We crossed a house off the list when shopping because the side-load garage didn't have enough clearance to back out and then pull forward to the street. It required a 3-point turn.

I don't know that it would be a deal-breaker for me to have an inconvenience for guests, since typically guests park on the street, not in the driveway anyway.

That would be the last thing I would worry about. I've considered power lines, superfund sites, nuclear reactors--I'm not kidding--to get the house I want in my price range. Most places have an issue. The issue with the house I'm selling is it's a one bathroom. I had to find someone who loved it more than they cared about the one bathroom. If they had more money, they could find this with two bathrooms. But they don't. So it'll probably affect your price. But someone will buy it.

Just curious but are you sure of where the property lines are as in one or both of you had the lots surveyed since moving in and know where the pins are. You aren't going on what the previous owners, neighbors or RE agent told you ?

Before I would worry about selling I'd be worried how to live with a fence that doesn't allow you to open your doors as well as WHY the neighbor felt he/she needed to do it this way.

Was it really on purpose or maybe the fencing company made the mistake and didn't do what the owner asked?

As for resale. As someone else said there's a buyer for every property...........the trick is in matching that house with the right buyer. Sometimes that happens easily, sometimes it's a very long painful process. It's usually pure luck which way it goes.

To answer your question pinkpaula "My question to all of you is, If/when we put our house on the market, despite the fact that it is a charmingly restored Victorian, will the "tunnel" driveway keep buyers from considering our house? Would YOU consider a property with this issue?"

I would not consider a property with this issue. I like to open the doors of my car, all of them, and my truck which has big doors.

It would most definitely be an issue for me. Maybe not for someone who only uses the driver's door of a car.

People who are buying historic homes (generally) expect to find issues with these homes. If they love the house, they'll find a way to work around something like this.

I'm surprised that placing a fence this close to the property line is legal. In our area, all fences must be at least 12" back from the property line.

You may find some people for whom this would be an issue. On the other hand, you may find a buyer who - like the neighbor who put up the fence - likes separation and privacy between their property and the neighbor's.

If the driveway is now a "tunnel", that means you have a fence on YOUR side too, correct? Well, it's going to cost you some money, but all you have to do is reposition your fence by 2 or 3 feet and widen the driveway.

If he built right on the property line, that means anytime he needs to go on your side of the fence to maintain it, he is actually trespassing on your property. He would have to buy an easement off of you to do so. You may be able to use this in your favor.

I would first talk to him and try to be friendly, but firm, and tell him the fence needs to be moved. If that fails, I would then contact a lawyer, have the lawyer write him a letter and tell him he has a choice - purchase a maintenance easement off of you, or move the fence.

good luck

Where I live, we put fences on the property line. We don't know the layout of your property. To me, it seems like you were encroaching on his property prior to the fence. Without seeing the layout of the property, it seems that you could remedy the problem by widening the driveway on your side.

In answer to your actual question, yes, I would have a problem with your driveway if I were to consider buying your house.

Thanks for the feedback.

weedyacres, Guests are infrequent so parking in the street will be ok, but imagine the inconvenience for us everyday, especially if we have to back our cars out. Believe me, it is a challenge not to hit the fence. A relative alerady scraped his rearview mirror on the fence.

LoveInTheHouse, Thanks for the encouragement. Most places DO have an issue, don't they? There are other homes in our neighborhood with exactly the same fencing problem.

carol from ny, We had a professional survey done and pins placed four years ago. The line is correct as far as we know. If you knew the neighbor, you would know why he purposely placed the fence where it is: because he CAN. He never gives an inch; in this case, literally. The fencing company followed his plan; we went out and asked the foreman when they were working. What you say is true, pure luck certainly plays a large part in real estate transactions. We will find out if we ever try to move.

sasafras, I know exactly what you mean.

redcurls, Both doors are affected: The driver's door cannot open due to the fence, and the passenger doors cannot open due to the side of our house.

c9pilot, Thank you! I needed that.

hayden2, I suppose each area has its own ordinances. I like the one your area uses. It would keep this sort of issue from happening.

cas66ragtop, No, we do not have a fence on our side, too. We have the side of our actual HOUSE. I wish it were as simple as moving a fence over a few feet. We would gladly do that, but we can't move our house over. I will look into the maintenance easement laws for our city. I do not want to escalate this into a "fence war" so I must be absolutely positive that we have a legal complaint before I confront the neighbor with any demands. I appreciate the suggestion.

Is any portion of the fence over the line?

Even by a single inch?

If the fence is ON the property line...then doesn't it belong to both of you?

As such, that should give you some rights...as in you don't want the fence on the property line.
This is why most people put the fence some inches in....as it is then entirely on their property...and also allows for maintenance.

Good idea to check into the ordinances on both issues.Even if he has to move it back a few inches, that may at least be enough to allow your to back cars out easily...and may even allow enough room to open a door.

He is in effect making the driveway unusable for it's purpose...so I'm not clear on why this is legal in your town. That is an ordinance that needs to be amended.

IMO, the real issue is

1) the driveway is placed too close to the property line.

2) the driveway is single car and not wide enough.

I realize this is an older home, and possibly it was built before cars existed or in the early days of cars. It is not something that can be changed and was the only option for a driveway, given the lot sizes and placement of the homes.

But the real problem is the size and placement of the driveway, not the neighbor's fence. The neighbor's fence just makes is more obvious.

redcurls, Both doors are affected: The driver's door cannot open due to the fence, and the passenger doors cannot open due to the side of our house.

If so then how do you get into the car to back out of the driveway? Also, once a car parks into the driveway how do the people in the car get out if the doors can't open?

This is a pretty common "old house" issue in cities. Most of the houses were built before everyone had a car. In my neighborhood, most of the houses don't have a driveway at all.

And yes, of course it is a negative. Nobody in their right mind would view it as a positive. However, it is a pretty common negative in urban areas.

However, if you really do live in a historic district, you might want to check out the rules they have. I live in a historic district, and a 5' fence would not be approved. We can have a max of 4ft and there are setback rules from the street to maintain the original look of the neighborhood.

I agree that this may not be that big of an issue with an older home in an older neighborhood. IF many of the other homes in the neighborhood have the same issue. My mother's house is like this. Narrow lot with detached garage at the rear of the property, and a long narrow driveway right next to the house. There is about 2 feet of a planting bed between the house and driveway. I can't remember if the neighbors have a fence, but there is shrubbery there, so you need to be very careful about parking and backing out.

"But the real problem is the size and placement of the driveway, not the neighbor's fence. The neighbor's fence just makes is more obvious. "

If even a fraction of the fence is OVER the line (and if it is 'on the line' that means some of it is likely over) it is a real problem.

In some places putting the fence on the line requires the permission of all involved owners.

I totally agree with sweet tea's comments.

Oops - I didn't see that the drive was between the fence and your house. But you are thinking too negatively.......I see them move houses all the time on TV. These other guys are moving their houses across town - all you need to do is move it a couple feet - it can't be that hard. Haha

Yes you are right to be leery of turning this into a "fence war" - those things can only get worse. It's too bad you didn't say something to your neighbor and convince him to give you a couple feet before it was constructed. It will be a lot harder to make him move it now.

You may need to extend your driveway deeper into the back yard (if you have room) to allow people to park the cars and get out.

The OP said:
"it is within the city ordinance to put a fence on the line. There is no question about his legal right to do so."

So... I agree with the above posters who say the driveway, and not the fence, is the issue.

""it is within the city ordinance to put a fence on the line. There is no question about his legal right to do so." "

You should talk with a local RE attorney.

It is pretty rare to be able to put a fence ON the line without the consent of all parties.

I appreciate all of your comments. As stated in my original post, the placement of the fence is legal where we live---that is not in dispute. Our driveway is placed legally, too. We are able to drive to the garage in the back of the yard and are able to get in and out of the car as well as turn around and drive out facing forward. The issue is that the "tunnel" created by the fence prohibits opening the car doors for the entire length of the house.

I simply wanted to know if a driveway issue like ours would cause a potential buyer to cross our house off their list. Thanks again.

"As stated in my original post, the placement of the fence is legal where we live---that is not in dispute. "

Legal under what ordinance or law?

That does not mean you do not have a civil complaint, just not a criminal complaint.

No one is going to want to purchase ea house with a non-functional driveway.

Get the problem fixed (as much as you can) NOW.

The longer you wait the harder it will become to take any action.

Can you put a driveway on the other side? How about a circular driveway? Just a couple of thoughts.

Would it prevent me from buying a house? Probably not. My house has a long narrow drive and we have to back out all the way. At first, I thought I'd never get used to backing out, but after a while I got used to it and now I don't even think about it.

brickeyee, Your advice is good. We are going to have our property line resurveyed and will check on our right to file any civil complaint. Thanks for the suggestion.

NJAnnRose, There are no other options for a driveway on our narrow lot. If you were willing to come to terms with backing out of your narrow driveway, I'm sure a potential future buyer of our house would, too. A least we can turn around in the area behind our house.

You should see my 80 year old mother back out of her long narrow driveway!

pinkpaula,
Just to be a PITA from a different perspective, if the table was turned, would you have given up a few feet of property so your neighbor can use the drive easier? My guess is that 1 ft would not have made any difference. You would have needed several feet to make a reasonable difference in your driveway. How many more feet of driveway if you drove a hummer/Cadillac escalade versus a Ford Escort? What if you want to get your large RV/boat in and out? You see it just does not end. I am just saying there is no 'reasonable' way to satisfy all situations from the neighbor that may have to 'give a little' for you (or anyone) to drive out nicely. This is why there is a 'property line' and laws regarding that property.

If I were you, I would not be in a state of mind to 'blame' the neighbor for your current difficulties. He is exercising his property rights. I probably have done exactly what he has done. I don't see why I would make my yard any smaller than I need to when I follow and obey the law. The real problem is that you bought a property that did not have an adequate driveway planned.

If you really want to have the access to the driveway in a functional way, you can approach the neighbor and see if you can buy an easement or a tiny fraction of the property from him. He may say yes or he may not. Just food for thought.

The reality is that if he has put the fence on the property line and if that is within in his rights, you are SOL.... Sorry.

Having it surveyed is a good idea for your piece of mind to know where the property line is.

Your first question was, can you sell the property? I would say that it depends. If the house is perfect and this is the only thing that detracts from the house, then probably yes. If the house has many other defects, then it is just another thing that makes the buyer walk. Recently, we saw a house that had a very similar situation. We even made an offer on the house, if that makes you feel better that people will buy houses with inadequate driveways. The garage was unparkable. It was just a storage space due to insufficient driveway. This was in the city where everyone parks on the street and garages are rare things. We ended up not getting the house because the bank did not accept our short sale offer.

kaismom, You are absolutely correct. Before buying in the future, we will try to think ahead for every potential change which might occur---especially on property lines. It is a lesson we will not forget. Hopefully, the next person to own our house won't mind the narrow driveway.

You ask if it is a big deal when going to sell. The answe is relative to the market. In a hot sellers market, it is not that much a big deal. In a market that we are in now, then, yes, it is a very big deal.

So you have a driveway that is functional to get to the garage, but not functional to allow other cars to park in the driveway?

I've lived in similar neighborhoods, where the driveways were added years after the houses were built. In most cases, there's enough room for a driveway for one house and a walkway for the house next door, and not an inch more. I had a driveway that started at the side of my house, and the blacktop ran all the way to the side of the neighbor's house. A chain link fence on the property line separated my driveway from their walkway. The driveway was wide enough to allow the car doors on one side to open, but not both sides--you had to let any passengers out before you pulled into the drive.

My concern would be local parking regulations. In the house I described above, the town prohibited overnight on street parking all year long. So all cars had to be off the street for 7 hours every night. Just about every town in my region has overnight parking bans for the winter months to allow for snow plowing. If the "tunnel" driveway meant that I couldn't have overnight guests because there would be no place for them to park, it would be an issue. If there's enough room in the garage or back yard for an extra car, it wouldn't bother me.

I think i lived in this house! Except we had no garage in the back or turnaround space. It was just a tunnel, made even more so by the overhanging tree limbs. The access to the front door was right there via steps from the porch. So, we turned it into a patio instead of a driveway. We put up lattice to screen the view from the street and put out some lounge chairs and a grill and added lots of potted ferns. It was a great shady nook to relax and read in.

All of the neighbors had similar issues because of the age and composition of the lots, so it wasn't like the problem wasn't a familiar one to anyone house shopping in the neighborhood. Everyone parked on the street, and that could get to be pretty crowded, but it was a great neighborhood, with great neighbors, so we all worked it out. If you live in a similar neighborhood, then resale won't be an issue at all. If you live where your home is the only one with this issue, then yes, it will be an issue for resale. Anytime you have an incurable defect, it's an issue that pricing it well will overcome though.

ncrealestateguy, You are right, which is why we will wait until next Spring to consider listing. I hope the market will improve for everyone ASAP.

camlan, We can park in the street 24/7 so no problem there. We do have enough room to park in the garage as well as a turnaround area in the backyard.

hollysprings, What a great solution to your driveway problem! Yes, many other houses in our neighborhood have driveways just like ours. Thanks for making the potential resale problem sound a little less negative.

Someone mentioned a Hummer or a big SUV. Is there enough room for one of them to fit down your drive? If not, it may eliminate some buyers, which would be a resale problem.

Are you in snow country?

I am having flashbacks of moving the same snow forward over and over working my way along our similar 'tunnel' drive at our last house.

No, I would not buy your house and have to do that again.

Chibimimi, I'm not sure if a Hummer or a large SUV or a large truck could make it without inching along and watching out for the rear view mirrors. I do know that any delivery truck or repair vehicle will definitely have to park in the street and carry tools, materials, etc. to the backyard. Prior to the fence, larger vehicles could stay within our driveway, but their bumpers and mirrors could hang over the area where the fence is now. (Yes, I am aware that the "hang over" area is on the neighbor's side and we were lucky to have had that air space up until now.)

celticmoon, We rarely get snow, but we do experience a few ice storms. If we get fair warning of an approaching ice storm, we will have to move our cars to the street. The "tunnel" is on the shady side of the house, which means any ice accumulation will be there for DAYS since the fence will block any sun. Shoveling snow must have been a real headache! I understand why you would avoid another awkward situation.

If you can pass through the tunnel and arrive at the garage and turn around, it's not that big a deal. I mean, you HAVE a driveway! :) And a garage! And you can probably park in the turnaround if absolutely needed. Plenty of older homes only have on street parking that is bitterly fought over.

Would you happen to have an alley running behind the property? That could solve some issues. I lived in a Foursquare in a historic district that had pretty tight drives because they were all installed after the age of automobiles made it's appearance. We did have a "tradesman alley" running behind the homes, and although there wasn't enough room to be able to create a driveway to pull into from the alley, it did help with the access to the home for furniture and appliances, etc.

*Everything* can be a big deal.

Everything can be overlooked too. You said you can drive it back to the garage, so you (and any future owners) can get the car off the street and get in and out of it. Is there a way for a second vehicle to get into the garage too? (In other words, do you have a two car garage) if so, if someone loves the house, they'll probably overlook that there really is no parking for visitors off the street.

In a seller's market, if someone loves the house, they'll probably overlook it. In a buyer's market, they'll be willing to overlook it, but they will use it as an excuse to try to get you to lower the price. The house we just bought has no garage. Yes, we would like one, but we love the house so much and we liked the price enough that we overlooked it, despite having seen houses at the same price with a garage. We just love the house. I think that's pretty much what happens with most houses. If it feels right, people buy it.

For me, personally? Your situation would not keep me from buying your house if the house felt like home. And I think that's the case with most people. If it doesn't feel right, they'll use it as an excuse to justify why they didn't take it. And if it feels right, they won't care about the issue, they'll work their way around it.

I found myself getting awful nit picky with houses that just didn't feel right, because I didn't know how to otherwise justify not wanting a particular house that seemed to be, in all ways, perfect for us. I don't know why, but I felt that just saying, "This isn't it, I can't explain why, but this just isn't the right house," was wrong of me. I felt I had to have a real excuse.

I think the big issue is, how fast do you want to sell your house? If you're not planning on selling it any time soon, then I wouldn't worry about it, except for the inconvenience it causes you. And in that case, your only choice is either learn to live with it, or sell it.

Your neighbor though, I dunno... it may be his every legal right, but just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. Unless the yards are so tiny that for him to have drawn in the fence a foot or so, would be a serious cut back to his yard.

GreenDesigns, No, we are not fortunate enough to have an alley running behind our property, as some historic homes have. That would solve a lot of problems. But, as you point out, we are lucky to have a driveway and a garage to use. If we did not have a way to turn the cars around behind our house and drive out forward, THAT would drive me crazy. Backing out through a tunnel is NOT my cup of tea. As the days go on, we are finding that not being able to open our car doors while driving the length of our house is not as totally horrible as it seemed at first.

Cindy1961, Thanks for the long reply. Our garage only fits one car. It used to be an old barn that was converted into a garage. If one of our cars is parked in the garage and the other is parked in the backyard turnaround, it does take considerable manuevering to get out. I like what you said: "...if it feels right, [a buyer] won't care about the issue, they'll work their way around it." We are not listed now and are not in a rush, but we will consider selling next Spring if the market improves. I guess I'm just trying to think ahead to consider the effect our "tunnel" will have on buyers. Our neighbor has at least 80 feet from his fence to his house. You're right, he could have built the fence one foot into his yard. He didn't have to so, yes, we are learning to live with the situation.

I think you may need to expand your backyard turnaround/parking area. It will cut into the lawn, or whatever you have back there, but it will make everything infinitely more functional. Perhaps you can expand the turnaround area into an area that would fit two parked cars side-by-side. Then you have room to park one, and still back the other out of the garage. It can be made attractive with walls, shrubbery, pea gravel, etc.

I don't see this as an issue, really. I'm guessing it's a fairly dense neighborhood. Most driveways in our area (Cleveland and surrounding older suburbs) are narrow and blocked in between the house next door and your own house, and only one car width. People either park on the street, park on the driveway before the houses start, or pull all the way back. I never thought of it as an issue. Therefore, if it is in a neighborhood like that, I don't see the problem. It really is typical of houses in urban areas.

Small narrow lots are the reason I don't look at neighnborhoods like this despite all their other positives. Hard because I tend to love the houses.
So for me yes it would be an issue but as others have said, anyone looking is probably willing to make some trade offs.

For me it seems like a bit of a safety issue, possibly getting trapped in your car.

I second the suggestion of trying to buy 4 or 5 feet of your neighbors lot though it doesn't sound like he would be cooperative.

I'm not understanding something. You say the party who built the fence has at least 80 feet from the fence to their house? This isn't exactly what I'd call close urban housing. That's at least two city lots and including the house, would be three. Has to look like Mutt and Jeff with all that land on one side and your tunnel driveway on the other. Was something going on previously that it might be a spite fence?

"Our neighbor has at least 80 feet from his fence to his house. You're right, he could have built the fence one foot into his yard. He didn't have to so, yes, we are learning to live with the situation."

This neighbor sounds like a jerk. He knew what he was doing. If I were selling, I'd accept the offer of someone I suspected could give him a little of his own medicine.

Yet there are posts on this board where the homeowner is encouraged to put the fence as close as possible.....

The house I owned before I married and moved into this one, we had problems to one side with a family who would pasture their horses just a bit over on my ground. They kept encroaching more and more until their horse may as well have been in my corral. I decided to have my lot surveyed to make sure just exactly where the lot lines were.

The surveyor discovered that the gravel drive of the folks on the other side of me was half on my property. I was the 'new kid on the block' and it's amazing how the oldtimer's ground just sort of grows over the years isn't it? LOL

Anyhow, there was no fence erected nor planned to be erected where the drive was located, and we just had our description changed so that our property line moved in a few feet to accomodate them. I don't even know if they even knew we did that for them. Not everybody socks it to other people. It cost me a tenth of an acre......but it maintained a good relationship. That's priceless in the long run.

Where to put the fenceline on property depends on several factors. In another property I owned, I was advised to pull in my fence when I erected it, so that other folks couldn't 'hook on' to my fence without permission. It was common practise there that if one did want to, then they paid you by splitting half the cost of that fenceline. rofl. They hooked on anyway and never asked. I assume they believed that since I had my lot surveyed, where my fence ended was their property, even if it wasn't.

marys1000, On Thanksgiving we had company. Everyone parked on the curb. It seemed unwelcoming to me, but they didn't seem to mind. Since the neighbor's fence has already been built, I'm positive he would not consider selling a few feet, now. (We asked a few years ago, but he declined our offer.)

dreamgarden, Yes, no matter what the issue, not simply the fence placement, he always does what he deems most important to HIM. We have thought about listing this coming spring and hope someone who loves loud dogs, music, and purple exterior paint will purchase our house. Just kidding; we wouldn't want our other neighbors to suffer.

calliope, Yes, the yards now look totally unbalanced. The neighbor's yard is a very large, double lot---unusual in a historic neighborhood. Over a hundred years ago it may have been one of the first houses built on our street. Smaller houses/lots grew up around it. I don't think the fence was a "spite fence"; it was placed, legally, at the property line--exactly where the neighbor wanted it. All of the other houses on our street have very narrow lots. You were generous to accomodate your neighbor's driveway by slightly changing your property line. If our neighbor had been in your situation, he would have built a fence in the middle of the gravel driveway, because he COULD.

Check with the city permit department and see if he pulled a permit. If not, the city will come out (with pleasure) and fine him.

An older thread, but I guess it's been a little slow as it wasn't that far down the list.

Pinkpaula notes that the fence is built in accordance with her area's codes. These regs will vary by city and perhaps neighborhood. In some areas a fence wound need to adhere to a setback to allow for maintenance without trespass onto the neighbors property. In other areas there is a maintenance easement parallel to the property line to allow for this (unlikely in a neighborhood that old).

From the description it sounds like the kind of neighborhood I grew up in. It wasn't uncommon for a driveway to run between two houses or for two drives to run parallel. Most wouldn't allow for opening the car door until you were past the house. Down the block, one neighbor A built a fence on the property line only to realize neighbor B's driveway was too narrow for his pickup truck. Neighbor A ended up taking out a section of the fence in the back, neighbor B would use neighbor A's driveway and cross over.

Will it effect the resale? Since that's what most of the homes in the neighborhood will have to deal with than it shouldn't have a major impact. Your comparable isn't a house on a big lot and a big yard, it's the other houses in the neighborhood that are close together.

The reality of this situation is that if you can't open your car door while in the driveway it's likely that you couldn't have gotten out of your car without trespassing on your neighbor's lot to some degree. With your backyard and garage it sounds like you're fine, but your guests aren't.

I'm with Kaismom on this. If fences are allowed on the property line in that area there's no reason for him not to put it there. He didn't want to sell part of the land, that's his call. The posters that are calling him a jerk are sympathetic to your plight but unrealistic and most would not be inclined to give up their property rights if the situation were reversed.

Seems like you need to get over yourself and park on the street. If you needed a bigger driveway should’ve bought a house with a bigger drive way. ever thought They put up a fence because they don’t like you? Or you too loud? I would reflect