If the CMA price was 375k, just because it's an FSBO doesn't mean they will go any lower than if they were using a broker. They went FSBO in the first place to make more money, not make the same as with a broker. It also means their 390k is too high, but an offer of 360k with a CMA of 375k is totally reasonable. I don't blame them for waiting if they don't have to sell now. However, they made the mistake of not listing at the CMA price and being greedy.

In this year, all other comparable properties ( similar SQ and appraisal value) were all sold around or below county appraisal values, with agent involved. Also there were serveral forclosures and short sales, sold over $50k lower than appraisal value. For this particular properties, its county appraisal value is $375k. So without agent invloved, do you think that the reasonable offer can be lower than 360k? Thanks.

The value of a property has nothing to do with having an agent involved or not. If the value is 375K then the value is 375K with our without an agent.

The owners wants to save the money and are willing to do the work to get their property sold instead of paying somebody to do it for them. Doesn't diminish the value at all.

Sellers are not obligated to counter at all. If they don't want to accept your offer, they are free to turn it down cold. They don't even have to respond formally to your offer, although most will out of courtesy.

I have both declined to counter offers and had sellers decline my offers with out a counter. It's not a big deal. You are free to make another offer, or you can just move on. You can even make another offer at the same price as before. Sometimes that isn't a bad move if the property hasn't sold after being on the market awhile. It costs nothing to try.

I need to get one thing clear. This property's listing was just expired and is not FSBO yet. Just the seller contacted us personally. When the property was on the market, we had met seller's agent and she agreed to give us 3% back from final deal because we did not have an buyer agent. Since this property's listing price was high, we decided to wait for a while. Based on the listed price, net of 6%, the seller would get no more than 366k, should be lesser based on current market situation. If we offer close to this number, will the seller possiblly counter back? We would not like to pay 366k or more than that, since it would be no different than buying with agent invloved. Do not know what the seller's bottom line is.

I need to get one thing clear. This property's listing was just expired and is not FSBO yet. Just the seller contacted us personally.

So the sellers are trying to do an end run around their agent and cut them out of the deal? Sounds like some real (un)ethical people. I would be wary of them. If they do sell to you they will likely be legally obligated to pay their agent a commission.

If you saw the house via their agent, that agent is going to get a cut if you buy it anytime in the near future. Their contract assuredly has a provision to cover this kind of side deal.

To the OP - you are trying to lowball these people. That is fine. Sometimes it works if the seller is desperate to sell. You have found someone who is not desperate to sell and they aren't going to accept your lowball offer. If the house is worth 375k, you should expect to pay somewhere around 375k. If you aren't interested in the property at that price, you should move on. There are other sellers out there who are desperate and who will be willing to sell their home for less than it is worth.

We would not like to pay 366k or more than that, since it would be no different than buying with agent invloved.

Which part do you not get. The value does not depend on having an agent involved or not. However, since you've already talked to their current agent - she/he will be getting the commission anyways. It is unethical to do otherwise on your part and seller's part it is likely a breech of contract if it happens within 6 months of listing agreement ending.

I'm somewhat with Lyfia on this one. As someone who is kind of doing FSBO now. I'm doing it for the money. My money, not yours.

I'm going to take a little discount on the house doing this, but I'm not doing this and giving 100% of the commission away. 1) FSBO is more work 2) it takes longer.

Buyer gets a little something, but ultimately if I'm not getting the lionshare of the reward going FSBO its just a waste of time.

Also, my realtor is quoting me 4% commission, so $390 is really $375.

If the house is worth 375K, then thats the number. if its worth 350K and they haven't come to terms with that, thats their problem. If its worth 375K and you weant to get it for $350K that may be wishful thinking.

Thanks for everyone's help. It was our first time experience to deal with such situation and really appreciate all your comments which we did not know about. Without agent around, not really get better deal. We would prefer to use an agent. Now the seller said that they "probably will wait for a while", do you think that they really do not want to sell the house? We both like this property. Any good idea? What should we do next?

If you are willing to make a market value offer on the house, go ahead and do that. A house doesn't need to be "on the market" for you to offer to buy it. The worst they can say is no.

You really have to toss the "FSBO Discount" idea out though. If you want to put in low bids on a house and try to get a deal, that is a perfectly legitimate strategy whether they have an agent or not. That is a very quick way to find out how motivated someone is to sell. However, once the low bid is rejected, you need to realize that your seller isn't all that motivated to sell and react accordingly. If you really want the house, offer a fair price. If you don't get a response on a fair offer, then it is time to move on.

Re: the listing agent. That isn't really your problem. The agent has a signed contract with the seller. If the seller wants to violate the contract, then they open themselves up to lawsuits. Of course, if you had a buyers agent at the time you saw the house, then you are opening yourself up to lawsuits as well.

It sounds like you really would benefit from having an agent represent you.

I wish you the best.

Ok, it just sunk in. The sellers say they are not interested in selling at the present time, but they contacted you to see if you are interested. I suspect they'll be willing to sell in 180 days (or however long their contract states with their previous agent). Perhaps they are just getting their ducks lined up in a row so they'll have prospective clients when they can legally sell without sharing their profits with an agent. I have heard of other people who expect a buyer to wait for MONTHS. They could be one of them. As for their house appreciating and them getting more then? Yes, it would if they had no fees to pay. Sort of a euphemistic way to phrase it.

After we received their email that they said our offer was too low and they wanted to wait, we followed up and asked how much they want to sell because we are willing to increase our offer. But no response from them after then.

I gotta say email is a bad way to negotiate price.

Start looking for another place with an agent to protect you.

I meant to say email is a bad way to negotiate any house purchase, not just the price.
Did you write out all the other terms in your email?

It was very brief and polite email with 3 or 4 sentences. Only asked how much they are willing to sell and check if it is the case that there is no agent involved. We all have bad feeling with no response. After this experience, now we decide not dealing with FSBO seller directly any more. Just as mkiv808 said, this seller is being greedy. They would not get any better deal if putting the house back on market. There was another property beside this one was sold with 350k with agent after over a year, the starting price was $419k FSBO.

dream2009: It is possible that your last email to them got caught in SPAM and maybe they didn't see it.

Or possibly they are afraid to put too much in email, because of the situation with the agent and they know they have to wait.

I think you really want this house and should discuss further with them, probably in person or via phone. Just be real professional and don't get emotional.

Also realize that their agent gave you a real, real good deal with the 3% back to you. personally, I would go through their agent again and up the offer price, or if you want, discuss personally with them and also up the price but you might have a legal situation, though actually, that is their legal situation, not yours, since you never offerred commision to the agent, they did.

They said they wanted to wait because they were basically rejecting your offer and basically meant they will wait for a better offer. Also I am sure part of the wait is due to the agent situation.

Don't even expect 6% off of a FSBO, just because it is a FSBO. However, you MIGHT get up to 3% off immediately(just because FSBO) if the FSBO is giving 3% commission to agents. But to be fair, FSBOs should get to save the "listing agent" commission for themselves, since they are doing the job of the listing agent.

I think you love this home and should go further on it, and you simply made an offer that was slightly too low and it made the seller think that you are fishing for a steal and not worth their time. It was very dumb on their part not to answer your email, but it could be that they didn't get it or are afraid to put it in writing or possibly they are stalling because they know you are interested and it is part of the negotiation game.

Please don't give up on all FSBOs - this will penalize you, since your perfect home could possibly be a FSBO.

Realize that sellers that are represented by agents also don't counter-offer in situations when they feel lowballed. This is just part of buying/selling, and has nothing to do with FSBO versus agent-represented.

Your logic is that if the seller got CMA price from some other buyer.. they would have netted about what you are offering... But you cannot control the seller's logic altough there is a very good chance they evenutally net less than you are offering. One thing to point out is that the seller probably owes the full commision to the listing agent for 90 days (or 180 days) after the agreement expires. This protects the agent from having the seller to make a side deal during the listing period only to go to contract without agent days after the listing expires.

But your expectation that you will personally net the entire "savings" of a commission is not seller's greed. More reasonable is you attempt to get the house you like for price you think is acceptable to you... If your goal is only a tremendous deal this will limit the properties you can ever get.

UPDATE - The seller called me today that they do have a binding agreement, 180 days, with the agent after their listing was expired. And they were also given a notice from the agent that seller is obligated to pay 6% commission to that agent if we buy their house in 6 months. The seller couples were very supprised about this and nobody told them about 180 days grace period, even the agent when they signed the contact with her.

The seller also mentioned that they would like to reduce the price to $380k when they relist the proeprty through a new agent later on. They want to wait after holiday season. I understand that seller is obligated to pay the old agent commission if we deal privately. Now if the proerpty is listed by a new agent, do we still have to deal through the old agent and the seller is obligated to pay commissions to both agents? I am confused. Thanks to all professionals for your help and HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

Now if the proerpty is listed by a new agent, do we still have to deal through the old agent and the seller is obligated to pay commissions to both agents?

No, the seller will no longer be obligated to pay commission to their first agent if they relist with another.

Can anyone tell me what cost incurred for closing? For the example, if the contract price is 250k, which part costs seller pay and which parts cost buyer need to pay? How much would be? Thanks.

Traditionally the buyer pays most of what we call closing costs. State or local laws may affect exactly what and how much. Unless you have negotiated with the selling party, you can expect to cover them yourself.

It's becoming more commonplace in this buyer's market for the selling party to contribute to them to help move their homes, but it wasn't always like that, and is not required. In fact, I sold some property right at the start of the housing slump and suggested to the realtor that I'd be willing to cover a good share of the closing costs. She was shocked. LOL. I'll bet she is getting used to that by now.

Your closing costs can't be determined by a figure automatically, because they'd be dependent on the fees you pay for obtaining a mortgage, homeowner's insurance coverage if you have to mortgage, and various other misc.items like fees like to register a title, title searches, etc.

Here's a link you might find helpful.

Here is a link that might be useful: closing costs

dream2009: You are still doing ok if you go through the original realtor that showed you the place, since she told you she would rebate you the 3%. So basically, the buyer gets to see the 3%(that you get back) in the sales price, but then the seller pays the 6% commission as a separate line item. Then you get the 3% back. It is actually a win-win for you and the seller. The agent is very generous, and I think, should be rewarded with the sale. Many/most agents would not do this. This is basically a 3%gift to you and you are real, real lucky to get this offer.

As far as closing costs - it depends on state/municipality. If your area has title companies that do closing, you should contact one of them for an estimate of total closing costs if you buy it. They will be glad to do this in most cases, as you are more likely to choose them for closing. In fact, the agent that showed you the home should be able to help you get this estimate also.

If the seller pays owners title insurance(lenders require this), it could get a bit pricey, but it all depends on your area.

Also - when/if you get a loan, shop around and find one with 0 points and NO origination fee if at all possible. This will save on closing costs.

Yes, the original listing agent (Agent A) was extremely generous, offering to help the buyer for nothing when she was the listing agent.

Once the house is listed with another agent, though, (Agent B), Agent A would be a Buyer's Agent & would not get anything other than the amount or percentage that Agent B offers in her MLS listing.

I doubt that Agent A, or any agent, will rebate her entire commission to a buyer.

UPDATE - The seller called me today that they do have a binding agreement, 180 days, with the agent after their listing was expired. And they were also given a notice from the agent that seller is obligated to pay 6% commission to that agent if we buy their house in 6 months. The seller couples were very surprised about this and nobody told them about 180 days grace period, even the agent when they signed the contact with her.

Be careful with this seller, they signed a binding agreement, and are now surprised that the agent didn't tell them about it,
Do they not read contracts before signing them?
Then look for someone to blame...

I forgot to mention one thing related with 3% commission back from seller's agent. She had put condition on it. We have to use her as our seller agent to seller our home. Otherwise, we are not able to get it.

sylviatexas, the seller's agent A had 6% comminsion under the contract.
There is one thing I am confused. Why agent A ( the seller's original agent) become the buyer(us) agent when the house is relisted by a new agent B? As walk in buyer, we did not have any contract, even verbally agreement with agent A.

I don't know that you're under any obligation to use Agent A, sounds like you are not (but if you like her, there's no reason not to work with her).

I was just commenting on the unlikelihood of any agent handling a transaction for no commission at all.

Since you posted additional information, I realize that Agent A would have gotten something for that transaction & for handling your sale...

which sounds more reasonable.

& as cmarlin says, look upon this seller's claims of "surprise" with skepticism & with caution:

The sellers were eager to sell their home to you if they could weasel out of paying the agent what they owed, & now they're "surprised".

Maybe.

or maybe they're just surprised that they got caught.

That is one reason I posted earlier that it sounds like you could benefit from the services of an experienced real estate agent/broker.

I wish you the best.

...keep forgetting to say that declining an offer & issuing an invitation to re-submit is a good way for sellers to get better offers & to keep their property from being tied up in counter-offer status (in case another, better offer comes in).

so it's not necessarily that they sellers are singling you out.

In fact, now that I think of it, it sounds like they know a very great deal about what they're doing.

Move slowly, take care, & don't succumb to the temptation to "outbid" & "win".

I thought it sounded funny too, Sylvia. To say they're not interested in selling at the present time, and then quickly soliciting a sale by calling someone with whom they've already turned down an offer is sort of an oxymoron.

Syvia-I had a buyer pull out of the negotation process early on too. What I learned is that there are lots of people out there looking to steal properties and then there are those that really want YOUR house and are willing to pay market value. You have to wait for the right person. I turned down 3 low ball offers and thought I would never get a solid offer, was told by local realtors I would NEVER sell FSBO in this market, etc. and I DID IT! Hang in there.

There are two houses we are interest in ( for rental investment ).
First one is forclosure type. After we submitted offer to the bank, we met a realtor who sold that forclosure house one year ago and learned why that house went on forclosure. The couple were divorced after half year they moved in. The lady moved out and the gentleman died from a car accident after. Somehow I had uncomfortable and strange feeling every time when we went back to see that house with realtor after I kheard these information.

Second house is regular sale. It is normal one story home. We have no concern about inside. There is a 2 story house behind of it which means no any privacy in its backyard, living room, kitachen area and two bedrooms including master.

The first one is not in good shape since the previous onwer's relative took away some stuff from this house, such as lamp...... Need several thounds to fix messy.It do have some upgrade features.

The second one has perfect and ready to move in condition. The price will be no big difference comparing the first one.

How do you think about these two properties? Which one should we go, or should we not buy such kind of property? Happy Holiday to everyone!!!