many years...

    Aren't you paying for labor and knowledge when you hire a contractor and all of his/her subcontractors? I can see that if you are very familiar with materials, the process, exactly what you want done, it would make perfect sense to buy your own materials. Unfortunately, people in the contracting business do NOT have very good reputations in general because the bad ones give the whole industry an iffy reputation. I would refer you to this discussion: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/remodel/msg1113553819746.html.
    And, when it comes to revealing your budget to the contractor, I think many people feel like they might get a bid that takes up their whole budget. I feel the same way about mechanics. I know there are many wonderful car mechanics in the world, but I also feel like when I walk in, they see a sucker they can take advantage of.
    I appreciate msjay2u's experience and knowledge because I don't have the kind of money it takes to just hand the project over to someone and maybe get what I was hoping for $100K later. There are many of us out here who can't do the DIY stuff, but are still willing and able to get involved so that we can get the most bang for our buck. Contractors should be making their money like the rest of us: figuring out how much their time and labor is worth and charging accordingly, NOT trying to fill in the cracks with mark-up on materials. I don't think most contractors are apt to be 'taken advantage of' by a homeowner who does her homework. If they don't like the arrangement, they don't have to take the job. Also, in my expereince, most contractors do bids as a matter of business. Some will charge for a bid and I really don't think there's anything wrong with that. I feel on more even footing with that arrangement, as long as it's not some exorbitant amount of money. Again, I really appreciate the input of someone like msjay2u on this forum because not all of us have a ton of money to spend on remodeling. maybe I've misunderstood the whole gist of this discussion, and if I have, I apologize.

  • msjay2u
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    THANK YOU.

    MY POINTS EXACTLY!!

  • happymary45
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Actually, this is the link I meant to pass on, it's hilarious! And it makes me leery of hiring anyone to help me out!

Sponsored
MAC Design + Build
Average rating: 4.3 out of 5 stars18 Reviews
Loudon County Full-Service Design/Build Firm & Kitchen Remodeler