PS I should add if I build two stories I should have at least a partial lake view in summer when trees leaf out--but from the ground of the lots even tho on a ridge, when trees leaf out I won't have a lake view. And also, there's no deeded lake access. So it's a world of difference between a waterfront lot and an inside lot, even a nice cul de sac inside lot.

If you feel out of your element, consider getting a real estate agent to represent you. They can help you determine what is a fair price. However, they cannot force the seller to accept the offer. The seller may not desperately need the money and may be willing to wait for the right offer.

You need your own realtor to represent your interests. One thing's for certain: if you never put in a bid, you'll never know what the seller will accept. Go with what you feel the lot is worth and see what happens.

This post was edited by Jewel654 on Mon, Mar 31, 14 at 13:33

Yes, did I omit I went and got a buyer's agent I like and trust. She said it's worth about half what it's listed at and she'd be fine with submitting an offer. She knows the listing agent and has done some work with her and says the owner can be a bit stubborn. There is no "right" offer. The four parcels and home have sat there for two years and not moved at all. The buyer's agent said at that price the lot will just sit there for many more years. Sorry if I omitted that.

But I'm asking anyway because I still feel so inexperienced and any advice is great thanks.

What else is there to know... the buyer's agent said the property comps at $XXXX. (I forget what she told you and can not take the time to find it now) Did the buyer's agent show you comps?

Two years of no action may have worn down the owner a bit. Or not, you won't know until you submit the offer. Your realtor should definitely provide documentation as to support the price you are offering.

What about the idea of getting a bank appraisal for the lot? A buyers agent in Alabama just told me that would cost $400 and might really help my position.

The problem is there are so few comps.

Always make triple sure undeveloped lots are buildable. Did they get the permits and perk tests for the new septic systems, or just have them plopped in one weekend?

I heard of a guy locally that thought he was getting a great deal on two oceanfront lots at a million a piece. He's suing the seller to get his money back. They're big, beautiful, oceanfront, but protected and unbuildable. He deserves to lose; buyer beware.

Yes, the septic is 1996 and any offer would be conditional on certifying and pumping. I am not sure people had time to read my very long initial post where I explained that his parents bought these two lots to put a big septic on as his mom's waterfront lot across the street had well water and couldn't have a big septic. So perking is not necessary. I do have to have someone out to see where it is, and of course, if it wasn't certified and pumped out, the cost of a new one would come off the price.

The entire neighborhood and interior ridge is buildable--I don't anticipate any particular issues there. It's county water so no worries about a well.

Perk Improvement Permits are time sensitive. Here, they are only good for 5 years. Just because a lot perked 5 years ago, does not mean it will perk now.
You never answered my question... if your buyers agent pulled comps and advised you on the fair market value, what's your beef?
Any appraiser is going to pull the same comps as an agent, so I would not advise spending $400 on one.
In reality, the lot is worth somewhere between what you are willing to pay for it and what he seller is willing to let it go for.
I suppose I am a little confused on what your ultimate concerns are.

The only thing left to do is look at the comps and information given to you by your realtor, and decide how much you are willing to pay for the lot. If you really, really like it, in order to get it, you may have to pay for it. Just do not pay so much that you get sick to your stomach. If you do not feel that you can make a deal you can accept with the current owner, it is time to put your energy into the search for the lot you can build your future house on. That is what it all comes down to, what are you willing to do and what is the seller willing to do.

You can pull all the comps, pull all the data, do all the analysis in the world. But no amount of data is going to make the seller accept your offer. It sounds like the seller is selling on emotion, not data. And you can't change his emotion with your data. So figure out what you think is a reasonable amount to pay, and also figure out what the maximum you will pay is. Make your offer. If the seller counters, raised your offer to your max. If the seller still doesn't accept, just walk away. There is no point in getting into multiple negotiations that go on for weeks. A simple offer, one counter, and your done.

(I have no idea if this would happen, but if the seller isn't necessarily ready to sell his lots, he may not be ready to have someone building on his lot. He could be tough to deal with when you start building, complaining every step of the way, and making your life miserable.)

HI, the seller lives an hour away so he wouldn't be complaining--once he sold the lots--why would he complain?

Thanks for the info on perking, the listing agent told me that it didn't need perking because it has a septic, but then of course, the septic has to be pumped and certified, and if it wasn't, then theoretically you could re-perk and have a problem? Though I'm not sure what the problem would be since nothing has changed on the land.

Re: my beefs? I haven't gotten comps from the buyers agent, I just asked her if she would submit an offer and serve as one if I needed. Neither do I have comps from the listing agent. Having myself lived in a big city for years my impression is both agents don't do much work for their money. They aren't at all like the agent I had up in the northeast who worked her butt off for me as a buyer and was very knowledgeable and just terrific.

I have been told by a friend whose family has been in real estate in this area for 50 years that a bank appraisal can go a LONG way to bringing a seller to reality.

You are absolutely right he might not come round, but then again maybe he would. Maybe the listing agent has her head up her proverbial...and has convinced him of the same.

I should add, a really smart buyer's agent in an adjoining state, friend of a friend, said part of the problem for both agents (listing, whom I don't like and seems dishonest, and the one who'd be a buyer's agent for me and whom I like and is honest but not a rocket scientist and a bit slow on getting back to me) is there aren't many comps on vacant lots anyway. That's again why an appraisal is useful.

The prices we're talking about here are such that, after two agents split the cost and one pays her broker, the money is little and neither is super motivated to spend a lot of time imho. I could be wrong. So I'm willing to do it myself. I like to see if I can make things work.

I have to check on the perking again so thanks for that. If there's a slight possibility the septic can't be certified, I need to find out what I need to do.

"He had the idea that someone would be thrilled to come along and buy the house and four lots for a song".

First, I'm confused about your statement above--selling something for a song means for very little. So are you saying you think the seller was hoping someone wouldn't offer much?

After all the exposition, sounds like you are overly fixated on getting some kind of comps. I believe property records are usually public records, so get online or go to city hall and pull those. That way you aren't depending on anyone to provide anything--check it out and get the facts.

And then as others have said, once you know what property is selling for, decide if you want to make a reasonable offer. Make it, or don't. Should you decide to offer, if it's accepted you move on with that property. If it isn't, you move on to another property.

It all seems pretty simple.

I'm with those who say "make an offer." Be prepared to walk away. You obviously like this property, but there is probably a lot more available property out there. I'm sure you know to go online and most realtors put the MLS listings on their sites so you can search for land, etc.

When buying property, location is always key if you ever wish to sell.

We lost 4 full price offers before we found the house we purchased. We loved them all. It wasn't meant to be.

We now have a place far superior to the first 4. Location is a private gated road up in the hills with decks everywhere and beautiful city and pastoral views. Even here, where prices range from $500,000 to $2.5 million, comps are hard. Each home is custom with varying sq. footage and features. Each lot is 1-5 acres. There are no trailers on this mountain, but plenty of RV's! It's rural, and we love it, and I've seen many unimproved lots up on this mountain for much less.

Good luck. Make the offer. Prepare to be turned down. You can always come up on your price.

Suzi

Thanks Suzi. Your house sounds beautiful!!!

Sorry about the "for a song" I meant for a "fortune" lol. Just was writing very fast.

It is not simple, when you have an unrealistic seller who inherited his properties, remembers the bubble, and can sit around and wait. It is not simple either, when the listing agent seems a bit slimy and shines one on.

I spoke with an appraiser today and I'm going to do that, after this seller's lake parcel sells. He knows the neighborhood. I think it'll have more weight. I essentially have to work around the listing agent. Every answer she has given me has been silly or a nonstarter. And in fact today I went back to sales int he neighborhood and found a comp up the block--a lot that had a carport, so was obviously clearcut...an inside lot, that went last year for 20k.

I was also told by the appraiser(s) that this was essentially one lot. It can't function as two. He may be saying to himself, and the listing agent may be saying it's two lots. But when this neighborhood was platted it was before any requirements. Once setbacks were required by the county, then the triangle portion became unbuildable. It's essentially surplus land, and really the lot is simply a .4 lot. The technicality of it being platted into two no longer holds.

I've been doing lots of resarch and asking questions and always appreciate everybody's input. For me it hasn't been simple, though I'm starting to get clearer about it.

It IS true you can be attached to something you think you want, not get it and end up with something better! :-)

The thing is that I don't think that the seller will listen to your arguments. There's a possibility that you can give your agent the necessary info, which she can share with the seller's agent, who then can try to convince the seller. However, some people may be literally unreasonable, and if he isn't "motivated" to sell, then he isn't.
So, yes, it's great to collect the necessary information to make an offer, but be prepared to either pay more than you think it's worth or walk away.

Sounds like the buyer's agent was dead on with her advice to you that it is worth $18000 - $20000. You say you found a comp that sold for $20,000. There you go.
I don't understand why you would wait for a waterfront lot to sell before you would get the appraisal. You can not compare a waterfront lot to your cul de sac lot.

Everybody knows the value of real estate is the price the buyer and seller agree on.
If the owner of the property wants "too much" you simply walk away, or offer more money for it.
Many people want X dollars and are willing to wait until the right person comes along. It happens all the time.

Make an offer or walk away. All the research in the world is not going to change the price, and one of these days while you are fidgeting about it someone will come along and buy it.
Land is like art, each piece is different. If you have decided that this is your Picasso, and it is priced like a Picasso, then the only remaining action is whether you buy what you want or go find something else.

I'm still not sure about your obsession with finding comps. This is a back lot, not waterfront. So the price of waterfront lots has no bearing on your back lot.

Why waste your money on an appraisal? The seller doesn't care about your appraisal. Add that $400 you were going to spend to the amount you will offer for the property.

You have state a million times that the seller is unrealistic. Why do you think your research is going to change his mind?

I guess I'm just wondering what is holding you back from making an offer on the property? Beyond the fact that you don't like the listing agent and you think the seller is being unreasonable. Neither of those have any bearing on the value of this lot - either what the seller is willing to accept or what you the buyer is willing to pay.

"I guess I'm just wondering what is holding you back from making an offer on the property?"

My guess is that submitting an offer and getting a "no" reply would represent the end of the dream. As long as the OP doesn't submit an offer, the possibility of the dream lives on...

"All the research in the world is not going to change the price, and one of these days while you are fidgeting about it someone will come along and buy it."

I agree with Lucille, we had this happen to us many years ago! We fell in love with a lot, one of only two on a great residential street. The lot was not cleared and the owner wanted all the money. The listing agent told us the owner was not interested in less than a full price offer, which was way over market value. We put off making an offer until after summer vacation and when we came back, the lot was sold!

We later found out the lot sold for very close to what we were going to offer, and I was devastated. We likely would have been able to come to an agreement on it if the listing agent hadn't put us off or we had made our offer despite what the listing agent said. A year later we purchased a home across the street from the lot, so I had to look at that lot and the custom home they eventually built on it every day for 13 years! Nothing like rubbing your nose in it.

Hi Folks, no I'm not delaying because it's a dream that I'm afraid will die lol...and no I'm not obsessed, but I'm thorough, and I believe in creating a situation that is most likely to turn out in my favor.

Why am I waiting? Because he has 3 parcels and both agents agree he'll be in a better mood when the lake parcel sells. That's the only one reasonably priced imho. The parcels have been sitting there for two years overpriced--but he finally made a few changes and if his waterfront sells, then it will make him more inclined to take an offer on his inside lot that is less than he hopes.

In addition, the appraiser said because there are so few comps in this area it's a great idea to wait for the waterfront lot to sell as a current comp. They have formulas in which to adjust that for the lot across the street. How MUCH waterfront, as compared to the other lot, what its views are etc. Good appraisers do this all the time. There are simply not enough comps otherwise.

Finally, I was told by a friend whose family has been in commercial real estate in this and a neighboring state for 50 plus years that a bank appraisal can actually go a LONG way to bringing a seller to reality.

So that's what I'm going to do. It's my wager that this lot ain't selling anytime soon, even at the proper price. I could be wrong but you have to understand that there is no custom building going on in this neighborhood any longer, except the occasional waterfront lot. This is a very mixed neighborhood. It has a lot of trailers and mobile homes. The custom homes are the minority. The only few custom homes on inside lots were built around 2006, at the peak of the bubble. If I lose it so be it but the waterfront is supposed to get an offer later this month according to the listing agent.

Thanks for your advice...I got very good advice on an appraiser's site as well. No, I'm not going in without a very respectful attitude and a lot of data. Sorry...I don't think an offer out of thin air with none of that will work.

When you said Anyway, I have to build a small nontoxic home because of environmental sensitivities including chemicals and mold so I can't really find a house that is okay for me. I think people thought you meant you needed to buy a lot and get building. From your later postings it appears you are in no rush and are willing to wait, even if it takes a few years, to put in an offer.

If the seller doesn't really need to sell and is unrealistic about what the lots are worth, it may take a long time for that waterfront lot to sell.

You may think the property owner is unreasonable, but that can be a two way street. But, he can't tell you to get stuffed unless you make him an offer. The person I really feel sorry for is your realtor. She's doing a ton of work,dealing with difficult people, and she probably won't get any reimbursement for it. You really should buy her a vacation cruise after this ordeal.

Move on....

My market that I work, is on and near a 35 mile long lake. Your appraiser is incorrect in saying that you can adjust a non waterfront lot to a waterfront lot. Even if they are just across the street from each other. Even comparing waterfront lot to another waterfront lot is tricky because of water depth, water quality, quality of view, located on cove vs. main channel and on and on. I would not waste $400 on this guy.
Why are you not accepting of your buyer's agent advice that it is worth $18,000 - $20,000? After all, you said you found a comp for $20,000.

You should sue the seller and force him to sell you the lot for what you think it is worth.

"...and I believe in creating a situation that is most likely to turn out in my favor...."

In other words, you want to have the advantage over the seller. Maybe he feels the same way about the buyers.

Well...all in all the best piece of advice I got on this forum was about re-perking. So when I make my offer which will be conditional on certifying and pumping out the septic, there is the chance it won't be certifiable so I would have to reperk and either remove and/or install a new one, which should lower the price accordingly.

I am perplexed by many of the other answers. I feel I got great advice from professionals and on an appraisers site, and have a game plan that makes sense to me. I am a little perplexed why some answers seem hostile and wonder if they are from folks who were or are selling houses and lost money in recent years, who knows.

Clearly he overpriced his lot, per the comp I found and per the buyers agent. But if I think about how to maximize my chances of conveying this, it will be after he sells his lake lot (which is fairly priced unlike this inside lot or moms house), and may be more receptive. All his stuff has been sitting for two years. For all I know the listing agent, who lives near the city and only knows this particular neighborhood because her boyfriend has some property here...for all I know she likes having her sign posted on his overpriced lot as free advertising and doesn't encourage him to lower the price.

Neither agent has spent more than a few minutes with me on the phone so nobody has to feel sorry for the agents involved.

I will be back in a few months to let you know how it turned out meanwhile we are also looking this month at the other area we like a few hours away. Thanks again.

Again, the waterfront lot can not be used as a comp! Even if the appraiser uses it, the lender will not allow it.

Clearly he overpriced his lot, per the comp I found and per the buyers agent. But if I think about how to maximize my chances of conveying this, it will be after he sells his lake lot (which is fairly priced unlike this inside lot or moms house), and may be more receptive. All his stuff has been sitting for two years.

Or, he sells the lake lot, feels flush with money from the sale and doesn't feel a need to lower the prices on his other lots, so they sit for sale for another two years or more.

I think waiting on somebody to sell a lot and then make an offer may backfire on you. He may be thinking opposite of what you want. Either what dekeoboe mentioned or that wow there is suddenly a lot of interest in my lots. Maybe they are worth more or the market is picking up and I should stay at this price as others are coming along now too.

There really is no right or wrong or what could happen as to what the seller thinks without knowing the actual person.

It sounds like you have a good idea of what the price should be and also how much you are willing to pay. Make an offer and if he doesn't bite then look elsewhere. If you don't find anything else, then make another offer a little later again for what you think it is worth and negotiate to what you're willing to pay. If that doesn't work then wait a little while and try again if you can wait.

" I am a little perplexed why some answers seem hostile "

If you refer to my joke, let me explain: You sound as if you feel entitled to purchase the lot that you like for the price you think is fair.
No amount of rationalizing ("the owner is a bit stubborn, and it takes some owners time to come to reality") will help you.

I was in a similar situation where the property (teardown) that I wanted was listed at $235k and I thought it was worth $190k. I offered a little bit less than that and after some back and forth we settled at $205k.

Offer a bit less than what you think it is worth and then negotiate from there. That's how real estate works.

Not sure that I'm understanding the situation completely but it seems to me that this gentleman has invested a fair amount of money into the lot if he put a septic system in. That has value and the land has value. He probably wants to recoup some of that investment and that is part of the reason he is asking the price he is for the cul-de-sac lots. I don't think you've been factoring the septic value which can be thousands of dollars in itself.