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Utility Right of Way

ffnc
9 years ago

I apologize if this is the wrong place for my question but it seemed the most logical.

We have lived in our current home on 5 acres for 7 years. We are sandwiched between a 15 acre homestead and an empty 33 acre tract of land that was up until last spring, completely wooded. It was also landlocked unless we and the other 3 homeowners on our private road would be willing to allow them to access it. Also they would have to cross our property and there is no recorded easement.

We met the original owner of the 33 acre tract soon after we moved in and had expressed an interest in purchasing the land, he passed away soon after, the economy tanked, and we put the idea on the back burner.

Fast forward to this spring, we get a knock on our door and it's someone from a logging company representing the landowners next door. He wanted to use our road to access the land for logging. Since we knew our property line was very close to our driveway and barn we asked if there was a way to negotiate a bit of a buffer in exchange for us allowing them to use our road. He said no, the contract had been signed. He was basically a bully and threw out several rather frightening suggestions of what could/would happen if they had to cut a road in behind us from the main road. He left with no answer, my husband and i were very frightened and immediately contacted a surveyor to determine where our property line fell exactly. I was adamant that I did not want them to use our road. We never heard back from him until the day they started cutting, he called, we said no and they immediately starting cutting in a new one. We never heard from the actual land owners.

Unfortunately for us they clear cut the land, in some places there are completely bare spots on our property line where there are no trees blocking the barren view.

We've contacted them kindly twice since the logging and asked if they would be willing to sell us all the land, or a portion of the land, or even a thin buffer so we can let the trees regrow, once they said yes then they became very vague and non committal.

A month ago they started bulldozing and moving stumps. My husband asked one of the gentleman what they were doing and he said they were planning on bringing in a modular house and that they would be talking to us about electricity soon.

2 weeks ago they started burning with no notice, one night the burn pile was so huge we called the fire department to make sure it was okay. It is very close to our house. The piles have been going for days on end and our house is full of smoke and we have ashes all over our cars.

Yesterday we learned they plan to run their road right against our property line making it clear they have no interest in working with us on a buffer.

My question is this. They are going to come to us soon and ask to connect to our transformer. They have no other options for power. It will be very expensive for them because it's a long distance and because it will go underground. They cannot do this unless we grant a right of way which for any number of reasons I don't feel particularly willing to do at this point. Aside from the fact they have been less than neighborly, the power line will have to go all the way across are pasture, we can never have a pond or pool or build anything there. If were were to consider this at all, is there a dollar amount you would think fair? Would you even consider this? I don't want to start a feud but I don't feel very neighborly any more.

Sorry for the length of this post, any suggestions or thoughts would be welcome. Thank you!

Comments (19)

  • jewelisfabulous
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would allow them to hook into the power IF they work with you on establishing a permanent buffer (or transfer a piece of land to you to own) AND if the power line is run along the border of your pasture and not though the middle. Also ask for replacement trees to be planted in the buffer zone or money so you can replace the trees. And, I would ask for professional duct cleaning and HVAC cleaning services to be paid given the smoke and ash their burn caused your house.

    The agreement needs to be written up in a formal legal document which you will review with your attorney before signing. If they're not willing to do any of that, tell them to take a hike.

    In the meantime, hither thee to the nearest courthouse and file the buffer zone request with the county to prevent them from obtaining a variance to cut a road so close to your property.

  • beesneeds
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I feel for ya ffnc.. I too would be feeling less than neighborly in your situation. I'm feeling like a big ole screw you actually, but that might not be the wisest thing.

    I'm curious as to what, if anything, the other 3 landowners you share the road with have to say about this situation? I mean, if that road is the only way in, they surely must have something to say about it. And if the company started cutting in a new road, whos property were they cutting on if they are landlocked?

    I agree with Jewels advice. And I would also suggest you check into what air rights are for you. As in, can they string line in the air over your property free and clear or no? Can you secure that air if it is something that is done in your area? If air rights are a thing in your area, and running line along a buffer area is not possible, you might want to lease the air rights for a large sum if they want power.

    What's a fair price for it all? I have no idea, but perhaps you might want to hit up your local town hall/zoning comissioner or a commercial real estate agency to help you figure it out.

    And out of curiosity, do you have any idea what those folks are planning on doing with the property? Just clearing out trees, or turning it to farmland, or even building a bunch of new homes there? That might make a difference in what action you take now. If someone is just clearing out, that's one thing, but if you are prospectively looking at a dozen new neighbors, that might be another whole ball of wax.

  • ffnc
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    thanks for the great responses, the land has already been clear cut, the logging company had to cut in a new road to access it at a great expense I'm sure. Since they would have had to cross our land to access the logging site, the loggers came to us first before they talked to our neighbors. If we would have considered it we would have had to get our neighbors to agree which was unlikely unless we would have received some sort of payment, or improvement to our road.

    Jewel, I'm curious about your suggestion of a buffer zone request. I looked on our county website and didn't see anything mentioned. I will check into it tomorrow.

    We are in a rural county and I am finding in general that NC does not offer many landowner protections or rights. It's very frustrating. In regards to the burning i checked with our local forest ranger station which is just up the road. He basically said there's nothing I can do. He said I can try to contact the department who handles air quality in raleigh but he said it's next to impossible to get them to come out unless it's something big.

    As for construction my understanding is that they are moving in a modular house and will build a larger house in 5 years. They are planning a pond and possibly 2 other houses in the next 10 years for family members.

    We are currrently working with a landscaper to find a way to rework things so it will be more pleasant. We plan to plant lots of trees and build lots of fences!! Hopefully we can get some money to help pay for all of this!

  • jewelisfabulous
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    *Jewel, I'm curious about your suggestion of a buffer zone request. I looked on our county website and didn't see anything mentioned. I will check into it tomorrow.*

    When my house was being built, the developer intended to file a variance so he didn't have to adhere to the "set-back" and could position the house just *this much* inside the property line. Suspecting that this was about to happen, our neighbor to the east got to the courthouse first to file her request that the codes department turn down the developer's request for the variance. All I knew was that I received a call from the developer saying that the lot wasn't wide enough for the three car garage we wanted, so would a two car garage be acceptable? A year or two after we moved in, our neighbor told us "the rest of the story".

    Apparently, the bordering neighbors aren't given a courtesy "heads up" when a variance request is granted. I think this is very wrong and that the bordering neighbors should have to agree with it.

  • beesneeds
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ok ffnc.. from what I'm getting, they have cut their own road now, so the mutual private lane between you and 3 other land owners is no longer in debate?
    And the land is not being developed for something like a subdivision, but rather a multi-family property? Potentially that is. If so, at least you would only have to deal with one family, and not a whole bunch of folks.

    The good neighbor in me suggests you contact the property owners to talk about this. Not the folks clearing the land, but the actual land owners. See if you guys can come to an accord- then make sure you get it down on paper, notarized.

    And just the super jerk in me suggests... since you have had the land lines surveyed, take the time now to mark those lines. Drive in poles or stakes, lie in a line of caltrops. Put up no trespassing signs lit up with solar spot lights so it's clear, night and day. Whatever you need to do to clearly define the property line now.

    If you can, I would suggest that if ANYTHING is going on/across your property, you put a halt to it right now. Don't just allow it to go on, because that could possibly be used to your disfavor later. Your not stopping it could be construed as unspoken consent.

    From my own experience.. We purchased a property with an easement that opened to 11 acres behind us- it was once all one property, but the owners had to split it and sell off the house portion. They are awesome. Now they have decided to give up the property, and we are land contracting it, to avoid the potential not good neighbor action that might otherwise get into our property. Across the back of the 11 acres, is another neighbor that likes to come across the back- we have had to take action to prevent it, lest he file that we gave "unspoken consent" to use the property. By essentially not saying no. On the other side of the back 11 is a poacher who likes to set up tree stands and we have had to take measures there too. On our house property we have a neighbor that likes to bury trucks in our yard, baha 4 wheelers across our lawn, and mow down my 150 year old rose bushes- and after years of verbal agreements, I finally had to take action with a big fence- after getting the property line properly surveyed.

  • ffnc
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    all good advice, we did just have the land surveyed so all of the markers are up and very clear. Up until the original owner died he had a hand shake deal with us and all of the previous owners of our land to use the gate to access the property for hunting and such. After he died every Tom, Dick and Harry started showing up saying they had a deal with this person or that to use the property. People were parking their trucks along our driveway and going in on 4 wheelers with guns strapped on, it was crazy. We posted tons of no trespassing signs and called the police regularly, We are going to take down the gate this weekend. The actual dirt two track they used was destroyed when they did the logging so no one will need to access it anymore. I would hate for someone to get any ideas about using that entrance ever again!

    As for the owners, we have spoken with them several times but they are not neighborly at all, they are very non committal. I'm waiting for them to come to us about the electrical, it's really their problem not ours, I just want to be prepared with a plan when they do come.

  • dekeoboe
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We are also in rural NC and to burn, you need a burn permit from the county. It doesn't cost for the permit, but you do have to have access to water for a burn permit. Does your county not have the same?

    Also, have you checked to see if they have a building permit? If they are putting in a modular house they will have to have electricity and water. Whatever they have submitted to the building department should be available for you to review. Their plan should indicate where things will be located on the property. Also, make sure you know what the set-backs are for your area.

  • kirkhall
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You really should discuss this with an attorney. You have something very valuable--power access. It has a value though (the cost to run their own), so you can't ask for the moon. But, a reasonable buffer should be able to be negotiated.

    BUT, your BEST bet really is to talk with an attorney. Do a free consultation first, then work from there. You could get royally screwed otherwise, with an "agreement" that is really one-sided.

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Even in a rural county, there are setback requirements. You need to research what local building codes you have in effect in addition to the national building codes which every state has adopted. Enforcement is another matter, but a visit to the local office as soon as the doors open is in order.

  • ffnc
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I stopped by the county permitting office today and spoke with someone from the planning department. I learned that out in the county there are no setbacks, it's completely unregulated. But I also learned that the neighbors have filed no permits and they are supposed to have one in order to do the stump clearing and such. The person from the county wants me to call the soil and water conservation officer tomorrow. My intention is not to get the neighbor into trouble so I'm just going to let it go, but good info to keep in our back pocket in case something happens. We've decided to contact our lawyer tomorrow. Thanks so much for all of the good advice!

  • ncrealestateguy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You may want to get a second opinion on whether or not the lot has setbacks. I have never seen a rural lot w/o setbacks. I was always under the assumption that all lots w/in a county has default setbacks set by the county, and then if the subdivision or other regulatory body dictates more strict setbacks, then those rule over the county's.
    Have you never had your lot surveyed? If you have, look at it and see what the setbacks are marked as.

  • dekeoboe
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    But I also learned that the neighbors have filed no permits and they are supposed to have one in order to do the stump clearing and such. The person from the county wants me to call the soil and water conservation officer tomorrow. My intention is not to get the neighbor into trouble so I'm just going to let it go, but good info to keep in our back pocket in case something happens

    Not a good idea to wait as it will be too late. One of the reasons for the permits and why soil and water conservation is involved is because of erosion control. You do not want what they have done to their land to lead to water and erosion issues on your land.

    Which county are you in?

    I hope your lawyer is well versed in these type issues.

  • christopherh
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You say you don't want to get the neighbor in trouble. Why? From what you say they aren't neighborly and it seems they don't care about you at all.

    You're not getting them into trouble, they're getting themselves into trouble by ignoring the law. All you're doing is protecting your property.

    Time to let the attorney do his/her job.

  • cearbhaill (zone 6b Eastern Kentucky)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "You're not getting them into trouble, they're getting themselves into trouble by ignoring the law. All you're doing is protecting your property. "

    Wise words.
    Erosion has no cheap or easy fix.

  • GreenDesigns
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Starting off a relationship with a neighbor with rude behavior and illegal actions is a portend for the future. Backing down from any confrontation over that will likely stamp you as an easy victim of whatever they want to do in their eyes. No one likes confrontation. However, you do not have to confront them. The Soils people will handle that.

    Don't back down to bullies. That just gives them permission to bully you further.

  • ffnc
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    okay, i called the conservation officer and left a message, you guys definitely changed our mind. I'll let you know if I hear anything. At this point we have nothing to lose, we need to just take care of our property. thanks again guys for the really helpful suggestions!

  • ncrealestateguy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In your first post you say that you hired a surveyor to make sure you knew exactly where your lot lines were. The survey should have the setbacks drawn on it. Have you checked?

  • GaryFx
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A quick web search turned up an article on NC zoning which asserts that as of 1998, only 68 of the 100 counties in NC have zoning laws, and of those 68, only 41 apply the zoning countywide.

    I'm used to setbacks being part of zoning laws, but I suppose that could vary from state to state. But regardless, these numbers might explain why there's a variety of experiences concerning setbacks.

  • ffnc
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    yes, you're exactly right, some parts of our county do have zoning laws, but "out in the county" where we are they do not. Building codes are in effect so there are some setbacks involved there, well and septic placement, house placement etc. It's kind of frightening when you realize the limited protection landowners have in some of these situations. We've learned a lot of hard lessons.

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