Get in touch with as many different RE companies from the town and get their recommendations (hopefully it's a large town). If 1-2 names keep coming up, call them, ask for a) qualifications, and b) references that you can check - not all new ones. Then make a decision.

It's a pretty tiny town, actually. :) But by going through Google and a few different inspectors' organizations, I can turn up about a dozen names that service the county as a whole.

Anyone have any strong opinions about the organizations, by the way? NACHI? NAHI? ASHI?

First and foremost, find out if the state licenses home inspectors. If so, make sure the inspector you hire has a license in good standing...no complaints. You can do this by contacting the state licensing authority.

Even if not required by law, you want to hire an HI who carries Errors & Omissions insuranceŅwhich gives you financial recourse if he does miss somethingas even the best can make mistakes. You also want to verify that his insurance is in effect and has not been cancelled due to non-payment or too may claims.
Liability insurance only covers the HI if he should damage something in the home.

I don't advise going to Realtors for referrals...especially as you are out of state and won't be able to attend the inspection. You will have zero way of knowing if the HIÂs are being referred because they cater to the REAÂs in terms of not reporting things that could kill the dealÂor if they are indeed great referrals. AS realtors make zero money if the home is not sold, it is a conflict of interest for the buyer to rely upon REAÂs for HI referrals as some tend to refer HIÂs who wonÂt raise any red flags. Forewarned is forearmed.

Hopefully you have an attorney in the state to which you are moving to handle the closing; ask him/her for referralsÂor if in the area you have business associates, ask themÂas well as family or friends.

The various professional organizations, such as ASHI, NAHI, NACHI etc are really not meaningful to the consumer in terms of being assured a quality inspectionÂthey all operate on the honor system and rarely if ever exert any consequence for those who violate SOPÂs or COEÂs.

Best bet is to make sure the HI provides a pre-inspection agreement BEFORE you commit to hiring. This way you can see what is and is not coveredÂas you may need to hire other professionals for things beyond the scope of a home inspection (termites (aka wood destroying insects), radon, mold, septic, underground oil tanks, etc)

If the HI claims to be able to do all, ask for documentation of certifications in those areasÂand check to see if the state requires separate licensing for any of these thingsÂ..because in many cases they do. If no licensing is required for other services, better bet is to hire specialists in each outside disciplineÂas many of the certification courses that HI take are not as comprehensive as they need to be in order for your interests to be best served. Also, the HI insurance generally just covers the home inspectionÂso ask for documentation that he is insured for any additional services he may offer.

An average 2500 SF home in average condition should take at MINIMUM 2.50 hours to inspectÂ..more often longer if issues are found. This is NOT including the time it takes to do the report. Make sure you donÂt hire someone who gives a same day check list or same day computer generated report. These only provide you with the bare minimum of infoÂ.and serve the HI more than you, as he is able to perform more inspections if he does not take time to write a comprehensive report.

The report should be a narrative about the specific houseÂnot filled with boiler plate about houses in general. It should include digital photos of any problems found with explanations of the findings.

Definitely check references from buyers who bought a year or so ago. Ask how long the inspection tookÂdid he miss anythingÂ..especially majorÂ.and if so, how did he respond to them when they notified him of the error.
Their responses will give you a good idea of the quality of work that the HI performs.

There is no guarantee, but these things will go a long way in helping you hire someone who has a very good chance of doing the job correctly.

Last but not leastÂrememberÂÂyou get what you pay forÂ..so going with the lowest bidder is not in your best interests with this kind of investment.

Best wishes.

Older homes generally take longer to inspect as they tend to have more issues and variations....

That said, best bet is to try to hire someone with a lot of experience with homes of that age...and the references you check should be with buyers who bought old homes.

Chances are the inspection will take longer than average due to the age of the home...and the cost may be a bit higher as well.

Last but not least, FYI, homes of that age usally have knob & tube wiring if the wiring has not yet been updated. If so, most home insureres will no longer insure homes with such wiring unless it is replaced or an electrician can guarantee it is in PERFECT condition..which is very hard to do as most can't be seen as it is behind walls; therefore few if any electricians will go on record with such a statement.
Although it is technically safe, it is inadequate for today's loads and electronics, parts are not easy to find...and most knob and tube will show signs of age and wear an tear.

Once again...best wishes.

You absolutely need an inspector who specializes in old homes. I would not trust an inspector who only works in newer subdivisions - they won't have a clue about the peculiarities of old homes. I would ask realtors for references specifically for old home inspectors....or see if you can identify them yourself in the research you do. Check with the local historical association in the new area and see if they have referrals.

Please do not even bother with a new home inspector - you'll be wasting your money.

kec01: "Check with the local historical association in the new area and see if they have referrals."

EXCELLENT suggestion. :-D

The local historical society said I was ingenious for thinking to ask them...but they didn't have any references. :)

Thanks for all the input, I've started making contact with a few inspectors!

Alison:

You didn't mention in what part of the country the the house is located. The Historic Building Inspectors Association is a great resource. If there are no members in the area you're relocating to, their website will at least be a good source of information.

I did find that site on Google, but thanks! We're buying in the Northwest and they don't have many resources up there I don't think.

Good news: I found one inspector who seems to be right along the lines of what has been suggested to me here! He gave me a sample report of a house about the same age and condition as the one I'm interested in, and it was great, lots of photos and house-specific descriptions, a little filler (mostly general information about older homes which I appreciated!) He'll be high in the running when we need an inspection, though I'll still contact a couple other names first I think.

Bad news: for now, the sale seems to have fallen through. :( Hopefully all the advice here will stand us in good stead before too long though! :)

AS realtors make zero money if the home is not sold, it is a conflict of interest for the buyer to rely upon REAs for HI referrals as some tend to refer HIs who wont raise any red flags. Forewarned is forearmed.

I've heard this on here before from Logic and I'm sure I'll hear it again. He/she is correct, realtors make zero money if the home is not sold, however, whether the buyer buys this house or another, the realtor will get paid.

2nd: Realtors in an area get to know who the better inspectors, mortgage officers, attys etc are. They tend to refer the ones that get the job done and get it done right. As I've said before, the people that I refer, are the same ones that I use when I purchase my own properties.

3rd. I just had a home inspection today with some first time buyers who wanted to use a home inspector that their parents used when buying their house. Here goes:

1. He was from out of my area, and was not familiar with well and septic. He made stupid, uneducated comments that made absolutely no sense. The buyer asked if there should be water in the salt tank of the water softner. Here is their inspectors answer: Uhhh, yeah, you should get a UV Light, because it kills bacteria. I was stunned.

2. We made our way over to the furnace, he called it a boiler (forced air heat) and felt the side of it. "This is turned way up and sounds fine". "Everything is good with this". Never looked to see if the firebox was cracked or anything.

3. Back outside and mentions the well, of course he never took a water test sample. He says, again, get the UV light, otherwise you will get sick. There is bacteria in those things. The homeowner is 90 years old and has lived in the house for 54 years. Guess he doesnt drink the water huh?

I asked the inspector if he would be leaving a radon test? Keep in mind, he is from 2 hours south where there is essentially no radon, however it is very high in my entire region. He says "well I wasnt going to, but if you want that, its an additional $200. I said $200 for a radon test? He says, "yeah, but I'll do it for free". (friend of the buyers father)The buyer says, what exactly is radon? "Uh, well, its a um, gas that sorta comes out of the ground, uh, you dont have any cracks in your foundation, so you don't have any radon. It will be ok.". After I give him the real definition of radon, and tell him if left undetected can cause lung cancer over long periods of time, he tells the inspector he wants the test. The inspector says, well uh, I can't come back, and looks at me, you'll uh, can you come back to collect the canisters and mail them to the lab?"

HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE....if you trust your agent, there is no reason NOT to ask them for an inspector referral.

"AS realtors make zero money if the home is not sold, it is a conflict of interest for the buyer to rely upon REAs for HI referrals as some tend to refer HIs who wont raise any red flags. Forewarned is forearmed.
I've heard this on here before from Logic and I'm sure I'll hear it again. He/she is correct, realtors make zero money if the home is not sold, however, whether the buyer buys this house or another, the realtor will get paid."

Linda, what if the deal falls through and your buyer decides not to buy the house. In fact, they decide not to buy a house at all. They want to rent instead. Or, they use a different realtor for the next purchase. Do you still get paid?

Agreed, that inspector is uneducated, inexperienced and an embarrassment to the profession.

Linda, what if the deal falls through and your buyer decides not to buy the house. In fact, they decide not to buy a house at all. They want to rent instead. Or, they use a different realtor for the next purchase. Do you still get paid?

Van, no the realtor doesnt get paid if they use a different realtor or decide to rent. I don't go into transactions thinking to myself, I have got to get this one to close or they are going to find another realtor or they are going to rent or Im not going to get paid. I go into each transaction thinking that buyer is a future client and this is not the only transaction I will be handeling for them. If I refer a home inspector to a potential buyer that doesnt do a good job, they will no doubt be unhappy. To me, that means, no future business from that client. The business is built on repeat referrals from clients, not one sale.

Here is one agent I agree with in using an HI.
Home inspection risk reduction

BY BARBARA NICHOLS
In real estate, surprises are never good. And when they involve property condition, surprises can mean liability for sellers and real estate salespeople.

One way to avoid surprises--whether you represent the buyer or the selleris to stress the importance of a home inspection. Then follow up with these additional risk-reduction steps:
· Get it in writing. Simply telling a buyer to do an inspection does little to reduce your risk of being sued. Without documentation, you could claim, "I told the buyer to have an inspection, but he didnt want to spend the money," and the buyer could counter with, "My agent told me an inspection was a waste of money." Dont leave it to a jury to decide whos telling the truth.

Include an inspection addendum in standard contracts, specifically advising the buyer to have a general inspection and the appropriate specialty inspections for local issues such as earthquakes, termites, and landslides.
· Put a buyer who refuses on notice. Ask buyers who opt out of inspections to sign a statement that reads: "Against the strong recommendation of the listing agent and seller, I have elected not to fully inspect this property and assume all liability for any property flaws discovered after the transaction closes that such an inspection would have revealed."
· Repeat it. A buyer can claim not to have read or understood an inspection advisory if it was buried in the fine print. But if you include your advisory in a separate document and in bold type, request signatures, and even repeat your warnings, buyers will have a harder time convincing a jury they didnt understand it or realize its importance.
· Invite everyone to the inspection. If youre the buyers rep encourage the buyer, listing agent, and seller to attend the inspection. The buyer can ask the inspector questions and the inspector can ask the seller questions. So, many issues can be resolved on the spot in the presence of witnesses.
· Encourage the use of additional inspectors as needed. If the general inspector says to call in a specialist, advise the buyer in writing to do so.
· Encourage sellers to disclose. If the seller knows about a problem--even if inspectors dont find it--they should disclose it in writing. Many states require sellers to complete and sign a written property condition disclosure form, but such a form is a good idea even in states where caveat emptor is still the rule.
· Disclose any material facts you know. If you know that the area has a history of land settling, for example, or that the house is on the airport flight path, disclose it. A fact is considered material if it potentially affects the price or the buyers decision to buy.
· Never evaluate or interpret property condition. Dont call cracks "minor" or an unlevel floor "normal settling." State what you observe without any evaluation of significance or cause. When disclosing something the seller told you, state the problem in writing and that you havent verified or investigated it yourself.
· Be sure the inspector is qualified. Some buyers reps shy away from recommending an inspector for fear of liability. But if your client selects a bad inspector, your risk of being sued increases whether you recommended the inspector or not. Even if your liability doesnt increase, your reputation suffers from a bad inspector.

The smartest course is to recommend several well-qualified inspectors and advise buyers to get references and ask about experience, credentials, report content, cost, and insurance coverage.

Recommend only those inspectors who are qualified and whod appear so to a court. The inspectors I recommend must hold a general contracting license (personally, not just the company); belong to the American Society of Home Inspectors or the state professional association; and have liability insurance and errors and omissions coverage. Few states have testing or licensing requirements for home inspectors, though a number of state legislatures have inspector licensing laws pending.

To avoid unnecessary risk, dont recommend any inspectors affiliated with your company.

If you represent the seller, you rarely have input on the inspector, but a poor inspection still puts you and the seller at risk. Consider requiring in the counteroffer that the buyer select an inspector with certain minimum requirements. A good inspection may cost more, but its worth every penny.

Barbara Nichols, a licensed real estate broker and general contractor, owns Nichols Real Estate and General Contracting in Los Angeles. She often serves as a consultant and expert witness, and wrote the pamphlet You Must Have Inspection Protection. She can be reached at 310/273-6369 or www.homesavvy.com.

Good post, Berniek.

Also, Linda117; Clearly the HI to whom you refer sounds like he is a few cards short of a full intelligence deck.

Be that as it may, especially since we have been over this before, and I even provided a link for you in order that you would be able to familairize yourself with the NYS proposed regs, I'm not clear on why you still expect any HI to do the following, unless the buyer has a signed agreement from the HI stating that he performs the following ancillary services as well as the fees that will be charged, as they are NOT part of a home inspection in NYS:

One more time...

From the NYS Division of Licensing Services:

What is Home Inspection?

Home Inspection is defined as the process by which a home inspector observes and provides a written report of the systems and components of a residential building including but not limited to:
A. Heating System
B. Cooling System
C. Plumbing System
D. Electrical System
E Structural Components - foundation, roof masonry structure, exterior and interior components or any other related residential building component recommended by the Home Inspection Council and implemented by the Department through the regulatory process.

2. Home inspectors are not required to:

b. Inspect or evaluate a heat exchanger;

3. Home inspectors are not required to:

g. Inspect water conditioning equipment including softener and filter systems;

i. Inspect private water supply systems;

l. Evaluate the condition and operation of water wells and related pressure tanks and pumps; the quality or quantity of water from on-site water supplies or the condition and operation of on-site sewage disposal systems such as cesspools, septic tanks, drain fields, related underground piping, conduit, cisterns and equipment

Also, van 356 may correct me, but as far as I know one CAN have a boiler for a forced hot air system.

In addition, in most if not all heating units, it is impossible to see the entire heat exchanger without dismatling to some degree...which is why HI's in NY are not required to inspect it. IN NJ they are...but IMO, it is a misleading regulation, because unless the HI very carefully explains in his report that only a portion could be seen which does not mean that the HE is not cracked, then the buyer will have a false sense of security.

That said, once again...HI's CAN indeed perform all sorts of ancillary services...but just because some do so, that does not make them part of a home inspection. They are seperate...many of which requires seperate licensing or certifications by law...and the buyer usually has to pay additonal for each service offered. All buyers should be strongly advised by their REA and/or attorney to check to make sure that the HI is trained, experienced and INSURED for any ancillary service offered...and to check to see if they are in line with state regs for that service...such as registration and/or licensing.

Before asking the HI to perform a radon test (which, BTW, is the buyers decision, not the REA's decision..as the buyer is the paying client) did you check to see if the character was even registered in NYS to perform a radon test??

You may indeed only refer HI's that you belive to be thorough, but your lack of knowledge and understanding about the SOP's governing the profession can greatly hinder you in accomplshing your goal.

"Also, van 356 may correct me, but as far as I know one CAN have a boiler for a forced hot air system."

Yes, a hot water boiler can be used as the heat source for a forced air heating system. It's called a hydro-air system.

It doesn't do the H.I. any good calling a furnace a boiler and vise versa. BTW, Several times I've heard plumbers and heating contractors call a hot water boiler a furnace. Go figure.

That was pretty good advice given by Barbara Nichols - except for this: "Invite everyone to the inspection. If youre the buyers rep encourage the buyer, listing agent, and seller to attend the inspection. The buyer can ask the inspector questions and the inspector can ask the seller questions. So, many issues can be resolved on the spot in the presence of witnesses."

It's not an agent's place to invite 'everyone' to the inspection. To even suggest such a thing strikes me as real chutzpah. Maybe protocols are different where she is, but that wouldn't fly at one of my inspections.

In my area, buyer's agents typically don't attend the inspection, the seller is typically told by their agent to not be there during the inspection and listing agents are almost never seen. Maybe I'm spoiled.

While I have on occasion benefited from being able to ask the seller a question, I'd much rather that he not be there. If I find the seller is home and it appears that he is staying, I take the buyer aside and ask that in the interest of getting the best inspection possible, that he have no interaction with the seller during the inspection. I also talk to the seller and diplomatically ask that he leave the buyer and me to ourselves. Occasionally an anal seller will insist on following along, which is his right since it's his house. When that happens I make it clear to the seller that he has no role in the inspection process and he is not to interfere in any way.

I take my job very seriously. I need to control the inspection process and I do that. Another part of that is limiting who the buyer brings to the inspection. After the inspection is booked, I send the buyer this:

"Thank you for choosing ******* to perform your home inspection. In an effort to help you get the most from your inspection, I would like to offer some helpful suggestions.

A large part of the value of our service is our interaction as we go through the house. Weve found that this is best accomplished when the inspection is attended by just the buyers and the inspector. This reduces distractions that often occur when children or other family members, friends, and contractors are at the property during the inspection. While buyers agents are welcome to attend, their office policy may not encourage them to. When we schedule the inspection with the listing agency, they assume that just the inspector and buyers will be in their home. If youd like to show the house to your family and friends, its best to set up another appointment with your agent.

Past clients have said that they learned a lot about their house and we consider this education to be a great benefit of our service. As we go through the inspection together, feel free to ask questions. If you have any questions before the inspection, please dont hesitate to call me on my cell phone at **********."

I do a walk and talk inspection. As the buyer and I go through the house, I record notes on a voice recorder and take pictures, so there is a natural flow to the inspection, with no stopping to type or write. A 2,000 SF house in decent condition takes an average of three and a half hours, with roughly the same amount of time to put the report together later. The time spent at the house is for inspecting. It's not the time to have contractors over to take measurements, not the time to have aunt Edna and Uncle Charlie over to see the new house and it's not the time to have the buyer's agent discuss other business with the buyer.

On the furnace/boiler issue ...... since a furnace is "an enclosure in which energy in a non-thermal form is converted to heat", a boiler is technically a furnace. Still, You'd never hear me refer to a boiler a a furnace. Hearing it would grate on me, pretty much the same as hearing 'hot water heater' does.

Joe

Logic I'm well aware of what home inspectors can and can't do to the degree that I need to be. I was not expecting the home inspector to fully inspect the furnace, but I do expect him to do more than feel it and say, "its all good". The home inspectors that I am used to referring will look inside (and Im not sure what the opening is called, I'm not an inspector, plumber or heating technician) to see if the firebox is cracked. They will check the motor for oil and/or gas leaks, they will measure for carbon monoxide.They will comment on the approximate age, the maintenance, and the approximate life expectancy. He did none of this. If there are any problems with any of this, they will refer the buyer to the appropriate party.

They dont inspect the well and Im not sure where in my post you think I said that. I simply said he was not familiar with well and septic. Clearly, this was true when he made the comment twice about the well being full of bacteria and "those things will make you sick". I didnt expect him to inspect those things but I did expect him to explain how those systems worked to the buyer. They usually do a septic dye test on home inspections in my area and they do take water samples and send them out for bacteria tests. In some towns we have mandatory water testing that encompasses about 300 other tests (chemicals, more detailed bacteria, sodium etc) on the water which only registered home inspectors with those towns can do.

You keep saying "home inspectors in NY" are not required to do certain things. I dont know if you are talking about NYC or what because they do have different rules there. In my area, it is normal for a home inspector to inspect almost all systems in a house to a degree. If there is an issue, they will refer the buyer to the professional for that system. I never said I expected the inspector to check the well and/or the water softener, however they should have a basic knowledge of how it works to educate their buyers on "that" system. Him giving an answer to the buyer about getting a UV Light for bacteria when the buyer asked about the salt tank was incredible.

Logic, I don't have a lack of knowledge about the SOP's. I don't need to know what they are to know what a thorough inspection is. I've been on hundreds of them and when one isnt done in the manner that the rest are, it stands out like a fish out of water.

Before asking the HI to perform a radon test (which, BTW, is the buyers decision, not the REA's decision..as the buyer is the paying client) did you check to see if the character was even registered in NYS to perform a radon test??

Where in my post does it say I asked the HI to perform the radon test? I asked him IF he was doing one? The buyer made the decision to do the test even though it was clear the inspector didnt want to waste his time. These were first time home buyers that didn't have a clue. A radon test in my area is done on probably 98% of all home inspections and is included with the way home inspectors in my area set their rates. I knew he didn't think it was a big deal because he is from an area that radon isnt prevelant.

Home inspectors have to be licensed in NY. My area has a very high level of radon. If an inspector isnt registered, it is up to him to say that, not me to ask. Honestly, I have my doubts that he was even licensed, another reason to go with a referral from a trusted agent.

So, now my reason for coming back to this post to begin with before I got sidetracked in defending my every comment to Logic once again . During the home inspection, the HI was up on a ladder with his head up in the attic. He came down with "huge eyes" like he had seen a ghost. He said, "there is a huge, HUGE nest up there". I said "nest?", what kind of nest? He said, "I dont know, but its huge, maybe a raccoon. I didnt see a hole, but I did see the nest." So after the inspection, I had called the listing agent to let her know how things went, and some of the things he said. She said she would have the owners son go up to the attic and get rid of the nest. Last night she calls me back to tell me the owner went up to the attic to clear the "nest". They had put a new roof on last year and the "nest" turned out to be an an extra rolled up pile of insulation that was in the corner of the attic from last years roof job. He he he, another story for the book.

Well, it looks like the deal is back on so I am glad to see this illuminating conversation taking place. ;) Linda, thanks for assuring me that taking the realtor's recommendation isn't the worst thing we could do. We are buying in a small community and my realtor prides himself on a strong network of quality referrals for everything from barber shops to veterinarians. I'm sure he has been diligent about his choices for home-related recommendations. In fact, I somewhat worry about offending him by bringing in our own inspector.

On the other hand, I'd kind of like to have someone in who hasn't inspected the place recently, and since it's been inspected about 4 times since 2006, getting someone from just out of the local area (the guy I spoke with is about 25 miles away but on the same island, so no worries about vastly different conditions where he's from) might be the way to go.

And my husband tends to be quite conservative in assuming that our agent does have a bias, even if subconscious, in favor of selling the home (and selling it at a higher price.) So it might appeal to him to follow logic's advice. ;)

We'll have to make our choice quickly at the beginning of next week, since we need a report in 10 days, so I hope to have good news to report soon! :)

"In my area, buyer's agents typically don't attend the inspection, the seller is typically told by their agent to not be there during the inspection and listing agents are almost never seen. Maybe I'm spoiled."

Different philosophies for different locations. Also that article was about 8 years old and legal opinions on the right or wrong way change with how the wind blows.

Linda1117: "I didnt expect him to inspect those things but I did expect him to explain how those systems worked to the buyer."

Why? If he does not inspect them, and is therefore most likely unfamiliar with them (which is WHY he is not inspecting them as an ancillary service), why in the world ...and how in the world would you expect him to explain them to the buyer??

Your expectations are without foundation.

Linda1117: "They usually do a septic dye test on home inspections in my area and they do take water samples and send them out for bacteria tests."

Again, I'm sure some do...however...these are ANCILLARY services that often mean an additional charge and which the buyer opts for separately.
And, there is a lot more to well testing than testing tap water...such as determining if the well has sufficient water flow and water quantity.
Once again, these are services best left to professionals who are trained and edcuated in inspecting them in a thorough and meaningful manner.

Linda1117: "I asked him IF he was doing one? The buyer made the decision to do the test even though it was clear the inspector didnt want to waste his time"

If the buyer made the decision, the following statment makes no sense: "I asked the inspector if he would be leaving a radon test? Keep in mind, he is from 2 hours south where there is essentially no radon, however it is very high in my entire region. He says "well I wasnt going to, but if you want that, its an additional $200. I said $200 for a radon test? He says, "yeah, but I'll do it for free".

It is not clear why you were involved with asking about a test to be done if the buyer had already ordered it.

...and, I'm amazed that anyone would STILL refer an HI who uses the bogus septic dye test as that only tells one if the septic is functioning at the time..it could crash the next day. An HI who uses a septic dye test is indeed an HI who is not performing a septic inspection in any way that is meaningful. Hmmm..maybe that is WHY they still get referred? After all, a failed septic system is pretty much guaranteed to kill the deal, or at least lower the selling price (less ka-ching for the REA) unless the buyer and/or seller wants to cough up the 25K or more to replace it...

But we have had this discussion before. Clearly you are committed to operating and referring based upon your assumptions..and not reality.

Last but not least, few buyers know their REA at all; usually the first time they meet is when the REA endeavors to work with them to show them homes. That said, the buyer has no basis for "trust".

The bottom line is that the buyer is the HI's client...NOT the REA. And, while the REA would be performing due diligence in cautioning the buyer to make sure that the HI they hire IS licensed and/or certified with regard to any services he may perform, that is where the REA's involvement with the HI should end.

Last but not least, you state that HI's must be licensed in NYS. You are preaching to the choir, as this is the second time that I have provided links for you to familarize yourself with the proposed NYS HI licensing rules.

alison_27 I think you are wise to want an HI who has yet to inspect the house. There is someghing known as paradigm paralysis (the inability or refusal to see beyond the current models of thinking), which can happen at any time to any HI or anyone as we are all human...but it somewhat more likely if someone is looking at something that they already know.

Whatever your choice...make sure it is one with your best interests uppermost...and best wishes for a smooth transaction.

Berniek, this quote form your link says it all.

"As a buyer's agent, you want to provide every possible service to your clients. But sometimes that's just the problem. Don't be tempted to provide a service that's outside your expertise. You're not an inspector, so don't confuse your buyers by acting like one.

AMEN!!!!

"Linda1117: "I didnt expect him to inspect those things but I did expect him to explain how those systems worked to the buyer."

Why? If he does not inspect them, and is therefore most likely unfamiliar with them (which is WHY he is not inspecting them as an ancillary service), why in the world ...and how in the world would you expect him to explain them to the buyer??

Your expectations are without foundation."

Logic, Logic, Logic. The foundation is that even if the inspector is not evaluating the well system, water softener, septic system or whatever, the buyer will ask him how it works, what's that tank do, etc. If he can't answer a simple question like why is there water in the water softener salt tank or what is the of operation of a water softener, he will look like a fool. Even if you're not inspecting septic, well or water softener,etc you better know how they work and how they should be inspected. That is just Inspection101.

Even after he explains BEFORE the inspection that he doesn't inspect septic & well sytems, the buyer will still ask the questions, eg "Why are there two tanks for septic system, why is the well pump at the bottom of the well, etc,etc.

These things are just the reality of the inspection biz. A good inspector has to be knowledgeable about everything the buyer and/or realtor is going to throw at him. And I mean everything.

You can theorize all you want from LogicLand, but until you're out there in the trenches (crawlspaces), you're just speculating about the way it's supposed to work, in this regard.

InspectorJoe H?, feel free to chime in.

It is not clear why you were involved with asking about a test to be done if the buyer had already ordered it.

...and, I'm amazed that anyone would STILL refer an HI who uses the bogus septic dye test as that only tells one if the septic is functioning at the time..it could crash the next day. An HI who uses a septic dye test is indeed an HI who is not performing a septic inspection in any way that is meaningful. Hmmm..maybe that is WHY they still get referred? After all, a failed septic system is pretty much guaranteed to kill the deal, or at least lower the selling price (less ka-ching for the REA) unless the buyer and/or seller wants to cough up the 25K or more to replace it...

Logic, you need to read the post before you comment. The buyer did not already order it. He didnt even know what it was. I clearly stated the buyer asked "what exactly is radon". The inspector wasnt going to do it, wasnt going to mention it. In my area, 98% of local inspectors "INCLUDE IT" as part of their inspection because it is prevelent in the area. They do not reduce the price of their inspection if the person doesnt want it, so YES, IT IS PART OF THE INSPECTION IN MY AREA. YOU BETCHA, Im going to mention it to the home inspector. Do you think I want something like a young couple starting a family living in a house with radon on my conscience? No thank you.

Unfortunately, the septic dye test is all we have right now to "spot" a problem. If the buyer chooses to do a more thorough test, that is their choice. Usually, "a good home inspector" will explain that to the buyer too.

And I love this.....

Last but not least, few buyers know their REA at all; usually the first time they meet is when the REA endeavors to work with them to show them homes. That said, the buyer has no basis for "trust".

Which usually takes some time and the relationship develops into hopefully a trusting one. With your "LOGIC, Logic", I guess he shouldnt trust his home inspector either, because the first time he meets him, he is handing him a check for an inspection and will probably never see him again.

Why do home inspectors think they are GOD because they are not

Logic, I emailed some of your comments to one of the home inspectors that I refer frequently. Since he didnt have all the info, he assumed you were an inspector. His comments are interesting to me since you continuously post about SOP's. Here ya go: :)

It sounds like the inspector you are dealing with is not very experienced in his field. Thats when they usually hide behind the SOP's. Heck I know of some that don't even have moisture meters!!

While he is correct about inspecting heat exchangers, that was not the component you were talking about. You were talking about a firebox which is on some boilers is clearly visible and should always be looked at.

Can you imagine not inspecting the well tank, pressure guage and recovery rate???This inspector again dosen't know how to do it so he hides behind the SOPs .

A boiler is not a forced hot air system. When a boiler and a air handler is used in the same system it is called a Hydro Air system. I guess he dosen't inspect those either.

Those of us who go above and beyond to get additional certifications like Termite, Radon, Mold , IAQ ( Indoor air quality for the inspector who dosent know) Certified to take certain water tests etc... is what makes us better that those who hide behind the SOPs.

AMEN!~

Housemaster Schedule A Inspection includes HEAT EXCHANGERS right in there Brochure so this is not true when HI say that do not inspect heat exchanger I have this is black and white

nallie, it depends upon the regulations in the state where you live. However...one should ask Housemaster how they fully inspect the HE if it is not fully visible without dismantling...which is many states one must be a licensed HVAC tech to do so...

As far as your question about HI's thinking they are God. Hopefully Van 356 will respond, as he seems to believe he is "all knowing". ;-)

Oh..and Linda 1117? Your "Home inspector" is incorrect on a few things; clearly he is big on assumptions as well.

First and foremost, I am NOT a home inspector...I consult to the profession as an adjunct to a law practice....and as such, my perspective is entirely different from those "in the trenches". My perspective is derived from the missteps taken by those in the trenches...and the trouble they get into by failing to clearly delineate the limitations of their scope of practice.

That established, odd that your HI..whom I assume you think is knowledgeable...does not realize that the term firebox is another term for heat exchanger. You specifically stated "
I am used to referring will look inside (and Im not sure what the opening is called, I'm not an inspector, plumber or heating technician) to see if the firebox is cracked"

The heat exchanger IS the component that could crack. See below:

http://www.content4reprint.com/home/home-improvement/organizing/how-many-btus-does-your-furnace-give-you-from-your-fuel-source.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=HU16xfASjeIC&pg=PT199&lpg=PT199&dq=%22Heat+exchanger%22+%22firebox%22&source=web&ots=FMyt7JZFoi&sig=xHQQJW9_5JQda8ycCwxPexYp75A&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result

And.while on some boilers the HE may be clearly visible, that only accounts for "some"...which are indeed the minority. And....why he is discussing boilers is not clear as he has zero evidence that this unit was indeed a boiler.

In addition, some cracks are not even that visible if one can see the entire HE. I have known instances where HVAC techs have disagreed on the presence of HE cracks.

That said, HI's should not hide behind the SOP's. However, they should fully disclose to their clients which services they are providing above and beyond...and offer documentation of their training and experience AND insurance in those areas...as they are NOT part of a home inspection. Otherwise, clients are misled to believe that their HI license assures that they are trained in such.which is untrue.

Otherwise the HI is not hiding behind the SOPshe is hiding behind his HI license to deceive buyers into believing that he is trained in services beyond the scope, when he is not...

I never said that an HI should NOT inspect beyond the SOP's. My position is that IF the HI wishes to do so, he must take the responsibility of getting the proper training licenses certifications, AND insurance, etc...and provide such to his client on a separate agreement in order that the client be fully informed.

And..back to the radon. OK. Here is how you have explained it:

1) Despite the fact that the area in which you practice is radon laden, you dont explain this to your buyer up front.
2) When they tell you they have hired an HI referred by their dad, you dont advise them to make sure that he is certified in radon testingand that they should have a test done for their own safety.
3) When the HI finishes up, you THEN decide to ask him if he is going to test for radon. However, as your buyers were not informed about radon by their trustworthy REA, they havent a clue about what radon even is, so they did not make arrangement with the HI ahead of time in order to insure that he was certified and prepared to test.

Is that the sum of it?

If so, hopefully you will better inform your clients next time around.

Last but not leastthere IS another option for your buyers in terms of septic testing; the same one buyers must use here in NJas HIs are not permitted to perform septic testingunless they hold a R.E.H.S licenseand only a handful do
Tell your buyers just how bogus the dye test is, and advise them to use an experienced reputable septic testing company to perform the testwhich would include digging up the Dbox, camera scoping etc.

These firms DO exist in NYS. There is your option. Problem solved. :-D

Ohand Van356? Any HI who is knowledgeable enough about a systembe it a water softener, sprinklers, etcbetter inspect them BEFORE he explains to the client how they work. Otherwise, he screws with his credibility because if he knows so much..why NOT inspect themto make sure they are functioning as the HI states they should function. Explaining HOW something works does not help a buyer once they move in and the item in question totally malfunctions.

Rule of thumb. Do not pontificate about systems that you have not inspectedand therefore have zero clue if they will function as you say they willas it does not benefit the client and only serves to make it seem as if you did not perform a complete job.

"As far as your question about HI's thinking they are God. Hopefully Van 356 will respond, as he seems to believe he is "all knowing". ;-)"

Amen, brother.

Van356: "Amen, brother"

LOL!! "sister" is more like it!

Just goes to show...some are not as "all knowing" as they may believe themselves to be. :-)

2. Home inspectors are not required to:

b. Inspect or evaluate a heat exchanger;

Housemasters plainly advertise this in there brochures, how can they inspect something if they are not qualified to do so, is this not fraudulent advertising.
I don't a HE but your remark Home Inspectors are not required to inspect HE Iam saying that Housemasters say they do.

First and foremost, I am NOT a home inspector...I consult to the profession as an adjunct to a law practice....and as such, my perspective is entirely different from those "in the trenches". My perspective is derived from the missteps taken by those in the trenches...and the trouble they get into by failing to clearly delineate the limitations of their scope of practice.

The HI that inspected this house was not qualified or capable and clearly was negligent in all aspects on the inspection of this house and he professes to be NAHI and advertises as such but is not on the list is this not fraud?

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF MONTANA:

Section 1. Short title. [Sections 1 through 5] may be cited as the "Home Inspection Trade Practices Act".

Section 2. Definitions. As used in [sections 1 through 5], the following definitions apply:

(1) "Home inspection" means a physical examination of a residential dwelling to identify major defects in various attributes of or attachments to the dwelling, including mechanical, electrical, and plumbing systems in addition to structural and other essential components. Home inspections are performed for compensation and employ visual observation and the testing of user controls but not mathematical or specialized engineering sciences.

(2) "Home inspection report" is a written document prepared by a home inspector for a client and issued to the client in exchange for compensation after a home inspection has been completed. The report must clearly identify and describe:

(a) the inspected systems, structures, and other relevant components of the dwelling;

(b) any major visible defects in the inspected systems, structures, and other relevant components of the dwelling; I have major repair that should have been identified by the inspector but were passed as good

(c) any recommendations for further evaluation of the property by other appropriate persons. None was

(3) "Home inspector" is a person who performs a home inspection for compensation. Plus he got a Kickback also

Section 4. Requirement -- prohibitions. (1) A home inspector shall issue a home inspection report to a client after completing a home inspection unless the client agrees in writing to release the home inspector from this obligation. I never wrote anything releasing HI

(2) A home inspector may not:

(a) disclose information concerning the results of a home inspection without the written approval of the home inspector's client or the client's representative; I never gave HI written permission to send inspection to seller but he did.

(b) accept compensation from more than one party with a financial interest in the residential dwelling without written approval from all parties with a financial interest in the residential dwelling; He got a Kickback from seller, REA

(c) accept a commission or allowance, directly or indirectly, from another person or business entity associated with the client in connection with work for which the home inspector is responsible to the client; REA and seller who claims to be a contractor

(d) refuse or otherwise fail to disclose promptly to a client information about any business interest or relationship of the home inspector that may affect the client in connection with a home inspection. heard from neighbors seller and HI know each other he passed inspection for seller. I am trying to find out if REA have a friendship with HI also

Section 5. Unfair trade practice. A person who provides home inspection services or purports to be a home inspector who does not comply with the provisions of [sections 1 through 5] is engaging in an unfair trade practice and is subject to the provisions of Title 30, chapter 14, part 1.

I would say the inspector that did the original inspection "Housemaster" is guilty of this he lied and hid things.

This inspector got a letter as procedure to a lawsuit and he was given 21 days to respond I asked him to contact his E & O insurance he completely overlooked the letter and did not respond with in the 21 days so this goes against him to. I had to call Kathy CEO at Housemaster HQ and she called this inspector and told him to respond.

His response Stop and cease this nonsense right now or else or else what, it that a threat Sheriff has seen this letter and they see it as threat.
This HI thinks he is GOD he is Arrogant and not liked by other HI and there are 5 other home buyers who wish to sue and guess who the inspector was.

This person should not be able to inspect homes.

Do you think $140,000.00 in major repair that was covered up by inspector is reasonable cost. No I don't I would not have bought the house. I am a recent widow of a VN vet who had numerous orange health problems plus cancer and took his own life. I used the equity of the house that my husband and I shared to buy another house and start a new life as memories were painful at old home, that is all money I had and it is all tied up in a NON HABITABLE house that the floor is falling in & has dummy heating vents and no heat but for a space heater due to furnace in lock out I have had out heating contractor after heating contractor out and the furnace will not work and needs replacing but I don't have the $10,000 to do so, do you think after buying a house I should have to put all my belonging in storage so they do not fall through the floor or to prevent any more of my belongings from getting ruined by water because of a leaky roof that has many shingles missing and as neighbors said sellers did it themselves and started installing from the top crest down to the edge of building, it this not clearly a wrong way to install a roof and causes many
problems.
Do you think a half hour is long enough to inspect a 2700 sq foot house.

Let me ask something How can I break a furnace with 3 burners burnt out and it in lockout mode and the water coil is all rusted out and leaking water inside and has been because of the water strains that has started to rust? How can I break a thermostat which was not even hook into any voltage. how can I break the seals on many double pane glass windows including a patio door and cause them to turn white inside both pieces of glass , how can I break a garage that is buckling under it's own weight because the framing is off and it is now starting to lean winter causes the ground to heave and this is causing the 2x 4 to snap and lean. how can i break the electric when I can hardly get the breakers on after they been tripped. How can I break a roof that had many shingles missing and I caused this water to leak into the house. Or the gable or shed roof overhang over the front door that is ready to break off and it must be attached to the main framing of house and has now caused my ceiling to split apart and major cracks in the surrounding wall.
How can I break a deck that was built wrong in the first place by the sellers and the posts to hold it up are undersized for the weight load just as the floor joists.

Tell me how I broke all this things as the inspector said I did.
This things are not noticeable to an untrained eye but are noticeable to some one that claims to be an expert on home inspections.

I wish both you Logic and Van356 would step in my shoes so you would know how I feel how, how I hurt inside, how I cry every night as I lay my head down to sleep because of a house that is not a home every thing is in storage how can you enjoy a house that black mold has over taken the walls because of an inspector who failed to mention the dryer vent had been vented inside the walls and that mold is spreading fast because every time I have a backup that crap runs out all over the basement floor and under the sheet rock and just adds to the mold by getting it wet , how would you like this to happen to some one you cared about, how would you feel then would you careless and not give a damn you try living on $800 a month and see if you can pay for repairs

"As far as your question about HI's thinking they are God. Hopefully Van 356 will respond, as he seems to believe he is "all knowing". ;-)"

Amen, brother.

Joke around and be arrogant and if the shoe fit and clearly it does on both of you perhaps you should do some soul searching the real god is watching..

I bet you would not like being in my shoes and going through what I have, and are at going through at the present time and I bet none of your loved ones would like to wear my shoes cause they would not want to go through this either and my shoes do not fit arrogance.

I have every right to feel the way i do because it was my money, I was the one that was scammed by dishonest people.

Just goes to show...some are not as "all knowing" as they may believe themselves to be. :-)

And that my friends is the perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black :)

Nallie, my condolences for your loss. I can't imagine being in that situation. I wouldn't defend any of the oversights by the Housemeister inspector, and it certainly sounds like fraud.

Are you sure he completed the entire inspection in 30 minutes? It takes me longer than that just to explain the Inspection Agreement up front, collect a check and give a summary when I'm done.

Linda1117: And that my friends is the perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black :)

LOL!

People in glass houses....

The guy who did the well inspection was here the same day housemasters was and arrived at house first he getting the well pump going and doing water sampling plus measuring depth of well so it can be registered.

I called well inspector 2 weeks after I closed on house because I was having problems with things. and he told me he and HI spoke, HI went into house through front, never seen him come out front door but did see him came out from around house, which would have been through back door and got into truck and left and he was only there a half hour. and The well inspector never seen HI get a ladder out or put one in truck.

And HI claims he was there over 5 hours
The structural Engineer I hired after I purchased house was here 2 hours and picked up many of Housemasters errors first being the floor joists 6 inch thick by 1 inch wide and spaced 31 inches apart from one another this was open to see as there is an unfinished ceiling and the joists are exposed. And the major defects just kept popping out one after the other

The NAHI I hired to inspect after purchase just 3 hours in his inspection told me he seen enough and said HM probably never even inspected the place because there are to numerous major defects and the furnace being one was plain to see that rust had formed inside from water leaking in it and burners were burnt out he removed them all and indeed 3 of them were no good.. HM put down in his report removed all burners checked and all are in good working condition and furnace fired right up.
HI inspector after house purchase could not get furnace to fire up because he could not get it out of lock up mode

so I believe the inspection reports after I purchased house should over ride HouseMaster inspection report

Housemaster HQ has not even offered to help solve this matter and Joe and Cathy know all about it, Joe was called with in a month of buying house and I told of the major repairs that were never disclosed by one of there inspectors and that inspector blamed me for breaking the furnace and thermostat and if anything else goes wrong with that house i am the one who broke it cause he did his job and he had nothing more to say to me and he does not guarantee anything and he can not be sued.

call HQ and HQ say you have to take it up with the one who inspected the house one passing the buck off on the other like a ping pong ball back and forth, who is responsible?

I like to know why I can't sue Housemasters even, HQ let this inspector carry there name and both Joe and Cathy told me all inspectors with the name have to be licensed and insured and I called the state licensing board and no Housemaster licensed here in this county so he is breaking company policy or Joe and Cathy at HM HQ is lying to me

Nallie...the state licenses the HI's..so he could live anywhere in the state. So...you need to ask if he is licensed in the state of Montana..not just the county.

That said, I'm not clear on who told you that you can't sue. In this country...one can sue another for anything...the question is, will you win...

That said, who said you can't sue...and what reason was given?

I have asked and Housemasters is not even licensed in the state & not the county which i guess they have to have a license or permit to inspect. This HI and I live in the same county we are 45 miles apart.

He advertises in the phone book as NAHI and I checked that out to and no such thing he is not a member as claims and does not have the certs he is claiming to have either, state is interested in this.

Housemasters said due to the lawsuit in 2002 they can not be sued now.

Under Montana annotated law supression of a fact of one who is bound to disclose it (HI fall under this) and who gives other facts which are likely to mislead another into a contract.

Both the HI and sellers fall under this rule and that is what suit will be brought against them as I would have never have bought this house, it was contingent, written right in contract contingent on inspection, if house does not inspect out, contract is void and null and all earnest money deposit is to be returned, Yup, black and white on the contract.

And then to find out months after that the sellers knew the inspector, so sellers told him what was in contract and contingent on home inspect passing, and why did sellers get a copy of the inspection, I never signed for them to receive such
They were in this together and my agent is being sued because it was she who set up the inspection with Housemaster when i told her I did not want HM to call another but inspection was done behind my back.

There was just a case won in court just like mine, HI was involved also along with sellers and REA. that case was a Breach of Contract due to the major repairs.

I paid $100 to have this case copied from the court house
so I can look it over and deja va my case to a tee all you have to do is change the name of the plaintiff to mine.

The plaintiff was awarded rescinding of deed, all money returned, plus damages.

There is another one going on right now, been in court for 12 days now buyer did not have HI, so will see how that turns out.

nallie: "I have asked and Housemasters is not even licensed in the state.."

BTW...the in most states, they license the actual inspector...and not the company.

I can't seem to determine exactly how your state does it....
what have you found out?

At any reate,
I wish you success....

I have been contacting state office after state office and he is not even certified

I have been contacting state office after state office and he is not even certified

Then that should be a major plus in a lawsuit....as he and HM have engaged in unlicensed practice and consumer fraud...

There is only one HM certified in state and he is in Great Falls and a complete different name, no one can at county or state level can find any certification on this HM inspector that is local here

He is getting another demand letter and I have sent this letter to the Attorney general as well and also to HI association with attached documents to show them negligence where things did not meet satisfactory requirements like HM said and in fact did not work at all these are repair bills they say item can not be fixed and need replacing and many estimates of major repair along with state engineer reports, structural reports and the HI I did with another company after i moved in that found many issues were never inspected or passed but were not working at all.

I also had the state building inspector inspect this house and it does not inspect out good at all but is a very defective house .

Most states require a seperate license to inspect for wood destroying insects....that is why I advocate that buyers research all of this before they hire...to make sure that the inspector is licensed and/or certified..as well as properly insured for all the services he/she may offer.

I am not the one who hired Housemasters, and at the time I was living in another state and was dealing with a REA on the sale of my home there, I wanted a different inspector and my buyers agent went ahead and hired HM and Montana does not require an inspector to be licensed or certified so you can not check but they must carry full E & O insurance, that is only requirement in state.
Montana does not even require and there for will not issue a state building permit to people that live just outside of city and does not require them to have it inspected, they removed that policy in 2003 but require an resident outside of city limits to get a building permit to build a horse barn and that must be inspected, a life of a horse is more important that a life of a human being, I think the state & city have there priorities you know where, and get this they say I am just outside of city limits but I am still in city limits and there for I must pay for city services, but I can not get a city inspector here because i am outside limits I can not get city this and city that but I am accessed for it on my property taxes and any issues I must deal with state, Yeah confusing, but they say no building permit to be taken out to build a house but you must take out a permit to have it inspected by state building inspector. Does that make sense, who is screwing who on top of all this other mess. And living in another state does make things difficult when you do not know who to call as it is living here now it has taken me a whole day starting in the morning, of calling and being transfer after transfer just to reach the right person I am suppose to be talking to, good example of the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.

So I guess I build a 4 horse stall barn, one for a queen horse size bed, one for a smaller horse size bed, a tack room to keep my computer so I can I keep track of my Bryers model horses I must buy to make my living quarters a barn, and a spare stall for misc storage including a pitch fork and a kitchenette to keep my oats and hay in, a horse shower and a large arena room to put my tv & couch since I am now baby sitting my tiny Bryer horses full time so I need to do something, just so I can have the protection of building codes which I can not get if I build a house, and that is the question I am having addressed by the state and the attorney general.

Now the Supreme court is realizing people are getting duped by REA, Home Inspectors, people who are more skilled in such affairs then the person looking to buy a home and has changed the laws through Annotations which cannot exempt anyone from responsibility for fraud for willful injury to a person or property of another whether willful or negligent as such provisions are contrary to public policy, but you must sue, so does this include I can sue the state in federal court for there no resident building permit requirements giving any a right to build a house with match sticks and allowing it to be sold to another as a resident dwelling and being taxed on it and that must take a out a building permit to even build a horse barn