I think it's extremely unfair that the other son was given an acre of land. However, it is entirely possible that the OP didn't give DS and DIL land because she felt they would squander that away too. I wouldn't give them anything until they prove to be responsible.

Think of it this way; the DS & DIL didn't really need anything, or to outsiders shouldn't have needed anything because he was making a lot of money. It's possible the brother didn't have such a good job, and the parents gave them part of their land to help him out. I don't see what's so unfair about it. If one person makes over $100,000 a year, and the other only makes $20,000 - $35,000; why shouldn't the parents gift him something they already had? The other son showed that he could make something of the gift; while the other that didn't need it to begin with, literally pissed his money away, and had he had a piece of gifted land, would have lost that too.

I actually had a poll about wills / trusts at another place asking about "fairness" with division and what considerations should be taken into account. Just about everyone said the same thing, it should go with need as well and not necessarily with even amounts.

"If one person makes over $100,000 a year, and the other only makes $20,000 - $35,000; why shouldn't the parents gift him something they already had?"

So the child that is successful should be snubbed by the parents due to that very success? Sorry, I don't think that makes any sense. If we are talking extreme wealth (Bill Gates vs. his brother, if he has one), maybe. But not normal division of assets. Even in a situation where there is an extreme division of assets the difference in inheritance should be explained in writing (and hopefully told verbally ahead of time) and it should only affect cash or things that will be converted to cash, not the "things" (furniture, heirlooms, photos).

I think dividing inheritance and gifts based on "need" sets a bad example. Sounds like a great lesson: don't go to school, get a lousy job, and get bailed out by your inheritance or gifts! In fact, it's even better! You get your sibling's share because you were such a bum that your parents took pity on you and gave what would have been their share to you. Sounds like a great way to guarantee the sibs won't speak after the parents are gone.

roselvr: "If one person makes over $100,000 a year, and the other only makes $20,000 - $35,000; why shouldn't the parents gift him something they already had?"

sue36: "So the child that is successful should be snubbed by the parents due to that very success? Sorry, I don't think that makes any sense... I think dividing inheritance and gifts based on "need" sets a bad example."

Sue, I have to disagree with you completely. My annual salary is more than 5x - 7x my sister's. Additionally, my net worth is probably 20x - 40x hers. And it isn't because she is lazy or is a spendthrift; I've just done very well in my career and with my investments. Finally, when I retire in a few years, my defined benefit annuity from my employer will be over $100k, adjusted annually for inflation; she will have to live on SS and a small IRA.

Although my parents will leave a nice estate, including a mortgage-free house in Miami, I am not expecting an inheritance from them. In fact, I wouldn't want it. And no, I don't consider that being "snubbed" as you so eloquently put it. Why should my parents split their estate when my sister could benefit from it so much more than I would? Their money will help her have a comfortable retirement after working her whole life for small wages. My wife and I already have all that we need.

Why do I get the feeling that since downsouth is STILL thinking about this over a year later, no matter who says it's a bad idea, they will still go through with this?

It's also boggling my mind that an adult would seriously be upset at a parent giving in what they consider to be an unequal way. My younger brother and I are fairly close (we have been getting MUCH closer since he was abducted by aliens and replaced with a considerate and thoughtful adult lol) and I can say with certainty that I don't care if they give him more - either in bulk or little by little. I've never sat around thinking about what all presents and gifts we've each received since adulthood and would question what REAL closeness would exist if my brother sat around to add it up.

I also can't understand the whole greed with the inheritance of relatives, but that's another story entirely....

I think dividing inheritance and gifts based on "need" sets a bad example. Sounds like a great lesson: don't go to school, get a lousy job, and get bailed out by your inheritance or gifts! In fact, it's even better! You get your sibling's share because you were such a bum that your parents took pity on you and gave what would have been their share to you. Sounds like a great way to guarantee the sibs won't speak after the parents are gone.

I'm not saying to snub anyone and I said that some things could be taken into account. If a parent wants to provide for a child that didn't fare as well, it is their money and they should be able to do what they want with it. I don't think anyone should expect anything to begin with.

Sue, I have to disagree with you completely. My annual salary is more than 5x - 7x my sister's. Additionally, my net worth is probably 20x - 40x hers. And it isn't because she is lazy or is a spendthrift; I've just done very well in my career and with my investments. Finally, when I retire in a few years, my defined benefit annuity from my employer will be over $100k, adjusted annually for inflation; she will have to live on SS and a small IRA.

Thanks, you seem to understand what I'm saying. Like your sister and yourself, circumstances may be taken into consideration...

Why do I get the feeling that since downsouth is STILL thinking about this over a year later, no matter who says it's a bad idea, they will still go through with this?

I typed out a post this morning but never posted it. I see Dee hasn't been back to reply...

I did read the whole post, finished it last night. I feel really bad for Dee & her DH; because even though they weren't "asked" to do this, I think that in other ways, they were expected to some how help.

I hope Dee & her DH are finding some peace after getting the responses, and that they can get this all behind them..

Everyone's circumstances are different. Some people mention "adding it up". What if it were hundreds of thousands of dollars that one or two siblings were receiving over a period of decades, while you got nothing, not even a call from your parents explaining why you were being left out? There's no adding up required with that amount of money.

What if not only you were left out, but your kids as well? Imagine if your nieces and nephews got expensive toys, expensive musical instruments and private lessons for them, tuition for private schools, all-expenses paid trips - all throughout the year - while your kids got a card and $20 at Christmas?

It may not be a big deal if your parents take your sibs on an all-expenses paid vacation to Greece once. But how about if they did it for trips to Australia, Greece, Italy, while you get left out? Or if they bought your brother, who was very successfully employed, a new house and car?

If the sum total of all of these things wouldn't bother you in the least, then I tip my hat to you.

Cheifneil, that is the epitome of a straw man argument.

rose:

Think of it this way; the DS & DIL didn't really need anything, or to outsiders shouldn't have needed anything because he was making a lot of money. It's possible the brother didn't have such a good job, and the parents gave them part of their land to help him out. I don't see what's so unfair about it. If one person makes over $100,000 a year, and the other only makes $20,000 - $35,000; why shouldn't the parents gift him something they already had? The other son showed that he could make something of the gift; while the other that didn't need it to begin with, literally pissed his money away, and had he had a piece of gifted land, would have lost that too.

I agree that the irrresponsible son would have somehow managed to piss away the land.

My dh and I are somewhat in the situation you described above, except we are the ones who work hard and don't get much recognition.

BIL lives overseas with his wife and son in his MIL's home with servants. He has no mortgage to pay, no monthly bills associated with homeownership, but takes vacations and MIL pays for him to visit the states, sends a limo to JFK to pick him up and paid for it.

When we visited last, I flew in before dh, I had never been to Newark before, no one offered to pick me up at the airport, I arrived at night and had to rent a car. I got lost in a bad area of town and had to stop at many places to get directions to MIL's house.

DH and I have a house, mortgage, bills to pay, but we survive alright. We have no debt, we've never taken handouts from anyone.

It does leave a sour taste in our mouth when BIL is handed things over and over and over again when he can well afford it himself. Yet, we were raked over the coals when we couldn't travel to NJ for his visit after our wedding. He didn't travel to come to our wedding. We couldn't afford it. Dh couldn't get the time off. We just paid for a wedding ourselves and the fees for my immigration were soon to be paid.

So, the dividing it btwn need doesn't always happen. Sometimes the people who need it least get the most, the peole who need it most don't get anything. It's funny, dh and I were just discussing this the other night. We are the only ones out of his 4 siblings who live a normal life (as in having bills to pay, mortgage, etc.) and don't take handouts from MIL. Everyone else does. Yet, she never offers them to us.

I wouldn't want to be left in Newark like that. I couldn't imagine being in your shoes, well I sort of can. Something similar happened to my mother after visiting OR. The trip would have left a bad taste in my mouth. Getting from Newark to your MIL's, not knowing where you are going...

So, the dividing it btwn need doesn't always happen. Sometimes the people who need it least get the most, the peole who need it most don't get anything. It's funny, dh and I were just discussing this the other night. We are the only ones out of his 4 siblings who live a normal life (as in having bills to pay, mortgage, etc.) and don't take handouts from MIL. Everyone else does. Yet, she never offers them to us.

Unfortunately, I can relate to your story.

The worst part of it is I arrived at night and I had mapquest directions, but it's difficult to watch for signs in a strange place and keep your eyes on the road! I went the wrong way coming out of the airport because the sign came up so fast.

I wound up somewhere and stopped at a car dealership and they gave me directions. Then, I missed a turn because it was so darn dark out and got lost again.

When BIL arrived two days later and a limo was sent for him, I was livid. When dh arrived a couple days after that, he was even more livid.

Yes, the signs at Newark leave a lot to be desired, last time (4 yrs ago) I was there anyway.

Is it possible she doesn't think he's capable of getting there by himself; which would mean she thinks you guys may be better at directions...

Hi Downsouth,
I am glad that you are asking us for our opinions again. It has got to be hard for you to pull back and let your son and his family sink or swim on their own, but that is really what you need to do. You know this, or you wouldn't have asked us again. It is not like the answer will change in a year's time, since the Garden Web is a community and a lot of us were here with you last year. It is okay to do whatever you need to do to help your kids. The thing to remember is that the help must be just that - helpful. If your other son took the lot and has built a house and is doing well, that is great. You helped him with his dream. What would getting a mortgage in your name do for your son? It likely will teach him that he can always depend on someone to bail him out of a bad situation. He has not really finished learning his lessons yet. When he is pulling himself out of the hole he has dug for himself and has proven that he can be responsible with his money, then you might do something nice for him to make up for the land you gave his brother - like pitch in the $ to give his family a vacation when they are saving toward their house, or give them the $ to build a garage or family room that they would enjoy. The secret is that they have to be succeeding, first.

Something just occured to me. Given his sense of entitlement, the reaction you are likely to get from him is that you gave his bro a valuable piece of land, but just gave him the right to pay all his own mortgage bills himself! He will not see value in the risk you take by getting his mortgage in your name. Because it has no monetary value, he will still feel like you did not give him anything that compares at all to the land you gave his brother.

We have found the perfect retirement home for us while looking for homes for our son. We are not quite ready to put our home on the market even though we have been painting and getting ready to downsize for the last few months. We are still two months away from being ready, but we would try to finish sooner.

We went to the bank and took out a HELOC yesterday. If we get the house, we have offered to let our son and DIL live there until we sell our home. Homes are not selling fast here. This house is "bank owned" and is being sold by a realty company. The interior will need to be painted and it needs new carpet. It's only 6 years old and my husband and I love the floor plan. It sits on one acre of land and is not in a subdivision.

We told them they could stay there a year regardless if we sell our current home earlier. They will pay us the monthly rent. An incentive for them to help them out after our home sells is to give them $10,000 when they get ready to move. They will be getting almost all of their rent back. If they are neglectful and don't pay, we can make the monthly payment, but this is money they won't get back when they move out. I have to get a little tougher than I have been, LOL. They have been responsible in paying their rent payments for the last year, so we don't think there will be a problem. Hubby said if our home sells for more, we could give them a little more toward the down payment. We specifically told them we're not handing them cash as we want to be sure the money we give them goes toward their new home, but we would write a check for the down payment. DIL said she could get her parents to pay the closing costs on any house they get, so that would help them even further.

We aren't even sure we will get this house, but if we do we see it as a win-win situation for all of us. We are meeting with the Realtor today and making our first cash offer. It's in the perfect location, the perfect size and it has no steps. We would not do any renovations/remodeling until they moved out, except painting the interior and get the carpet cleaned.

After talking to the VP at our bank, I do feel much better about their situation. She said they need to wait another year. They can get a mortgage loan then, but she said it's not going to be at a lower interest rate.

Regarding the land next door that we gave our youngest son, hubby reminded me that we did initially offer this one acre to our oldest son and DIL and they said they didn't want to live in this area, as this county is not a good school district. This is why our youngest son won't stay here when they have children. I had forgotten that we did offer them this land.

It makes very little sense to me to tell your son and DIL that they can live in your new home for 1 year, regardless of when your current home sells.

So if your current home sells in 2 months, you want the fun of double moving, living in a rental somewhere and basically being unsettled for a whole year? Sounds like you'll be kicking off your retirement years with a real positive start.

I think you and your husband would be better off spending your money on a psychiatrist, so you can get over this permanent case of guilt. Your son is an adult, obviously with his own shovel to dig a hole for HIS MESSES.

Dee, I assume you will rent from the time your house sells until you move in? My worry is, what if they still don't qualify for a loan, then what?

You also may have to think about it as a landlord situation... Will you sign a lease?

Let me say again, what a big heart you & your DH have.... But please see an attorney before entering into something like this...

I know you wouldn't want to think you would have a problem getting them out when you are ready to move in, it happens. I am the poster child for what can happen in a family, and to have your own blood turn on you, well, it hurts. Once they are in, if they refuse to leave, then what? There's a post here somewhere, it was around the time I started coming here late January... an uncle helped a niece keep her parents house but was unwilling to leave when they had a buyer or something to that effect. Don't think they came back to update the post.

If you do not have something in place with the arrangement, as I said you may have problems getting them out. Renters have more rights then owners... I know because my parents had a 2 family house at one time.

IDK, I have a bad feeling about this after reading your other post; but in the end, it is up to you and your DH. I wish you luck.

Downsouth, I don't know about everyone else, but I am dying to know if your son and DIL ever got rid of that camper or their other toys.

Oh, this is going to be just LOVELY! I can see it now, the two brothers working side by side to mow their lawns and paint their houses. You will have BOTH of them "in your debt"! (Oh, isn't that what you wanted?)

If your area doesn't have good schools, why would you want your grandkids to live there? Do I recall that they are in middle school?

How old ARE your "boys" anyway?

Downsouth, my only advice is that you stop messing around with these peoples' lives. Be a Mom and Dad and Grandparents, giving love and providing an "ear", not imposing and financing "solutions".

As I recall you have already made equal financial contributions to each son. (Money to the elder; land to the younger.) LEAVE it at that. I certainly would not get caught up in flypaper with this leasing deal.

Please don't let your desire to be helpful get you into a huge mess - my husband's grandmother has been "helping" one of his uncles for many years now (he over 50). He's always just about to get another job, or just about to get some money - but it never happens. I don't think he's a bad person - more like someone with good intentions and bad follow-through. Her worries and concerns about his welfare have nearly ruined her health, and she's afraid if she pulls the financial plug, he'll go off the deep end. As long as Grandmother keeps enabling him, he'll continue to be a sponge. Don't put yourselves in the same position and be held hostage to your son and DIL's financial mess - cut the cord!

Rose: Is it possible she doesn't think he's capable of getting there by himself; which would mean she thinks you guys may be better at directions...

Nope. BIL grew up there. He knows his way just fine. Flat out, it's the golden child syndrome.

Downsouth: You never answered. Does he have a big screen TV?

We told them they could stay there a year regardless if we sell our current home earlier.

but if you sell earlier, where will YOU live?

I have to get a little tougher than I have been, LOL. They have been responsible in paying their rent payments for the last year, so we don't think there will be a problem.

I would worry that they will feel they don't have to be responsible w/ their rent payments to YOU. You haven't been tough in the past, and you won't evict them. Their current landlord will. Sure, they'll lose some of the $10,000 you've promised them, but that's money they don't have yet. And they may sort of feel that you'll give them the full amount anyway, hey, you're his mom and you're a pushover.

They may not even consciously make those sorts of decisions. They may just react that way instinctively or out of habit.

I wish you well; I hope it all works out. It's a hard time of your life to end up w/ money problems and familiy problems--there's less energy, less time, less earning power to make up for it.

Y'all realize, right, that we're just a bunch of suckers giving Downsouth more attention.

Gawd, I love that last post of hers:

"We have found the perfect retirement home for us while looking for homes for our son.

We went to the bank and took out a HELOC yesterday.

If we get the house, we have offered to let our son and DIL live there until we sell our home.

We told them they could stay there a year regardless if we sell our current home earlier.

They will pay us the monthly rent.

An incentive for them to help them out after our home sells is to give them $10,000 when they get ready to move."

Does this sound like she's heard or understood ANYTHING ANYBODY has written?

Really, folks, she's manipulating us just like she's manipulated her family.

First time she posted this, shame on her. This time, shame on us.

"Cheifneil, that is the epitome of a straw man argument."

Bethesdamadman, by straw man argument you are suggesting that I made up a fictional bunch of examples to make my point? Those are actually real examples. And the fact that you mistook them for fiction or exaggeration proves my point that everyone's circumstances are different and broad generalizations are difficult to make. You know what they say about walking a mile.....

Disneyrsh is absolutely correct in his post quoted below:

"Does this sound like she's heard or understood ANYTHING ANYBODY has written?

Really, folks, she's manipulating us just like she's manipulated her family.

First time she posted this, shame on her. This time, shame on us.

I have to agree that the OP seems too involved in her son's business.

chiefneil: "Bethesdamadman, by straw man argument you are suggesting that I made up a fictional bunch of examples to make my point?"

I am not suggesting that at all. I think you may need to look up the definition of a straw man argument. It is a mischaracterization of an opponent's position. Here again is what I and others were responding to:

sue36: "... I think dividing inheritance and gifts based on "need" sets a bad example."

My response: "Sue, I have to disagree with you completely." (I then added my own personal circumstance.)

You then chimed in with parents favoring one sibling over another for no apparent reason. You even emphasized that the one sibling that received all of the largess was very successfully employed.

THAT is why I called your post a straw man. It had absolutely nothing to do with the preceding discussion.

Downsouth sounds just like my mom.

My brother is 41 years old and my mom takes care of him financially. This is a lady that is 63 years old and makes $30k annually at a job where she has to stand all day and she's not in good health.

Mom is extremely frustrated and disappointed with my brother and we frequently talk about him. I tell her what I think about his shameless mooching and then she starts making up excuses as to why she must continue to support him.

It's like slamming your head into a brick wall. I don't know what this crazy guilty-parent syndrome is but it's going to leave my mom penniless in her retirement and then I'll have to support her. At least that's when the bank doors will close on my brother.

I've been watching this thread for awhile now and have to chime in - because my parents are the same way as downsouth appears to be. My parents are 74 and 75 years old, hesitate to go out to eat or buy anything for themselves because they are on a fixed income - are working at the telephone book delivery office six days a week/eight-ten hours a day for two months - yet they have given my brother over $30K throughout the years. It's always something - he was in between jobs and the car breaks down, or my sister-in-law had some major dental bills they couldn't cover, or there were expensive attorney fees when my brother was trying to get custody of his son... My brother and his family don't have extravagant spending habits - they needed the money for emergencies (as opposed to just getting a house instead of renting) - but still it bothers me to see my parents in this situation.

Worse yet, now their grandson (my brother's son) has started using them - dropped out of high school with no plans to get a GED, is lying about having a full-time job (he doesn't have a job at all and has stated he wants to do the minimum possible in life), lives with my brother rent free and does nothing around the house. BUT - my parents say he has had such a hard life because his parents split up when he was a year old - and if Steven needs car insurance money, or money for dates, or a deposit on an apartment, it's his, no questions asked. Steven will actually come around and drop hints to them (or just out and out ask them) and they will give. He will ask them to go out to lunch with him and then expect them to pay for him and his girlfriend.

I said all that to say there is no reasoning with my parents. I have told them they are enabling both my brother and his son, that this isn't teaching either of them any responsibility in the least, that I hate to see them going without things themselves to give to these guys. I told them things mean so much more when you work for them and attain them yourself - they have so much more value. Their hearts are so giving and it drives me crazy because they will never see this money again - and worse yet, they are in emotional debt to my brother and the grandson - their lives are completely intertwined to the point that they could be really hurt by them. It's definitely worse with the grandson because he is only 18 and these are habits that will stay with him into the future.

This has nothing to do with me - my husband and I are ok, due to very solid planning and a touch of good luck on a house sale we are fortunate to be able to stand together on our own. Even if we found ourselves in trouble we would take nothing from my parents or his - and we aren't keeping score. I said all this to say that all the above posters might be wasting their time trying to reason with downsouth because indeed, you went through this with her a year ago (I was lurking then as well). I really can't believe all of these questions from her are still continuing and worse yet that everyone is continuing to give advice that is being completely and totally ignored. I can't imagine the position she and her husband are putting themselves into, for all the reasons the above posters have said - very good reasons NOT to remotely consider doing this. It might be time to cease giving good advice and just let this person do what she and her husband ultimately intend to do anyway.

"Does this sound like she's heard or understood ANYTHING ANYBODY has written? Really, folks, she's manipulating us just like she's manipulated her family. First time she posted this, shame on her. This time, shame on us.

Actually, I think she is very sincere and I can certainly say I have known people like her.

The smartest thing they could do would be sell the house, buy a motorhome and tour the U.S. No cell phone and no forwarding address.

Common sense says that if she is so hellbent on satisfying her guilt; that they look for a retirement home that has adequate living arrangements so that son and family have a place to live.

Reality says they'll go through their retirement savings supporting the useless son and Downsouth will be a cashier at the local grocery store when she's 80 trying to supplement social security.

Actually, I think she is very sincere and I can certainly say I have known people like her.

Mini, I agree. This is her son & grand children... What I see is a lot of uncertainty, she knows helping could hurt her but feels she has to do something & it's tearing her up inside. I think some of the posts are a little harsh....

Common sense says that if she is so hellbent on satisfying her guilt; that they look for a retirement home that has adequate living arrangements so that son and family have a place to live.

It would be a good idea if her DH could handle the kids but he can't. It came up in the other thread.

There is this restaurant in the mountains and a natural river winds through the restaurant grounds. There is a deck that goes up to the river's edge. You could put a quarter in the "gumball type" machine and get a handful of trout food/pellets. You then throw the pellets in the water. There are all these super large,spoiled rotten trout that hang out there, waiting for the food handout.

Even though the trout are wild and they can swim elsewhere, they don't. They learned to be fat and lazy and sit and wait for the free handout. They probably learned about this early in life and figured out that it is easier for them to do this than to go elsewhere and have to work harder for their food.

Downsouth's son is just like one of those big trout.

Downsouth is just as much to blame because she is the one giving the handout. She feels she is helping. Instead, she has created an adult dependant that is unable or unwilling to be able to live life without financial problems and help from others. Her son's wife is just like him and she gets handouts from her mom as well.

This will go on for downsouth's entire lifetime unless downsouth gets counseling to end this. She is hurting her son more than she is helping him and she does not even realize this. Somehow she thinks that the 'latest financial issue' that the son is having will pass once she helps out. Then, the next issue comes up, and the next one.

Fast forward into the future: My bet is he won't pay all the monthly rent payments (she already noted that she is willing to allow this, and he knows it too and will take full advantage of it.). Then, she will allow him to live in the place longer than a year because some new financial issue will come up for the son. She will allow him to live there several more years to 'save up' for a home. Then another issue will come up with him. Then she will just give him her home because he will tell her that he doesn't want to force her grandkids to move because they have friends in the neighborhood and they don't want to change schools. Then when it comes time for college for his kids, she will not want to financially burden her son with moving. So then she just deeds him the house since he lived there so long. He is supposed to keep up the mortgage himself now. But he can't. The house goes into forclosure. She bails him out.......

Fast forward into the future: My bet is he won't pay all the monthly rent payments (she already noted that she is willing to allow this, and he knows it too and will take full advantage of it.). Then, she will allow him to live in the place longer than a year because some new financial issue will come up for the son. She will allow him to live there several more years to 'save up' for a home. Then another issue will come up with him. Then she will just give him her home because he will tell her that he doesn't want to force her grandkids to move because they have friends in the neighborhood and they don't want to change schools. Then when it comes time for college for his kids, she will not want to financially burden her son with moving. So then she just deeds him the house since he lived there so long. He is supposed to keep up the mortgage himself now. But he can't. The house goes into forclosure. She bails him out.......

This is what worries me...

"Downsouth's son is just like one of those big trout."

I've got to say, that is one of the better lines I've seen on here in awhile. I have a newphew who is a "fat trout" (so to speak). My SIL and MIL are the ones dropping the pellets. And he is NOT grateful.

I wasn't privy to the OP's post from last year. Now that more of the story has come out (OP has supported this son extensively in the past, etc.) I revoke what I said about making things equal in some way. Sounds like that has already been done. I still think parents should strive to treat children fairly (and my opinion on "fair" is close to equal. Maybe it's not your idea of what fair is, but it's mine). The OP's post really has nothing to do with treating her children equally, IMO. I don't understand why she feels "guilty". Because his life isn't perfect and stress-free?

My father has a framed print hanging in his house, and I'm sure many of you are familiar with the saying on it:
Buy a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime.

I think that saying applies here, and it nicely fits in with the whole "trout" thing.

Bethesdamadman - actually I was responding to posts about giving gifts to one sibling over time while not giving gifts of equal value to the other siblings (I mentioned "adding it up"). Several people seemed to think it was no big deal and grown-ups should get over it. You're right though, I misunderstood what you meant by "straw man argument".

I just bet that whenever she reads one of our posts, she's thinking "Oh, that isn't the same."...or "Oh I forgot to tell them.....(some other detail that forces her to help him out." etc etc etc

What's that saying about "no one is so blind as the one who WON'T see???"

Like an earlier poster, I'll bet the son and DIL still have a lot of their "things" with all the bells and whistles.

I'm wondering if her guilt is because while she does love the grandkids...and of that I have no doubt....she doesn't want to watch them as a side job...and I don't blame her for that at all!

Last night on Dr Phil there was a young man with his family (om, dad, grandma) he didn't have a job was living off hand outs from the 3. Dr Phil got him a person that specializes in goals, helping him figure out a job, and ways to plan the next stage of his life to get out of his parents house. It was a "what happened to them after the show" episode which I don't see listed on his site.

The guy said he lived like that because his parents / grandma didn't tell him no.

Dr Phil said he'd have the link for the lady planner they used but I can't find it. Anyone else catch this last night?

I'm chiming in very late on this post and have read only a few of the replies. I have to agree with everyone who is saying don't do it! Wow. Money and families rarely mix very well. My mom and her younger sister waged battle against the older sister over my grandpa's estate (all three were executors of the will...big mistake). He died in '92 and they settled the estate in '95. Basically older sister wanted land for nothing...didn't want to pay fair market value. She was huge trouble. Money + family = trouble.

roselvr wrote:

" I think some of the posts are a little harsh...."

I think if people were more straight up and straightforward and told it like it was, then people wouldn't be as likely to take advantage.

So, some feelings get hurt, boo hoo. The end result is a stronger, more independent person.

I'll take a kid that's kind of pissed at me that can stand on her own two feet than an emotionally stunted, ungrateful suck up any day.

I think if people were more straight up and straightforward and told it like it was, then people wouldn't be as likely to take advantage.

And I think there is a way to say things that don't have to be so harsh. Let's face it, none of us know each other personally, so there very well could be more to any story then what we know.

Dee & her DH are adults. They've gotten really good input from 2 posts... When she made her last post, she may not have thought about everything that could happen.. She's human... I don't claim to know everything either. If they do decide to go with their last plan and it back-fires, they will have learned a lesson that will hurt them more then they could ever imagine.

This is an extremely interesting thread, but it's too bad downsouth has not responded. Although some of the posts have been perceived as harsh, sometimes people need to "wake up and smell the coffee." I am a psychologist and absolutely agree with the opinions of how downsouth is enabling her son. Nothing good ever comes out of that. Her son needs to grow up and take some responsibility for his actions.

Here's a good example: a few years ago, my parents' neighbors across the street allowed their son, DIL, and 2 kids to live with them for several years. It was well known the son was lazy and selling drugs, as people would drop by the house at all hours of the night. Finally, my mom called me to say the cops had raided the home and found a meth lab in the garage! That son endangered the lives of everyone living there, as well as the neighbors! Son was sent to jail for awhile but I think he returned. He finally moved out when his parents sold the house to retire elsewhere. My MIL, who went to school with the son's parents, lamented on the situation, saying she could understand how they didn't want to kick out the grandkids.

MIL and FIL are also enabling their 32 y/o son, who lives at home. He initially moved back in (not the 1st time) when his roommate moved out and he did not want to pay for his own apartment. Please notice I said HE DID NOT WANT TO PAY vs. he was unable to pay (they're in the greater Bay Area). BIL faithfully pays rent, but his parents cook for him and I don't think he helps out with any household chores. MIL actually stated she does not mind having him there and is completely enabling him. They are finishing up some major remodeling to the house and she asked BIL what color he wants HIS room painted and what kind of cabinets he wants in HIS bathroom. Totally insane and she just doesn't get it.

I hope downsouth is getting the picture if she's even reading these posts

Heh. The kind of people who will take advantage of you every chance they get are marvellously skilled at "misinterpreting" or downright ignoring anything but the most direct communications.

There's no getting around the following statements:

1. I'm not giving you any (more) money.

2. You are responsible for your own livlihood.

3. You can't live with us.

4. I will not pay off your debt.

That's what's wrong with people today; instead of direct and HONEST communications, people tiptoe around and don't say anything because they don't want to make someone "feel bad" or be perceived as "harsh".

Somehow, ludicrously, emotionally hamstringing your children/parents and turning them intro lazy trout is "helpful". Ick. No thanks.

disneyrsh, thank you for this: "I'll take a kid that's kind of pissed at me that can stand on her own two feet than an emotionally stunted, ungrateful suck up any day."

I really needed to read that tonight. Dh and I are facing a situation with our soon-to-graduate from college dd, and I needed an adjustment to my backbone. Dh has long been for peace at any price, so until this week he has not agreed with any kind of tough love for either of our offspring. We have decided to sell the house in which dd & ds now live - but not until next spring. That gives them a couple of months after graduation to find nice apartments, which they should each easily be able to afford. We've also set aside what we think is a generous sum as graduation gifts for our kids. Between birthday & graduation gifts, they'll each graduate with more money than dh and I had saved until we were in our late 30s. Yet dd is very upset because she cannot continue to live in a nice house, on our dime, until she has enough money saved to afford to buy a house.

Reading this thread reinforces my belief that it's time to "nip it, nip it in the bud!" However, I will still be spending some time with Jack this weekend.

badin -- Who paid for college for your children? If you did, I'd keep the graduation gifts small. You've already given the gift of a college education. No more is required.

Some birds know when it's time to fly and step right up to the edge of the nest and DO IT. Some need Mamma Bird to show her confidence that they are ready and to give them some help up to the edge and off into the blue.

chisue, we paid for all expenses not covered by academic scholarships. Until last winter, dd was somehow under the impression that her scholarships had paid for nearly everything, and so felt that she'd "earned" her way through college. She forgot we paid for textbooks, supplies, food, allowance, & housing costs as well as approx. 20% of tuition not covered by scholarships.

We gave dd $10K when she turned 21, that she's invested, and have promised ds the same on his 21st. Over the years, we've also hired them for various jobs in order to fund about $10K into each one's IRA. For graduation, we've promised $10K to each. Dh will also sign over the titles to the cars they've been driving.

It all sounds a bit much when I count it up. We're not wealthy, but we have been very frugal and dh deferred a lot of his compensation until the last couple of years. We haven't taken an overseas trip since our belated honeymoon, but we did just pay for one for our kids (their other graduation gift.) I drive an older and somewhat battered minivan, which dh has been bugging me to replace, but I've been waiting until the kids are out of college.

Dh and I really struggled when we first married. Between uninsured major medical expenses, theft of vehicles, and other unexpected events, we nearly went bankrupt but managed to survive (barely.) My parents were very well off but never offered us any help, even though they frequently helped my older siblings (one of whom continues to count on their help today.) I'll probably be in my mid-50s when I inherit, and the money really won't mean much then. A tiny fraction of what I will receive would have made a world of difference back when we were skipping meals to pay the bills.

Unfortunately, I think we've overdone giving to our own children. I was a strict mom when it came to their behavior, manners, academics, etc., but dh was usually a pushover about everything. They are honors scholars and have great careers ahead of them. We just need to get past this issue about selling that house. Dh & I also need to get over the mistake we made in buying our current too-large house. Dd was unhappy to hear that we intend to downsize within four yrs., yet at the same time she made it clear that she does not want to live with us. I'm fine with both kids living on their own next year, but it's a bit much to take when she says that she wants to live in our other house but not with us. Should dh end up "retiring early" we'd planned to move there.

OP - so sorry to take over your thread. However, reading it has been a good lesson for me. I needed some fortification to withstand the boatload of tearful self-pity and dreadful imaginings from dd about how she will get mugged/shot/lose her job, etc. if we "kick" her out next year and she has to move into an apartment. I never thought that announcing the prospective sale of a house could be so emotional. This has also been a good reminder that acting out of guilt isn't good for anyone concerned.

Folks, my husband and I have been married 33 years. Never, never have we had family help. As an adult, I worked full time and put myself through undergraduate school, but my husband insisted that I not work when I went to grad school. Now retired, I can't believe when I see parents who don't even expect their own children to stand on their two feet. I truly believe that independence is a person's greatest asset! With it, you can face the world on your own terms and deal with anything. It also qualifies you for many challenging jobs! In a relationship, not one person is satisfied when weak individuals are enabled.

Badin, you go, girl!

Gardenweb: the only place where highjacking is a good thing.

Going out on your own is a scary thing-but it's the sort of thing that also builds character. Sheesh, looking back, most of the wisdom-building episodes in my fairly young life involved a lot of hair raising and "if I survive this it will make a good story."

Disneyrsh, what a difference a day makes! I am pleased to report that after a strongly worded email from mama bear followed by a somewhat tearful conversation, things have been set right. Clearly we had given our kids an inflated impression of our financial situation, among other things. It was also past time for some frank discussion, part of which opened my eyes, too. I didn't realize that the confidence and bravado I see my young adult children display may be covering a ton of insecurity and worry about the future. Dh & I have reaffirmed our faith in their ability to make it. Compared to them, we were slackers in school yet they think we just breezed through college and our early careers.

I also needed to remember how scared I was at 21 when a dear friend was shot dead by some thug who demanded his leather jacket after work one night. One of dd's friends was recently mugged outside of her apartment and that shook up dd. Unfortunately, that sort of thing can happen anywhere. I'd been mugged twice by her age.

Anyway, now I can start thinking about what color to paint the house before putting it on the market and whether or not to replace the carpet or just have it steamed cleaned.

I needed some fortification to withstand the boatload of tearful self-pity and dreadful imaginings from dd about how she will get mugged/shot/lose her job, etc. if we "kick" her out next year and she has to move into an apartment. I never thought that announcing the prospective sale of a house could be so emotional.

This reminds me of when my parents first discussed moving out of their house where we (the kids) all grew up. Actually all three of us kids said, more or less, that's great. It was my SIL who pouted! "Where will we stay when we come to visit Philly?" I think my mom just said, "that's not my problem"

I think selling the house where the child grew up IS an emotional event (for the child) but it shouldn't stop the parents.

As for the future/potential muggings/shootings (?!)/job loss, my parents always told me that they would be there for me if I really needed them. But the events had to actually occur before they do anything.

Badin, are you looking for any more kids? I'm 40 and completely housetrained. Heck, you can just send me a check for $50K and I'll send you a photo you can place on your mantle. ;)

Do your kids have even a clue how fortunate they are? There are lots of us who moved out at 18, made our own way without any support, and never had cash showered upon us. I hope you haven't set your kids up to expect "economic outpatient" support.

(It's pretty interesting looking at the expectations of young people of this generation. I still shake my head at an interview I gave to a young college graduate with no real-world experience who wanted a starting salary in excess of what I was making as head honcho. No job for you!)

This reminds me of a conversation with my nephew who had just gotten an infusion of funds from his parents for some non-essential thing. I asked him how he, as a working adult, could justify taking money from them, and his response was "they don't need a lot of money; they like to live simply."