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cfmuehling

They whys & why nots of composit decking

cfmuehling
13 years ago

Hi all.

I've been reading here and still haven't determined a couple of facts (not opinions) about composit decking.

Why exactly is Trex the bane of the world? and Azek, why so bad? Why are they "filling landfills" and with what are these earth polluters rebuilding their decks?

Do they splinter? Crack? Melt? Warp? Do they quickly fade to gray? Are they hot to bare feet?

Info is appreciated!

Thanks,

Christine

Comments (19)

  • deckman22
    13 years ago

    People don't like trex because it was marketed as "maintenance free" which of course it is not, no decking is. There were class action lawsuits because of it mainly due to mold, which popped up soon after installation. There were also problems with the decking crumbling apart for whatever reason that I can't say for sure why. Trex would give the end user more material to replace their decking, but not pay for labor which is expensive. It seems to do better in some climates than others, here not so good.

    Azek I can't really speak of their problems cause it's not popular in this area, I've only used it once & never any negatives about it from that customer.

    Never heard of any composites that melted. Warping like real wood does? No, but it can sag between joist if they are not spaced right. Some manufacturers would state it was ok to use 16" centers when it really needed 12" centers, this is probably where the warping comments come from.

    Splinter, no. Fade quickly to gray, no, but certainly they will fade, some more than others. Crack, for the most part no, but most will crack on the ends if you screw to close to the end or without a pilot hole.

    Do they get hot? Of course they get hot if in direct sunlight. Here most any decking will be hot to the touch in the summer, darker colors get hotter than lighter colors, probably the same anywhere.

    Would I recommend using New Tech decking as mr. deckbarn does? No way. I installed some on a deck one time where the customer had all ready bought it at a home show. It expanded/contracted more than any composite decking I've used. The railing were total junk, so bad I refused to use the stuff & the guy had to return it & use something else.
    Then why does mr. deckbarn recommend/use it? Cause it's cheap & he's a volume builder. If he is selling it for 1.80 per lf. then he's getting it dirt cheap compared to any composite on the market today. If you want a quality compsite decking buy an american made product not cheap chinese made junk.

    Al

  • deckman22
    13 years ago

    mr. deckman,

    If you can buy better decking made in america why not? People here need to start doing it, that is if they want jobs here again. Considering where you are from I would think you would be mindful of that.

    I've seen consumer reports rate composites at the top of their list that were no good before too. I don't believe everything I read, do you? Remember they rated Eon well yet it was nothing but, expensive junk.

    Do you sell their railing too at the deckbarn? How do you like it?

    If I use a product once & it fails why should I ever use it again? I don't think it does well here in Texas, the supply houses here must think the same thing since none carry it.

    If it does well for you up north & you want to sell it more power to you. It's not for me tho.

    Al

  • www.thedeckbarn
    13 years ago

    Hi all.
    I've been reading here and still haven't determined a couple of facts (not opinions) about composit decking

    The Icc is an independant service whose initials stand for international code council. http://www.iccsafe.org/Pages/default.aspx
    Manufactures pay these guys big money to get certification for their products. Sometimes it may take as long as 2-3 years. When the product has been certified a report is than issued and a report # is given. This # is required by most building departments that I know of. My question would be that if various products have been passed than why not buy them if you can pass the savings on to your customers. That being said. I have provided a link in this message which will give you access to the ICC and there should be all the facts you should need to know regarding any composite decking or cellular pvc decking.

  • sierraeast
    13 years ago

    Unfortunately the ICC-ES evaluation cant and wont ever be able to provide data on the longevity or reliability of any composite. If you're a gambler, go for composite, otherwise take the experienced advise of some of the pros here and go wood. Some of the pros have worked with certain composites and even recommend them, but it comes with thier experience. Experience overrides evaluations any day o' the week!

  • aidan_m
    13 years ago

    "I have only built 4500 decks in 25 years so I might not be qualified."

    How can a person build 180 decks a year?


    Deck Barn Dude:

    You are getting a little spammy with your website. I am calling you out as a sales person and not a real builder.

    How you like that?

    Now make us believe that you can actually build a deck, from A to Z in less than 2 days, call it a good job, and then have less than .01% callbacks.

    Bollocks!

    Trex decomposes in the sun and rain. I am a fast learner, so it only took a few projects before I noticed. I work for a huge facility with hundreds of buildings, and have been here for 10 years. That provides me with the unique experience of observing how things wear over time.

    Many of the new flooring products have really poor performance, like total failure in 2 years. These are also "Green Label". I bring it up because the old flooring lasted more than 10 years without issue. There are many lousy products being sold today under the "recycled save the planet" pretense. The idea of saving the planet is wonderful, but I think in practice it is a marketing scheme rather than a genuine endeavor.
    Trex decking can last a long time. I see some that has been installed for 20 years in the shade, close to some that we installed 5 years ago, but it is in the sun. The new stuff can easily be gouged with a fingernail.

    My main point here is that just because someone claims to have sold a million bucks worth of something doesn't make the thing worth a million bucks.

    My other main point is if you don't check on your work years later, you can't claim anything about the quality of the work or the product. The customer is not an expert, and their level of satisfaction is not measured by the number of callbacks you didn't get.

    I get callbacks on 100% of my jobs. Why? Because the customer wants to do more work with us.

    You know how much $ I have made off materials?

    A grand total of $0.00 for my entire life.

    I make a living building things, not selling. All my input is to help the customer; I have no other motive.

  • anthonyxa
    13 years ago

    "Quote Sierraeast - Experience overrides evaluations any day o' the week!"

    Amen to that lads!!!!

    wisely spoken

  • john_hyatt
    13 years ago

    Guy's you know me.

    Killer's come on is a litte diferenf, his rating on Angies list is not all that great, and he has some Major complaints from his Customers that can be found on a google, combined with his Me is Always right thing and always talking about how big his dong is and giving the impression He dosent give a s#i4 about anyone else but himself.

    Becides that , if in fact the work on his site is his, its not bad. Several things he has said here and a few other places I agree with.

    I have nothing in mind to conclude with, just a few thoughts on the Man and his contrabutions. J.

  • aidan_m
    13 years ago

    Deck barn,

    Your website says:

    "The 3/4" round Dextrustions have a wall thickness of .062 the 3/4" square "Estate balusters are .050" Buy American USA deck parts direct and save!"

    And above you say in your post above:

    "The whole product line, Deckorators [aluminum balusters and railing] is imported from China"

    So which one is it? Are you advertising false information on your website? Or are you just simply violating the terms of this forum by hawking your wares with whatever silly sales pitch suits your mood?

    It looks like you went away for now. When you come back, remember that this is not a place to sell things, especially your internet business.

    Having your user name as the same as your website that sells materials over the internet, distributed nationally, is clearly a violation of the terms of this forum. Posting a link to your website is OK, to a point. If you are going to post here, do not include sales pitches or price quotes for your products.

    Nobody else around here is selling anything other than ideas and experience.

    A side note:
    Those stair kits will never pass code unless you have a perfectly level, flat ground under the deck. Precut stair stringers are a joke! A person can't even lay out stairs correctly until they mark a minimum of 3 elevations: 2 at the first riser and another for the deck surface. Only then can you lay out the stringers so all the steps meet code.

  • john_hyatt
    13 years ago

    Do you put in any South American projects up there Steve ?

    J.

  • www.thedeckbarn
    13 years ago

    1, ipe there is not that much call for it that I know of in Metro Detroit. Should you have tips on how to do it that would be great. The customers are always asking for low maintenance products and for some reason there is huge emphasis on color. The fading to grey of the exotics, in my opinion would not be a big seller. I have always tried to limit the buying options to 1 or 2 choices for the homeowner as to limit the amount of confusion because there are just soooooooooooooo damn many different things to choose from.
    When I first started building in 1985 the choice was only treated lumber, late 80's cedar came along, late 90's Trex, now there is so much out there that deck builders want to argue online as to what the favored product of the day is. It is not fair to manufacturers who have spent millions of dollars developing a product only to be undermined by inexperienced people who have seen a product once and whine on the internet about just how bad it is.
    May the rest of the world not be so quick to judge the judges of those whom are being judged.
    Has anybody seen this it is brand new.
    steve scholl
    mr spam

    Here is a link that might be useful: more high quality american made decking

  • john_hyatt
    13 years ago

    Its has become personl with me and trex.

    I started out with moisture shield in the begining even went to the open house , where exon took pictures and robbed the info, so I knew those guy's and how hard they worked to come up with the product. On and on the legal stuff went. And then there was the service calls on trex. Over here it turns to black mold mush. There must be something in the ground in this part of Okalhoma everything rots quickley. I never saw it like this even in Oregon.The false advertising with photos in high gloss of decks that did not exist,you remember the one flashed out on big sur, and stonewalling all there livid customers for so many years.

    On the other hand,I admire them and hate them at the same time. They never give up,never give an inch and they survive.

    I got into South American on the ground floor. My supply is East Teak has been for over 10 years very good relationship by now. The silver/gray color really looks a whole lot like maney manmade product in gray or what ever they call it.So if you let it go with out finish the result is the same. Also Ipe and several other SA product is a sure thing no recalls,no class actions,no buy outs,no going out of business. The complaints with SA are with the install not the product.

    You know all the problems with manmade no use in going into all that. Really funny with weatherbest my friendly compation over here was pushing it back then total bad deal he sliped out of it because its really not the Contractors fault when product goes south.

    Anyway SA might work for Ya,Im sure your workers could pick it up, but to keep the color finish has to go on and kept on. But really is that so much more work than cleaning the manmade?

    John www.deckmastersllc.com

  • www.thedeckbarn
    13 years ago

    A side note:
    Those stair kits will never pass code unless you have a perfectly level, flat ground under the deck. Precut stair stringers are a joke! A person can't even lay out stairs correctly until they mark a minimum of 3 elevations: 2 at the first riser and another for the deck surface. Only then can you lay out the stringers so all the steps meet code.
    To: Mr Aidan M.
    I don't sell stair kits. The deck packages are a pile of lumber that still needs to be cut.

    Primary focus of thedeckbarn is aluminum balusters. Which if you quit railing off on the mouth you could save a lot of money buying by knowing me. I am in this to save you money on quality products period. I flat out am sick and tired of the retail prices larger manufacturers want to impose on deck builders, most of whom are hard working guys trying to make a buck. While various greedy muck racking profiteers sit in their boadrooms and are only concerned with market share.

    John Hyatt:
    You could have a very valid point in your statement about the different areas of the country affecting products differently. To which one might surmise that this whole deal is a regional issue and there is no perfect decking for any one area. With the SA and Chinese you still have the arguements about imports, buying american etc. What I do know for as fact is that Trex works up here and so does NewTech Composite. I have built enough decks up here to know. NewTech is coming out with capstock decking and it will be available Mid March. NewTech has 4 regional warehouses, California, Pennsylvania, Georgia and Texas. It is sold in Europe, Australia, China and THE United States. They have 43 dedicated lines making decking 24/7 365. Their lines ares dedicated to a single color to avoided the variances in batches caused by having to purge the extrusion lines for color changes.
    Steve Scholl
    MR SPAM

  • deckman22
    13 years ago

    mr. deckbarn,

    In 1985 I was all ready in the deck business for a couple of years, built around 600 decks that year. I owned a decking lumber company just so I could buy from the wholesalers cutting out the retail lumber stores, thus doing decks for less than the competition yet making more money. Back then most decks we did were small on track homes or portable school building decks & handicap ramps. We were working all over the state of texas for several school districts. I framed well over 300 homes before I ever got into deck building, everything from small track homes to huge cut up customs out in the hill country. I've built decks up to 10,000 sq. ft. on commercial projects. Now you know I've been around the block too. Check me out on angie's list, google or whatever, you won't find any complaints.

    Never felt the need to say all that before, but since you wanted to know I did. Now please stop with the bragging & throwing out numbers trying to prove you are the top dog. The other deck builders that frequent this site are all top notch builders, in case you haven't figured that out yet, not a bunch of hacks.

    Al Carruthers
    www.alscustomdecks.com

  • www.thedeckbarn
    13 years ago

    I fail to understand, what these personal attacks on me have to do with the lady original quetion. About FACTS on wood vs composite. The only reason I mention any #'s about me is to give stats to the amount of work done with each product.
    I don't think it is right or fair to a manufacturer to slam theirs product when in fact you have seen it at a homeowners house once and refused to work with it. May those whos set themselves up here as judges also have a merciful judgement when their time comes.

    I think it is great that some one with as much experience as you profess to havre would hang out in the weeds as it were. Give nothing positive and use this space for an attack on me.


    Al of the complaints registered except for 2 that I am of aware of have been addressed. Unfortunately, when I did address the problems nobody bothered to post any thing positive. Three of the most volitile ones didn't even appear until after a 10 year employee quit. most of these post by whomever are anonymous.
    I appreciate the fact that you falied along with mr hyatt that there are over 30 positive reviews along with the 6 negative of which 2 overlap.
    May you never and i mean never have any issues with anybody and have them brought out like you have stated.
    You I am sure be one of the few people in the crowd who was able to cast the 1st stone.

  • john_hyatt
    13 years ago

    Hmmmmm let me think about that. While I hang out with the weedies.

    First off when you come on that strong its a set up to go looking.Thats just natural human nature.

    On the other hand anyone put under the Scrutiny...will come up dirty someway look what happened to slick willy.

    Normaly I would not have time for all of this either here or other sites we have gone thru simular issues. But its a dead winter for me just doing some drawings and working with a few Folks on line.But now that Steve has become know for some big volume,some not bad projects,good business know how along with a high handed way...Its time to get out of Personal.

    Lord knows I have had several folks go after me over here as the years have gone by,you would not belive the e-mails calling me everything but an alien built inside out with a skill saw coming out of his nose( not really there but ya know what I mean )

    Good to meet ya Steve.Same with all you Boys that I know and have come to respect. Here is to a new business year a big bent elbow with the chicory/coffee/Baileys to all of you. J.

  • cfmuehling
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Geeze...

    With all my reading on Gardenweb and these home boards? And during my years of membership here? I've never seem so many threads deteriorate into personal and professional sniping and bickering.

    I have gleaned some information, thank you, but had to take it and read more elsewhere.

    Happy New Year and thank you for your time.

  • deckman22
    13 years ago

    Steve,

    I'm none with the jabs. You are no doubt a good deck builder. I was only trying to make a point about something that I don't think you have gotten yet. Time to move on so we don't run off the good folks that visit gardenweb.

  • fredinva
    13 years ago

    I installed Composite this year, 320 sq ft. of Evergrain.
    The reason for not using pt wood is - I Pressure washed/ stained decks for a couple years and after all that hard work vowed - never again, at least not at my house.
    I selected Evergrain because I used a small amount around my pond six yrs ago. It has held up WELL with only minor cleaning.
    50+ dollars for a 20 ft deck board, worth if in my book.

    fred