congrats on the progress.
Curious how the pool supervisor thing works... is it a super for a company doing it on the side? or just an independent consultant that does it on his own... or an ex-builder with experience?
thanks

natural_one,

He has been in the pool industry for 20+ years and has been a super for several pool companies. I guess now you could call him an independent consultant. In addition to checking each stage, he has given us advice about the design and equipment, and some sub recommendations.

Phx,
Would love to know his name.

What he is doing is ILLEGAL in this state, unless of course he holds a Swimming pool contractors license.

From the Arizona ROC website:
(Who must be licensed as a contractor?

"Contractor" includes subcontractors, floor covering contractors, landscape contractors and consultants representing themselves as having the ability to supervise or manage a construction project for the benefit of the property owner.)

I think that says it all.

Dont worry when we find him we will turn him in.
Oh and thanks for the Helton close up that will help.

Beyond all that, enjoy your build, and your pool.
The guys are doing a nice job so far.

I've posted twice on this forum and both times have received sarcastic and angry responses. Wow. Not feeling the love!

He isn't representing himself as supervising or managing my construction project. For better or for worse, I am. I designed the pool, I choose the subs, schedule them, agree on a price, meet with them to discuss what we're looking for and pay them. My 'consultant' is someone with industry experience who is obviously able to see things that I would not.

Wow, someone is on their high horse.

If someone paid one of your employees to give some advice and consult a homeowner would you turn them in as well????

phxownerbuilder - LOVE the pool. Thanks for sharing. It's lots of fun to see the demolition and a new pool forming!

As far as the others who are on their own high horse, I can sense their rage and it seems very displaced. If they are upset, they should contact the person they are upset with and not makes nasty remarks on this site. What a downer -

On the positive side, your pool is looking awesome!

I doubt just-a-pb needs my support, but I do know where he's coming from (and no, I'm not a pool builder, or even have any pool related job). Here's the deal:

Someone I know in the solar panel biz pays out about $30K a year in license, permits, inspection fees. One of his main competitors doesn't pull permits until forced to do so (one local town just makes work halt until a permit is paid for with no penalty).

Biz isn't as great as it used to be, and that $30K represents one worker no longer on the payroll - and yes he does get steamed when he talks about it, and yes he does make calls to city hall when he finds a non-permitted site - I thought he was a bit over the top - but then again I didn't stand in his shoes and hand out a pink slip around Thanksgiving either.

So, was just-a-pb over the top? I think so, but then again I haven't walked in his shoes either.

Phnx, here is some love from the South! It looks like a great job so far and we all get burned on both sides of the licensing issue...I acted as general contractor on my house remodel (all bids were over 100k-I did it for less than 50k)..the licensed plumber screwed up my plumbing and I'll probably eventually have to have someone come in the future to re do his 3 attempts to correct it..it's functional after three re-do's but was not fun having the floors I personally tiled ripped up 2x and having to reset them myself. While the electrician with 30+ years but no license (not against the law in my county) found problems in my existing home and even helped me correct those plus many other things, he got his job right on the first go. While I understand folks are sensitive to the economic woes, so are the homeowners, those of us who are willing to take on the stress and learn from others doing it themselves have to be resourceful...I'm sorry, but of all the pool contractors in my community, I have not seen one crew that had English speaking subs...and I doubt citizenship...so going around talking about reporting can bite a lot of people.

That said, I'm probably going to contract my own pool in the next months...I will be watching your build and appreciate all your details...I have a backhoe guy who does great work, a supplier for my materials, and an overseer who has retired from pool building but is helping me as a favor...we are building up our farm to run a summer camp for foster children so we take as many offers of assistance as we can! Mine will be a vinyl pool and fairly straight forward, see no issues other than finding a better plumber to relocate my well lines that feed the outdoor spickets...I would like to know more about your decking choices and any electrical upgrades you're making (using colorlogic lights or similar?) Thanks for posting your progress!!

No high horse here,
If this is just a guy then no big deal.

What upsets me and many other builders in this town are so called "consultants" which are esentially contracting with out a license, insurance, or any liability. They sell people crap subs that cant work for good builders, and take kickbacks from everyone. Generally they are the slime of the earth.
We have shut many down, but they keep poping up. Especially now when there are so many qualified people out of work.
These people dont affect my business, as I dont advertise, and only work word of mouth.
But they hurt the industry as a whole.

I am quite sure this is where Natural was going with his question.

Racket,
You dont have any of these types in your neck of the woods?
Or do you guys just string um up!

So just to be clear I was not hammering on you, or your build PHX, but that "consultant" word gets me riled.

OK, cool. So just before the holidays, we were able to make some more progress. Demo, Excavation, Plumbing, Steel and Electrical are now done really happy with each of our subs so far. Shotcrete, Rockwork and Decking all lined up to go! We still havenÂt decided on interior yet. ThereÂs a product out here called Baja Pebble, which is less $ than PebbleSheen, so weÂre still wrestling with that one. We passed our city pre-gunite inspection and will get shotcrete on Monday.

Lmhall  When this is over, IÂm sure IÂll have some good lessons learned. We went with 2 Intellibrite lights  hope theyÂre cool! And weÂre going with travertine pavers for deck.

Digging Trenches

Plumbing for In-Floor cleaner heads

End of a long day plumbing  those guys worked hard!

Plumbing and equipment

Steel shell being put together, before being lifted

Pool Light and Rock Pocket

Plumbing, Steel and Electrical done

Waterfall/Grotto Pad steel

BTW, ItÂs amazing to read different posts in this forum and see how pools are done differently across the country, as well as the variety of features. Many of the pools IÂve seen have integrated spas but not in-floor systems. Guess weÂre the opposite.

Happy New Year All!

Who cares, that "consultant" fulfills a need that PHX has. More than likely PHX wouldn't ever pay people like us to build their pools because they feel they can do it themselves.

I know how PHX feels. I have a new house starting in a few months. I have never built a house, but there is no way that I can afford to pay a GC to do it, so instead, I hire quality subs, and pay people to consult me when I get stuck. I really don't care about the legality of what the consultant is doing, because I feel that I am smart enough to filter out the BS.

I am surprised you're using copper conduit for the lights and not pvc. I you used the thicker L type. I take it it's because the local code doesn't permit pvc.

What floor system are you using? How many zones? Looks like it's 3 heads per zone.

Is that #4 or #5 rebar?

Is the painted pipe that the equipment to protect it from UV?

Scott

Poolguynj AZ code requires a conductive material for conduit for anything that touches water. In case of a leak in the light, the light will still be grounded.

Also, were using the Paramount PV3 system for in-floor. There are 25 heads and 6 zones, as determined by Paramounts computerized analysis of our design. The painted PVC is for UV protection.

As for steel, we had it installed per our structural engineering results. We have #3 @ 12" OC as a base everywhere in the pool, but many areas of extra. Beneath each rock pocket is #3 @ 6" OC each way, and the deeper end and grotto is #4 @ 4" OC vertical and #3 @ 6" OC horizontal.

Grotto steel

Deeper End

Rock Pockets

Baja Step and Table

Scott,
The light conduit is brass. It is generally the standard out here, all though PVC is allowed, it is only used by some of the super cheap companies.

Sun here is nasty so pipes above ground are all painted to protect from UV, plus it looks really nice when finished.

Phx,
Again your subs are doing a decent job so far.

Curious where you were able to purchase a PV-3 system as they are only sold to Authorized builders. Hmmmmmmm

Just-a-pb, what are the benefits of using brass in lieu of PVC? I have only seen this in really old pools.

Not so sure about the method of compaction used on this job. Pressure without kneading in 12 inch lifts is minimal.

I'm with phxownerbuilder all the way. It is my opinion that someone who picks and steals from the brains of legitimate contractors along with utilizing the plans of photos of pools built by legitimate contractors by requesting documentation of their work product either through suggestions or images has questionable moral values irregardless of their stated motives and reasoning.

OOPS: Meant to say that I am 100% with "just-a-pb" not
"phxownerbuilder" and/or those who try to educate and feed themselves from the table of honest and ethical folks.

* Posted by martha21 (My Page) on
Sun, Jan 3, 10 at 13:54

I'm with phxownerbuilder all the way. It is my opinion that anyone who picks and steals from the brains of legitimate contractors by utilizing the plans and photos of pools built by those contractors through requesting documentation of their work product via suggestions and images has serious and questionable moral values irregardless of their stated motives and reasoning.

PHX - Great progress! Thanks for sharing the pictures.

martha21 - isn't this site about "picking and stealing from the brains of legitimate contractors.....plans and photos of pools built by those....." Hmmm - in fact, there are lots of pool builders willing to share on this site. So, what's the big deal?

Seriously?!? I thought it would be cool to participate in this forum and share in the pool-building camaraderie. Now Im being called immoral, getting interrogated by the PB gestapo to find those dastardly, traitorous subs who do work for Owner/Builders, and not sure what just-a-pb is implyingthat I went down to Nogales and bought my in-floor system thru a Mexican pool-supply-ita?

Im not trying to upset pool builders, but what I represent as an Owner/Builder seems to threaten them. Back in the pool-building heyday, Owner/Builders were, as a group, the 3rd largest pool builder in AZ, and there is nothing immoral or unethical about doing it. Sites like this and the excellent howibuiltmyownpool.com are great resources. Part of the problem is that since 2008, there have been at least 46 pool builders here in AZ who have gone under. Many times leaving homeowners with half-built pools, and subs completely out to dry on the thousands of dollars owed them. Ive got a lot of respect for the good pool builders, I just made a decision to do an O/B.

Martha - Do you believe that anyone who reads thru the posts on this forum to get an idea of what they like and what they dont like is doing something immoral? I thought thats what this site was for to check out other peoples pools and get ideas of what you want for your pool. My pool most closely incorporates positive design influences from my neighbors pools (also Owner/Builders) after countless days of swimming, and does not incorporate negative influences from my own previous pool. I had designed my pool before finding this site, but have gotten good advice about skimmer and light placement and have greatly benefitted from seeing pebble-sheen colors and decking choices in real-life applications.

I hire legitimate licensed/bonded/insured subcontractors who are experts in their trade, and who are also used by the top pool builders in the area. As their customer, they give me the advice and workmanship that I pay them for. I didnt steal anything and take exception to your comment.

Cmon, cant we all just get along?

phxownerbuilder,

Don't sweat the extremely small percentage of posters on this forum that offer this kind of negativity. This is actually a great place to share and learn with other pool owners, as well as a few builders. Some people obviously didn't get enough love and attention as children. :0) Keep the updates coming. Although our pool was completed in July, I read this forum every day trying to learn as much as I can from the experiences of others.

I don't remember seeing any martha21 posts in this forum before. While I noticed she's been a member since '07, I am not impressed with the way she is introducing herself.

One of the beauty of the forum is you can get wildly differing opinions with which you can use to form your own.

I have found that when people display an elevated level of passion on a topic here, something has happened. I would say there have been business situations that cost people substantially either directly or indirectly that may have had some level of similarity to your build situation at some point.

Owner builders, upon completion, should be congratulated when they follow a reasonable path.

Phx, please don't take it personally. You're not doing anything wrong as near as I can tell. Residual anger needs to vent.

martha21, while I strongly agree that the low lifes that break the laws are somewhat problematic in any industry, it very much sounded like you saying Phx was using them in his build with without any evidence. I think that that was unfounded. Most people willing to share usually have nothing to hide and are honest folk. This should never stop!

Scott

Martha,

All of the people that participate in this forum benefit in some way. Me, I'm a DIY. And the ONLY reason I was able to be a DIY is because I studied 100s of threads, learning from the experience of others. A large part of my education was from the posts of the experts, mostly builders, that participate in this forum.

You could make the argument that the photos posted here by owners are "work product" of PBs. I would disagree. Is your home the "work product" of the contractor that built it? No.

Know this: The PBs that contribute to this forum are a great asset to everyone, from DIYs to OBs to other PBs. But the PBs are here for their own reasons. They get work here; and some probably learn a few things, and not just from the other PBs. They offer free advice, and in exchange they become recognized as knowledgeable and expert. People come to trust them, and are likely to hire them.

For example, if someone was looking for a PB in central New Jersey, and they happened to read some of the posts in this forum, they would be likely to contact poolguynj, because they feel like they know him a little bit, and he seems like a guy that knows what he is doing.

So there is something here for everyone. Even you, why else would you be here?

Well put NY. I enjoy this site because from what I have seen there are some very knowledgable people on here. Believe me in this industry you have alot of here to day and gone tomorrow types so they never accumulate the knowledge that is really needed to be a true pool expert/professional. I for one am happy to see that some of the information that I or others that have been in this business for a while can contribute to make sure that anyone going at this on their own can at least know what to look for and build a great pool. So that being said phxownerbuilder your pool is looking great. Keep the pictures coming please.

Thanks,

David

If someone wanted me to bid on a new pool, I would have to pass. Fix, augment,refurb, thats a different story. I don't build em. I do know who's who and sometimes point people.

While I am in the service business, the education I have acquired cost me next to nothing except my time. I do learn a lot here too. Give freely what was given to you freely. I give freely here. In your back yard may be a different story. I do still have a mortgage and mouths to feed. :-)

If I were to put one in, I would still hire a PB. That's not to say that I wouldn't do a lot of the work that I am capable of and enjoy doing. This old boy isn't digging the trenches, wiring rebar, futzing with township engineers...

One of these days I will buy the winning lottery ticket.

Scott

WOW,
Don't know what left field Martha came out of. Please dont support me anymore.

I have no issues with O/B's. I have and will continue to give advice and support to them.

As Racket said, the people that do this would not use a company like ours anyway.

Phx,
Not suggesting you acquired your system from mexico.
Just curious how you got a design and product that is only to be sold to Authorized Pool Builders.
Keep the updates coming I am on pins and needles.
Did you pass your inspection?
I just cant wait for the shotcrete, and waterfalls.

Reno,
Brass has always been the standard here. The municipalities are big, and slow to change.
As far as benifits, it is very strong, wont crack, can be buried 6" deep, way better bond, as well as ground to light niche, no #8 that needs potting or will corode, generally safer in that aspect. We really dont run any PVC electrical except for LV. It is all wrapped rigid IMC or Brass.

Where did you go?

Been busy with life, work and sick kids. Oh, and this pool building thing isnt as easy as it looks! :)

The pool build is coming along, but has slowed this week because of the rain. Shotcrete, rockwork and tile are done. AB is down for the travertine pavers, but the coping and deck work wont happen until next week.

Ill see about posting some more photos this weekend.

Just-a-pb, your solar shelf pool looks awesome. Your pools = cool; your sarcasm, not so much.

Thanks for posting the pool project pictures. I completed my DIY vinyl pool last summer as the home owner builder GC and hired out subs for specific things - including consulting. I leverage the information on this and other sites for tips, tricks, lessons learned.

It is too bad the pros feel threatened by the DIY types. I for one would never have been able to do a pool had I paid a pro. The three bids I received were double what it cost me myself to do here in Utah. The way I look at it is a pro builder didn't really lose business from me because I was never in the market to hire one.

Internet technology has facilitated insane amounts of knowledge transfer to the average joe - and I love it. Oh and by the way, I work on my own cars, grow some of my own food, customize my home, repair my own computers, teach people how to play guitar, etc etc all from partcipating in forums and internet communities.

Here is some of the progress...

Shotcrete One guy shaping the wall, another using a water level. Nozzleman is shooting the other side

Bench, post and footwell for Table

Last guy in the pool, troweling on his way out

Getting some help watering down the shell

Grotto Building setting the pillar rocks and drilling holes for more rebar

Grotto rebar almost done

Pouring Grotto cement

Placing the rocks for the grotto and accent boulders

The Grotto roof and interior are artificial rest is real. Tin foil is used to make rock texture

Pouring the table top

AB down for pavers and waterline tile is in

Patio work has begun and should complete next week along with fencing. Still trying to decide on interior pebble color.

Looking Good,
You did use the best shotcrete company in the valley. They do very nice work.

I know I'm resurrecting a pretty old post, but I'd really love to see some completed shot's of this one.

For furrysquid and anyone else in the future (future, future...) who is reading this thread, here are some photos of the completed pool.

Ohhh, thanks for posting these pictures! It looks fantastic!!!! What finish did you end up getting? It's beautiful.

Very nice. Can you give some info on the misters? How difficult were they to install, etc...

STUNNING! can I ask you about the slide? Who makes that? My kids would love that!

Thanks for the kind words about the pool, we love it!

We decided on an interior product called Baja (Mini) Pebble in Electric Blue. It's very similiar to Pebble Tec, but the bid was roughly half of what we got from the 2 local PebbleTec subs. Not sure if anyone outside of Phoenix distributes it.

We are fortunate to live relatively close to Fogco, which is one of the premier mist pump manufacturers in the US. Most of their pumps are sold to mist installation companies, but they also sell to regular joe's like me. I went over a couple times and worked out a material list with thm. Nice peeps! The pump is a 1000psi enclosed pulley driven pump located next at our equipment. We ran conduit under the patio for the high-pressure nylon tubing, which then goes up a column (still need to paint that) and to a tee. We purchased 7 10' sections of 3/8" copper pipe which were prefabricated to accept brass nozzels every 24". It took my father-in-law and I a total of about 4-5 hours to: figure out how to set up the inlet (with the filter) and outlet from the pump, pull and connect the the HP tubing, cut and sweat the copper pipe together, screw in 32 nozzels and fasten it all to the house/patio. My FIL is a very handy dude, so I would have taken 2x as long, but if you know how to solder and are fairly handy, you could do it yourself. BTW, They do sell brass couplings to use instead of solder.

The slide is made by Step 2 and is called the "Naturally Playful Big Folding Slide". However, the brown/tan version that we have is not easy to find since Step 2 must have decided to change the color to brown/green. We found ours used on Craigslist.

Love the decking, love the color of the water, love the grotto!

I'm going to try and convince my DW to have the rock at the end of the baja shelf with bubbler added like yours. How do you like that feature?

If I may ask, how is the PV3 working out for you?

WOW! It's hard to believe it's the same backyard! I love the water color as well as the way the total package has completely transformed your yard! Congrats and enjoy!
Joanne

Total transformation. I'd never seen the tables like that until this forum, but I like the way you have yours placed as an extension of the deck area with tables and chairs and in shade and mist. Sounds very good for your climate.

@mudn - Yes, we really like our 'Geyser Rock'. It's a huge hit with the kids, especially the 3-and-under crowd who've been cruising the baja step for an hour and are ready for a bit of excitement by jumping into daddy's arms. The kids line up for their turn to jump off it, just to swim right back into line. It does take away some swimming space, and makes the pool seem slightly smaller since it breaks up that 'large expanse of water' sensation. But it's a fun feature and we're happy with it.

The PV3 system is working well too, although really we'll have to wait a couple (or 5-10) years to really find out if it was a good choice. We do have 2 small 'dead zones' that accumulate some dirt. One is right beside a wall in the deep end, and the other is just beneath my 3rd step, which curves inward. The head shoots directly into the middle of that concave surface, so some of the dirt pushed there can't get out. Who designed this pool anyway? Oops :) Paramount advertises a 99% Cleaning Guarantee, which is not as big of a deal as it sounds - on a 600 sq ft surface area pool, that would leave 6 sq ft of acceptable 'dead zones'. We have about 1 sq ft of dead zones, so we're at 99.8% clean. We also had 1 pop-up pop completely out of its shell. We called the pop-up dude, and since they have a lifetime warranty, he swapped it out with a new shell and head the next day.

Great article!
I have been looking for a good pool builder in the valley, but sadly all have given me estimates in excess of $80k!

So now I am considering the Owner/ builder route. If possible could you send me contact names and numbers of the subs you used.
Thanks
skrhone@hotmail(dot)com

Gorgeous Pool...don't listen to the haters...they need to get off the computer and go try to sell some pools :) No one should make you feel bad...my Dad did my pool that way and as long as you are using licensed ROC contractors they have two year warranties and they do not want anything bad on their record. I help my Dad who is a 'consultant' and he has a heart of gold...I am sure Les natural_one (first question always ask new pool builds in AZ) and just-a-pb will have alot to say now...it is always them trashing the owner builders but so far I have seen nothing but happy customers...sorry guys...love the pictures of just-a-pb's personal pool and house looks like a very nice home and area...you must have been making pretty good money...please don't take that post down I am sure the people buying pools from you would love to see what they are paying for :) Bottom line your pool is gorgeous!!!! And thank you for sharing :)

^ too funny. I really dont want to get into this with you, but...

1- you dont know me, nor is my name "Les".
2- attacking just-a-pb's personal accomplishments? very cool, stay classy.
3- Tell your dad Dennis hello.

Phxownerbuilder- glad to see it turned out so well. looks like the kids love it! have fun with it this summer!

Phx, just wanted to say... awesome! I was looking for someone who was doing what I wanted to do, and you nailed it. I just finished building my house as an OB so I don't plan on opening any new projects until next year (I did the new house in a tough economy and a new baby on the way, so it was stressful), but can't wait to pick your brain. Thanks for the pics.

In building my house I got involved in nearly all trades. I was not afraid to work on anything. In fact, I did all the electrical on a dual 150 amp service, so I learned a lot. I'm not in construction by trade (I make medical software), but I believe that the information is out there, and if you take your time you can do anything.

There is definitely a place for OBs. OBs don't do it just to save money (although that's certainly important), we do it because we love the satisfaction we get from doing it ourselves. I also like the direct control over quality I get as an OB. Let me tell you one thing, no one is going to take my god-given right to do things on my own property away from me.

But, I couldn't be happier with the inspectors and building department in my city. They get that, and were very helpful.

Anyway... thanks again