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Crazy PO

Posted by amber_89 (My Page) on
Tue, Dec 7, 10 at 17:39

So I just bought a new house but before we bought the house we rented it for a month. During that time the owner was supposed to remove some furniture from the house. Needless to say they never picked up the furniture and on the day of signing they were supposed to but still didn't.

Now we've had the house for about a month and the PO contacts me asking when they can come get the furniture. Well we bought the house as is so anything that was in the house when we signed became ours. So I told her that we are planing to keep the furniture and to please not contact us anymore.

Well this all happened through text messages. So then she text me telling me basically that she was going to tell everyone in town what bad people we are and that everyone will know where we live because the house is at a well known address. So I messaged her back just telling her that she shouldn't threaten people and that if she keeps calling/texting me it's harassment and to leave me alone.

If she would have gotten the furniture right away I wouldn't have cared, but she's using our house like a storage unit until it's convenient for her to pick it. Which is not okay so we decided to keep it as it's been in our house for so long she obviously didn't want it back that bad.

Has anyone else had to deal with anything like this? And I mean we are in the right here, aren't we?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Crazy PO

You're in the right. Stick to your guns. She was using you as you said as free storage and should not be allowed to get away with it. Let her talk, chance are good she's like our PO a real nutjob and the people in town know it!
After we started to get to know people in our new area and they found out where we lived the stories started coming out about what a nutjob our PO was. Many asked how on earth we ever were able to complete a deal with her. I'd simply block your PO's from your cell. No reason to even talk to her.


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RE: Crazy PO

In our case it was the PO's daughter who called soon after we moved in. She asked if we were going to replace some ceiling fixtures, and, if so, to please keep them for her. By the time she called again, months later, with some excuse about having been too busy to pick them up, I had gotten sick of waiting and thrown them out. My wife felt bad about it, until I convinced her we had done nothing wrong. By the way, we gradually learned that our PO was disliked by everyone, workmen as well as neighbors.


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RE: Crazy PO

Geez, give them the furniture - it's the right thing to do even if they were inconsiderate. You just want to punish them by not giving up the furniture and that's just silly.


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RE: Crazy PO

kellyeng

Give it back so we can have her tell us five more times when she is going to pick it up and then have them not show up at all? I don't think so. Maybe it is "silly" but she has been nothing but an inconvenience to us. And we tried to have her setup a time to pick the stuff up time and time again. I have other things to do then wait around for her to come pick up her stuff and not show up, so I put an end to it. Heck even our realtor told us she'd keep it if it was her (she also said that this lady was one of the worst clients she's ever had to deal with). I understand that the nice thing to do would be to keep trying to work with her to pick the items up but there is only so much inconvenience one person can take.


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RE: Crazy PO

I would let them come in and get the furniture.


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RE: Crazy PO

You could tell them what day you will be setting it out by the curb. ;)


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RE: Crazy PO

Happened to us many years ago. The house was empty except for some stuff in the basement and the light fixtures. The sellers were living in Florida. Day of closing their lawyer was present with the sellers on the phone. The wanted their 'stuff' in the basement. We said they could arrange to come get it as we didn't want it and would throw it all out.

They buyer then said she wanted the ceiling fixtures, especially the chandelier in the dining room. I refused as it was a very large fixture which hung from the 20ft ceiling. I thought it came with the house. There was nothing in the contract about the house not including the lights.

Long and short, we waited a month for them to come get their 'stuff.' We called their lawyer and told him we were throwing it out on Monday. They sent their adult son to come and get it on Sunday. We kept the lights even though she offered to pay for them. We refused as we liked them and didn't want to deal with changing a chandelier.

Keep whatever you want.

Jane


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RE: Crazy PO

I'm assuming you want all the stuff. If that's the case, tell the PO in a way that you can preserve the communication (email or written letter - not text) that you now own the items and if she contacts you further, she'll have to deal with your attorney.

Keep a copy as you may need ultimately need proof that you've communicated with her.


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RE: Crazy PO

I'm with terriks on this one. Let them know that whatever you don't want will be free game on the curb on x day. If they REALLY want it, they can come get it.


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RE: Crazy PO

I'd let her have the furniture. As terriks says, give her a date that it'll be at the curb, and leave it at that.

Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with (or enjoy) the furniture, given this situation -- why do you want to keep it?


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RE: Crazy PO

ottawavalleygardener
Well I can't really just put it out on the curb, it's winter so I don't think sitting it out in the snow would be helpful. And besides I think at this point I shouldn't have to go through the trouble of doing anything after all I have already given her chances to come get it without her showing up (which has wasted multiple days of use sitting around the house waiting for her).

And as for enjoying other peoples furniture, well you can tell the furniture has only been lightly used as it's all white and in like perfect condition. It was in a sitting room which I don't think got much use. And as of right now we aren't planing on keeping it (it's not our taste) but we also aren't going to keep waiting around for her to pick it up as it takes up a lot of room. So we're planing on giving it away to someone we know will actually some get it when they say they're going to.


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RE: Crazy PO

Buying a house "as is" has nothing to do with whether items convey. Your contract should have had a section detailing what conveys - typically fixtures, appliances etc.

Frankly, the path your on could definitely get you sued. I wouldn't keep playing games like this without consulting a lawyer.(not your agent)


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RE: Crazy PO

What conveys is one question, who owns what's left in the house after closing is a different question.


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RE: Crazy PO

"Frankly, the path your on could definitely get you sued. I wouldn't keep playing games like this without consulting a lawyer.(not your agent)"

amen.

You know the owners of that furniture want it back;
give it to them & get these people out of your life.


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RE: Crazy PO

I would give them one more chance, and have it all documented. If they don't show up, then consider it yours. They can't really sue if you can prove that they aren't coming to get it.


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RE: Crazy PO

They may have inconvenienced you, but you don't want the furniture yourself, so it is a bit of being the dog in the manger. Show some kindness and compassion, give them a chance to collect it and move on. You can choose to make this a positive issue or a negative one by your reaction. If they don't pick it up, let them know you are donating it to a charity, then do so.


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RE: Crazy PO

They have certainly been rude and inconsiderate, but it was clear to you that the furniture was theirs and they wanted it (even though their lack of action seems to indicate otherwise--and maybe there really were unforeseen circumstances that kept them from getting it--a month can slip by very easily). I think you do need to be careful here, as well as applying the golden rule.

I would ask her IN WRITING to give you a firm date in the next week, agreed to by you both, that she will get it. Spell it out that in light of the fact that she has been a no-show previously, this is her only chance to reclaim the property and failure to get it will constitute her agreement that it is yours to dispose of or use as you see fit. Send it through her agent, maybe, as a witness that you have tried to accomodate her.

Hah! Maybe charge her a storage fee!!

I personally wouldn't want to keep it, I wouldn't consider it mine, but I wouldn't also babysit it indefinitely.


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RE: Crazy PO

Wow I would really like to see you people try to deal with this. Waiting at home on multiple occasions for someone to come pick up their stuff and then never showing up! This could go on forever and your telling me I should keep doing it and keep waiting for them. And we did give them one last chance at closing to get their stuff. And actually they did come and get some of it but for some reason they didn't take all of it. And I really don't see how it could get me sued since in the contract Anything in the house at the time of closing becomes ours. She is the one ignoring the contract and harassing us!

Thank you to everyone who replied that understands what a pain something like this can be!


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RE: Crazy PO

Roserobin - I think the OP DOES want the furniture.

I agree with the OP - the furniture was left in the house - the POs had opportunities to come and get it but didn't show up - it rightfully belongs to the OP. I would keep it.

I think the POs have a lot of nerve. I would be way too embarrassed to even thinking about calling the new owners and asking for the furniture back after not taking it with me originally and not picking it up when first presented with the opportunity.


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RE: Crazy PO

as an outside 3rd party, I have to say that I think that both you and the PO are behaving like children. sorry that they inconvenienced you, but grow up...you sound like a toddler throwing a hissy fit.

btw-if you don't want free advice that differs from what you WANT to hear...don't post on a message board asking for advice.


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RE: Crazy PO

"they did come and get some of it but for some reason they didn't take all of it."

maybe they couldn't get it all in one trip.
maybe they had to get more help.
maybe they had a doctor's appointment.

You know they want the furniture,
you know that if you don't give them the furniture, they'll spread the word that you're mean-spirited at the very least.

You posted "I mean we are in the right here, aren't we?" but you refuse to consider that you are *not*.

Do you really want to "prove a point" badly enough to get your reputation trashed?

Give them the furniture or bear the well-deserved consequences.


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RE: Crazy PO

When did I actually say I didn't want to hear someone's opinion? I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want to, also just because I want to hear what other people have to say doesn't mean I agree to it.

And really? I'm being childish because I want someone to stop harassing me about property that now belongs to me? That's a really silly way to think.

And I did post this more of a question which I hadn't meant and I really just wanted to know if others have been in situations like this before. And it has gotten me to do some more research. Some of you are right as just buying a home "as is" doesn't not make the personal property left behind mine. But since we have in the contract that any personal items left in the property at closing will become mine she really doesn't have any legal rights to it.


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RE: Crazy PO

I do agree with you that these people are rude, inconsiderate and slightly crazy. I was dead serious about putting the furniture on the curb - regardless of the weather! If you don't want to worry about them coming back on you legally perhaps you could send them a certified letter, with return receipt, telling them exactly what date and time they can pick up the furniture, and if they fail to do so you will consider that they have waived all rights to the furniture. You may want to run it by an attorney, but I probably wouldn't go to that expense myself.


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RE: Crazy PO

""Frankly, the path your on could definitely get you sued. I wouldn't keep playing games like this without consulting a lawyer.(not your agent)"

amen.

You know the owners of that furniture want it back;
give it to them & get these people out of your life."

Exactly!


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RE: Crazy PO

The PO had at least two months to make arrangements to get the furniture and didn't. If they couldn't have taken it all at one time they should have said something to the new owner at that time. They didn't.
At the closing of the house ANY items left in it become the property of the new owners. That's law in most places I've lived so suing isn't an option for the PO.
The poster did her best to be there for the then homeowner to get her stuff but she repeatedly didn't show or call. How many times are you willing to be a door mat for someone before you say no more?
I think the new owner went above and beyond holding on to the stuff as long as she did. It's her time and money that was wasted waiting for this flake. The PO needs to move on.


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RE: Crazy PO

Absolutely. I can't believe the comments about the OP arranging 'again' to have the furniture picked up. She bought the house and it belongs to her.

I sold my house this past March. We cooresponded with the buyers regarding what would be left behind. They wanted the patio furniture, grill, and anything 'we didn't want' left behind. We did that but a month after the closing we realized we left an expensive extension ladder behind, (we had 20 ft ceilings and used it to change the light bulbs, decorate our tall x-mas trees and clean the ceilings).

Our new place has 14ft ceilings and we could use the ladder to change the light bulbs but never thought of calling the buyers to ask for our ladder. It was our mistake to not take it and it belongs to them just like anything else we left behind. I wish we had that ladder as changing the lights is a major pain. Possession is....

I would send a registered letter to these people telling them if they continue to harass you, you will have to take legal steps.

Jane


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RE: Crazy PO

I also agree you've given them enough chances to pick the furniture up, which was already more than you had to do. I'd give it away or sell is as quickly as you can, since you don't want to keep it, so you can tell them it's gone.


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RE: Crazy PO

Amber, you didn't explain the whole story in your first post, specifically that on five occasions you were ready to hand over the furniture and the previous owner was a no-show.


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RE: Crazy PO

Property laws vary by state, so again, consult a lawyer before you do anything with disputed property. You don't know the laws governing your situation and have made no attempt to find out what they are from any credible source. It doesn't matter if the PO's are crazy or rude or whatever. All that matters is the laws of your state that addressing unclaimed property at the time of sale. Almost all states have some set of procedures you have to follow for unclaimed property before you dispose of it or have a legal right to it.


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RE: Crazy PO

Property left behind in a home sale is not 'unclaimed property.'


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RE: Crazy PO

"Property left behind in a home sale is not 'unclaimed property.'"

Is that your legal opinion? This was a rental first and converted to a purchase. The items in dispute were not to convey with the home. It is certainly complicated enough that I would never rely on some armchair-lawyering receive on the internet.


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RE: Crazy PO

It's in the contract they both signed at the purchase of the house ANYTHING LEFT at the house after the close becomes the property of the new owner. The contract they signed IS a legal and binding contract. No need to do anything else.


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RE: Crazy PO

I would give them an ultimatium pick up on Day X at 7pm, and thats it, its going away at that point. However, do this on a call, not in a txt messege, I really don't get how everyone thinks a txt messege is an appropriate form of communication for some things.

I understand this has been a pain, but really, they bought furnature, you knew beforehand that you weren't getting it with the house. are you really getting into a stupid legal fight over furnature you don't want? who cares what the law is, it doesn't really matter, b/c it should never come to this. I can just see this on judge judy now.

you're really going to consult a lawyer on some furnature that was left in your house? don't you have better things to do with your money?

tell them, pick it up then, or its going to the curb, thats what normally happens with this kind of thing assuming it doesn't cost anything to get rid of it.

the complication is, you apparently want this furnature and think you have some kind of right to it.


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RE: Crazy PO

First you said you were going to keep it, then you weren't going to keep it but give it away, first it has been a month (the first month after closing) before they try to contact you, then they've been no-shows multiple times in that month---it is confusing.
There may be a clause in the sales contract about items left, but you also were asked and agreed to letting them get these specific items. So now it is a gray area.
I still think the best option, not knowing the laws in your state, to give them a single firm date, and in writing on paper tell them if they don't get it it is forfeit. Spell out the times you've tried to accomodate them.
You really don't want to end up in small claims court.


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RE: Crazy PO

raee

I told them we were keeping it so the po when leave us alone, but I'm planing on giving it away to someone who I know will come pick it up. It was the first time they contacted us since closing, but the previous month when we were renting they had plan to pick it up multiple times and never showed up. And I said in the post early that in the contract it says that Anything left in the house after closing becomes ours, that includes personal items. I hope that's easier for you to understand.

graywings
I realize I've been explaining things in bits and pieces sorry I know that can be a bit confusing.

And to everyone who says to put in on the curb, it's the middle of winter and the furniture is like new. I'm not going to ruin perfectly good furniture just to get it out for my house.


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RE: Crazy PO

"It's in the contract they both signed at the purchase of the house ANYTHING LEFT at the house after the close becomes the property of the new owner. The contract they signed IS a legal and binding contract. No need to do anything else."

This is why it is NOT found property.

In its most basic form the deed grants the land and ALL IMPROVEMENTS on the land.

EVERYTHING.


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RE: Crazy PO

An idea:

IF you don't want the furniture...can you arrange to have Salvation Army come and pick it up? Tell the PO you've done this. If they want the goods, they can go buy them back cheaply and *everybody* benefits:

You get a tax deduction for the donation.

They get their furniture back.

The Salvation Army makes a profit.


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RE: Crazy PO

Amber... if nothing else, it's Christmas. I find you are acting incredibly selfishly, terribly childishly, grabby, and possibly illegally. It's just wrong. If she wasn't able to pick everything up the first time, then she wasn't, but it's not an excuse for you to play finder's keeper's! It's not your furniture, you did NOT buy it, it was not in the contract and you need get it overwith once and for all. People have all kinds of reasons they can't carry out plans sometimes, perfectly good reasons (for one, getting help with a truck and movers, etc.) and you need to let it go.


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RE: Crazy PO

larke

She wasn't able to pick it up at lest five different times, Not just the first time. And she was the one to make the arrangements to pick them up so how could they not have worked for her schedule? And it is my furniture because as I've clearly stated it Was in the contract that all left behind property would become mine at signing. Maybe you should try reading all the post before you say anything.

chisue
And we are planing on either selling it or donating it if whomever we donate it to can come pick it up. But I defiantly would NEVER donate to the Salvation Army, but that's a whole other topic.


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RE: Crazy PO

Well I still think that if you're just giving it away, for heaven's sake give it to the people who not only paid for it originally, but still want it.


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RE: Crazy PO

WELL, if she tried to allow the original owners to come pick up the furniture on FIVE different occasions, she's done her part and should not have to give them another opportunity to ruin her schedule. She is acting perfectly within the law as per her contract. Furthermore, if the original owners were that concerned with their furniture, they would have made an agreed upon arrangement to pick up the furniture before closing...with that arrangement being written and signed by both parties at closing. Who in the heck is going to just let previous owners come in their home a month after closing and claim something?? As far as I'm concerned, when I assume ownership of a property, what is contained inside is mine (unless otherwise arranged in writing) and I will dispose of what I don't want immediately...after all, my home is not a storage unit for a stranger's belongings. And I would have no problem at all enjoying what someone else left behind if it's not tacky and fits with my taste. I would enjoy it all the more if they screwed with my schedule on FIVE different occasions.

Amber, I don't think you're acting childish or selfish. You've already had to make arrangements on FIVE different occasions for these people and they repeatedly took advantage of your time and schedule. Definitely time to draw the line. I don't know what some of these folks are expecting you to do, but I'm quite sure that if someone tried to continually take advantage of THEIR time they would have an entirely different opinion.

Suggestion if you decide to donate...maybe there is a local family with a need for some furniture. Churches and women's shelters are good places to call and they usually have a team of folks who will pick up the donation.


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RE: Crazy PO

bleigh

Thank you for being one of the few who understand my position. I'm thinking of donating it if no one we know wants it. I thought about seeing if there were any senior homes near us that could use it.


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RE: Crazy PO

Theoretically speaking, if ownership was in dispute (which it clearly isn't), leaving the furniture out on the street, even in good weather, or unilaterally giving the PO "one more chance" to get it, isn't good legal advice. You have an obligation to take due care of someone else's property while it's in your possession, and the PO could file suit claiming you didn't.


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RE: Crazy PO

"You have an obligation to take due care of someone else's property while it's in your possession..."

Except it is NOT "someone else's property" it is the present owner of the houses property, to do with as they see fit.

The present owner gets ALL IMPROVEMENTS on the land at closing.

Anything NOT named and excluded from the sale conveys.

The OP has done far more than required.


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RE: Crazy PO

This thread reminds me of those root beer commercials about "thick headed"


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RE: Crazy PO

I have no idea why you "defiantly" dislike Salvation Army. LOL I just picked that charity because I know they will do pick-ups. Is there a Goodwill near you? Will they transport the furniture? When we moved we gave a lot of things to a church that holds a huge annual "Garage Sale". The church member volunteers carted everything away.


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RE: Crazy PO

The Salvation Army has been a particularly political organization in its practices over the years (not hiring gays and lesbians, not accepting Harry Potter donations, etc.) so it's not some people's cup of tea. But like chisue said, Goodwill is a good alternative, and I'm sure there are lots of other local organizations that would happily take the donation (shelters, etc.)

The PO of our house left a large piece of furniture at our house for a month, but we had a specific agreement put together by the realtors that she had to pick it up within 30 days of closing or it was fair game. A solution to keep in mind for the future...


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RE: Crazy PO

I agree with the "all parties are acting like children" camp.

Legally? Yeah, sounds like the OP has a strong case that the furniture is legally hers.

Morally? Sounds like the OP had a verbal agreement (reinforced by previously scheduled "pick-ups" of the disputed furniture) and now, for one reason or another is (sick of dealing with flakey PO, or being stubborn) is now arbitrarily deciding that the window for allowing the PO to retrieve furniture that was previously understood to still belong to the PO is closed.

Seriously? All this fuss over furniture that the OP has but doesn't want, and that the PO wants but isn't allowed to get.

Send a letter (or at a minimum, an email) that they have one more shot--between the hours of X and X on X date, and failure to remove ALL of their items from the home during that time is the PO's statement that the items now belong to you, to do with as you please.

Why are people so mean? I can imagine the logistics of getting people and a vehicle (trailer?) together in winter weather shortly after selling and moving out of a house during the holidays can be a challenge, to say the least.


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RE: Crazy PO

"PO wants but isn't allowed to get. "

The PO does not want it enough to get off their rear and actually retrieve it.

If it is to inconvenient for them to pick it up it it is not the OPs problem.

They could always charge them storage...


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RE: Crazy PO

Amber, thanks for clarifying the timeline.

My only concern really is if at closing there was again agreement that the items were theirs and would be available to be picked up--even if only verbal--that could land you in small claims court. That might supercede the written document because you agreed to an amendment--but in your state it may instead be that if not written, it didn't happen, no matter how many witnesses to the verbal agreement. That is why I am suggesting making it clear in writing that you have given plenty of opportunity, and this is the last. This is CYA for you, not the seller!

Out of curiosity I went through all the documents from the purchase of my current house and found absolutely nothing in there regarding non-attached personal property, other than the window coverings and appliances which I specifically included in the offer terms. Is language about such personal property now standard (it has been 18 years since I bought this place), or did you have it specifically included in your offer?


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RE: Crazy PO

"Why are people so mean? I can imagine the logistics of getting people and a vehicle (trailer?) together in winter weather shortly after selling and moving out of a house during the holidays can be a challenge, to say the least."

Revamp, Are you serious? When you sell a house, you know you have to move your junk. And when you rent that house to the new buyers for a month prior to closing, you really know it's time to pee or get off the pot. To take 60 days to remove furniture from a property is plain pitiful. I don't call 30 days after closing "shortly". If moving during the holidays is so stressful and difficult, how about putting closing off until the new year? If you can't move your junk, how about not bother selling the house. Either you want to move or not. To expect people to be a long term storage solution for you is inconsiderate and rude. Especially when the new owner has given them 5 attempts to pick up their stuff.


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serious

I am serious.

There obviously was a miscommunication between buyer and seller because the OP stated the following:

"Now we've had the house for about a month and the PO contacts me asking when they can come get the furniture. Well we bought the house as is so anything that was in the house when we signed became ours. So I told her that we are planing to keep the furniture and to please not contact us anymore."

The PO didn't ask if they could please have some furniture that was left behind, they asked when they can come get the furniture (implying that they believed an arrangement had been made for the OP to store the furniture).

Is it unusual to leave furniture you care about in a house you sold and closed on? Yes. I wouldn't do it, but something in this story made the PO think that was an agreeable arrangement.

The OP started this thread partially because she is frustrated at being harassed by the PO. All I'm saying is there is a free and easy way to make that harassment stop--give the PO their stuff. Considering how insistent the OP made the calls and texts sound, I'm not exactly believing that over the past 4 weeks 5 different meeting times were mutually arranged/scheduled and the PO just didn't show up.

The story just doesn't make sense. This, coupled with what I'm perceiving to be a juvenile and stubborn attitude in the OP's posting is causing me to give the other folks the benefit of the doubt--especially considering the furniture isn't even wanted by the OP.


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RE: Crazy PO

Revamp you have the right idea. Whether or not it's yours legally (the furniture, I mean) is not even the point as you obviously don't care about it yourself Amber. Why would someone choose to take advantage of such a situation by giving away furniture that on many levels belongs to someone who wants it, just because she can? What kind of person does that? Are you so smug, self righteous and nasty that you have no trouble looking in the mirror every day, rather than doing what's actually right? It would be one thing to grab onto the 'legal' route (if it's even actually valid) if you knew for a fact that the old owners were literally bad people, and you had no money at all for furniture yourself (some people are in that boat), and the old owner's had been really awful (vs maybe disorganized and slow) to you when you spoke about their picking up their stuff, but I'm just wondering what ... church? or temple etc. you go to that would think what you're doing is good?


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RE: Crazy PO

"Why are people so mean? I can imagine the logistics of getting people and a vehicle (trailer?) together in winter weather shortly after selling and moving out of a house during the holidays can be a challenge, to say the least."

They chose to sell and move at this time of the year.

I have had a few 'problem' purchasers over the years.
One wanted lessons in how to operate everything in the house (the manuals were left for all the regular kitchen equipment and programmable thermostats and such).

They expected hands on lessons in operating a forced hot water system for heat, when to change filters on the AC system, etc.

When you leave things behind after a sale they are gone
absent something in writing.

Have you ever tried going back to an apartment to retrieve something left behind?

The landlord simply tosses it.

I do not perceive the OP as being anything but irritated over being forced to provide what amounts to free storage for items left.

Make sure the locks have been re-keyed.


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RE: Crazy PO

Landlord better get a set-out order from a jp before s/he "tosses" it.

Every word OP has written sounds like rage & ridicule (even the title, "Crazy PO"), like she wants to punish the people who own the furniture, & so far she absolutely refuses to consider anything else.

which all sounds like the issue is about power & punishment rather than about getting the furniture off the premises.

as far as "donating" it:
you don't get brownie points for "donating" someone else's property, no matter how good the cause.

In fact, if she were to tell any charity or even any used-furniture store owner that someone else claimed to own it, I doubt that they'd pick it up.

If I were in this situation, & if I had accurately represented what has happened so far (ie, first post sounded like sellers had abandoned everything, & it only came out later that they'd been back several times), I'd call & ask what the problem was & try to work around it.

Failing that, I'd speak to an attorney *first* & if s/he said I could do anything in thie universe that I wanted, then I'd probably send the previous owner of the house a certified letter/return receipt requested, saying that I could no longer store the furnituer & that if I got no response within 10 days of the date someone signed for the letter, I was going to set the furniture by the driveway, & that if it was still there 10 days after that, I'd set it at the curb.


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RE: Crazy PO

There is a certain contrariness to responses on this forum that makes me wonder what the responses would have been if the other party had posted here with a fairly similar explanation of the facts:

I sold my house and as a courtesy to the new owner agreed to rent it to her for a month before closing. I left a few pieces of furniture behind, clearly intending to come back for it. But some issues came up and got in the way of my moving the stuff out. Now, a month after closing and two months after I left the house, the new owner is refusing to give me my furniture. Can I sue to get my furniture back?


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forgot to add...

forgot to add:

The absolutely safest thing to do legally is to get the furniture into the possession of the people who sold her the house.


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RE: Crazy PO

The issue is slightly more complex than what you boil it down to, brickeye.

Firstly, it appears as though there was an understanding of some sort to allow the PO to retrieve the furniture at a later time. Without this "agreement", the whole issue wouldn't even really be debatable.

Secondly, Amber didn't toss the extra furniture after closing. (which, again, would end the debate) She still has it.

Thirdly, She stated that she doesn't even want the furniture (had she said that she desired to keep the furniture for any number of reasons, there probably would be a little less debate)

Finally, the attitude just rubs me wrong. I reread all of the OP's posts with a clear mind to see if I was applying attitude where there really wasn't any...but I still came across the same attitude--mean-spirited.

Ultimately with so many grey areas there is no clear "right decision/wrong decision". Amber has to make the best decision for her--if the PO's are truly loony and appeasing them just isn't going to be possible she needs to simply cease all communication with them and do what she chooses with the furniture.

I'm not there, I don't know all the facts...it just seems to me that giving the furniture back is the easiest thing to do and is rising above the circumstances, regardless of who is right and who is wrong.


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RE: Crazy PO

I think I've finally gone to crazy town. Just got right in my little crazy car and driven right on over...why I feel the need to keep reading this, I don't know.

How anyone can read Amber's intentions as being mean, childish, smug, self righteous and nasty is beyond me. Maybe some of you people have exhibited this type of behavior yourselves?? Maybe you've continually taken up someone's time and just dumped all over it?? Perhaps you told someone on five different occasions you would be at their home at a certain time to pick something up and not even show up or call?? WELL, I'VE HAD IT DONE TO ME AND I DON'T LIKE IT!! If you've made me be home on FIVE (READ IT CLEARLY PEOPLE...FIVE) different occasions to pick your junk up and not even bother to show or call then you've lost all right to my time. It was Amber that was home on FIVE different appointments and the PO was the one who failed to show. How some of you CAN'T READ THAT IS BEYOND ME!!

Amber, you clearly stepped in it here.


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RE: Crazy PO

The buyer may well be in the right here, in fact sounds like she is, but so what? Let the people have their furniture back. What difference does it make whether they are flaky, inconsiderate, or had some other reason for not picking the stuff up? Sometimes being legally right has nothing to do with doing the right thing. Sometimes doing the right thing is done at personal inconvenience, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.


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RE: Crazy PO

I think that Amber got off to a bad start here by not giving us all the details, ie., the PO canceled or was a no show on several occasions to pick up the furniture. But I'm not going to hold that against Amber, and thereby declare myself to be on TEAM AMBER.

As far as what graywings scenario from the PO's point of view: "I sold my house and as a courtesy to the new owner agreed to rent it to her for a month before closing. I left a few pieces of furniture behind, clearly intending to come back for it. But some issues came up and got in the way of my moving the stuff out. Now, a month after closing and two months after I left the house, the new owner is refusing to give me my furniture. Can I sue to get my furniture back?"

She left this out: "I made several appointments to pick up the furniture, but other things came up and I texted the new owners at the last minute that I wouldn't be able to make it. But I do still want my furniture back when it's convenient for me to pick it up. I'm not sure when I will be able to get it and want the new owner to store it for me indefinitely. I think that the new owner is being mean and rude to me. What do you think?"


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RE: Crazy PO

"Landlord better get a set-out order from a jp before s/he "tosses" it. "

I have no knowledge of Texas law, but just about everywhere else if you leave it behind after a lease terminates the landlord can do as they wish.

Most of the time it is consequential items with no real value.

Maybe in Texas you call for left over TP and sponges?

Or maybe a torn up armchair requires notice?


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RE: Crazy PO

The point is not whether it's legal (presume it is) for her to keep the stuff... it's whether it's morally right.


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RE: Crazy PO

Real estate could do a few things to ameliorate these situations.
As could the new owner...
Inspect the place, that it is STILL as advertised, clean and meets all of the criteria in the agreements.
If not, no closing, and the PO could be in trouble.
Misplaced trust can be a problem.


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RE: Crazy PO

haha, terriks, you have me laughing out loud at "...and thereby declare myself to be on TEAM AMBER." (at this point, I won't declare either way, I just know what I'd do :-) )

And larke, these are words to live by "The point is not whether it's legal (presume it is) for her to keep the stuff... it's whether it's morally right."


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RE: Crazy PO

At what point is it morally WRONG to continually take advantage of someone's time and effort? Just wondering to those of you who keep pushing morality here...


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RE: Crazy PO

Is is a business transaction.

Contracts are written to define all the players parts and rules.

Morality has nothing to do with it.

Time is money, and the PO appears to have abused the attempt at kindness from the new owner.


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RE: Crazy PO

"I have no knowledge of Texas law, but just about everywhere else if you leave it behind after a lease terminates the landlord can do as they wish."

Yet you have extensive & specialized knowledge of the law "just about everywhere else".

OP, be careful about taking legal-sounding advice from an internet forum.


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RE: Crazy PO

No doubt in my mind, Texas "law" can be scary.
This entire discussion is of no value as the PO has seen fit to be not in the equation.
Not all are on the "net", yet.

**************************************************************Posted by graywings (My Page) on Fri, Dec 10, 10 at 16:44

There is a certain contrariness to responses on this forum that makes me wonder what the responses would have been if the other party had posted here with a fairly similar explanation of the facts:
I sold my house and as a courtesy to the new owner agreed to rent it to her for a month before closing. I left a few pieces of furniture behind, clearly intending to come back for it. But some issues came up and got in the way of my moving the stuff out. Now, a month after closing and two months after I left the house, the new owner is refusing to give me my furniture. Can I sue to get my furniture back?**************
We have become a nation of sue-happy SOBs, this is not good...
A lawyer?
A fee of $500 for $500 worth of furniture?
All people should learn to read and write...
In this case, some "softness" from both parties would be good.
In a closed room without outside interference, the PO and the OP should discuss this.
Why has this (apparently) not happened???


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RE: Crazy PO

"Yet you have extensive & specialized knowledge of the law "just about everywhere else". "

There are certain things that are VERY standard in contract law, across all 50 states.

You are alluding to something special about propoerty left abonded in a house after sale.
Care to tell us what iut is?

Or do deeds of conveyance in Texas NOT convey the 'land and all improvements'?

Does a Texas deed say something else?


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RE: Crazy PO

I posted above about what we did when we sold our home. Let me tell about what happened three years prior when my husband and I rented an office.

My husband retired from his full-time job and decided to open a small business. We rented a small 3 room office in a large building. The landlord was having it painted and new capets laid. When the work was completed we went to see the office and found a small, pretty love-seat covered by a sheet. We had arranged to have our office furniture delivered the next day and called the landlord regarding the love-seat.

Landlord did not speak clear English but we understood the love-seat apparently belonged to the previous renter. He said he'd contact her to remove it.

Next day we started moving in our furniture and files. We had a lot of work to set up this office to open for business in 3 days. We kept moving the love-seat around as there was no where to put it.

I called the landlord again the day before we were to start our business. He said he contacted the lady who rented previous and she said she'd come to get the love-seat. I told him we had nowhere to put it. He gave me her phone #. I called her and she said she was too busy to come now but feel free to use it. I told her we had no use for it and to please remove it. She said she'd try to come by the next day.

This went on for a week. We had nowhere to put it. I actually loved the little couch and would have taken it home. It was truly an inconvenience in the office as there was no place to move it out of the way.

I then called her again and told her we would move it out to the lobby where she could get it. I told her I thought it was such a cute couch and if she didn't want it I would take it home. She said I could have it for $500.00 and she bought it in Pottery Barn. I said, no thank you. She demanded I not put it in the lobby and she would try to get it during the next week.

My husband and I finally carried it out to the lobby (heavy) and put it next to a table with magazines.

Two weeks later this woman walked into our office asking for her love-seat. I told her we put it in the lobby. Apparently, someone stole it as it was gone. She demanded we pay $500.00 for the couch. I called the landlord and he said he would speak to her.

Sorry for such a long story, but I was not responsible for her couch, neither was the landlord. He told her she was given 3 weeks to remove it and he would have put it out on the curb if it were him.

Jane


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RE: Crazy PO

Well, that's still not quite the same thing, because you made many efforts to get her to show up, it was just the one piece rather than many, you warned her (along with the LL) that you could not keep it, tho' wanted to take it home and then told her it was being put out. The original poster here only gave the former owner a very few chances to pick up the stuff (and the owner had been asking to do it, vs the one in your note who you had to contact) before becoming nasty and saying too bad it now belonged to her, plus then deciding to give it all to strangers anyway.


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RE: Crazy PO

The OP did give the previous owners multiple chances to pick up the furniture. What's the magic number of chances that they have to give?

Also, there is a big difference between what a landlord can do with a tenant's property and what a buyer can do with property that a seller leaves in a home.


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RE: Crazy PO

"I called the landlord again the day before we were to start our business. He said he contacted the lady who rented previous and she said she'd come to get the love-seat. I told him we had nowhere to put it. He gave me her phone #. I called her and she said she was too busy to come now but feel free to use it. I told her we had no use for it and to please remove it. She said she'd try to come by the next day. "

You should have told the landlord to remove the item immediately, and refused to take possession of the rental space since it was NOT empty.

Reminding him you will NOT be paying rent on a place that does NOT meet the terms of the lease should have gotten his attention VERY quickly.


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RE: Crazy PO

I would love to know how or if the OP has resolved this, but I think she is gone away...Still, now I am curious about this one point, which I hope the rest of you will chime in on.

As I mentioned above, my most recent purchase contract says nothing about personal property, unlike the contract that the OP seems to have had. It is clearly defined, though, that "improvements" that convey must be attached to the house or otherwise permanent--so furniture would not automatically convey if left. As I recall, that it how it was with all 3 of my house purchases in two different states.

So...do any of you have different wording in your contracts that specifically cover personal property, or define "improvements" differently, or did your REA make some kind of arrangements or a separate agreement about furniture and such?

I did buy a few pieces of furniture from the sellers in my second house--it was an estate sale & the daughter didn't want them, but my agent insisted that I had to purchase them--maybe to avoid future problems.


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RE: Crazy PO

We have had contracts in which we hand wrote additional requirements on the contract forms.

We made one offer in which we included "the red and blue stained glass chandelier in dining room" - we didn't want the seller to switch out this really nice chandelier for something schlocky;

In the offer for our current house we wrote into the contract that the offer included the antique wooden swing on the front porch. We also added in 2 stained glass windows which had been made for the living room but which were laying between 2 boards in the basement. We wrote in that both buyer and seller would have the 2 windows appraised at the art glass shop of their choice and that the transfer price would be the average of the 2 appraisals.

The more detail now, the less confusion later. I did learn something from my dad the lawyer.


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RE: Crazy PO

Brickeye,
Here in NC, Landlords can not just throw out someones property at the end of the lease. I do not know the details of what he/she has to do, but it is not as simple as it apparently is in your state.
As far as this poster's question goes, if it was my new home, the furniture would have gone on my burn pile after 5 attempts at giving it back.


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RE: Crazy PO

"Here in NC, Landlords can not just throw out someones property at the end of the lease."

I would really doubt that, or every landlord would be holding onto junk they do not want with no value.

Giving notice might be required before just tossing it, but it is pretty unlikely more than that s required.

"I do not know the details of what he/she has to do..."

As an RE agent I would think you would have some rudimentary knowledge of rentals and the rules and laws.


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RE: Crazy PO

In NC, an owner must notify the tenant that they are holding unclaimed property. They have 10 days to claim it. The owner must keep it in a secure location and can't just take it to the curb. The owner has to make the items available for pickup during normal business hours. You can't just say, "pick it up between 1-2pm on Saturday or else."

In this case, I think the law would get pretty gray because the rental rules are bumping up against the sale rules. The renter is now the owner and the owner now has unclaimed property. There is probably case law that clarifies the situation, but it isn't something you are likely to find online.


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RE: Crazy PO

Brickeye wrote:
"As an RE agent I would think you would have some rudimentary knowledge of rentals and the rules and laws."

I just gave you the rudimentary knowledge of rentals by telling you that landlords can not just toss out a renter's property. I do not know the details because I am a real estate agent and not licensed for property management. I make my living by dealing with buyers and sellers, not renters. Like Sylviatexas stated, you incorrectly assumed that all states are the same when it comes to landlord/tenant laws.


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RE: Crazy PO

Amber, was this case ever settled?
I have left property behind and it was never a problem for the new owner.
And, I have been the recipient of property left behind, again, no problem.
Extremism creates problems.
This, both the buyer and seller, must think about.
As to the love seat in the foyer, or hallway, how do we know that the OO(orgiinal owner) did not see it there and simply take it???


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RE: Crazy PO

"Like Sylviatexas stated, you incorrectly assumed that all states are the same when it comes to landlord/tenant laws. "

I assumed no such thing, and I really doubt that personal property left behind at the termination of a lease in NC requires any significant Action by the landlord to return it.

Are hangers covered?

A roll of TP in the bathroom?

How about a roll paper towels in the kitchen?

A tire swing?

A child swing set?

It reeks of BS.


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RE: Crazy PO

brickeyee, LL's in most all states have some sort of legal obligation to make sure the tenants have opportunity to retrieve their personal belongings after vacating a rental. You'd think when people move they should have the sense to take everything, but it doesn't always happen. Unfortunately LL's have to store those belongings and keep them safe until the tenants have been notified and the legally set amount of time has passed (I think most states it's less than 30 days). My cousin had a tenant a few years ago who left a car behind. She had to file a report with the police, give notice to the tenant and wait 30 days before it was considered abandoned property. The guy never showed and she had it towed 31 days later. Pain in the behind. Anyway, I'm sure things like TP and paper towels aren't covered...probably just things of value. Swing sets might be a problem especially if they're wooden and/or cemented in. Some leases can have a clause stating that any added structures must remain with the property if the LL chooses.


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RE: Crazy PO

"LL's in most all states have some sort of legal obligation to make sure the tenants have opportunity to retrieve their personal belongings after vacating a rental. "

Not in any of the 6 states I have properties.

you leave it, it's gone.

Sounds like a good way to get free storage.

Do I need to save the hangers?


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RE: Crazy PO

It's interesting how the OP's early statement
"we bought the house as is so anything that was in the house when we signed became ours"
after some criticism morphed into
"since we have in the contract that any personal items left in the property at closing will become mine she really doesn't have any legal rights to it."
I wonder how Judge Judy would look at that convenient change of facts.

I'm not unsympathetic to the OP.
When I was landlording, I had similar problems. Tenants left with no forwarding address or phone number, leaving goods in the houses. I put the items on the porch or in the garage and after a month I'd call Sally Ann or equivalent; a car I had towed to impound. A couple of times the tenants came back incensed their desks etc. were gone.
My lawyer said next time, document your efforts to reach them. A number of jurisdictions have laws on abandoned property. For instance, see here, for Oregon's.

I've since done Powers of Sale. Talk about irritating. Even though you've got someone who hasn't paid their mortgage in a year, in my jurisdiction you have to move, safely store and insure their junk for three months to be clear of liability.
(BTW, furniture is not an "improvement to land." It is chattel.)

It's always interesting how people take to the keyboard to rail on line but can't take time to Google up info from government or legal sites.
When you buy a house, it's not just "finders keepers." Even if you really, really like what you've found and you detest the POs.


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RE: Crazy PO

In Virginia, I believe the opportunity to retrieve property from a rental after vacating is 24 hours. But there are references to 7 days notice if the tenant abandons the residence or 10 days notice or even 30 days notice for other situations like death or emergency.


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RE: Crazy PO

Regarding the loveseat, the LL told us the previous renter left over a year ago. The office space had been vacant and he was trying to rent it. That's where we came in. He did contact her numerous times and gave me her phone #. I called her repeatedly because the couch was in the way.

Nice loveseat, but her loss.

Jane


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RE: Crazy PO

Brickeye,
What 6 states are you speaking of?


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RE: Crazy PO

I haven't read all the new post as when I was last on here there were only about 40 post... But we did decide to give the PO One last chance to get the furniture after hearing that she was now harassing our realtor about the furniture (the realtor told us not to worry about it and keep the furniture). But we thought enough was enough we couldn't have her harassing other people because of our decision. So her brother ended up picking up the furniture. And the funny part is when her brother was moving the furniture him and his buddy were basically just throwing it around and letting it fall in the slush outside. When my boyfriend offered to help move the furniture so it didn't get ruined in the snow the PO brother said it "doesn't matter if it gets ruined. She doesn't want the furniture she just doesn't want anyone else to have it either" and "I have no idea what we're going to to with it" He also was upset because the PO had told him that the furniture wasn't heavy and was going to be easy to move, which it most defiantly was not.


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RE: Crazy PO

You can't win sometimes, but at least you no longer have defiant furniture.


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RE: Crazy PO

and that's all from the guy who showed up to move the furniture, *not* from the furniture's owner.

Having a brother my own self, I can tell you that showing up weeks or months after he was supposed to do it & then bad-mouthing his sister & throwning her furniture around does not mean that he's being a "good guy".

As I have learned from disappointing experience, had it been my brother been picking up my furniture, he likely would have thrown it around in the snow & beeched & bad-mouthed me, too.

As Larke says, at least you no longer have defiant furniture!


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RE: Crazy PO

I appreciate your coming back and giving us the end of the story!


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RE: Crazy PO

I agree - thanks for telling us the end.


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RE: Crazy PO

Amber--thanks for the update, I was concerned we weren't going to hear from you again.

Kudos to you for dealing with such a pain-in-the-rear PO. I'm glad to hear the whole fiasco is over with and that you took the high road--even though it sounds like it required the patience of a saint!


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