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mx8_gw

Hardwood decking attachment

mx8
13 years ago

Hi, all. I am replacing a deck on my house (about 700sq.) ft. The decking I`m using is black locust, actual dimensions of 1-1/16 thick by 3-1/16 wide. It`s been cut,milled and air dried on site following all the rules of lumber milling and processing and is reputed to be a very stable and long lasting wood.

I`m agonizing over the attachment process, I don`t want to face screw it for appearance and easing the distinct possibility of a future sanding. I like the ease and holding power of the Kreg deck mate system, but they have to be installed with 1/4 in. gaps, which is tolerable but i don`t want to end up with 1/2 in. gaps 5 years from now. I`m a little worried about the longevity of the biscuit/glue systems, do they stay ridgid? I`m also thinking that the groove is an ideal place for water to rest speeding up any mold/rot issues. Any experieces or advice is appreciated,

Thanks, Alan

Comments (15)

  • brickeyee
    13 years ago

    " I like the ease and holding power of the Kreg deck mate system, but they have to be installed with 1/4 in. gaps, which is tolerable but i don`t want to end up with 1/2 in. gaps 5 years from now. "

    If you actually measure the moisture content you can get a pretty good idea about how much additional shrinkage may occur.

    Chapter 3 of the wood handbook has the information needed.

    By weighing a piece of wood, then drying it in the oven until it stops changing weight you can compute how much water was actually in the wood.

    that and some math can bound the shrinkage possibilities.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Wood Handbook, Chapter 3

  • john_hyatt
    13 years ago

    The kreg system Might work on composite with out a pre drill but its not going to happen with hardwood. If you made it happen the stress would show up down the road no matter where you put the screw.

    Using any of the clips is a gamble and your right the slot acts as a funnel for debri and water.

    They both are high dollor installs with results most Folks are not happy with. For a lot less money and great results screwing / pluging is a sure thing. J.

  • mx8
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    I had planned to pre-drill with the Kreg deck-mate, thanks for the reassurance on my concerns with the clips. I have a friend who recommended the clips but couldn`t answer my question of what do they look like 10-15 years from now.
    I honestly hadn`t considered the plug method but it does make sense, what glue would be used on the plugs that will last forever?

  • john_hyatt
    13 years ago

    Tightbond 111. J.

  • deck.builder
    13 years ago

    Alan,

    I have been installing ipe decks for the past 10+ years using hidden fasteners. My personal favorite is the ipe clip extreme because of the metal washer inside the clip. I will admit that installation takes more time than face screwing, however I have yet to see any of the horror stories some people like to talk about. My customers are always thrilled with the no-screw look, and they have lasted the time test for me.

    I have also done the plug method, but I have two complaints about that. First, it is no different than face screwing, so could the screws work their way and push up the plugs just like they move when face screwed? I have never seen that happen, but again, I do not use this method much. My other big complaint is it is extremely time consuming. If labor is no issue, it does give a nice look i think, but it is definitley the most time consuming method of all. Hope this helps some and good luck.

  • john_hyatt
    13 years ago

    It must be all in what your used to doing.

    I can lay decking with plugs a Lot fasten then the clips. The idea of the screws pushing the plugs up is a little silly. If you belive thats going to happen the screws holding the clips down would face the same thing. When I fasten a deck with screws they dont move at all.

    J.

  • deck.builder
    13 years ago

    John,

    That is some serious plug laying. I have never heard of anyone being faster with plugs than with fasteners. Between glueing each plug and sanding to get a nice clean, flush look....well, thats impressive, thats all i can say. I have nothing against plugs, I personally like the look, just it is not cost effective for me or my customers.

    I know the screws pulling up sounds silly. But it happens with any other type of face screwing, so what is so much different when a plug is installed? Does glueing a plug over the head of the screw really help hold it down that much more?

    However, this is not possible with the fasteners like you say. The reason nails/screws pull up is because the wood has moved back and forth, bending the screw and pushing it up as it moves with the seasons. When installing with a hidden fastener, only one screw is actually through the board (I suppose that depends on the hidden fastener you choose) which in theory forces the movement from the other side of the board. This would mean that the screw never moves, so it is never pushed back up.

    I am curious how you can say your screws never move at all. While you may not see the movement, there is no doubt that they did. Are you trying to say you have wood that has never moved/expanded/contracted?

    Im not trying to call you out here John, you are obviously a very knowledgeable and helpful source on these forums for many people. If only more people had the dedication you do. I simply wanted to exaplain my thinking.

    Again, I do not see the screws pulling up as a real problem anyway, just a thought I have had about plugs. My biggest issue is time, which you managed to solve some how, lol.

  • john_hyatt
    13 years ago

    Most of the projects I do worthy of fancy fastener systems are decked with ipe,garapa and latley masenranduba. I use 7 x 1 5/8 '' ss trim head ss screws for 3/4 '' material.

    After 15 years or so puting down S A lumber I have Never had Any movement with the screws. No doubt at all. The plugs on top have nothing to do with it they are just cosmetic.

    I dont use anything but ss screws,305, we use them on the lower end jobs in places. Even fastening pt lumber the screws do not move, ever, the green pt might but the screws do not.

    Seeing as how you have used the clips for 10 years fastening ipe I never cross think sucess. But you must live in an another universe then the thousands who had major problems with them. Latley Al over Austin way did a couple like that because the Wallet demanded. He is saying they came out not bad so it must be possible now days and with the right ventalation/ time staking attention to detail and the right material. However as I have said many times the clips are not hidden at all when you look down you still see the clip/big revel and the screw after all that time and extra money.

    For less install time/money by far over the clips I can put down SA T&G decking. Dont even say or ask if this works exposed fully to the weather. Yes it works done corectley I have them out 10 years as well doing just fine including my own out back of Butler Manor. Nothing shows with this install not even the plugs.

    Good to see another pro deckbuilder over here it gets a little much fielding everything by myself sometimes.

    Welcome a board !!! John Hyatt www.deckmastersllc.com

  • aidan_m
    13 years ago

    Deck Builder,

    Regular head long deck screws are succeptible to the "backing out" effect. The screws are not actually backing out. They are staying put as the wood dries out and shrinks. The longer the screw, the closer to the center of the joist it is anchored, and the more it will be sticking up after the wood shrinks. The short trim head screws minimize this effect and really keep the deck together more tightly than longer beefier deck screws.

  • deck.builder
    13 years ago

    Thanks John, glad to be here.

    We obviously see things a bit differently when it comes to fastening systems. There is no doubt some of the hidden fasteners have had some problems in the past, but I have had great luck with the ipe clip extreme products(i really think the ss washer inside makes the difference). I have been using those for about the past 4-5 years and I have never had any issues. Before that I used to face screw mostly and use some hidden fasteners if the customer specified it. Now I try to push my customers towards the ipe clip if they are uncertain or looking for suggestions.

    aidan,

    That is interesting. I have never heard of that reasoning for the backing out effect. Do you happen to have an article or anything backing this up? I am interested to read more about this. Are you implying that screws and nails pop back up because of different reasons? Or is this why you would say nails pop up too? If this is your reasoning for nails too, I do not think it would be correct. You can look at old pt decks where nails are sticking up 1". No way did that joist shrink a full 1". Thanks.

    Lance Thomas aka Deck Builder

  • aidan_m
    13 years ago

    " Are you implying that screws and nails pop back up because of different reasons?"

    Yes. Nails work loose. Screws do not if installed correctly. No pilot hole into the joist, a screw can't work loose. I only use screws or stainless steel ring shank nails for PT projects.

    "Do you happen to have an article or anything backing this up?"
    I did not learn this from a publication, but from experience, trying to tighten screws down which seemed to have popped up 1/16" after a few years. These screws would snap off if I tried to torque them down. This got me thinking about how the screws are really not loose, but they are not holding the deck boards down tightly to the joist anymore. How could they all back out a half turn and then be stuck? This had me puzzled.

    A few years ago, I noticed the rising popularity of the trim head screws for deck construction. I also noticed how much shorter than traditional deck screws the trim heads are. I built a few projects with trim heads and after years, the screw heads never pop up. I even have some projects that have some trim heads and some traditional deck screws. Only the traditional deck screws have any pop-ups. The trim heads all stay down.

    I thought hard about why this is so. Wood shrinkage is the only logical explanation. A longer screw with a larger head is proportionally greater in relation to the dimension of the wood, than a short screw with a small head. Because wood shrinks dimensionally, in proportion to its size and moisture content, the longer the screw, the greater proportional difference after shrinkage. The difference is obsrevable at the surface of the deck, because the base of the screw is stuck into the center of the joist. A shorter screw is anchored closer to the top of the joist, so it moves down with the joist, rather than the joist shrinking down around the post of the screw.

    It's just like mudsill anchors in an old house. The nuts get loose due to wood shrinkage, not from the anchor rod pulling loose from the foundation, or the nuts spinning backwards on their own.

    I hope this makes better sense now.

    take care,
    Aidan

  • deck.builder
    13 years ago

    Thanks Aidan, in theory it makes sense. Yet in theory my head says that movement makes sense too. I appreciate your your explanation a lot, thanks. I am definitely going to start watching this closer on any jobs we have coming up where we are resurfacing old decks.

  • john_hyatt
    13 years ago

    Lance, I just cant see the advanage using the clips.

    The Co sent me a box load of the exertme clips with the little ss insert a couple years ago. I tried them out, out back of the Shop where everything new goes, a few worked a few dident the litte screws they provide I dident even use I went with my normal fasteners. The pre drill thru the clip was a pain any little slip and the provided screws would miss completley not to mention if the pre drill bit hit the insert and geting the right angle toward the decking.

    And of course there is the $.. the clip price even with the discount they offered was pretty high ipe plugs are around 9 cents per. You have been installing the things for 10 years or 5 years or what ever and never had the normal call backs go for it Bro!!!

    Lance where are you located? If you have a site,and of course you do, post it up!! I am always wanting to learn/look at new things and would like to see your clip work. J.

  • deck.builder
    13 years ago

    Sorry John, the internet age I am just getting into, a bit behind the times Im afraid. I am looking at launching a webpage next year though, so once I do I will have to send you the link. I am located just outside Atlanta, GA.

    I am curious now why you didnt try the "little screws" supplied. For one, they are listed as a #8x2 while you use a #7x1-5/8". Depending on the source of your screws, it could be about the same diameter as the GRK #8 they provide, but either way it is still bigger than the screw you used. Maybe because you ran a 1-5/8" screw at a 45 degree angle it did not bite enough into the joist?

  • john_hyatt
    13 years ago

    The screws they sent me had a very small head on them dident look good at all to me. Anyway my test included several kinds of screws. I lost around $3000 using the clips on a Wallets deck back in the begining I tried them on the test but never again.

    Man if you have been at this for 10 years without a site your my Hero. I get a good 1/2 of my work off that site between that and the adversting bill I hand out some big change. Way to go. J.