There are so many factors involved in the equation it would take a book, or a set of books to lay it out. Part of the equation involves the buyers (or lack of them).

Rents in our little community are higher than mortgage payments for a modest (and modestly priced) home. But those homes still aren't selling with any great speed. A lot of that could hinge around the fact that the local economy pretty much is flat. People aren't unemployed, they are underemployed. These people often have less than good credit, and are scared about making an obligation, even if it's to their advantage. There are others, who are concerned about the mobility or redundancy of their jobs who are also afraid to invest in today's market. Five years ago, they would have just expected to buy then sell quickly and walk away with some profit. I think they are the ones who are "waiting it out" just as much as the people who wish to sell.

Home ownership is very much like having an investment portfolio. Stocks don't always go up and you have your people who buy when it goes down, and those who sell and those who sit tight.

I have two investment properties, my own home, and one I have just acquired through an inheritance. Their value is like a pork belly. Their worth is on paper only at any given point in time. I haven't lost money if the market sags when I sell them. I have lost "potential" profit, that's all. The choice to sell is very individual and up to each owner what kind of chances they want to take.

The up side is, if you sell at a lower price than you would like and then reinvest, you may also be able to buy one for fewer bucks.

springvillegardens,

I agree with you...well, I agree that you should get your house off the market if you don't have to sell now. That will help in reducing inventory.

However, I also believe in free markets based on supply/demand & reject any attempt (no matter how they are veiled) at price fixing which is what you're suggesting. So, I hope you don't shout your 'solution' in a crowded room. (rofl & just kidding)

There have been many attempts over the years to 'control' prices by various individuals, companies, corporations, & governments. Our own government has even tried price controls. They DON'T work. Any good book on economics will explain both the princples & the results.

In our country, you are Blessed with the free choice of either selling your home now within the current market conditions. Or, choosing to hold on to the the idea that your illusionary paper gains were somehow 'real' money that you are entitled to & refuse to sell in today's market. No value is ever real until money changes hands.

You have invested in a fluctuating asset. From your comments, it sounds like you made a bet that your improvements would increase the value of your asset & you lost the bet. Your timing was off. Timing is frequently the make or break in any asset's worth. The world offers you no guarantees of your property's future value. It's really no different than if you'd bought Microsoft stock in 1999-2000. Value is set at a moment in time & no more. Have you ever read a prospectus? Down at the botttom, in fine print (very fine print) is says, "Past performance is no assurance of future performance." Maybe, P&S Agreements should include a similar statement?! lol

And, yes...you are in the 'mad' stage. It will pass.

/tricia

Let me give you another example...

Currently, I own a sizeable amount of shares in a large-cap company. This company is doing well. They have a strong balance sheet. Their product is in demand & will continue to be in demand into the foreseeable future. The company is run by competent management. I am paid an above average quarterly dividend (thank goodness!).

Despite the apparent 'worth' of my asset...the price of this stock has been declining as investors flock to the hot stock 'du jour'.

If I were to sell my shares today, I would take a hard money loss. A month ago, if I sold, I would have realized a nice smile producing gain. Nothing about my stock has changed. There are no material differences in this company today versus September. No material differences are anticipated. In fact, company insiders are buying heavily on the dip.

I'm not bemoaning today's share price because I know that when it reports earnings it will once again catch investor's attention. Right now though, the timing is off if I wished to sell.

I do not carry this asset on our balance sheet at what it was worth on September 17...I carry in at what it's worth today & it doesn't look too pretty. That's life. That's investing in a fluctuating asset. When the stock moves I can either choose to sell or hold. My timing of that decision is critical...sometimes even whether I decide to sell in the morning or just after lunch.

We frequently discuss on this forum whether one's home is an investment. There are potent arguments that can be made for not considering a home as an investment. However, the reality is that for most Americans their home is the largest, single asset they will ever purchase & own. Historically, for most of middle America their homes have been over the long haul wealth building assets. The key though is wording, "over the long haul". Short-term, real estate has ALWAYS been a risky place to park money.

You made this statement, "...put their houses on the market for what they feel their house should sell for according to what the market should bring compared to all the sales that have gone before...". That statement says that you don't understand that real estate prices fluctuate.

They do not now, have never in the past, & will never in the future just appreciate.

Sometimes, people lose money on real estate. Real money not just perceived false equity. That's the risk we all take when we purchase.

The root fault in your thinking is that the value of your home mid-'05 was a price you are entitled to in the future. There's no entitlement in investing. There's only informed, conscious business decision making & balancing of risk. Sometimes, like in life, we win. But, sometimes, we lose & learn from mistakes.

There will be people who make lots of money on this down real estate cycle just like there were lots of people who made money on the upside. It's a good reason to keep some powder dry to take advantage of opportunity when it lands at your feet. It's capitalism.

/tricia

springvillegardens, I agree with you. I am trying to sell my 1983 Honda Civic. I have put in hundreds of hours into polishing it and airbrushing flames on the side. It isn't fair that I can't make my money back after all the time I've spent!
So I will take your idea and price my Civic at $14,999. All the other used car owners should do the same and force the buyers to pay the price we deserve.

Maybe we do our children a disservice by teaching them to "play fair", or "play by the rules" when the real world doesn't work that way. I'm not saying we should tell them "greed is good", but...

I absolutely agree that it is in the best interest of buyers and sellers to sit tight in the current RE market if that is an option.

springvillegardens, that is a great posting which I agree with completely.

Our contract is up in about a month and then we will be off the market. I think more and more sellers will be doing the same until there will be only repoes and fixenupers to buy.

We refuse to lower our price just to be able to sell it. We don't have to sell now, but can wait until the market improves.

So I agree with you that sellers just wait it out.

Well, what about the starter house owner who finds a really good buy on a move-up house put on the market by someone who really needs to sell? In order to buy it, the SHO has to put his/her house on the market and price it realistically so that it will sell.

Does that make the SHO someone who "needs" to sell, or just a move-up buyer taking advantage of a buyer's market? If the latter, what chance do you think there is that this buyer would walk away from a move-up under such favorable financial conditions just to maintain solidarity with the other sellers who withhold their homes from the market so that they can force buyers to pay the prices the sellers think they "deserve?"

If you want to sell your house, do the things you need to do to sell it and price it according to current market conditions, not what you think you need or what you think you deserve. If that means you won't get enough money, then don't put it on the market. But don't forget, there's no way of knowing when prices will rise to the point that you'll get the price you "deserve." If you're willing to wait out the market, you may be in for a long wait.

Or maybe not, Who really know?

Let's see -- we bought our house at the top of the last RE bubble in CA in 1989 and watched the Loma Prieta earthquake knock 25% off RE values statewide when the aerospace industry collapsed in SoCal to complete the picture.

So yeah, we actually did what the OP is suggesting. Instead of flipping the property, we redesigned the floorplan and moved into it. Been here ever since, having weathered the downturn (and gotten two prop tax reassessments DOWNWARDS in 1992 and 1995).

Now, it would take about $550K to buy this house, instead of the $180K we paid. Had we sold it last year it would have gotten $600K.

When we actually do go to sell it - who knows what it will be worth? As Triciae points out, the value fluctuates. It's worth only what other people perceive the value to be - that's the whole lesson of "consider resale when you remodel."

I'd love to be able to look at our stock portfolio and say, OK, you're only going to keep going upwards, NO downwards losses! Believe me, it wasn't fun to lose 26% of the portfolio in the 2000-02 stock market fall. Took us a whole 18 months to get back to even again, which is a long time when you're counting down to retirement in single digit years.

But that's life, isn't it? Risk, gain and loss is all part of it. That's why financial education is important, and one of the reasons it's my biggest 'hot button.' What you don't know CAN hurt you.

I have a novel idea. What if everyone who has their house on the market who doesn't actually need to sell right now, refuses to sell it for a lower price.

This is what happened in our neighborhood immediately after we went on the market.

Nobody wanted to buy, bcs they thought the prices would/should drop. (national news reports about a slowing market)

No seller wanted to drop their prices, bcs they thought there was nothing in our local economy to warrant a drop in prices.

The result: nothing sold. For months.

Even us. Perhaps a mistake, in retrospect. But maybe not, bcs even if we'd lowered our price, few things were selling. Period.

The market is livelier now, and interestingly, an apartment like ours sold on our block for $30k more than we thought we'd get for ours when we were trying to sell. She asked $465k, and got it exactly (we were asking $465k and figuring we'd get an offer for about $430k, which was the last sale--and we got nothing, not even a low-ball)

I agree that it's in the best interests (perhaps) of sellers to sit tight in a droppng market, but maybe not buyers. Buy low, sell high, right? Well, the ultimate is to buy just before the market reaches bottom.

In my neighborhood, that point is past. Prices have steadied and are (apparently) slowly rising.

This just sounds like more sourgrapes from a person who thinks the true market value of their house is unfair. Your posts talk a lot about your feelings. Nobody cares what you "feel" a home purchase is a business transaction. Current market trends and recent comps will dicatate what the true value of your house is. Sure you can stick to your guns and refuse to sell it, but in the end if you are serious about selling you will have to play the game. There will always be people who "have to sell" and in many areas you will be competing with new construction. The whole market isn't going to be "dumbed down" for you and your house. You and catfishman WILL NEVER SELL unless you realize that the market determines the value of your home. I hope you both enjoy your houses becasue from the sound of it you will both be living there for a very very long time. Unless the markets pick up in your area, you will either have to live with thefact that you will never sell your house or that if you refuse to price your house in line with the market you will eventually find yourself in a "race to the bottom".

Sorry, no rainbows and butterflies here. ;)

don't forget the 5$ burger was just 50 cents 5 years ago.

catfishsam,

Please take this in the teaching attitute that is my intention...

There is no such thing as a "repo" house.

A lender can reposses something that's licensed such as a car, boat, or trailer. The term is also used for things you might purchase on an installment plan such as furniture, ra efrigerator, or a television. Not all purchases, however, can be repossessed. For instance, most credit card purchaseses cannot be repossesed.

When speaking about real estate the correct term is 'foreclosure'. If a borrower defaults on his mortgage-backed loan, the lender forecloses & takes title to the property. Today, we have a lot of foreclosures on the market.

It's like gardening. When gardeners speak of different plants they use the Latin names for those plants because it avoids confusion. Using proper legal terms also avoids confusion.

/tricia

I agree completely with NCGUY and not so much with the OP. My husband and I have sold two houses this year. Had to sell No. 1 but not No. 2, but am VERY glad we dropped our prices and got these babies sold. We are much happier people.

You have to do what works for you. And if staying in your house until you get the price you want works for you--go for it. If you really want to sell and move on, well, you're going to have to compromise. That's just reality, plain and simple.

springvillagegardens, I see your point, but controlling prices is difficult.

The advice that you get from people all depends on whether they're looking to buy or sell. It's a lot like the stock market. A few years ago, the "pros" on Wall Street were telling retail investors to beware of Google's IPO price of $85, and to leave it for the pros. (Translation: "Dear retail investor: Don't you dare snatch up GOOG before we do") Sure enough these same "pros" are recommending GOOG at over $600/share. (after all, the big boys are now long GOOG)

If you don't have to sell, then don't, and keep your house away from the vultures.

You know what I've been thinking:

Our OP wrote; "Keep Your Power"

But I remember this as being the hardest in our aborted selling attempt: The seller HAS NO POWER!!!

you cannot make someone want your house. You cannot entice them to bid if they don't want to.

The buyer has only a little power--you can actually place a bid anytime you want. Of course, you can't make them accept it. But you can start the conversation more strongly.

Of course, if the seller doesn't really want to move, then they've got power. But if they do need a bigger place, or have to move....

Feeling powerless in that market was absolutely horrible.

Sounds like sellers should unionize

Seriously, the value of a home is no more, no less than what a willing seller and a willing and ABLE buyer can agree upon. I would also add that a financing institution has to concur. Despite the complexities surrounding a home sale, the value of a home really is that simple.

Speaking of supply and demand...At some point, ABLE buyers may be in short supply and the only way for a seller and buyer to reach agreement may be a lower price.

Sellers who aren't serious should probably hit the showers. The risk is that in a brave, new world of lower values you may not find a buyer who will agree with your price. But, if you can wait for the next cycle, why sell?

Sue,

It wasn't the power that was causing you stress. It was the emotion you allowed yourself to feel. And, you did (and do) have control over that.

Imagine if you were a business owner or part of upper management & every decision you made all day long was going to affect the company's performance, profit, & employees. You'd drop dead if you allowed yourself to feel emotional over every decision. Once the emotion is gone...the decisions, strategies, & options become clearer & easier to implement. Takes some practice.

Women are terrific negotiators. I'm the daughter of a very successful small business owner. I watched my Dad make tough calls for years & learned from him. My older sister & her DH were also small business owners so I had that also as a model. My DH's CEO is a woman. She's the daughter of a Fortune 100 company CEO. Boy, she's one tough cookie. And I've no doubt she learned from her Dad. My DH often teases her by poking a pencil in her arm & asking to see if she bleeds! lol

Anyway, it's not about the power. It's about learning to control your emotions & make them work for you rather than against you.

When I was KO'd by that concrete contractor I was afraid for awhile afterwards. My boss was also afraid for my safety. It happened not in the field where one might expect a confrontation. He KO'd me right at my desk! Anyway, I knew I had to jump right back in the game or I'd forever feel powerless. Fortunately, my boss cooperated & after just a couple months of sending a 'chaperone' along with me...let me go back to normal.

Look in the mirror when you're brushing your teeth tonight...say,

I am woman, hear me roar
In numbers too big to ignore
And I know too much to go back an' pretend
'cause I've heard it all before
And I've been down there on the floor
No one's ever gonna keep me down again

CHORUS

Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to, I can do anything
I am strong (strong)
I am invincible (invincible)
I am woman

You can bend but never break me
'cause it only serves to make me
More determined to achieve my final goal
And I come back even stronger
Not a novice any longer
'cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul

CHORUS

I am woman watch me grow
See me standing toe to toe
As I spread my lovin' arms across the land
But I'm still an embryo
With a long long way to go
Until I make my brother understand

Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to I can face anything
I am strong (strong)
I am invincible (invincible)
I am woman
Oh, I am woman
I am invincible
I am strong

Do that every night. Soon you'll believe. When you do...selling your house will be a cake-walk because you'll be in control from the get-go even in a buyer's market. If you decide that now is not the right time for you to sell it will be because YOU'VE made the decision & not because you feel exploited by the markets.

/tricia

It wasn't the power that was causing you stress. It was the emotion you allowed yourself to feel. And, you did (and do) have control over that.
I agree with this. this is a business transaction think of it as one.
Do not personalize it.

To the OP: Sweetheart, back away from Oprah on the TV and come out with your hands up.

Your little rant is the equivalent of a baby holding its breath until it turns blue.

None of you minded much when house prices were rocketing as a result of fraud, standardless lending and investor greed. It had nothing to do with "fundamentals" in your particular area. Now, because you were greedy and missed the top (come on, confess, you didn't sell in '05 because you believed the hype and thought you'd get even more by waiting), you are angry and blaming people who prudently avoided the mania and are now looking to deploy their capital prudently in the housing market.

I'd suggest some sort of non-housing stress relief. Try kickboxing. It's good for getting out that aggression at the buyers who won't fund your retirement or your next overpriced monument to greed.

"If the builders have to take lower prices then maybe they will slow down their building because they will be making less money and competing with the foreclosure prices and with those who have to sell and must lower their prices. So the builders will have to lower their prices even more or quit building as many homes."

Some builders are taking another route - they are building less expensive (smaller, or with fewer amenities) houses, but are building just as many as always.

Who knows, maybe in your area there isn't much new construction. It has to be at least a consideration for most of us, and in some areas there's more new construction than there are existing homes on the markets.

And asking people to not sell is kind of screwy anyway - except for the tiny percentage of people that are going to go back to renting, those sellers are also buyers as they buy the place that they are going to move into. Sellers aren't the problem - its that these prices need a constant influx of first time homebuyers to support the bottom end of the market, and without them, the bottom falls out of the market.

Doesn't matter if you've "worked on it" (the house) in the last 3 years, or not.

It's all about supply and demand of the real estate market.

Matters not at all whether you've ever paid seller's fees. What matters now is what it takes to sell your house in the current market, if that is what you want to do.

If you don't want to sell it, then pull it off the market.

Your post is filled with emotion. Get rid of it, if you want to sell your house. Your house is real estate, nothing more, nothing less.

I have both both bought and sold a house in this market (last 3 months) so I know what I'm talking about.

Yep, I think that all of those who don't have to sell should pull their homes off the market. And if this bubble bursting follows the normal pattern, we will reach the bottom of this downturn in about five years. Then you can sell at 40% off peak prices, because at the bottom that is what houses will be worth in the bubbly markets. Or you can wait for another 5-10 years for the market to come back up, but of course in inflation-adjusted dollars it still won't be back up to the peak. Given that 2005 prices were double long term values in inflation-adjusted dollars nationwide, it might well be another century until we see such a bubble again.

So, like everyone else on this forum, I'd advise not selling if you don't have to. Just hold onto that home for a few centuries and you'll get that 2005 price in inflation-adjusted dollars.

And while you are at it, you should definitely keep holding those telecom stocks that dropped 10% in early 2001. So what if it dropped another 70%. No need to give in to a bear stock market, you keep your power and refuse to sell until that 2000 price comes back. After everyone else sells their telecom stocks on the cheap, whoever wants to buy telecom stock will have to go through springvillegardens! Go girl!

There is more than one point of view, and we are all entitled to our point of view, and there are many similar housing markets in this country, but just as many that are not similar.

I've noticed a lot of gloom and doom - and is the gloom and doom from those not selling or those that already sold and made a killing in the market? Now wanting those who didn't sell to sell lower so they can snatch up a few more investments at a lower than fair price?

I have also noticed a serious and sad undertones to many of the posts on this forum, and a lot of anger at different points of view, and this is in part why I posted this thread.

I see many folks saying sellers must lower their prices or offer incentive to buyers or they won't sell and this is not always true. It depends upon the individual home, the neighborhood, the competition of other homes on the market, the individual market where their home is located and what type of buyer they are trying to attract to their home and how aggressively the home is marketed. It also depends upon the individual buyer. Some buyers are buying a house strictly for the price, some for the size, some because they fell in love with it, some because they feel it is just the right home for them, in the just right neighborhood, etc. So in each and every house sale, the seller doesn't know the buyer won't pay more than he offered, doesn't know the buyer will pay for his own closing costs, so I just don't want folks to acquiesce when they get an offer.

I just don't want people to sell their homes for less than they actually can get. I don't want folks to feel they have to shell out hard earned money to get someone to buy their home - especially if some are selling for less than they have in their home. I also don't want the naysayers to cause everyone in turn to think they are right and then lower their selling price to give "the greedy" buyers the best deal. Because if sellers are greedy, then the buyers (and investors) are too. And don't think there aren't a lot of investors taking advantage of the low market and driving prices even lower and affecting the bottom line of families who are selling houses because they have to - not just because they are an investment.

It is not just in today's market I am speaking of. I have bought and sold three homes in the last 10 years and in each market, I was told I needed to lower my price and in one I was told I would never sell. Each of my homes sold (two within two months) and for the price I felt (now I say felt, but my feeling is not just a feeling, it is based upon what I have researched the market is willing to bear for the home I am selling) they were worth. The one I was told I would never sell, I had to sell myself as no one believed it would ever sell at my price. I ended up selling it to a local person. So this is part of my point. Sometimes the hype is just that. Sometimes there are still buyers willing to pay what the seller feels is a fair and market value for their home. I have to admit the one I had to sell myself, took quite some doing, but I did sell it.

By the way I don't watch Oprah and I am not greedy, I am actually doing all the work on my house myself and I only want a fair price for it - not a ton of money. And I would have sold it at the top of the market if it had been ready and if other circumstances hadn't prevented me from doing so. And I don't actually have any aggression towards the buyers, its towards those telling the sellers to drop their prices lower and lower and telling the buyers to offer less and less. And homes have skyrocketed in years past when there wasn't standardless lending. I get plenty of stress relief from swinging a hammer, a paint brush and a shovel, so I don't have time for kickboxing. Yes my post is filled full of emotion and it is largely in response to many of the posts I have read here and what I read and hear from the media.

Now if you want to take that Honda Civic and turn it into a street rod with a hopped up engine, then polish it and air brush it, maybe someone will give you your price - but not just for flames and a polish - and not to a Honda Civic (sorry) - maybe a 57 Chevy. I didn't put gold plated faucets in an apartment or a tract home either (actually I didn't put any gold plated anything in, just an analogy). And I am not asking to be reimbursed for my time, but for my actual tangible improvements. But you get my point, you can't overinvest in something that will never appreciate in value and will eventually be worth nothing either. A home is another matter. Homes usually appreciate or if not they remain the same price if bought at a good and fair price and maintained in livable condition, but cars most always depreciate even if they are maintained and drivable - they depreciate no matter what you do to them, unless they are a collector car of some type.

Home buying and selling is an emotional occurence whether some think it is or not. Now if I were selling a rental it might be different, perhaps not. Some of the emotion of selling depends upon how "invested" the seller may be in their "home" not their piece of real estate, the process - how much money they stand to gain or loose and better yet how much money they can afford to loose. If they are selling because they are taking a new job with a 50% increase in salary, then maybe they can afford to lower their price; or if they have a retirement they can live on, or if they have several other homes they can sell or many other scenarios. If they are selling because of health reasons and need the money for medical bills, or if they are selling because they lost their job or if they are selling because they can't afford the payments, etc, then maybe they can't afford to lower their price.

Everyone here is not in the same market so we aren't comparing apples to apples either. Some live in a city, some live in the country, some live in the East, some live in the West, some live in condos, some live in single family homes, some are selling rentals, etc. So to say that we all must do what it takes to sell in "this" market isn't correct either.

And I am not advocating price fixing, but to say sellers must lower their prices to sell is, in effect, the same thing - price fixing homes to a lower selling point.

In my area the builders are still building and new subdivisions are going in and new shopping centers, etc. Customs homes are still being built too. Builders are offering incentives to get buyers to buy their homes like swimming pools, etc. And some builders are building more apartments - and those who don't or won't or can't buy can move into the apartments.

All the hype has buyers scared and this has affected the market and the economy negatively. Sure it is in part from improper loans being given, but some of it is in part due to all the negativity about the housing market and the economy.

Bottom line my house is my home, till I move out and till then I love my home - and hopefully if I put it on the market or decide to sell it myself, the person who wants to buy it will consider it their home too, and won't be buying just a house. Part of the market and capitalism is believing in what you are selling and what it is worth, being informed of your market and being persistent and keeping your power. It's paid off in the past for me so why not now - and hopefully for others reading here, too.

groundhogday, you are a hoot, houses and stock are two different things - stock I'd sell in a minute. I don't think houses are going to loose 40% - maybe some will - but others will not. Those that drop 40% are spec and tract homes that were way overpriced to begin with (and some still are overpriced). I also don't think the market will take 5 to 10 years to go back up either. then again which market are we talking about - it all depends upon where it is.

springbillegardens -
Your home improvements don't appreciate over time. New hardwood floors and appliances are old hardward floors and old appliances in five years. Orange shag carpets and olive green electric ranges were valuable upgrades too once apon a time.
Ask whatever amount you want for your house. As a buyer, I'm looking for value and big discounts off the hyperinflated prices of the last 3-4 years. Until then I can rent for half the price of carrying a house, so I have plenty of time.

I've been through plenty of ups and downs in the real estate market over the last 30 years. I'm here to tell you that homes don't always appreciate. If you buy at the top of the market as many people have in the last few years, and you sell on the downswing or bottom of the market, you're gonna lose money. Not everyone makes money on a home and many do lose. The market dictates what a home is worth. Not how much you've put into it, not how much you have to have out of it.

If you don't have to sell, then don't. There are plenty of foreclosures, or people that have to sell, or people that have so much equity because they've owned their home so long. These homes are selling in our area . So until those homes are all gone off the market, you can keep your price as high as you like, it won't move in our market and probably many others around the country.

And even when those homes have gone, a hold out seller still has a problem - appraisals? You know, that number which determines how much the banks will lend your buyer?

What good does it do to hang on the the property now, only to have the value - as perceived by a lender - driven down far lower than any price you could sell at now? Is your house so special that a buyer will pay well above the amount it's appraised at? In a declining market?

With all due respect, there are just so many things about this idea which are dreamland and wishful thinking. Hold out all the hope you wish. Hang on to that house if you wish. But understand what may happen. Anger... nah, the OP hasn't gotten through denial yet

Like I said, it depends upon your individual housing market. Housing prices in my market have gone up from January to August - 2.6 percent. Not as much as last year but still an increase. It is going up even more these past couple of months, due to an increased demand in this area.

I also said it depends upon when you sell your home. I am not advocating keeping a house for 10 years and then saying sell it as updated because it would need another update. But I am also not advocating selling an updated house for the same price or lower than one that is not updated either.

I am saying don't sell your property for less than it is actually worth right now just to sell it if you don't have to - because much of the negativity is making people think they have to sell for less than their market has actually dropped and that is forcing their comps down. Fear is driving the prices not actual worth - if everyone and the media suddenly said the market was doing much better than the first six months of this year, and people kept hearing this and reading it, then people would believe it and then prices would slowly go back up again.

I am just advocating looking at your market to see what your home should actually sell for - not just reduce your home over and over again out of fear.

Negativity breeds contempt. And then house prices start taking on the snowball effect. One reduces, then another reduces and then another and so on.

groundhogday: 'And while you are at it, you should definitely keep holding those telecom stocks that dropped 10% in early 2001. So what if it dropped another 70%. No need to give in to a bear stock market, you keep your power and refuse to sell until that 2000 price comes back. After everyone else sells their telecom stocks on the cheap, whoever wants to buy telecom stock will have to go through springvillegardens! Go girl!'

I just love trolls who come out of the woodwork to register on this forum for the sole purpose of posting sarcastic comments. It's even more amusing when their posts are full of inaccuracies and demonstrate their own lack of financial acumen.

I'm sorry that you're not a savvy investor, but not all of us have been disappointed with our telecom investments. I, for one, have been very pleased with America Movil for example. I have owned it since its inception on 02/13/01. Since that time it has gone up from about $7/share to just under $70/share. Not bad, huh? And I didn't even have to pay a dime for it because it was spun off one of my other telecom holdings, Telefonos de Mexico. And TFONY has performed quite well during this time period as well.

In fact, I've probably made more on my telecom investments since "early 2001" than I have on the appreciation of my house. And given that I live in a so-called bubble market, that's saying something. So, I think that I will take your sarcastic advice and keep holding onto my telecom stocks.

And you and your snarky comments directed toward springvillegardens can go back to your abode under a bridge where trolls belong.

Here is a link that might be useful: America Movil chart

What if everyone who has their house on the market who doesn't actually need to sell right now, refuses to sell it for a lower price. Either the buyers take it at their price or leave it. Let the buyers buy all the excess spec homes, foreclosures, or the fixer uppers for lower prices. So what if those houses aren't quite as appealing as the ones where the sellers won't sell for less, let the real estate agents market those homes. Let the buyers buy the houses that are available for less even if they are less desireable.

Springville - Your plan has a fatal flaw. It leaves out one very important category of seller. The seller with the wonderful home that has to sell...job relocation, age, medical, divorce, marriage. The seller that looked at all the angles and concludes that selling is the best option.

That seller has only one lever to pull - price. Would you have that seller sit unsold even if it hurt them financially to carry the place? One or two of those sellers resets the value for the neighborhood.

A year ago, I was that seller...I really didn't see that I had any choice other than to undercut my stagnant competition. I sold. They didn't. Yeah, my neighbors weren't very happy with me. But should I have taken a financial hit to preserve their property values? Would you?

Truthfully, as a buyer, wouldn't you now consider the higher-priced, unsold homes in that neighborhood overpriced?

If you have a great product that you've aggressively marketed but isn't selling and is costing you $$$ to carry in inventory, isn't price your greatest lever?

Econ 101, Chapter 2 - The Price Elasticity of Demand

Well, after reading through your posts I've decided you should stay on the market afterall. Your house will help others who understand economics to sell in your area. REAs will show your house & when the potential buyers tour & exclaim, "Wow, what a lovely house!", the REA will respond with, "Yes, it's very nice. Now, let's go down the street & see this other house I chose for today's tours. I think after seeing this one...the second house is going to be just what you're looking for. It has all of the same ammenities but is $85K less!"

Yes, stay on the market. If I were selling my home, I'd love to have you (and your attitude) for sale just a couple doors down!

/tricia

tricia- that is exactly what I do....it really makes my job so much easier.

If you have to sell, yes, you have to sell and you have to drop your price to sell - if it doesn't sell - and if you have given it the opportunity to sell at the highest price you think your current market will bear. I have been in that position myself many times in my life, and it is foolish not to drop your price. I have had to drop prices on cars, furniture, houses, and so on and so forth.

But sometimes it is who you are marketing to. If I don't sell my old pickup and live in the city, then if I drop the price I sell it, fine. But if I advertise it in the country where they need an old pickup, I might just sell it for my price. My ad might cost me $40 and I sell it for $500 more than in the city, I kept more of my money even with the cost of the ad (I did). Now if the registration is due and it will cost me more than the $500 then maybe I need to sell it for less in the city.

If I advertise my antique bedroom set in town and live in the country and no one even calls, should I sell it for $500 less. No, how about trying to sell it on Craig's list and see if someone calls to buy it (they did).

Same way with a home, if it doesn't sell and no one comes to look at it, how about making up some flyers and sending them to the next town over to see if someone there might want to buy my house (I did that with previous houses for sale even if they were listed by a real estate. I also filled the flyer box out in front of my house and kept it filled out of my own pocket - my house sold before winter which is what I wanted - I didn't like shoveling 980 shovel fulls of snow to clear my driveway because my snowblower broke). The flyers cost me about $10 and perhaps the stamps cost me about $150, but maybe someone comes and buys my house for $10 or 20k more - no problem, I still came out ahead (hopefully I and others will too). Or put an ad in a different newspaper or a country magazine or something - depending upon what amenities your home has. You never know where a buyer might come from. When the market gets slower, you just have to be more creative so your home is at least known to more people as being for sale.

Yes if you have to sell and it's not selling you have to drop your price or look at whether there may be other reasons why it is not selling - staging, cleaning, some minor fixes it might need. And perhaps have someone with a critical eye give you some feedback about why it is not selling. Lots of sellers think there house is worth more than it might actually be worth and most sellers may not notice some potential flaws in their home that someone else might see. My original post said just that, refuse to drop your price unless you have to sell.

And sometimes there are reasons folks want to sell. Downsize, move closer to relatives, for a job, etc. I realize that, and if at this point in time you want to sell, even if you don't need to sell, then try to sell.

My point is only for folks to look at their market in their particular area - not to think the whole country is in the same boat, not every market is dropping like a rock. My market is going up. So should I sell for less just because everyone says I should? Should I figure out how much my house is worth and list it for $85k less than that and sell in one day? No, I don't think so.

In my market no one has dropped their price. But there are some home I think are overpriced. I thought they were overpriced before the market started to soften - and they haven't sold.

If and when I sell my house as I said before I am not going to price it $85K above everyone else, but I am not going to price it $85k below everyone else either. I am going to price it to sell. And if it doesn't sell I won't leave it on the market for folks to come by for a comparison, I will pull it off the market till it gets a bit more active or there is less inventory. There isn't anyone a couple of doors down from me with a house for sale. It is more like a couple of miles, so if they want to go down there or up there or over there, they are welcome to. I am probably going to sell my house for the same price as those folks are selling their houses. Houses close to me aren't for sale. I live in an area where homes are very different, even those near one another. So it depends upon what the buyer is looking for and which area they want live in and what amenities they want with and surrounding their home.

My market has gone up 2.6 percent - should I sell for less - I don't think so. I should sell for what I can sell for - not for what everyone else wants me to sell for because their area's market has gone down. My home is here not there. I think there have been a couple of other posters that said their markets are going up too. Not all markets in the country are the same.

Not all sellers try to sell their homes for more than the market will bear either. Some actually price them competitively and sell them. Houses are still being sold and people are still buying houses. The market hasn't come to a standstill. Some areas are just a little slower, so folks have to give their homes time to sell - unless of course - you need to move it off the shelf right away - then reduce it for a quick sale and someone will come along for the bargain. If I had the money and needed I home I would want the bargain too - but if I was going to live there - only if I liked it and the neighborhood - I wouldn't buy it just because it was a bargain. I like to choose where I live or where I don't want to live.

Some folks here have read and read my post but have only read what they think they heard - or what they have heard from someone else, or what their preconceived ideas are about the market - not what I said - I said my market is going up and not all markets are the same.

It will be interesting to compare what a real estate person says my home is worth and what I think it is worth. I'm having someone come and look next week, so we shall see. In the meantime, hopefully I have gotten some people to think a little, look at their particular market critically, and not act out of fear or because everyone is saying they must drop their price, and maybe think a little creatively to sell their home if they need to - I have found every little bit helps, and helping to market your own home is sometimes even better then kick boxing because you get your home sold and you don't need the stress reduction as much - you'll get exercise packing and moving.

Hopefully this thread will help some of the folks who never post, but read here - as we've seen there are lots of lurkers.

I've been reading this post since you made it but haven't had time to post to it.. busy week..

I think I know what you are saying, it's the way you said it that it's being taken the way it is. I know you're not for sale yet, and am interested in what happens after you interview agents. Who knows, maybe the price you are thinking is less then what the agents say. Hopefully you did your homework with researching / interviewing agents. I've been watching my market and know the various prices, why one house is more or less, hopefully the buyers do too. Some of the buyers I've spoken to do know what's out there, but none are ready to commit.

Not every area had a large price increase, yet everyone is feeling the effects. I can remember when my dad built his house, the price was more then what someone paid about a year before. The price of building materials went up, thus driving the price of houses up from what I remember. We then have the diesel fuel increase. If you know someone that drives a truck for a living, you hear how they are spending almost double for fuel and while prices are going up for products shipped via truck, in most cases the driver isn't seeing the same increase. Go to the food store, if you used to spend $100 a week, chances are you are spending $150+.

Hubby & I always wanted to move to Springfield Township NJ. It's about 15 minutes from us and one town that actually has land left. I have a friend that is my surrogate mother, she goes to all of the township meetings. On her road is my town's high school, next to it is about 150 acres that my township bought and planned to put another school there. There is also a gas station with a WaWa convenience store next to it, and across from that an old factory that hasn't been occupied since I moved here almost 15 years ago.

After my town bought the property, Springfield Township got nervous. WaWa wanted to buy the old factory, abandon the building they occupy, not only putting a new convenience store but making it a super WaWa with gas pumps; putting the other gas station out of business.

During the meetings at Springfield Township, they decided that they didn't want a lot of traffic and would change how houses would be built. Instead of building lots or a 1 acre minimum, they now wanted 3 acres as a minimum. This didn't last long; they decided to increase the land to 7 acres.

Of course those that held 1 or 3 acre lots would be grandfathered in when it went to 7 acres and of course everyone can guess what it did to not only the price of land, but for people selling houses with smaller lots. I can't tell you how expensive it is there now and how hubby and I will never live there unless something changes. There's a house I have saved, 4 / 1 1/2 on 1.5 acres. It says the value is in the land; as is, of course, a tear down. It's now priced for a quick sale, when I 1st saved it, it was over $300k. I also had land saved, 3 acres was going for close to $400k, you then have to put a house on it.

There was a time when South Jersey was reasonable, now there's only a few towns that 1st time buyers can afford. So yeah, we needed a price correction, some towns more then others.

I don't have a problem paying someone for their house if it meets my needs. I am taking everything into consideration, lot size, bedrooms, house layout and over all condition of the house. If someone updated their house and their price is decent I don't mind paying it if it meets our needs. What I don't agree with is the houses that were cheaply and done quickly; I guess you would say putting lipstick on a pig. Yeah, they bought the house cheap, then went to Home Depot and slapped the cheapest cabinets they could find.

One house in particular that supposedly sold 6 weeks ago (no one's moved in yet) was the biggest pig in my town. The owner was put into an institution, it sat empty for a good year. It was the "concrete block house", someone decided to build a house and did it cheaply. It was the biggest eye-sore around. A flipper came in, put siding on it, ripped out the kitchen, threw the cheapest cabinets & bathroom in and is making a good profit. I don't doubt that if someone does move into it, they will quickly find out the house isn't insulated and will regret buying it. Time will tell how long they will actually live there.

There are houses here similar to mine 4 bedroom, 2 baths; but the prices are all different. What one would think is a comp to my house (L shaped ranch 4/2) sold for $190 in February. From the front the houses look alike until you go inside. There were no pictures of the inside when it was listed; we all know what that means. My new neighbors didn't move in for over 4 months after they bought it, the master was sheet rocked, the MB while it was framed out & rocked, didn't have a toilet, shower or sink. So now what does that do for the price of my house? Do buyers think they can get my larger L shaped ranch for the same price or much cheaper?

What about the
needs some TLC 4/2 across the street from me going for $195k? While it has a new roof and supposedly new windows (I never saw windows being brought in or changed) it does not have curb appeal, has a driveway made of pavers (I guess), no front yard and a backyard that needs work. The 1st house I mentioned probably would have foreclosed, the 2nd needs to be sold to settle an estate. Here we have a decent house, a nice sized yard, new roof, central air, a stand up crawl space, a new furnace, 4 car paved driveway with an extra spot for a boat that also has an electric outlet next to it to charge the batteries; as well as a move in ready house that for some reason I can't get people to come in because from the street, it looks like the other two.

Prices are not going down here. DOM are close to 5 months; if an agent is doing their job, the sellers know they have to be patient. While my town may have some what of a pricing correction, I don't think it's going to be what some buyers think. Sure we have some houses that will go to sheriffs sale, but if a buyer is doing their homework, they will see that some of these houses are not only a handyman's special but also have more owed on them then what we are asking for ours.

We'll have to reduce like Patty is doing and probably get creative; but we are patient and will wait it out some more. Hopefully the buyers that are out there will do their homework, educate themselves and make a decision based on house / value. There has to be someone around that doesn't want to buy a house they can't live in.

My market has gone up 2.6 percent - should I sell for less - I don't think so. I should sell for what I can sell for - not for what everyone else wants me to sell for because their area's market has gone down. My home is here not there. I think there have been a couple of other posters that said their markets are going up too. Not all markets in the country are the same.

If your market is up I really don't understand what this entire thread is about. Nobody is telling you that you should sell your home for under market value. If the market in your area supports the price that you want, Great! Unfortunately, in many markets, sellers are finding lots of competition, and discovering that the only way to move their home is to lower the price. If that is not true in your area why are you ranting about it?

"as I said before I am not going to price it $85K above everyone else, but I am not going to price it $85k below everyone else either."

Uh huh. And when "everyone else" lowers their price, will you lower yours as well or hold your ground? Hold your ground and you'll be above everyone else whether you like it or not. Lower yours and you won't be "keeping your power", whatever the heck that's supposed to mean.

It seems like your post is a plea for everyone else to take a financial hit in the form of extended carrying costs so that you won't have to take a hit in the form of a reduced capital gain.

Did you also plea for people to lower prices when you were a first time homebuyer?

I'm agreeing with terrik's last post. What are you ranting about? What is this thread about?

Sell your house for what it's worth. If your "area" prices are up 2.6 percent, then ask what you want for your house. If you get it, great! If not, then do what you need to do to sell it. But if house prices in your area are up, I'd think you don't need help anyway. Great for you.

In terms of peaks, troughs, and recoveries, I'm sure they vary quite a bit. I bought my current home in a trough. A friend had bought in the same development at the previous peak in 1990; the fall began later that year. Six years later, I bought for $20K less than she and her DH paid. Three years after that (1999) they sold for about $3K less than they bought for. It was 10 years after they bought that the market value returned to their purchase price.

At the more recent peak in 2005, my home was worth about 2.75 times what I bought for. Now it's worth about 2.5 times what I bought for due to a decline in prices. I can't tell when we'll see the bottom of the trough or when it will pick up again. I feel sorry for those who bought in our suburban townhouse community for $410K to $420K in 2005-- I'm thinking it will be a long time before that market value will be seen in our community again.

The reason people are advising others to lower their prices in order sell their houses is because that is what it will take to get their house sold. If the question was how can I get the most money for my house w/ an unlimited amount of time then the answer might be different.

Personally I see lowering your price as a good idea right now. The market is falling and has NO chance of turning around in the next 5 years (based on the fact that affordability is so low) so prices will keep falling year after year. If you don't drop the price by 10% this year you may have to drop it by 20% next year.

I don't really see why it is that big of a concern to you. If you are going to sell your house and buy another house in a bad market then both houses should be down in price so you might have to sell low but you can also buy low.

Chrisdoc, the sell low-buy low logic is correct, but it may not work well for those who don't have cash to bring to the table. If they are upside down on the mortgage, or have no proceeds from which to pay their realtor, and don't have ready cash to cover that, then they are in trouble if the *have* to sell.

That speaks to the importance of equity, doesn't it? When you go to sell, equity is everything. People really go out on a limb when they take on a home where their expenses to maintain it max them out. And, if the market isn't appreciating, then the only equity they are building is what they are putting toward their principle. We all know that after a year of making large payments, you might own the doorknobs.

Equity is the only portion of your home investment you have some liquidity with. How many of you who have purchased homes in the last ten years took out a conventional loan and put at least five percent down on your homes? How many have built up equity and then used it up with a Heloc, or refinanced because you bit off more than you could chew comfortably?

I find it really scary to see the constant ads and billboards urging people to use the equity in their homes for debt consolidation. I also get uncomfortable when I see some of those shows on home improvement channels where an expert comes in to appraise a home's worth so that the owners can feel free to use up that cushion to spend more money on their homes and feel "safe" doing it. If and when they do use it up, their homes revert a more expensive home needing to bring more on the market to just meet the debt.

I am nearing retirement. I have gambled on real estate for a long time now in a modest manner, but the whole goal in the game has always been to increase the equity I have in my property(ies). It has allowed me to work at a job I like, when so many of my friends who are as old or older than I "can't afford to quit" a job they dislike because they keep spending their equity like it were somebody else's money.

Yea - this idea really worked, didn't it. haha

I know this is an old post - I stumbled across it while searching for something else. But, as a seller who NEEDS to sell, has already moved, has had my house on the market for almost a year with not one offer, and who is already listed at below what I owe.... this thread really kind of ticked me off.

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I'm planning to. I find it very interesting in light of what has happened in the housing market over the past two years.

LOL... jen, you are muy bravado to resurrect this thread. ;')

It's amazing how much of the OP's emotional/wishful attitude is still out there in the real world. I treat such sellers with great diplomacy, as they have obviously been "abused" by The Big Bad World... and reserve the blunt talk for the agents. ;')

(I wonder if a seller's RE Agent has ever taken their client over a knee, and given them a SPANKING?... LMAO at the visual!)

I once had a seller give me an earfull about how she felt that REA were purposefully keeping the prices lower in her nieghborhood than the one across the street.
I explained to her that agents can not determine the price of a home, no matter how the agent prices the home...
Here is what happens, and I see it everyday. It is a magical thing to watch.
If an agent prices a home that is worth $100,000, at $125000, either it will not sell at all, or it will sell at $100,000.
If the agent prices the $100,000 home for $75,000, the home will get multiple offers, and the price will get back close to the true value of $100,000. That is how it works in a sellers market and a buyers market.
it is truly magical to watch.

jen, I wondered if you sold your TC's house. I remember you interviewing realtors, getting the house prepared and always wondered if you ever sold. Guess you haven't yet, eh?

I understand what you are saying. However, your argument also applies to local real estate value estimates.
Keep in mind that just because your area has appreciated on average 2.6% does not necessarily mean that your particular property will have appreciated the same - could be more, could be less.

If you have choosen not to place your property for sale at this time based on what you have read or heard in the news, consider that the buyers are doing the same. You will not actually know if your home will sell for what you want until you try. So go for it when your ready. You can always change your mind and not sell.

I wouldn't get too frustrated at this time, you will have enough frustration when the time comes:)
Good Luck to you

I hope the OP priced her property to sell quickly since the market has done nothing but go down further since her Oct. '07 post.

We saw a lot of anger & denial around here on the forum a couple years ago. Some of the old-timers might remember the battering I took for suggesting residential real estate would fall 25%-40%...even daring to hint that condos would fall even more. Now, lenders are bulldozing down new, still under construction homes in SoCA rather than incur the cost to build-out & maintain in hopes of finding a buyer. That's another sign we're either at or very near the bottom...capitulation. I mentioned on another thread recently I thought the worst was behind us...and got skewered. I can't seem to win. When I said..., "LOWER your price & sell NOW!", I was boo'd. Now, I'm saying, "OK, looks like the carnage is about over." Folks have gone all doomsday on me & can't see the forest for the trees. Oh well...

/tricia (who remembers this post very well)

Didn't even realize that this was a resurrected old post. Go figure :)
Triciae - I remember and agreed with your view point back then.
Hopefully, if the OP decided to sell she did well.

triciae, I do think you are too emotionally involved in all this.
Of course people will disagree with your POV, this forum is an exchange of opinions, some agree and some disagree with points made.
I read this forum frequently and really don't think folks here are ganging up on you.
Hope you feel better soon.
Don't take it personal, enjoy your day!

Oh, sorry cmarlin20. I didn't mean for my post to sound like that. I should have added a little smiley face. :)

I was trying to convey I'm finding it interesting how people are reacting from one stage of the cycle to the next. For many, this is the first time they've been homeowners through a full boom/bust cycle. For some in the mid-30s crowd, this has been a real learning experience. Afterall, experience is just what we get when we don't get what we expected, right?

Thanks for the well wishes.

/t