Sounds like trouble and I agree you should keep away. The seller of my house (no realtor involved) wanted to stay at the inspection and it did a psychological number on her. She was able to correct the inspector on one issue though and after she did he agreed with her. However it made her upset enough to ask me nervously if I still wanted to buy the house. In your case it sounds like your buyer would try to convince you to lower the price when the inspection shows that the house is not brand spanking new.

It isn't generally good for buyer & seller to rub elbows prior to closing anyway, &...

this guy sounds like an aggressive person with an agenda, such as wanting to put the seller on the defensive so he can re-negotiate the contract.

Treat him like you would treat asbestos or any other toxic substance:
Stay away from him if you can, & if you can't stay away from him, don't stir him up!

Sorry, my "show his butt" comment is confusing to those not from around my parts...it means he will be a big rear end and unreasonable during the final inspection and demand all kinds of things after the final walk through since it will be empty and he will surely see more little things wrong with it. He seriously wants it PERFECT. I have little tiny flaws on doors and he wants them REPLACED. Crazy! He took 9 days to give us a copy of his demands after his friend's inspection of the house. We just got the report Monday evening and are just now digesting how demanding this guy is. We are still trying to be accommodating but I have a feeling my husband is going to snap any minute and say "that's enough"! We'll see. And, BTW, this is not a house that is complicated. It is a standard house that a child could live in and operate. NOTHING out of the ordinary to explain or anything so that is not the deal here, I promise. Thanks again for all the advice!

I met the seller of the house I bought after closing because I had some specific questions, and he agreed to meet with me because I guess he cared about the house. My questions were regarding how to use the thermostat, sprinkling system, and ID of some of the trees. It did not go beyond that. Unfortunately, he was not very helpful, as he did NOT have any manuals and told me to get them on line (not always possible), and he did not know what some of the trees were. We ended up getting rid of a lot of the trees since we had no info on them and then just replaced them with what we wanted.

He could have told our realtor that he had no manuals and did not know what any of the trees were, and then we would not have needed to meet with him. We never met the people who bought the house in Venice where we lived before, but I have driven by and noticed that they kept all of the trees that we had planted, but then we had Valencia orange, Meyer lemon, Bearss lime, Manilla mango, figs, Queen's palm, floss silk, and some hibiscus. I think they appreciated the fruit trees, as they added an herb and vegetable garden.

I would not have sold my home to someone I could not talk to and tell about the home we created, our gardens, and trees given how much effort we put in over 20 years. Someone who couldnôt talk to me didnt deserve my home. àam glad I got someone who did come to everything with the realtor. My 2 cents.

"He took 9 days to give us a copy of his demands after his friend's inspection of the house."

What do you mean, "his friend"? Was this not a certified home inspector? If not, throw the stuff out and tell him if he wants a home inspection to hire a real inspector!

Now that you've made this scenario clearer, I think I'd just cancel the sale and move on to a reasonable buyer. I did just that a few years ago.

The first contract I signed was an offer from a nit-picky woman who had never bought a house and thought she was entitled to a 'perfect' one. With each demand, I got more and more irritated and when the appraisal came in under sales price, I cancelled the contract. I had the house reappraised (higher value) and sold it to someone who loved it just the way it was.

Different strokes for different folks.

We became friendly with our buyers who had lived in their own home for 50 years but it was about 3 hours away. Their daughter wanted them to move closer to her because they were getting older and she couldn't keep driving down there. Since she is an only child, she will be inheriting this home. So not only did her parents have to like the home, but she had to like it, too. Their Realtor had scouted our home the day after Thanksgiving prior to their coming so we knew we could expect a visit from his customers.

They came almost a half an hour early their first visit on Saturday during a Thanksgiving weekend even before their realtor arrived. We had not even had a chance to crate all our animals and leave. They were in their 80's and sitting in their car and it was in November and cold. So we invited them inside to stay warm. We left when their Realtor arrived.

They came for their second showing the very next day and they were disappointed that we had not stayed there when they came through the house the second time. Their Realtor called us while they were there and we returned so we could speak with them. Their Realtor could not stay as long and we had no problem answering their questions...with him gone. We offered them drinks and they stayed about an hour after he left.

We never thought they would buy our home because it was so big... but they did. And they did so mainly because first they loved our home and also because we were so friendly to them and they liked that we answered their questions. I think they also felt more comfortable buying our home knowing who we were.

Before we moved we left them all the manuals and instructions on where to go to get things serviced. And we are happy to know that they are taking care of it just as we have.

I have received several emails from them asking questions about where to turn on or off certain things or which company I prefered to use for service. I gave them my advice and extra tips. Such as heating up the icemaker line with a dryer if you turn it off to long since the ice freezes up in the line. Or that the French door handle in the back has to be turned a certain way so when it closes the button doesn't hit the moulding. A design issue with the door.

It feels good to know that they are enjoying it as much as we did over the past 30 years. So I guess it just depends on who you are. Some people feel better getting to know the owners.

Yes, HIS FRIEND who is in the construction business. He wanted to wait until the appraisal was here before showing us his list of demands but the appraisal is still not back (due to his lateness in ordering it) so he finally HAD to reveal the list or completely forget about any of his items being addressed since our closing date is September 30. He is basically wanting round 2 at lowering the purchase price. Depending on what the appraisal comes in at will depend on just how demanding he will be in the end. I want what the other people on here talk about...a loving person who wants to take over loving the home we built and cared for, not one that thinks he's getting a good deal and is trying to get an even better deal by nagging me to death. This game is so draining. Hopefully the appraisal will be in soon. He ordered it over a week ago but I hear up to 10 days is pretty normal nowadays. We'll see. I think it all pretty much hinges on that.

tomatofreak... when an appraisal comes back less than the sales price, it is not the option of the seller to continue with the deal or not. It is the buyers decision to make the next move. The buyer still could have gone through with the transaction, even though it did not appraise, and you, as the seller, would have had to perform.

Yours is at least the third buyer I've heard about on forums like this one who had relative or friend in the trades do the inspection, versus a certified professional inspector,

I know that inspectors aren't always "all that", but I've heard enough about how using non-inspectors for the inspection can really throw a wrench in the selling process that I've made a mental note to insist that the buyer for our next home sale use a certified inspector.

I am confused. Did you sign a sale contract that he had put these inspections and appraisals as subjects to sale? If so just ignore him from now on and don't respond to any demands or offers. His only recourse is to pay the price you agreed upon and remove the subjects or shut up and go away.

SCG

The seller probably has an inspection contingency that includes negotiating fixing, or giving a credit for, the defects that were found during the inspection. This is quite common in my area. Another option is inspection contingency without right to re-negotiate.

Exactly, nosoccermom, up here we call contingencies subjects. The seller still isn't required to negotiate or give credit if they don't want to. They can hold fast as I suggested.

Don't do anything and tell your agent you don't want to hear or see anything unless it is required by law you do.

SCG

Yes, per the contract we are supposed to pay for or take care of the first 1,000 in noncosmetic repairs. Like I said, he has a list of things, mostly cosmetic, that he is demanding we fix or compensate him for, but we haven't responded yet because we are going to have an actual licensed inspector give us his opinion this Friday. His friend damaged three things during the inspection and only admitted to one because it was obvious (foot through the ceiling) and had the nerve to put the other two things on his list of things to fix. I AM NOT KIDDING!! (1) fire alarm not working, (2) sliding door lock not latching securely. When we went to check what he was talking about we were blown away. First off, on the alarm, he had pushed in so hard on the button that it was stuck and we know it wasn't that way before because my husband JUST CHECKED ALL THE ALARMS a day or two before. Okay, so maybe it wasn't his heavy handedness that caused it, maybe it was just a sticky button, even though we have NEVER had trouble before and it's working fine now that we've unstuck it and he's not around to stick it again, but on the door lock...the screws that hold the locking mechanism inside the door jam were literally ripped right out of the lock/wall and hanging there, actually causing the door NOT TO EVEN SHUT COMPLETELY, like they jerked on the handle with it locked REALLY hard (I guess to see if it could withstand a burglar?). The door had been like that for three days because we hardly use that door and didn't check it after they left, sitting there basically ajar for days. I'm starting to realize what a patsy I've been. I'll let the appraisal (that he bought) come in, and let my inspector look at his list Friday, and my gut tells me I will want to walk, no RUN from this deal.

What is it that you want your inspector to do for you?

I want my inspector to tell me what is and isn't considered cosmetic. I tried to find a list online but it looks like it varies from state to state so I want a qualified person from my state to tell me what I am responsible for repairing. My realtor seems to just want me to fix anything and everything I can just to appease him but I want to follow the contract to the letter and fix all noncosmetic repairs up to 1000 dollars.

I've seen aggressive people continue to 'negotiate' (blackmail the seller) all the way through closing;
no matter what you do or agree to do, you might still face more demands.

I can see it now (because I've seen it before):
Seller comes in to title company, finds buyer sitting in closer's office grinning like a wolf although he's trying to look embarrassed & ashamed.

Buyer says, "I'm sorry, I'm about $1,500 short;
if you can't help me, it looks like I'm not going to be able to close."

Buyers particularly like to do this when sellers have all their worldly goods on a truck in the title company's parking lot.

You don't have to pay an inspector to find out what's cosmetic & what isn't;
if your responsibility is for up to $1000, tell your Realtor that, upon receipt of a list of non-cosmetic repairs that add up to at least $1000, you'll make a $1000 allowance at closing.

period.

although you might put in a stipulation that you're deducting a certain amount for repairing the door he or his inspector damaged, since you *had* to repair it to protect yourself.

In fact, I'd be tempted to send him a bill for the damage to the door & to the alarm right now, & insist that he pay before I engaged in any further discussions.

The appraisal doesn't have anything to do with repairs.

You might tell your agent that if buyer cannot close on time because he failed to pay for the appraisal in a timely manner, then he's defaulted & you want his earnest money & you want him to go on down the road.

not telling you to do it, don't know if it would make him close, might give him an excuse to get all offended & refuse to close;
it's your house, your risk, your decision.

If it gets to closing, set your appointment early in the morning, as soon as the title company opens (caution the title company & your agent *not* to reveal this to the buyer), go in, sign everything, leave, don't answer your phone, & tell the title company to text you when your check is ready.

I wish you the best!

This post was edited by sylviatexas on Wed, Sep 10, 14 at 19:23

"when an appraisal comes back less than the sales price, it is not the option of the seller to continue with the deal or not. It is the buyers decision to make the next move. The buyer still could have gone through with the transaction, even though it did not appraise, and you, as the seller, would have had to perform."

ncrealestateguy, I don't know how you do things in NC, but that's absolutely not true here. I did it and I'd do it again if the reno house we sold did not come in at price.

planlover, I don't think your realtor is representing you very well - or danged near at all. I would tell all parties I'm done with this transaction. If you can afford to sit still for a while, list it again with another realtor and make sure any contract you sign has enough contingencies to protect you from idiots like your 'buyer' and his accommodating friend inspector. That situation is so corrupt, I think I'd threaten to sue.

I think there's a big 'if' kind of thing in ncreguy's post that may have been missed:

The next move *does* belong to the buyer.

Buyer can ask seller to reduce price,
buyer can accept property & close, if contract isn't contingent on financing that requires that property appraise for a certain amount,
buyer can terminate if contract is contingent on financing that requires that property appraise for a certain amount.

If buyer elects to close *at the contract price*, seller must close or try to negotiate his way out of the contract.

+1 suylviatexas on above posts

The seller can also have a subject (contingency) based on the appraisal. If it is only the buyer that has them on their behalf they can remove them and, as stated by sylviatexas, continue at the contract price at any time they want.

No offence to anyone but I can't for the life of me figure out why someone would put a figure like $1000 on repairs in the contract. Your basically saying your going to drop your price a thousand dollars for items they deem 'not cosmetic' and you can be assured they will try to get close to that value. IMHO, you may as well just knock the $1000 of the price and move forward and be done with it.

SCG

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want to see what it appraises for and if it comes in low I'll try and work more with the buyer fixing more of the cosmetic things he is asking for (he is putting down a large amount of money so it doesn't have to appraise for near as much as it should) and if it comes in high then I will tell him he can fix his own house cosmetically once he moves in, and if he doesn't like it then he can break the contract and lose his earnest money. Of course I will fix all things noncosmetic up to 1000 as the contract states.

And SCG you are absolutely correct...putting that 1000 in repairs in the contract does exactly what you said, it encourages the buyer to find 1000 in repairs to lower the price by 1000. It's like I kind of knew that was going to happen but figured I'd just keep that in mind when I negotiated the price in the first place but now it's getting on my nerves after all. And my husband definitely didn't figure that in. He was in a daze on the day that we finally came to an agreed amount with the buyer. We came down 14,000...I guess he thought it couldn't get any worse. Surprise!

TF - I don't think I'm being represented all that well either. I know she wants to sell the house "for us" but she stands to gain a lot herself once we sell and the fact that she basically is encouraging us to "just fix everything we can" doesn't even make sense. I want to fix what I am legally bound to fix, no more, no less. I'm not in this deal to be a nice guy or a mean guy, I just want to handle this like the business deal that it is...end of story.

Sylvia wrote:
"If buyer elects to close *at the contract price*, seller must close or try to negotiate his way out of the contract."
You are correct Sylvia... this is what I meant.
PlanLover, to determine what is cosmetic and not... ask yourself if the item in question is "performing the function for which it is intended." If yes, then the repair is cosmetic and vice versa. Cancel your inspector and save some money.

Based on his behavior so far, I'd be surprised if buyer was willing to 'work with' you.

I'd be afraid that he'd want the house at the lower appraised value as well as all the repairs he can wring out of you.

Be careful & protect yourself.

I hope it all works out.

planlover- your posts are scaring me! this isn't our forever home due to climate (i hate winter!) but your experience is absolutely nightmarish!
isn't the buyer legally responsible for the damage to your door and where the heck was the real estate agent when these shenanigans were going on?! i have heard of people pocketing items on a showing or open house but damaging your home is a new low.
i may have to live here forever:(

Why do you think the appraisal may come in lower than the sales prices?
I think in the end, it depends who is more interested in the deal going through or who may walk away more easily: the buyer or the seller. And while it's galling, in the long run, 1K more or less may not make that big a difference.

ardcp, most sales go pretty smoothly;
hardly any of them develop into this kind of problem.

but it's good to be prepared.

planlover, how many times has this nitwit been in your house? And was the realtor there every time, including during the 'friend's' inspection when things were damaged? Did you choose the escrow agent or did the realtor or buyer? I think it's time to have one of those come-to-jesus meetings with your realtor. Tell her exactly how you feel, that you want to be repaid by buyer for damages he did, and that you are done with all the buyer harrassment. Let her know in no uncertain terms that she is working for you, not the buyer. You are paying her; it is her job to sell your house, not sell you out.

The nitwit has been here 5 times total and my realtor was there, relaxing in our keeping room while his "friend-inspector" did the inspection. I have since read a lot about inspectors causing damage because they are so rough on things. I think the thing that gets me the most is that he lied about it by not telling us it happened and then actually had the nerve to put the items on his list of demands. Next time I would tell my realtor to actually BE THERE during the inspection and not just hanging out while they are doing it.

The escrow agent...is that who holds the escrow money? I'm sorry to be a dope but I don't really know. The escrow money is at our realtor's office. I think the only part of the job she is worried about is selling the house, period, end of story, and she is ready to kiss this guy's rear and make us do it too in order to accomplish that goal. Problem is, I don't think he will ever be satisfied. No matter what, I think he'll always want more. The only thing he might react to is a very high appraisal. I cannot wait for it to come in. I'm dying to know who is going to have to eat crow, him or us.

i am a lender with 30+ years of experience and tell you to trust your gut, the people who are telling you to fire "your" agent are absolutely correct, but not while under contract. I suggest you talk with their broker/manager about this nightmare
you do need to read the contract and see what it says as far as the buyer not closing on time -9/30, correct? if the home appraises lower you can refuse to lower your price for this buyer and that may end it. whatever you do, do not sign any extensions of this close date.

"if the home appraises lower you can refuse to lower your price for this buyer and that may end it. whatever you do, do not sign any extensions of this close date."

Thank you, gottagrowthings, for some common sense. Nobody should feel they have to give their house away because an appraisal doesn't measure up.

As a buyer, I have never had the seller's agent present during an inspection.
It may be hard, but I'd try not to get too emotional about this and not jeopardize a sale over what may be a trivial amount in the long run. It's a business transaction. However, I'd also not be a push-over.
Do you know how motivated this buyer is? Would he walk away? And how hard would it be to start over with another buyer? Would you sell quickly for more than now?

I was super emotional the day after I received the inspection list but I have since calmed down and I do remind myself that it is just business. I want to follow the contract but not be taken advantage of.

I have a pretty big house (almost 3700 sq ft) built in a neighborhood of mainly a little older homes. It is about 90% homes built in the 80s and 90s and 10% built in the 2000s. Mine is one of the newer ones. We have about 2 to 3 houses sell per year in our neighborhood and haven't had one of the newer ones sell in years so all we have are comps of the older homes which have sold recently, which have all been very dated in style and decor. My realtor is confident in the appraisal coming in high but who knows. I'm pretty anxious about it. We are going to pour over our contract tomorrow. I will not worry about the inspector seeing my house. I think I can figure out what functions and doesn't function without a professional LOL Thanks ncrealestateguy

nosoccermom - I think it's pretty normal for listing agents to be at the home inspections around my area. At least in all the homes I've been involved with. I'm sure that varies regionally, like everything else in real estate.

planlover,
it sounds like you have it under control :) Just stick to your plan not to meet the buyer --- if possible, I wouldn't even be at the closing with him. Sign your papers first, disappear, and then have him sign the papers.
It doesn't sound like the request for a meeting would be friendly and mutually beneficial. He's just trying to push for as much as possible. That's why you pay a realtor to handle these kind of things.
I'd probably ask that your realtor is along for the final walk through --- if that's acceptable in your area. This may be another possibility for the buyer to make additional last-minute demands.

"Nobody should feel they have to give their house away because an appraisal doesn't measure up."

If the buyer is getting a mortgage, the appraisal will determine how much the bank will lend him. The appraisal is meant to be an independent assessment of the home's condition, style, size, location and market conditions. Contrary to popular belief, the appraisal doesn't represent what anyone thinks the house is worth. The appraisal is really obtained to let the mortgage holder know amount the house could be sold for if the buyer reneges in payment and the house is foreclosed. You don't have to lower your price to the appraised amount, but you would probably lose the sale. And "the sale fell through because the house didn't appraise" is a phrase that may deter future buyers from looking or agents from showing.

the big problem with appraisals is if they are done by an idiot then your appraisal could be very off.
we had an appraisal done by a supposed professional when we refinanced and it was way low because he was comparing my 4bedroom house to 3 bedroom homes with square footage that was sort of close. the difference in cost of a 3 vs 4 bedroom home is quite a bit. had we been selling, this yahoo would have done us in.

Somewhere up above, I referenced selling a house that was appraised several thousand below sales price. The realtor and I had comped the neighborhood thoroughly and felt we were good with the price. Since I'd paid for that appraisal, I asked for an explanation. And talk about idiots.... I could not believe some of the factors he used, some having nothing at all to do with the house. I refused to sell, had it re-appraised (the value was only slightly less than sales price) and sold it to someone who fell in love with it.

The bottom line - to me, anyway - is that realtors and appraisers are no different from used car salespeople or doctors: They vary widely in ability, just like the rest of us.

I couldn't agree more about the appraisers and their appraisals. Typically I am a let go and let God type of person and this guy got under my skin to the point that I was acting like him, ugly. I will pray that the comps are done by one of the component appraisers our there and that the price is a good representation of what my house is truly worth. If not, then it wasn't meant to be and we will stay there until we feel we want to try again. It won't be right away, I can tell you that...I'm exhausted! LOL

Planlover,
Does not your buyer have a certain time frame stated in the contract to get all contingencies removed, like the appraisal? And if he does not get them done by this date, and he backs out after this date, he loses his deposit?

A long time ago, we had only 2 FHA-approved appraisers in the county.

& one of them always appraised homes in his city high & homes in other cities astoundingly low.

I once had a call from a Realtor 15 *miles* away who wanted to know the details of a house I had sold very cheap (sellers had to move for a job, house needed updating, etc).

This appraiser had used my sale as a comparable for a ranch property!
not a ranch style house, but a working ranch, 15 or so miles away.

His reputation got so bad that lenders would plan on an additional 2 weeks to close to allow time to appeal his appraisal.

What was the question?

oh yes.

If the appraisal comes in low, & you have comparables that support a higher value, appeal the appraisal.

After closing, if you like, you can send a letter to the lender complaining of appraiser incompetence or bias.

"I've seen aggressive people continue to 'negotiate' (blackmail the seller) all the way through closing; no matter what you do or agree to do, you might still face more demands."

I agree. This guy sounds like he wants to size you up so he can see how much he can get the price down. I'd avoid him like Ebola.

The appraisal is FINALLY in...9,000 above our agreed upon price! Woo-Hoo! I was so relieved. My realtor said this should put a smile on the buyer's face and a zipper on his lip. We shall see. And, yes, we had set dates for inspection, appraisal, etc., and he ALWAYS goes past the dates by waiting until the day before the due date to schedule it and then it buys him another week or so and then he had his inspections split in two sessions.

The news about the appraisal came in very late today so I hope this makes him (and my realtor) realize we are not going to do anything other than what is actually considered a contractual requirement to get this deal accomplished and if we need to start over we will. I hope he straightens up and doesn't do like I think many of us agree is possible and continue to be demanding even past the closing/final walk through. I guess I would just walk away from it and start over.

I think I'm going to take the weekend off and just enjoy the appraisal news and not worry about anything else. Thanks again for all you guys and your advice/stories. They help more than you know!! I share each one with my husband. It's been just great!

So happy for you! Enjoy your weekend. I'm going to try that, too.

Planlover, I hope you come back and let us know how this story ends! I really want to hear if you got the buyer to fork over a little dough for the damages, and just what some of his demands for repairs were.

About bad appraisals: I was trying to refinance my little old beach cottage in SoCal and the bank sent out an inspector -- who told the bank that my house was a "manufactured home"! which it certainly was not! Needless to say I didn't get the loan since they would not give loans for those. I tried to argue but didn't get anywhere.

In our contracts, it states that any damage done by the buyers due diligence is the responsibility of the buyer to repair.
Check the wording in your contract.

I'd stop giving the buyer access to the house as of now. He's done all of his inspections and appraisals, so he doesn't get access any more. I think he's probably entitled to a walk-through right before closing so that would be the only other thing I would allow. Also I would tell your realtor in no uncertain terms to monitor his every step during the walk-through - no more lounging in the keeping room! The realtor needs to do her job even though the buyer is unpleasant.

Also, no more extending deadlines. If he waits until the last minute to do something, that's his problem. I'd be telling your realtor to stay on top of him to get him to perform to the contract, and to quit asking you to make concessions that are not in the contract. Again, she's supposed to be working for you, and she needs to do her job.

This post was edited by silvercomet on Fri, Sep 19, 14 at 20:59

Would love to hear an update to this story... you around, planlover?

So sorry I haven't posted an update! We have been moving full steam ahead so busy, busy, busy. Since the appraisal came in the buyer has been VERY agreeable and seems pleased as punch with the fixes we were willing to make (all non-cosmetic) and not make (all the cosmetic ones). Let's just hope his positive attitude lasts through till closing (9/30).

You all have been fabulous and I just love that a forum like this exists to help in stressful times like these. Nothing like venting to people with past experience, expertise, etc. THANK YOU ALL!

I know "it ain't over till it's over" but I'm hoping we are over the hump. More after the 30th :)

Have a great weekend, all!

P.S. The damages to our ceiling are absolutely his responsibility and that has never been an issue with anybody. We are all on the same page there. We have chosen not to deal with it while we are still living here and asked that we leave it "as is" and let the new owner deal with it himself when he moves in and he was happy with that and we don't have to waste our time and get dust all over our things during the repairs. Hopefully that will work out ok.

One of the most gratifying parts of my job is to know that my buyer or seller are feeling the way you are feeling right now!
I am glad you feel good right now.