We literally had water running down the walls from the ceiling.

If water is running from the ceiling waterproofing the basement won't help any.

Don't buy a house until you have seen for yourself how the basement/yard performs in the rain.

That's rather impractical during anything but rainy weather. What if you are buying during the dry season?

A basement with water problems of the type you describe should be pretty obvious. Water running down basement walls leaves telltale marks that persist for ages. Basements with water problems also tend to smell pretty musty.

Did you do any grade work since you moved in? It sounds like the water was coming over the top of the basement walls. It could be a surface drainage issue.

Yes, creekside -- we also thought that water problems would be pretty obvious. However, the basement didn't smell musty at all. One waterproofing specialist said that the walls are freshly painted -- a telltale sign to him that they were trying to cover up the water marks. Indeed, the water marks, upon closer inspection now can be seen (barely) through the paint. We think now that the freshly painted block wall may also have been covering up the musty smell.

It may be time to consult with an attorney. Hiding that sort of thing without a disclosure is actionable in a lot of places.

Still, if it was coming over the top of the walls, it is likely a grade or drainage issue. That might explain the lack of a musty smell. The water issues may only occur during heavy rain events. The basement may not be inherently damp.

Are the top of the basement walls below grade?

If the basement was perfectly dry, with no visible signs of moisture intrusion, and no damp or musty/moldy smell, there is no way the HI could state that there was a water intrusion issue.

However, even so, if poor grading existed at the time of inspection, that should have been noted in the HI report with an explanation that it could result in water intrusion. If he did note such, then the HI is not at fault with this particular issue. However if the sellers or you changed the grading after the inspection, of course all bets are off.

That said, as far as the other problems, once again, if they were camouflaged or concealed by the sellers, and therefore not visible on the day of inspection, the defects can't be picked up by the HI if he can't SEE the defects.

Yes, REA's do often refer HI's who will "go easy" on the home. However, that can be true of any HI you hire as he may not want to piss off the REA, in hopes of getting future referrals. In addition, there are many REA's who will ONLY refer those HI's who are very thorough.

The buyer needs to realize the following:

1) You are paying for a service...NOT a product. Therefore, bargain shopping is generally a bad idea, as you really can't compare features and specs as you can with a product.

2) A home inspection should take a minimum of 2.50 hours on an average size home in average condition. Anything less is a red flag...as is a same day report..especially if it is a check list. These types of inspections are the least thorough, the least informative and generally the least expensive. In other words, invariably you get what you pay for.

3) The best time to look for an HI is when you decide to look for a house...not at the 11th hour when you have a day or so to find an HI, giving you no time to perform any research.

A house is usually the most expensive and complex investment made, yet most people continue to buy in to the fallacy that for a few hundred bucks, and an hour or so of the inspectors time, that a computer generated and/or same day check list is all that is required to make an informed decision. Not.

Last but not least, buyers must READ the entire report...which should be a lengthy written narrative inclusive of digital photos of all found defects or issues, and it should be written specific to the house in question..and not a bunch of general boiler plate filler.

Also, you would be amazed at how many buyers don't read the entire report...until after a issue surfaces, then they go back and see that the HI did indeed report that issue.

Therefore, the warning is not to avoid the HIs' referred by the REA..the warning is to perform due diligence in plenty of time in order to determine IF the REA referral or any other HI being considered is well worth hiring...based upon service provided, as opposed to lowest cost.

Last but not least, be realistic about the limitations of a home inspection, and keep that in mind when working with the attorney in crafting a purchase contract.

We've not changed the grading in any way. We have discovered that the water running down the walls is coming from the brick and concrete front porch. Other moisture is coming from the main water line coming into the house and we don't know where all the rest is coming from. These will all be repaired on our dime.

We don't plan on consulting an attorney, but I did file a complaint with the BBB about this HI. He responded saying that HI's don't have to report every problem that exists or potential problems so he is not at fault. He said the basement appeared fine to him.

How does one respond to something like that?? Am I wrong for wanting my money back?

"It may be time to consult with an attorney. Hiding that sort of thing without a disclosure is actionable in a lot of places. "

you can try, but are very unlikely to get anywhere.

They seller will say "there had been problems but we repaired them, then painted to make the place look nice for the sale."

It is VERY hard to prove things like this unless in court, even by the civil rule of 'preponderance of the evidence.'

This is one of the reasons that all the disclosure laws are relatively toothless.
The only action is to bring a civil suit to try and recover costs.

Proving what someone new is harder than you think.

deanie 1: "How does one respond to something like that?? Am I wrong for wanting my money back?'

Your HI is being truthful. There is a limit to how much can be discovered during a home inspection because it is limited to what is VISIBLE. Often, absent an obvious visual defect, such as evidnece of moisture, or missing or defective components (poor grading, shingles, mortar, siding etc) the HI has no way of knowing that there is a water intrusion problem.

As you have described, the sellers purposely concealed any evidence of water intrusion, including odor.

Please explain why and how you think that the HI should have discovered the problem.

Also, exactly what did the waterproofing companies propose in order to fix water coming in from the porch, the main water line, and also an unknown source? I ask because if there is an unknown source, how will they fix something if they don't know the cause? What do they plan to do about the porch and the water line?

You need detailed estimates, because waterproofing companies are known to propose expensive repairs, only to still have a water intrusion problem remain.

I know someone who got a quote for 65K (that is not a typo) to waterproof a basement. They called a forensic HI...it turned out to be a simple issue of negative grading.

You must do your homework before you move forward with "waterproofing", or risk an even bigger headaches.

Agree with logic's post. Home inspectors cannot see what they cannot see, and they can't tell you everything about a house by inspecting it. An inspection is NOT a guarantee that there is nothing wrong with the house other than what the inspector finds.

It's unfortunate that this happened to you, but try to put the initial anger aside and focus on fixing up the issues you've found. You don't need to be stressed on top of stressed. To me all new homes are money pits in the beginning because of unforeseen issues, design items you want changed, different furnishings, etc.

Thanks, guys for your objective and insightful thoughts and good warnings about basement waterproofing companies.

Our HI missed this because the entire basement was freshly painted in basement sealer, which we thought was just fresh white paint. In his response to our complaint he said he knew it was sealer but just never mentioned it to us. Since that's a red flag, we would have at least had a heads up that the basement MIGHT be a problem. There was staining all along the floor where floor meets wall, which I never noticed, but I think the HI should have. Also the front porch had a giant crack that had been repaired once before and many many small ones unrepaired (I didn't notice that either -- I know I was not very observant), but I think the HI should have noticed that too.

We have fixed the porch and the waterproofing people said they'd fix everything else.

I don't know. We moved in and stored a ton of stuff down there and one day it's raining and we go into our unfinished basement to see water streaming down the walls, puddling on the floor, and wrecking our good recliner. Isn't this just the sort of thing you hire an HI to prevent?

I'm not suing him, just want my $250 back. Do you still think I am out of line?

First and foremost, I'm not trying to be snide, but seriously, you get what you pay for...and $250.00 for a home inspection pretty much gets you a walk through...which is probably why he missed the red flags.

That said, lets talk about those red flags. The sealer alone is not a red flag...because bottom line is that chances are that at some point most basements will experience water intrusion even if they have gone for years and never had a drop.

This is because things change....the most obvious is development, which creates more impervious coverage, so the water flows to places that it never did before...often entering basements.

The weather pattern has also been very weird for at least few years now, in terms of sometimes raining for days on end, overwhelminmg even the driest of basements. This is why many places are enacting new storm water management measures etc.

That said, it is pro-active to seal the basement walls with seller...so that is not necessarily a "red flag".
It is also best to have a sump pump? Do you have one? If not...have one installed.

A friend who has owned his house since new 15 years ago had a flood in his basement for the first time a few months ago...a sump pump would have saved him a lot of grief.

Of course, IF the staining along the floor and walls were present on the day of inspection, and did not develop between the day of inspection and the day you closed, and IF it was not concealed by the sellers possessions...yes, he should have noticed this and reported it..

If he took pictures of the basement and you have them to prove that the staining was present, you can make a case for money back. Otherwise, probably not.

The porch is whole different story, as all of that should have been reported. If he did not include that in his report, I would send him documentation of what he missed, and tell him you want him to refund the cost of the inspection for that reason alone, water intrusion or not.

However, you may need to prove that the porch issue caused water to intrude. You still have not said what the waterproofing company plans on doing about the water main issue, and the unknown source.

Until you have definitive info on all of this, IMO, he will probably not comply as he can say that you can't pinpoint the cause as being the porch.

Before spending huge bucks on the WP company, hire a professional landscaper to check the grade...as that could be your problem. You may also want to hire a forensic HI, to see if he can determine where the problem is coming form...as water has a funny way of appearing no where near the actual source of entry. Expect to pay at least $500.00.

Last but not least...what state do you live in? I can check for you to see if they regulate the HI profession..if so, you should report him to the licensing board..or at least tell him you will..as that has far more impact than the BBB.

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Funny about the waterproofing company. They really don't care about finding out what the actual source of the water is, they just want to trench the basement and let the system deal with it after it enters the house. This is something that makes no sense to me and we will think about further. We have had the grade checked and we are fixing the grade on one side of the house. The water main is a mystery we will work on. We live in a small town in TN and I doubt we have a forensic HI, we only have three HI's altogether.

We've decided not to report him to any kind of HI board. We're just too nice and this is just too hard to prove. He took no pics of the basement or the porch and we don't know what seller's stuff may have been blocking his view. And yeah, you get what you pay for. But in this town all the HI's are the same price for the same short little form. We will move on and get on with enjoying our house. My complaint will stay with the BBB though.

Thanks, logic, and everyone for sharing what you know with me.

Your state does license the profession...and they require a through report. I know that you are not interested in filing a complaint, but you may change your mind when you read what the HI was required to include in his report.

Compare the rules outlining what should be inspected, and what should be included in the report to his report, and if he shortchanged you on this you should file a complaint, as that is the only way that the three HI's who have a monopoly in your town will be more motivated to to do the job for which they are paid.

In addition, your state requires the HI to carry Errors & Omissions insurance, which covers him if he makes an error.

Here are the links. Best wishes with whatever you decide and I hope all gets resolved soon.

TN Home Inspection Rules
http://tn.gov/sos/rules/0780/0780-05/0780-05-12.pdf

Here is a link that might be useful: TN Home Inspection Complaint Form

Thanks, logic. I went to your HI rules and that was a real eye opener. The link was interesting too. I feel a lot better now that I know that if I do get my money back he's got insurance.

It would take an HI a while to do all that stuff the state requires and funny thing --- he told us we could walk through the inspection with him at 4:00. We got there at four and he said he was done already. Wonder how long he spent? Geez.

You've helped a lot. Thanks so much!

Anytime....

...for future reference, a home inspection of an average home in average condition should take at minimum 2 and a half hours....because, as you can see, it takes a while to inspect all required in order for the inspection to be a thorough as possible.

IMO, if more people reported HI's such as this, who specialize in hit and run to the detriment of the buyer, the better.

Once again, best wishes. :-)

If you don't report him, he'll do it to others, maybe even your relatives one day, and you're not doing the profession any favors by allowing him to continue on like that.

They really don't care about finding out what the actual source of the water is, they just want to trench the basement and let the system deal with it after it enters the house.

Putting drains inside basement walls and running that to a sump is my least favourite method. Even the best installs of that type often don't work very well and why pick it up after it is in?

I'd do it from outside. Your foundation plantings go away and the digging is a chore (either hire kids or pay a small excavator operator) but once the trench is there you can lay in landscape fabric, drain rock and the perforated pipe yourself, its really pretty easy.

The part I wouldn't do myself is actually waterproofing the outside of the basement walls. The brush on, roll on stuff sold in the big box stores is pretty much damp proofing, you want the true water proofing that is sprayed on or troweled on. Then install dimple boards, tie all that into the perimeter drains and carefully back fill, tamping as you go. Again, those college kids come in handy.

While you have it all open you can insulate the outside walls too...this helps with condensing moisture in the basement. We don't have to do that in my climate so I don't know a whole lot about it but some of the folks on the Building a Home forum can give you good answers on that.

Its a lot of labour and not very much tradecraft. If you want to do it yourself, you can grab some labour (see college kids) and rent or hire any equipment you need.

I would say the seller did not disclose this problem and you have a legal reason to go after them for repairs. Call a contractor and get his opinion if this is a "long term issue". Then call your realtor and have them contact the seller.