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nicho_gw

Hayward Variable Speed Pump

nicho
12 years ago

We are installing a pool in the spring and considering a variable speed pump. Pool will be roughly 18 x 32. Looking for feedback on the Hayward EcoStar variable speed pump.

Comments (16)

  • golfgeek
    12 years ago

    nicho,
    IMO Hayward, in general, doesn't have a great reputation for quality product or service. You may be better served with Pentair's VS model if you're looking for a variable speed pump.

  • poolguynj
    12 years ago

    As a tech, they usually, after navigating their phone system, don't keep me waiting long and when I do need a warranty part. they have shipped it without a problem or had me pick it up at a local warehouse so for me, support hasn't been the problem.

    Its just the parts they use. I find things like the center tube of an "S" series top mount sand filter being made of a cheap center tube that can collapse, and has collapsed often enough that it should have warranted a manufacturing change to a more solid pipe. This has been going on for years. There are other design issues I have with Hayward in general. Its these types of weaknesses, I find, that tend to make them less reliable.

    I just find Pentair's products to be more reliable and well thought out, especially from a service point of view.

    Most of Jandy's products are very good too but they have some other stuff I don't really like. Sometimes phone support leaves me hanging.

    Scott

  • mas985
    12 years ago

    Since you have two negative opinions on Hayward, I though I would throw in a couple of positives.

    I have only my own experience to draw from but after 6 years of Hayward equipement, I have been quite happy and would probably go with them again. I primarly went with Hayward to get the SWG and the rest of the equipment to get the 3 year warranty which it turns out I didn't need. I also know of several people on pool forums who also have had good experiences with Hayward. It only seems to be the techs that have the issues which leads me to believe that is more about ease of repair than it is about reliability.

    Also, when considering a variable speed pumps, I believe that having a full controller is important to make use of the flexibility in a VS pump. So if you already have a controller that supports the EcoStar, then I would not hesitate going with that pump. The newer design is more efficient the Pentair Intelliflo (based upon CEC measurement data). However, the EcoStar also has less field time so reliability hasn't really been tested although there are plenty of people posting on pool forums that have had issues with the Intelliflo so those aren't perfect either.

  • poolguynj
    12 years ago

    mas958, as you know I hold your opinions in the highest regard. That being said, I will also agree that for the first few years, most of Hayward's gear works. In it's mid-life, however, things turn downhill.

    There are a number of things that should have been spec'ed with higher standards. Whether it be parts or whole goods, certain designs leave a great deal to be desired.

    Hayward does get a lot of stuff right but the needless short comings they have are where I have my beefs.

    FWIW, I happen to have Hayward gear on my own pool with the exception of the filter. When needed, I will continue to replace the whole goods with Pentair products.

    Scott

  • mas985
    12 years ago

    Scott,

    I wasn't trying to diminish your experience with Hayward equipment. I was only trying to give a different perspective that my experience has been a good one and yes it is only one example. I just wouldn't want the OP to skip over the EcoStar because Hayward has a few bad filter designs. I have a cartridge filter and have had not issues with it and I don't really see any parts of the design that I would change. But then again, I don't deal with different designs on a daily basis either so I yield to your expertise.

    In my opinion, EcoStar has a much better efficiency design than does the Intelliflo and since the Intelliflo is not without its own issues, there is really no good reason to exclude the EcoStar from consideration, especially if the pool builder wants to use Hayward equipment. But since reliability isn't really known at this point and given that this is a new pool, if there is an option to go with Pentair, then by all means go with Pentair.

    At some point though, I would be interested in hearing the details/stats about all of your and other tech's experience with Hayward equipment to fully understand why their equipment is perceived as inferior. Too many times I hear only that Hayward sucks with no details or examples as to why and since my experience has been a good one, it is hard for me to accept. You gave a very specific and valid example about the filter but if Hayward equipment really does have reliability issues, it just needs to be supported by hard facts and not just perception. For example, if a tech reports that most of his/her calls are for Hayward equipment that doesn't necessarily mean that Hayward has reliability issues when it could be that most of the equipment in the service area is Hayward equipment. You wouldn't know for sure unless you knew what all pool owners had for equipment and not just your customers. Pool builders seem to have prefered equipment vendors which will influence service calls over time. Also, there have been some techs that have reported very few service calls for Hayward but again that could be because the pool builders in area don't use Hayward equipment. When looking at failure rates, market share in a specific region is a very important factor that should be considered. After many years of installing only Pentair equipment, you many have only Pentair service calls.

  • mas985
    12 years ago

    "Hayward has a very large presence with builders in my area."

    That was exactly my point and because of that, probability would dictate you would naturally see more service calls for Hayward equipment even if they were more reliable.

  • poolguynj
    12 years ago

    But seeing it year after year tells me they don't care.

    Scott

  • just-a-pb
    12 years ago

    Pentair has filed a patent infringement lawsuit against Hayward having to do with their variable speed pumps.
    Seems they have borrowed some ideas in their fast track to get a VS pump out to try and compete.

    Curious of what that will do to the future of this product.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Lawsuite summary

  • coastal_concepts
    12 years ago

    The Pentair vs Hayward argument is almost invalid. These two product lines priced differently for consumers with different priorities. Pentair is a higher quality product and costs suitably more while Hayward moves a larger volume of less expensive equipment. Each product has its own place in the market.

    As for Hayward quality being lower, while I agree this is true I do not agree that their service is lower. A direct family member of mine answers phones at Hayward and covers warranty requests for both consumers and dealers. Hayward is one of the most forgiving and lenient larger compaines I have ever dealt with. The service staff behind the scenes at Hayward is fantastic...IMO

    As for Pentair if you are the type of consumer that wants to spend money once then buy Pentair. If you would prefer to spend less but perhaps revisit the issue a few years sooner then a Hayward product may be the way to go.

    Just my $0.02

  • poolguynj
    12 years ago

    The greater up front costs are more than made up in the MTBF times IMHO. Cheaper up front normally doesn't equal cheaper in the long run.

    It is up to each professional organization to help an end user determine openly and honestly how to best meet the needs of the end user. Alas, this often doesn't happen but it is why those that participate in these forums do so. Its for the betterment of the industry that we do this.

    Scott

  • mas985
    12 years ago

    Again, does anyone have any hard data (other than anecdotal), to support the contention that Hayward pumps have lower MTBF than Pentair? Excluding the VS lines, some standard pump lines actually use the same motor manufacuture (A.O.Smith/Century) so the motors at least should have the same MTBF. Since it is usually the motor which fails first, I would expect that they should have very similar MTBF when installed in similar plumbing. In fact, I think it is the plumbing setup which has more to do with pump life than the pump itself.

    I have no skin in the game and would like to fully understand issue regarding reliability. On the other hand, I know for a fact that many "In The Industry" folks have some skin in the game and get kick backs or at least have better margin for selling certain brands which is why I am a little suspicious when a PB or tech bad mouths a certain brand. Without any third party research into this matter, I really don't know how anyone can make that claim. BTW, there are other professionals who say just opposite.

  • just-a-pb
    12 years ago

    Next big Pentair change will be the new chasis for the whisperflo, and the VS line, already in production as an XF. This will blow away the competition, in flow and efficency. They put a ton of time and research into this new pump.

  • trhought
    12 years ago

    Just watched the XF video from Vegas....the new XF pump now looks more like my 5 year old Jandy Stealth pumps in my backyard...a larger diffuser/impeller housing for improved efficiency, 3" fittings finally (what has Pentair been thinking for the last few years limiting their pumps to a 2.5" fitting), a larger basket for improved efficiency (still small by Jandy standards), cam-locking pump lid which I like a lot, it even has ribs on the sides of the pump housing just like the Stealth...I presume this is to keep sound down.

    Also just compared the 3HP XF curves to the Jandy Stealth 3HP and the Jandy still delivers more flow at lower power...it appears to me the XF was an effort to catch up to the Jandy Stealth in terms of a modern design and efficient wet end.

    From my technical perspective and experience as a pool owner over the last 5 years....the Jandy 2 speed pumps still look to me like the best overall value in terms of efficiency and initial costs (I only wish they made a smaller 2 speed to further reduce initial costs and improve energy efficiency)

    Variable speed options from Pentair, Hayward and Jandy still continue to be too expensive for the marginal gains in efficiency over today's 2 speeds.

    Clearly, I'm a big 2 speed fan and don't like any of the variable speed pumps from any of the Big 3.

    My 2 cents.

  • march2012
    12 years ago

    My builder wants to install a 2hp hayward tristar dual speed. He says that the price for the tristar is higher than the whisperflow and he feels it is better quality. He said 10 years ago hayward was mid to low end but they have been beefing up their higher end and they switched to hayward 3-4 years ago.

    Looking online the specs are exactly the same and the tristar does seem to be a bit more expensive. He said he is happy to put in the pentair at no additional charge.

  • poolguynj
    12 years ago

    When putting in a new pool, you should aim for all the same brand equipment unless there is a very compelling reason to do otherwise. When purchased from an authorized dealer, it gets you the manufacturer's extended warranty.

    Personally, I prefer Pentair gear. I haven't seen any reason to change, I still feel it's better engineered.

    Scott