Return to the Pools & Spas Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Posted by bobvilas (My Page) on
Tue, Nov 30, 10 at 13:38

Hello pool Gurus,

I am helping a friend who started building this 40'x 20' negative edge pool at his house. He owns a ranch so he had plenty of equipment available to do the dig. He hired a man on our island to help get it to the gunite stage. Confidence has dwindled so now they are no longer working together. I have been a tile contractor for 23 years and have done countless pools and water features. The shell appears to be done well enough but we have some questions as to the plumbing. I was hoping to post the info we have and see if someone here could help us decide the best possible way to pump the existing plumbing. We are not looking for a large sheet of water in transit over the weir. Just more of a nice wet wall look. We do not, however, want a "drippy" wall look. We are interested in variable speed or dual speed pump options as we have heard that they can be more energy efficient.

Main pool is 30,000 gallons (rectangle 20' x 40')[Negative edge on on 40' side]
Collection Basin is 1300 gallons (rectangle 3' x 40' x 1.5')
Jacuzzi is 670 gallons (raised 18" above pool) [spills into pool]
Equipment house floor is built 1' above pool waterline and about 20' away from pool.
Only Skimmer is set in Collection Basin and 5' below main pool waterline.

I have entered a link to a diagram I made of the plumbing as well as some pictures. Let me know what other information is needed.
Thank you so much in advance for any help you can give.

Bobby

Here is a link that might be useful: Plumbing Diagram


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

At first glance my concern would be "is the catch basin big enough?" On a 20 x 40 Pool with the 40 side being the edge side, my catch basin would have been 3 feet wide and 3 feet deep. You have to think of surge. If several people jump in at the same time you don't want the catch basin to overflow. You also don't want the catch basin to dry up trying to get the dege to work. I didn't see a picture for where you plumbing is stubbed up. I always have a dedicated basin pump so the edge can be turned on and off independantly.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Good Point sceadu. The basin walls are 5' high on the pool side and 4' high on the other. It's just that the guy who started the pool put the skimmer at 16" off the bottom of the catch basin. Not sure why in such a deep basin he put the skimmer so low. Keep the critique coming please. We need to work this out. Thank you for any and all information you can throw at it.

If you look at the link on my original post you can see the basin.

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

What equipment brand has been selected?

Are the spa and negative edge expected to work simultaneously?

How many returns in the spa? It looks like you might have then on two different levels, calf and back. Are there separate loops for each level? Multiple blowers? What jet bodies were installed?

Lighting? How many niches in the pool?

The weir is pitched in the wrong direction for a wet wall look, IMHO. This is pitched so the water has the highest likelihood to break it's adhesion to the wall and want to sheer, given enough flow.

Pitching it the other way would have allowed easier dialing in of the flow to provide the exact wet wall look desired, especially with a variable speed pump.

What auto fill are you using? It is in trough, right?

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

bobvilas,
The first thing that needs to be done is to remove the fixed skimmer from the surge pit. The water level in the pit will have two levels, the static level when the equipment is off and the running level which could be 6-12" lower.
You can use a floating skimmer in the pit for debrey on the water.
Use an electonic water fill set to the running level.
The pool main drain is unnecessary. Your filter pump will draw water from the pit and return to the pool. A variable speed pump will work well for this application.
From a suction stand point, treat the pit just like a pool, one skimmer(floating) and split suctions with a 3-way valve at the equipment. The 3 inch plumbing in the pit should be sufficient to get the effect you are looking for. Should take 1-3 gallons of water per foot of edge to keep it wet.
Good luck.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

First let me give a big THANK YOU to everyone for taking the time to help me out with this! I know information is valuable and I sincerely appreciate it.

The Low skimmer has always concerned me. I was not aware of the availability of a floating skimmer. It sounds like that would allow us to fill the trough higher?

The weir is definitely canted the opposite of what I am used to seeing. I didn't apply cantilever over the edge in hopes that it will help water "stick" to the wall. I also used quartzite hoping the texture will give a nice effect. I did use Laticrete Hydroban (waterproofing) under all tile and stone, btw.

The owner was told that the pool and spa would work at the same time. The PB told him that the three 3" Optional returns in the lower section of main pool (see plumbing diagram) could be connected to a separate pump if we wanted to run just the negative edge.

The spa has four 3" suction and eight 1 1/2" returns all at back level. I was told that those are set up to be on a separate 3HP motor. Then there is one 2" return in the bottom of the spa that I was told would run with the four 1 1/2" returns in the pool.

The PB was wanting to order Pentair Whisperflow originally. 1.5HP for main pool and 3HP for spa. I was concerned about the 1.5HP being adequate for the 40' of negative edge.

Others have recommended Sta-Rite. Any guidance would be appreciated. Having a distributor in Hawaii would also be helpful.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

bobvilas,
3HP is fine for the jets. You need to find out if the 2" spa return that is tied in with the pool returns is tied in underground. if it is, the spa water level will drain to the water level of the pool. Spa return needs a check valve. In fact you will need check valves on everything coming out of the pit.
A 4x160 variable speed filter pump should be able to heat the spa and get flow over the wall. You will be able to set the valve rotations with the Intellitouch controller.
The floating skimmer will allow you to set any water height you need. Just mark and install the skimmer after you set the water levels you want.
It sounds like you have additional plumbing for a separate pump for the wall. This may be necessary because of the stone edge. The roughness of the edge determines how much flow is necessary. The rough stone will require more flow and it will probably be necessary to grind the edge after you see how it works. Good lock.
What island are you on?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I will check on the spa return Golfgeek.

I figured I could grind the stone to achieve the best line and desired fall. I want to fill the pool and make adjustment then.

How do you feel about Pentair? Would an Inteliflow or Intelpro be a good choice?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

1) A 3 HP pump is likely to be too much pump for the spa. That was why I asked which jet bodies were used in the spa. Since I don't see a need for a separate pump for the spa, the pool pump should suffice to run the pool and spa. The second pump will be strictly for the running the negative edge. Two variable speed pumps are suggested. This will allow the owner to dial in exactly the desired flow and reduce the amount of electricity used in operation.

2) The wall will need it's own pump. A filter is suggested but not required. The primary filtering and circulation needs will come from the pool/spa pump and will be independent of the wall system.

3) AFAIK, most floating skimmers use a return inlet's flow to create a venturi at the mouth. This isn't practical in the catch basin since the returning water is coming down the wall and not from an actual return. If the catch basin was wider, it would reduce the water level changes and a skimmer might work but this isn't the case here.

4) Most catch basins I have seen only have bottom drain outlets and no skimmers due to the difference in water levels in the basin. This also allows a larger basin depth delta. This is how I think this pool should be.

A scoop net is typically used to remove debris from the pit. Some may use a battery powered vac to clean the debris missed with the scoop net.

Running the wall will substantially increase your chlorine demand. I do recommend a second but smaller chlorinator for the wall system. You haven't given us any set equipment lists except for the possible pump sizes to be used so once you decide what the plumbing needs are, the gear you need at the equipment pad and the controls to be used.

Do the local codes require an SVRS to be installed? This may impact the plumbing since the use of check valves on the return inlets of the spa (floor return) and the edge wall returns.

I didn't see a pool sweep line for the pool. Is there one and I just didn't see it in the drawing or picture?

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

bobvilas,
Pentair Intelliflow or Starite Intellipro are both made by Pentair and both work equally well.
In the basin size you have, a quick calculation indicates that if you raise the pool water 1/4" you should have about 4" of drop in the basin. Leave at least a foot of freeboard in the basin for overflow from pool activity and it's best to operate the pool when its in use.
There are several ways to build these EDGE pools as you can see. If I were building this expensive pool I would want to have options like a separate jet pump and the ability to increase the edge flow for a different look. This is where a second pump would work well.
It should be noted that these edge pool basins are used like large skimmers, the pool debrey flows into the basin and is then filtered out or big debrey is netted out. All water for the filter pump and/or edge pump originates in the basin. Make sure you have and autofill in the basin, NOT the pool.
It would be helpful to know which jet body was installed so you would know the flow rate for that jet. Without knowing I would allow 15 GPM per jet. This means you need a pump that produces at least 120 GPM not figuring losses thru the plumbing/filter/heater.
I would suggest you use a separate jet pump and an Itelliflo or Intellipro for the filter pump. You can always add the edge pump if you want more flow. Use a filter in the 60 sq. ft. range and a heater with minimum 325,000 BTU for heating the spa. Good luck.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Some feedback directly from the owner would be helpful.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I am posting a copy of the Equipment list that was made for the pool. If you could, let me know what you think should go and what seems reasonable.

There are no jet bodies currently installed in the spa and I don't see anything specified in the proposed order, either. There is currently just the eight 1 1/2" return pipes stubbed out in the spa.

I also don't see an auto fill listed. There is a 1 1/2" pipe stubbed out just below the skimmer in the trough. His diagram doesn't show it, however.

1 - 1.5 HP Pentair Whisperflow high head rate pump (pool)
1 - 3 HP Pentair Whisperflow high head full rate pump (spa)
1 - Sta -Rite System 3 cartridge filter 300 sq, ft.
1 - Pentair 333,000 BTU Heater
1 - i7 Intellitouch computer system w/load center
1 - spa side control 4-way (100')
2 - Pentair Intellibrite pool lights (100' cords)
1 - Pentair Intellibrite spa light (100' cord)
1 - Pentair IC40 salt system w/power center
1 - Pentair Freat White pool cleaner
2 - Jandy Valves 3 way
8 - Jandy Valves 2 way
2 - Jandy Check Valves

I am going by tomorrow and can take any picture views that me be helpful. Thank you all again for the help!

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

bobvilas,
Cut one of the caps off of one of the spa jets and look down the pipe to see if they installed a venturi tee(jet body). It should be within a foot of the finish gunite wall. Also check for a pipe marked "AIR". This is the line that provides air for the venturi jets or look for individual 1/2 or 3/4" pipe near each jet. They may have stubbed individual air supply lines. Good luck.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I can almost guarantee the jet bodies are there. I expect when you shine a light down the pipe after cutting off the cap, you will see a hex shaped nozzle in the other end. This nozzle's opening is what will tell us how many GPM each jet will require.

A 3 HP pump will want to push a lot more water than these jets are designed for. In fact, I would expect that with that much excess pressure, the air line will get backed up trying to relieve the back pressure and the unmentioned blower these jets would need to overcome the pressure.

The Great White sweep is a suction side cleaner. The only suction line to connect it to is the trough skimmer. That's a big problem, especially if the skimmer is removed from the trough as golfgeek suggest (and I agree). An electric robot is going to be needed. Don't run it with the wall on though as the cord will drift to the wall, possibly over it if the flow needed for the home owner's desired effect is fairly substantial. It might carry the cord over, while unlikely, is a potential issue I can foresee.

The Jandy valves should be the black Never-Lube versions, not the gray ones with the grease cap.

With cartridge filters, bigger is better. The mentioned filter is adequate but will require more frequent cleanings and will result in a shorter life expectancy for the cartridges. The larger model (500 sq. ft.) will also result in lower back pressure and slower water velocity in the tank as the water passes the filtering elements.

Bump the IC40 to the IC60. The wall, when running, will increase the chlorine demand substantially due the atmospheric exposure allowing the chlorine to gas off.

The iS10 spa-side control will give the owner better control of the lights and if variable speed pumps are used, allows more exact control of the pumps and Intellibrites at the spa without bringing the unmentioned wireless remote to the spa. The wireless is great in the house or on the patio if Screen Logic isn't employed.

The use of two Inelliflo VS-SVRS pumps will allow dialing in the exact flows needed for the wall, pool filtering needs and spa pressure needs, each being different. They will also meet VGB SVRS requirements for new construction to improve safety. The motor on this pump is far more efficient than the ones in the list which keeps the electric bill down, enough to where the added costs of the pumps will be paid back in reduced energy costs over time.

Plumbing the pumps so one runs the wall and the other is used for the pool and spa will maximize flexibilty, allow the pool to be filtered at a low speed which is the most energy efficient way.

A small salt cell or tablet feeder for the trough is suggested to add additional chlorine. The trough may sit a few hours, not being fed enough chlorine to keep bio-badies and algae at bay. Remember, the water in through just came down the weir wall, further reducing the free chlorine level from the pool water that fills it. That free chlorine level should be supplemented.

Has anything been plumbed in for an auto-fill? Dragging a hose doesn't sound like something the homeowner will want to do every couple days. Edge pools lose water faster, from spillage and evaporation than "standard" pools.

Hope this is useful.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The plumbing plan shows a 2" suction line at the side of the pool. The cleaner will work off the wall fitting although the wall fitting should be reduced to 1 1/2" at the wall. The cleaner will work like a normal suction cleaner. It will need a 3 way valve at the equipment to adjust the flow on the cleaner.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Missed that.

A difficult to find insider to f-threaded bushing will be needed so the sweep fitting's connector fits (it's 1-1/2", not 2") if the line coming through the wall isn't already a 1-1/2"

Looking at the last actual picture, it looks like the wall suction line for the sweep is already cut flush and just barely visible. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Next big question is what to do about the skimmer. I see it's front side in the picture but the back side is hidden. I assume there is an access in the back for cleaning out the skimmer basket. I don't like the idea of jacking it out if it isn't required.

If it can be made water tight up to the back access way, adding an electronic water level sensor there and the filler line to the skimmer's suction line(capped at the pad with the filler solenoid attached) might be a reasonable way to add the additional inches of basin capacity I suspect the homeowner will need for the edge wall to provide the effect the homeowner wants.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I LOVE YOU GUYS!

I am going by this morning to check on that vac line size and distance from the wall. I think you're right about it being close to flush already.

I will take a peek down the jets and see what (if anything) is going on with them.

I will get a photo of the skimmer setup for you. It is accessible from the top. I will post the picture in the same link as before.

I really like the idea of being able to use the skimmer piping to balance the trough.

I agree completely that these are not people who will want to drag a hose over to the pool every couple of days. I certainly don't want to go over there and drag it over for them, either. How would we adapt an auto fill now? Don't they have to be set at water level? I should also mention that the pool is not on the wettest spot on earth, but you can see it from there. Are there any special considerations for excessive rain water entering the pool?

Thank you again,

Bobby

BTW - you guys planning any vacations to Kauai so you come give us a hand? =)


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Assumption: The skimmer will NOT be used as a skimmer.

The skimmer access is at the top of the basin wall? Long way to reach the basket. That access way needs to be made water tight all the way down to the plastic skimmer body and up a foot to ensure water doesn't weep if the water level is high.

I am thinking that the skimmer and the access way in the wall can become a modified Skimmer/stand pipe type of installation with a Levelor K-2300 Auto-Fill system.

Hopefully, one or more of the builders can chime in since they are builders and I just fix 'em.

As for what to do if the water level is too high, a 3 way valve on the discharge side of the wall's pump should be added. One side to the pool and the other to a drainage line. The pool itself can't overflow, only the basin can.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Turns out there is an auto fill down in the trough. The 1 1/2" equalizer line is set below the skimmer (so 12" from the bottom of the trough. That sure seems low. I posted some new pictures showing it's location. The original link from my first post will get you there.

The fitting for the vac is a 1 1/2" female thread at the pool. It is a 2" in the equipment room. It is currently about 1" off of the pool shell.

I am waiting to hear back about the jet bodies used. Will post info when I get it.

Thanks as always,

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The 1" protrusion is perfect for the sweep line. It allows a small bump in the wall that makes finding it easier. Plaster is spread to a 3/4" thickness for the most part. At the sweep, there will be a little extra plaster used.

The trough is now a different story. The skimmer's use will create more problems than it's worth. The new picture shows the ledge the skimmer and autofill tops, something we couldn't see before.

The trough's water level will likely vary more than the height of the skimmer opening. If the level goes below the opening, you will lose prime, resulting in a surging effect at the wall. If the water level is raised too high, the autofill is flooded and I'll bet the top of the skimmer mouth isn't sealed resulting in water penetration, deterioration of the gunite and water loss.

The use of a float valve in this application is, IMHO, wrong. It's not unlike a toilet tank float. The distance between the High and Low water marks will likely be exceded meaning the system is going to add water when the wall is on, possibly needlessly nearly every time the system is on. If the overflow port was connected, the owner will lose water every time the system shuts off.

Given that the wall edge is a bit rough, I expect the higher end of what golfgeek suggested as needed flow will be used for the desired effect, 3 GPM/ft. The basin's water level will drop more with the higher flow. That will likely mean disabling the skimmer and ensuring it's sealed.

If the basin were another foot wider, you'd have been OK I think.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

bobvilas,
Things could be worse. The skimmer could be mounted outside the trough like normal pool.
The skimmer and auto-fill need to be chipped out. Stub up the auto pipe and the skimmer pipe. This will allow you to raise the water level in the trough to whatever height you need. Another 18" would be helpful. Once the pool is running you can establish the exact water level you want. You can use a mechanical float, you just need to set it at the running level. Check out the A&A Manufacturing website. I think they make a mechanical float specifically for this application. Or Jandy makes an electronic float with a high and low setting.
Do the same with the skimmer. Find the running level and set the floating skimmer on the pipe. It moves with the water level and has a basket to catch the floating debrey. I'll look for the model I've used in the past and get it for you.
I've only built 40-50 of these and always find something new to make them work better. And everyone has a little different way to do it. Mine's pretty traditional. Take all the water from the trough for filtering the pool and spa. Use a separate jet pump. I use a separate jet pump in all my spas. I like this method. It actually simplifies the plumbing. There is no right or wrong way about doing this. It's mostly personal preference. The 4x160 pump can filter, heat the spa and wet the wall.
The plan indicates there are a couple more 3" lines in the trough. Are these attached to the skimmer or are they plubed separate to the equipment pad?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Not quite sure about 3" lines your referring to. There are three 3" returns on the weir but they flow into the main pool. He said they were there if we wanted to run the weir on it's own with a separate pump. Which brings me to yet another question. If the spa is heated and doesn't have a skimmer or auto-fill, can we heat the spa and still run the spillway into the main pool? Or does just a dedicated spa pump run when you heat the spa (no spillway)? How do you compensate for bather displacement?

Thanks for the advise on the skimmer/auto-fill. That skimmer being so low in the trough is what triggered me to question the set up in the first place.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Bob,

I am still partial to running the wall on a dedicated pump and the pool and spa on another. It offers what I think would be the most flexibility and most efficient way to operate the pool.

I think the original plumbing folks thought that too given the way the pipes at the pad are labeled. I suspect the unlabeled line, btw, is the air line for a blower to the spa.

The spa will spill in the pool when full and additional displacements are added, be it from people or when the pool is filtering and water is added via the floor line in the spa. It will never need an autofill or skimmer. The pool is refilled from the basin.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

bobvilas,
Let's look at the basic operation. The filter pump draws water from the trough, the water runs thru the filter and heater and on the return side the water goes back to the pool except for a small amount that is diverted to the spa to circulate it. This is the normal filtration mode.
To heat the spa, the valves move, and all of the suction and return water goes thru the spa. With a single pump system(poolguynj) that water would go thru the jets. With a separate jet pump the heated water would go thru the spa return line and the jet pump would draw water from the spa and return it to thru the jets.
You will have the ability to isolate the spa so you can use it. You will also be able to flow all of the return water thru the spa if you want significant flow over the spa dam wall. All the excess water ends up in the trough when you shut everything off. It is actually pretty simple. The plumbing at the equipment pad will look like any other pool/spa combo except for some check valves.

Note: If there is only one suction line from the spa to the pad then the system was designed for a single pump system. If there are two suction lines from the spa going to the pad then it was designed to accomadate a jet pump.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I just got back from Hawaii. I spent a couple of weeks working on a few projects there. Is this on the Big island, or Maui?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

It looks like there may be a misconception with my proposed plumbing vs golfgeek's.

All three water locations, the pool, trough, and spa, have separate drains.

The pool's return plumbing has a return in the spa. It's in the floor and I seriously doubt it has a jet body.

I am also suggesting a two pump system. One for the wall and one for the pool. This allows the wall to run on demand. I also recommend using two variable speed pumps.

The pool, when not being used doesn't need the wall to run continuously but should run for 10 minutes every few hours to skim the pool. If nobody is there to see the wall, why run it?

The wall pump will need to generate a substantial flow to function. That leads to a fairly substantial power draw. The pool can run on a much lower flow rate, reducing the energy used when filtering and sanitizing.

There are also other added benefits to running the wall system on it's own. There is energy consumption, reduced aeration, the ability to heat the pool or spa, and the increased effectiveness of heating the pool.

The stone weir wall, because of the heavy texture, will require a pretty substantial flow to get the entire edge wet, very important for a negative edge effect to work. Electricity is not cheap out there. Recurring costs need to be considered.

Running the wall will increase the chlorine demand and aerate the water throwing the chemical balance off if run for eight hours a day and makes it much harder to heat the pool. If continuous running of the wall is desired, the automation system can be programmed to run like any other water feature, on and off with a single button on demand

Filtering the pool at a low flow rate allows the filter to work better and saves on power consumption.

As I mentioned in my earlier posts, filtering the basin is optional and adding floating tablet feeder to that system is encouraged to help keep the basin properly chlorinated. I know that in an earlier post, I suggested a tab feeder or cell but it occurred to me that this won't really help the basin. The floater will.

I also suggest using the IC-60 for it's added capacity over the IC-40 cell. You'll need it.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Thank you for the clarification Scott. That sounds like the best option. I guess where I am still confused is that they didn't intend on heating the pool, just the spa. I found out that he used Waterways Venturi Tee's in the eight 1 1/2" jets. What size pump would be optimal and can eight jets and the pool return run off the one pump? Also, what type of eyeballs do you recommend for the Venturi Tee Jet Body?

The pool is on Kauai racket. Wish I would have known you were here! =)

You guys are awesome! Thanks so much again,

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I would use a pentair intelliflo vs 3050 I use these on many of this style configuration (pool/spa with 8 jets)

You can jack it up high (3450 rpm) for the spa jets mode.

I would suggest something like this http://www.swimmingpoolsetc.com/25559-000.htm for the eyeballs.

I've never been to Kauai. I get down to maui, and the Kona side quite often. If you hit a wall I'm only 6 hours away =).


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Cost wise, it's just about the same to plumb for the pool and spa vs. the spa only. It just adds a lot of versatility to the heater.

If the gas supply can support it, bump up to the 400K unit. It takes the same amount of gas to heat the spa and does it a bit faster.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

bobvilas,
IMHO you would be wise to make sure you filter ALL the water in the pool/spa/trough. NOT just the pool/spa water as poolguynj suggests.
Constantly warm water temps and wind are your enemies. There is no good substitute for filtration, especially in your climate.
Using a separate pump for the dam wall is fine, but I find poolguynj's useage a poor application of the method. Having to run that pump everyday or every few hours is a waist of resources but would be absolutely necessary using his method.
You're building a pool that is, by its design, a little more expensive to keep up. Don't compound the problem. And don't make it more complicated than it really is. Good luck.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I believe I suggested that a filter be added for the wall system but noted that it isn't "required" quite early in the thread.

I feel that by running the wall on a consistent basis, energy and chemical usage will be substantially higher than filtering the main body at a slow rate and running the wall for a couple 10 minute cycles per day. The wall will need at least 80 GPM and possibly more because the texture of the stone will need to be overcome. I can filter, chlorinate and heat at 35 to 40 GPM. There is a substantial difference in energy usage.

It's been my experience that people don't constantly heat the pool but when a homeowner has an event, its nice to be able to. Warm pools get more use. It doesn't cost more to hook the heater up my way and . Whether the homeowner uses it for the pool is up to him.

Running the wall on a constant basis would make it very difficult to raise the pool temp because so much more water is exposed to air at the wall where the heat can more easily escape. It also takes a toll on chlorine demand, pH, and alkalinity. Calcium build up on the wall will be more likely to happen more with a constant flow. It will also cool the pool some.

The basin is well walled and this will prevent the sun from gaining direct access for the nearly the entire day and helps keep wind born debris out. The suggested use of a tab floater should provide sufficient additional chlorine to keep the basin sanitized. A scoop net, MDX drain covers in the basin and pool brush will keep the basin clean.

Without a good panoramic view of the environment, we can't tell what kind of impacts wind may have. For all we know, the prevailing winds may press against the wall requiring and even higher flow for the wall.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

bobvillas..for what it's worth, our 35K gallon negative edge pool is setup like poolguynj suggests. We have two 2 speed pumps that do the heavy lifting at reduced energy costs. During the hot Louisiana summers, the pool filter pump is ran at low speed for 18 hrs/day and the salt cell is set at 30 percent for chlorination needs. We run the negative edge pump at low speed for 4 hours per day to refresh the pit water with clean and chlorinated water. We only filter the main pool body and also have an infloor cleaner for the main pool, so this setup made sense to us.

We have no regrets with this setup and have the flexibilty to run the negative edge pit at high speed for a nice sheet effect for guests. When running at low speed, the pump only uses about 300 watts per hour so the 4 hours per day is not a big waste of energy.

Running the wall 18 hours per day as required if I only had one pump, would probably increase chlorine demand as poolguy mentioned. This would require us to run the salt cell at a higher percentage which would decrease its life.

We're happy with our setup and have not had any problems with keeping the pit water clear and clean.

Hope this helps.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Thank you so much for your post trhought! It is very helpful to hear from a similar set up. How long is your negative edge? Are you up to sending some pictures? (that almost sounds nasty =] )

Another question for the pro's. I was told today that having the three 3" suction lines stubbed out in the trough bottom all in the same 3" line will not allow enough suction to create the 1/4" of lift to run the weir wall. How do I do the calc to figure the lift?

As always, thanks a million everybody!

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

bobvillas....our negative edge is a 16 foot arc...below is a link to pictures of our pool.

We actually have 4 pumps total: one for water features, one for the slide, one for the edge which also supplies water to the waterfalls and the main circulation pump. The circulation pump is the only one with a filter and salt cell for chlorination and filtration needs of the pool/pit.

The negative edge is sloped towards the pit which helps signficantly with the sheeting effect. The 2 speed pump is a 2HP / .33HP variety. It produceds a nice sheet at high speed and a trickle at low speed.

3" suction to the pump sounds like enough to handle the flow needed for the weir wall. The major pump OEM's suggest 3" suction for their larger pumps up to 3HP. 4" would have been better for efficiency but 3" should do the trick.

Also, you mentioned a lot of rain where the pool is located. We also get a lot of rain here and I would suggest having an overflow pipe installed in the pit if it does not already have one. The manual pump out method poolguynj suggests is good, but an overflow pipe will allow the water to escape through a directed path when it rains heavy (sometimes we get 2-3" per hour). Without a drain pipe the rainwater will run over the edge of the pit in an uncontrolled manner causing erosion of landscaping/soil in unwanted areas.

You can see the overflow pipe in the 5th and 6th pictures. Since these pics were taken a few years ago, I have ran 4" corrugated black pipe from this overflow pipe down the hill about 50 feet. You'll also notice the chlorine floater which we used when the plaster was still brand new. With the salt cell, we clearly don't use the floater anymore.

Lastly, we do not have a skimmer in our pit, but rather scoop leaves/debris out with a leaf net (a 5 minute job when needed). I've never regretted the ommision of a skimmer in the pit...it would just be one more basket to have to clean and potentially starve the pump of water if not cleaned.

Hope this helps.

Here is a link that might be useful: Our Pool with 16' Negative Edge


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

bob,
my infinity edge is a 12 foot arc. The basin is 3 feet deep by 3 feet wide by the full 12 foot length of the edge. I have a typical float type auto fill that is also connected to an overflow line... you want this.
My basin has its own 3 hp pump. Single speed. No skimmer. I am going to put one of those in line strainers back at the pool pad to catch any of the stuff that does come through, but other than that, I scoop the big stuff out. I pretty much use the edge as a giant skimmer twice a day, or when we are using the pool. I would not want it tied to my filtering pump, as it runs almost 24 hours a day at very low speed.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Keep the pool owners posts coming! It is nice to here about what people are running and how it works for them. Anyone have 40' or so edge out there?

The overflow for the pit is definitely going to be installed. The guy building the pool (I can't offend the pros and call him "pool builder") didn't have any overflow installed. We have times of serious rain here. That thing would overflow for sure.

ncrealestateguy, is your auto-fill in the trough?

Do either of you have skimmers in the trough like we do?

does anyone have a negative edge that cants into the pool instead of down into the trough? Just curious to see that effect.

Thank you all,

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Hi Bobby...no skimmer in our trough. The leaf net works fine. I don't regret the omission of a skimmer..it would just be one more basket to keep clean and potentially starve the pump of water if not emptied.

We also have an autofill in the pit...the electronic variety...a Levelor/Jandy system. This system senses water level thru a stand pipe that is connected to the pit through a normal return fitting that was installed on the side wall of the pit. When low water level is sensed it opens a solenoid valve (irrigation variety) at the equipment pad and injects water into the return line going back to the pool.

Hope this helps.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Bob,
I have seen the edge canted both ways... I don't know if or why one is better than the other. No skimmer, I am going to put one of those in line cartridge filters in front of the pump to catch the big stuff. If your pit is pretty much another pool (wading, then I would think of adding the skimmer.
My auto fill is located on the outside of the trough, buried to trough level. It pokes through the inside of the trough where the water return is. It is just a tube with a float valve. It also incorporates an overflow hole, which you can run pvc off of, to where you want. The trick is to place the auto fill at the right level... too low and water is turned on when you really don't need it, and placed too high, it will not come on at all. There is room for adjustment by adjusting the float, however.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Bob,
I have a 30' neg edge for my own pool, and I am a builder.
Fill line is always in the trough, unless you have an electronic fill device that monitors the trough level.
I have seem many edge pools with fill lines at the pool level. The problem is if it is windy, the wind will keep blowing water into the trough, and pool will keep trying to fill itself, so you can see how you can lose a lot of water doing it that way.
Skimmer, though a nice idea just wont work, and shows this guy never built a edge pool before. The only way it would work is if you had a surge tank as well, then you could control the level in the trough.

For a wet stone face we normally slant towards the pool.
Here are a couple of examples.
Photobucket

Photobucket
Photobucket
Photobucket

Having stone on top will make the job of leveling a little more tough. Just a bunch of grinding once you get water in it, but you can get it right.
If you look closely we set a bullnose tile first to get our level perfect, then stone over it so you only see the tip at the top.
This gives us a perfect edge every time.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

just-a-pb,
Would you be so kind as to give your opinion on what pump configuration I should use on my project? How large should we go for the weir pump, etc. I would really appreciate your input. Beautiful work BTW!

I am also starting to think that if the pool isn't heated, it won't get used. Maybe two heaters is the best idea?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I did not read all of these posts.

I am sure electricity and gas are not cheap in Hawaii so you would want to create the most energy efficent pool you can.
You could do the whole thing with two Intelliflo VS pumps.
One can handle the wier, and the other with 3 electric valves can handle the pool, spa, and jets.
If you are planning on running the wier wall alot then I would put a filter on that pump as well, and cut down the filtering time on the other pump.
Your weather is perfect for a heatpump. I would have a heatpump, and a gas heater. The heatpump will handle keeping the pool warm, and when you want that fast spa heatup the gas will take over.

The idea of a variable speed pump for the wier is perfect, because you can dial it in. If the wier is properly leveled it takes very little water to wet the wall, and when you are swimming it can be sped up to handle the surge of the swimmers, and the waves that go over.
I didnt notice if you had any other waterfeatures, but the edge return can also be used for a waterfeature as well.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

What color is your plaster? I love the color of your water.
Your pool is gorgeous by the way!
Srbami


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Thats three different pools, but they all have Aqua blue pebble sheen.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Just-a-pb,

How large of a heat pump would we need for a 30,000 gallon pool? With all that water in transit over the weir, will it be tough to heat the pool anyways?

Would you see an advantage to running three pumps? One on the spa? I was thinking that way we can run the spa (heated w/ gas) the pool (heated w/ heat pump) and the weir on it's own dedicated pump (no heat).

You have no idea how much I appreciate you taking time to help!

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Thanks, I am sorry they are all three beautiful.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Another quick question. If we use a single speed pump on a spa, do you just get ONE power setting for the jets?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Single speed is single speed. The only adjustment would be to restrict the flow with a valve, placing added strain on the motor, shortening it's life and raising the energy consumption.

If the automation system is an EasyTouch with 2.060 or higher code or IntelliTouch with 1.130 code or higher, an IS-10 or the new Spa Command spa side controls will allow On The Fly adjusting of an Intelliflow pump speed/flow.

IMHO, a 3 pump setup is overkill. The spa won't be run long enough for the pool to have any chem or filtering issues.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Thank you Scott. I was noticing that the original guy helping with the pool had a fixed 3 HP on the spa and a spa side controller on his equipment list. I couldn't figure out what we would be controlling besides on and off maybe? So spa side controller with variable speed pump sounds great.

The only reason I was considering a dedicated pump for the spa, was in case the spa is in-use (heated) and the pool is in use (not heated) how do we run the pool system cold and the spa system hot at the same time on one pump? I was thinking that if the adults are in the spa jetting it up and the kids are playing in the pool, we wouldn't want the colder pool water coming in the spa and going over the spillway. I'm sure I'm missing something, but I want to try and work out all possibilities before we wright the check.

Thank you all for your patience with me and your continued help,

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

As I recall, you said the spa was raised, no?

Even if it's at pool level, very little water from the pool will get in the spa and the gas fired heater will take care of that in no time.

It has been my experience that the spa will rarely be on more than a couple hours at a clip and that these longer runs are usually at night. The pool's circulation system doesn't usually need to run at night unless there is a heavy bather load. If this is expected on a regular basis, then a filter on the weir pump is an even better idea.

Adding a 1/2 gallon of Clorox in the basin will add an extra boost of chlorine to the pool to deal with the bather load and last several hours. When the party is over, a couple more gallons in the basin 15 minutes before shutting off the edge pump will give the pool a final boost to oxide any body waste and sanitizes the water. The next day, the automation will take over again and the pool will be ready for more memory making good times.

As I said before, a fixed 3 HP for the spa will be too much pump for the number of jets you have. The use of the variable speed pumps just-a-pb and I suggested will allow you to filter the pool slowly, saving energy, run the weir with a variety of flows, and enable the spa to run slow for soak or fast for a more massaging hydro-therapy session or anything in between.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Scott,
I don't think I'm asking my question properly. The spa is raised and has a spillway into the pool. If the pool and spa pump sucks water from the trough and returns (heated) to the spa and (cold) to the pool, I can see how heated water is sent to the spa through the floor return, but isn't the heated water just going to go over the spillway? How will the spa ever get to 100+ degrees if it is cycling from trough->heater->spa floor->spillway (into cold pool again)?

Sorry for being such a noob..

Thanks again,

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

You wont have the negative edge return water to the spa. The pool/spa filter pump will do that for the overflow, so while it's in spa mode, it won't overflow the spa, but once put back into pool mode it will overflow the spa again.

The pool will be off while using the spa. You won't (especially in hawaii)lose that much heat while people are using the spa.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

We have a return in the bottom (floor) of the spa that heated water can come in but how does it get back to heater/filter if the spa spillway is off? The four suction and eight return (jets) in the spa will be on a jet pump but how does heated water circulate in spa mode?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The floor return in the spa should be connected to the pool return line, i.e. it's just another pool return. When in spa mode, the floor should be off.


Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Correct, that line will be deal while in pool mode. Just make sure to put a check valve on the floor return line prior to teeing it into the pool return. I'd also put valves on both of them.

Another option would be to add another operator valve, set it up on the pool return line so that it's actuated by a "spa waterfall mode" You would still need the check valve, but this would allow you to turn it on and off.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The homeowner needs to send us tickets so we can do this pool up right! heheh.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

so then the heater must be connected to the spa pump only? Or can one larger heater be set to go to the spa and the pool if wanted?

scott, if you are interested in coming out to do the equipment installation, let me know. There is a guest house here on the property and maybe we can work something out.

What is the best filter type? Would you guys recommend DE, Cartridge or Sand. With the large weir and with everyone warning of the importance of filtering, I was thinking DE.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Put the heater after the main filter. Then it can heat either the pool or the spa.

Best is a relative term. For residential pools, in terms of finest filtering, DE wins. In terms of maintenance, cartridge usually wins but not always. In a heavy debris environment, sand will be easier to deal with.

All three have periodic maintenance needs. I like to look at the situation from, as they say, from 5000 feet up, so I can evaluate and make the suggestions that fit the customer's needs versus cost effectiveness, especially when considering the automation side of things.

In order to do that, there are a number of questions that still need to be answered.

1) Who is taking care of the basics such as testing and balancing the pool's chemistry or cleaning the filter, basin, etc.... This is especially important for the pool's 1st few months of operation. Some of this can be automated.

2) How does the homeowner want to control the pool? There are ways from wired control panels to I-Phone/Pad to PCs and several in between options. Remote control is even possible. Lets say the homeowner is in LA and the wife at home calls and asks how to turn on the weir or lower the temp of the spa, he can do it remotely with an I-Phone, depending on his ability to understand "geeky" things.

3) What are the anticipated usage patterns?

4) What brand of light niches were installed and how many in each section, the pool, spa and basin?

5) Will any landscape or deck lights be controlled by the automation

In terms of the equipment pad from what has been discussed so far, my suggested gear:

Pumps: 2 Pentair VS-3050 Variable Speed pumps or if local construction codes require an approved SVRS system, then VS-SVRS pumps.

Filters: 2 Pentair Quad 100 DE filters directly plumbed (needs kit for this) or 2 Sta-Rite (Sta-Rite is to Pentair as Chevy is to GM) System 3 500 Square Foot Cartridge filters. While seemingly large, they will extend periodic maintenance intervals. The Quad DE is the easier of the two to work on.

Heater: Pentair MasterTemp 400 if the gas supply will allow the larger size. The amount of gas used to heat is the same. The increased size just does it faster so the "On Time" the heater is firing a shorter period of time.

Salt Cell: Intellichlor IC-60. This is slightly larger but will last longer due to it's lower "on time" cycles. Don't forget the floater for the catch basin.

Spa Side Control: Either the Pentair IS-10 or Spa Command (New product that will be replacing the IS-10).

All valves should be Jandy Never-Lubes and check valves. All unions should be Hayward. I know Racket like another brand but their spelling eludes me. They are also a very good unit. No ball valves! They don't last and aren't serviceable.

Spa Blower: Silencer 1.5 HP. AFAIK, Pentair doesn't make a blower and I have never had a problem with Silencers.

Automation Control: Either the Pentair EasyTouch with a wireless full function remote if he doesn't plan on using and I-Pad/Phone or PC or if he does, then an Intellitouch, which also allows internet access, video surveillance cameras(up to 4), etc... We need additional feed back.

I just asked Pentair if IntelliChem will control the output of an IntelliChlor. This will help ensure pH and chlorine levels are where they should be. Being a newly announced product, there isn't much yet in available documentation. I will update later when they answer.

Bringing me out to do the work? That would be expensive. Not that this pool guy from NJ has a lot to do right now. It's snowing at the moment. I might be able to convince my wife to let me. Feel free to email me. Clicking on my user name will take you to my page with an email link.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I'd be willing to fly down there. There is a non-stop from SEA-LIH that's pretty reasonable.

E-mail me if you are interested we can probably work something out. I think I might be doing some work in Waikoloa, in feb but other than that my travel schedule is open.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

do you guys agree that a salt system is the way to go for us over here? The owner likes the feel of salt and is aware that it still uses chlorine. I was looking at some of the Ionization and Oxidation "chlorine free" methods. Not sure if it's worth mentioning to them yet. Thought I would run it by you guys first.

Being on Kauai leaves us a very limited selection of Pool Builders. It is nice of you to consider coming over and helping us out. I will discuss timing with the owners and get back to you.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

"Ionizers" and "Oxidizers" don't cut it in my book. Most add metals such as copper and silver, neither of which have particularly fast kill times, often slower than the reproduction rates of many bio-badies, may only work when the pool is on and on the water is passing through the unit, not in the pool. I encourage my customers to cut them out the their systems.

Baquacil and it's clones has it's share of issues such as costs, testing, and gunk formation. Conversion to chlorine, is a big PITA that, once people have had enough of the issues it presents.

Salt systems can be one of the most cost effective ways to add chlorine for sanitation against bio-baddies and for oxidizing organic wastes. The next best is the use of liquid chlorine that is typically 10 to 12% or Clorox, which is 6%. Both of these liquids are manufactured using cells, just on a different scale. Neither add anything extra that will create major headaches though the use of liquid will eventually cause the salt level to rise to the point of being able to taste it in the water.

Tri-Chlor tabs and di-chlor powder add stabilizer to the water. While some is needed, it doesn't go away except via dilution. This leads to a continuous build up that, simply put, will lock up the chlorine, preventing it from doing it's tasks.

Calcium Hypochlorite powder adds calcium. This also builds up in a similar fashion to stabilizer. The only way to be rid of it is via dilution. Too much in the water and scale will form. On this pool, it would show on the weir wall as an off-white, rock hard deposit that would require washing with muriatic acid to remove. That's not to say that calcium is wanted because it is not hard to have too much.

A great resource I like to point homeowners to for maintaining pools is www.troublefreepools.com so that they can understand what the pool needs and why. The pool school there and the forums, as far as maintaining a pool are as good as this forum is for construction. My only affiliation with the site is that I voluntarily participate there, just as I do here.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

We will study that site. Thanks Scott!

I am still trying to wrap my head around how the heated water travels to and from the spa. Will heated water go through the 8 jets and 4 suctions in spa? Because I'm picturing the floor return (in the spa) being off during spa mode. Thanks for putting up with me =)

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

First I am curious, are the four suctions tied to just one 3" pipe?

What he is saying is that an electric will switch from pool suction to spa suction, and another electric valve will switch from pool return to spa return. With a VS pump you dont need the pump running very fast to make the heater come on. So the single return will work to heat the spa. When you want to use the jets, then hit a button on the controls and another electric valve will switch off the return valve, and switch on the 8 therepy jets, and ramp up the speed. The heat will continue through those.

Again this is assuming you are using a VS pump, and controls.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The drains are typically tied in pairs. Since there are two pairs in the spa, one of the pairs may be spare. I can see no reason for the original PB to have had a dual pump design for this spa other than ignorance. That being said, I can see no reason not to tie both sets of drains in the spa together at the equipment pad.

As I suggested in an earlier post, with the heater plumbed in right after the heater, when the system is in spa mode, the "pool return in the spa (the one in the floor) is shut by the same valve that controls whether return water is directed to the pool or spa and the spa's wall jets are fed. Another valve will control when water is taken from the spa drains.

When the valves, both intake and return are in spa mode, water comes in from the spa and returns to the spa. The heater is in between.

When in Pool mode, water is drawn from the pool drains and sent to the pool return line which feeds the inlets in the pool and the floor of the spa.

As racket mentioned earlier, a third option is also available. If the return valve opens to the spa, additional water may be sent to the spa for a stronger spillover effect than some like to see.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

It does appear that the four spa suctions go into one 3" pipe at the pad. There are two 2" pipes that are labeled "pool or spa drain". Not sure what he had in mind for those. I am going to run some water in those and see if I can find out what he had intended or, at least, where they go. Can I just make a 2" cap with a hose bib attached and fill them that way? I will uncap everything, of course.

In the spa picture you will see that the original builder only has one 1" pipe stubbed up at the spa coping. I assume that is for air for the jets? Is that enough for eight jets?

Thank you for the clarification on the heating of the spa. Just couldn't get my head around how the valving works. Sounds like heat goes just after the filter, and then valving takes it wherever we want after that.

Any problem running the Pentair Master Temp 400 on propane? We don't have natural gas here. Do they have to have a special orifice installed or do we just tell Pentair that it is propane when we order?

Thanks all,

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

A shop vac in blower mode might be easier for ID'ing the lines. A little duct tape can seal the hose to the pipe.

You can order the heater for propane. If supply issues make it easier, there is a Nat. Gas to Propane conversion kit that is relatively easy to install.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Nobody stock propane heaters here, we just buy the conversion orifice.

"In the spa picture you will see that the original builder only has one 1" pipe stubbed up at the spa coping. I assume that is for air for the jets? Is that enough for eight jets? "

This could also be a provision for a spa side control. Check it out by blowing air through it with a shop vac.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

It does just come out at the pad. So how do the jets get air if there are no air intakes?

Thanks for the shop vac tip, btw.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

In the diagram, the line on the right is unlabeled. My guess is that is it. Tape off all the jets, hook the shop vac blower up to that line. It should strain. Pull the tape off a jet, the straining of the motor should ease.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Well assuming they actually put the proper venturi tees in, we can do a couple of things. Tape off the jets blow through the known spa jet line and see if air comes out anywhere else. It may go back to the eq room, up through the deck somewhere or into an air inlet pipe in the garden area.

So I can avoid reading the many posts did you determine what kind of jets were used?

Since the 1" pipe goes to the slab, that would be for a spa-side remote (Pentair is4, is10, or the soon to be released spa command).


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Found this further up racket.

Scott

* Posted by bobvilas (My Page) on
Wed, Dec 8, 10 at 22:55

Thank you for the clarification Scott. That sounds like the best option. I guess where I am still confused is that they didn't intend on heating the pool, just the spa. I found out that he used Waterways Venturi Tee's in the eight 1 1/2" jets. What size pump would be optimal and can eight jets and the pool return run off the one pump? Also, what type of eyeballs do you recommend for the Venturi Tee Jet Body?

The pool is on Kauai racket. Wish I would have known you were here! =)

You guys are awesome! Thanks so much again,

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Thnx Scott.

If you tape, or cap off all the jets inside the spa, and blow air with a shop vac through the known spa jet line air should blow out of wherever they had picked for the jets to intake air.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Thnx Scott.

If you tape, or cap off all the jets inside the spa, and blow air with a shop vac through the known spa jet line air should blow out of wherever they had picked for the jets to intake air.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

thanks guys,

We are currently having some big storms but as soon as it blows over I will get out there and check all the piping. I'll post my findings as soon as I have them.

Do you guys have any suggestions on where to order all the equipment? I have tried to contact a couple of places on Oahu but nobody has gotten back to me. Would anyone here be interested in putting a package together for me?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Bob,

Email me contact information by clicking on my Posted By name or the My Page link.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I ditto that.
You might get away with one pallet, so shipping wouldnt be too bad. Could ship from Cal.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Already working on getting figures to do just that.

Is there one or two light niches in the pool?

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Looking like two pallets. The filter, pumps, heater, and automation are all bulky and somewhat heavy items. To lump it all onto one pallet may risk significant damages that nobody wants.

Bobby, still waiting ;-).

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

There are 2 niches in the pool and 1 in the spa.

I will get the niche manufacturers name (if possible) when I am at the pool site Friday. I will also get a panoramic photo of the entire pool site so that you can see the surrounding area, as mentioned earlier in the thread.

I am speaking with the owners Friday about there wishes and wants for controlling lighting around the pool and about the possibilities of controlling pool remotely (by iphone).

Your the best,

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

i-Phone or PC, same gear.

Do you want to filter the weir water too (Strongly recommended but not an Must Do).

Digital video posted to You Tube might be easier.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

You can get everything you need onto 1 pallet.

It's really not that much equipment.
E-mail me as well, I can ship via Matson.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I went by the pool site Friday and tested all the lines with a vacuum (blower). I have modified the plumbing drawing to show my findings. The only real change versus what the original PB had draw out is that there are not four suctions at the ankle hight in the spa. There are two 3" suctions and two 2" returns for heated water (I assume).

When I put a blower on the 3" spa jet line, not very much pressure came out. I did see the venturi in the jet pipes but still never found any air lines around the pool area. Can air be pumped in through the 3" jet line from the pump house?

The 1" line that is stubbed at the spa coping is just an electrical conduit that runs for the spa side controller I guess.

As always, thanks!


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii (niches)

Oh, and the Niches for the lights are:

two - Pentair No. AA-308019 in pool
one - Pentair No. Z-250265

The pool niches are marked "fresh water only". The PB was told that they wanted a salt pool. Does that make a difference?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii (heat pump)

Do to the location of the pool house, the owner would like to use no gas for heating the pool and spa. We would like a recommend on a heat pump that would work for the system.

Any advise?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Before determining whether or not a heat pump should be used for the spa, what do you typically pay for a gallon of propane vs. a KWH for power?

Solar is incredible these days, and can heat a spa, but just not at night.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The niches are fine. When they say Fresh Water, the mean no sea water, which has a salinty of about 10x what the salt cell will require.

The two lines in the spa are intended as pool returns. When the pool is in filter mode, freshly chlorinated water will be sent there. As the spa fills, the spill way will dump into the pool. When in Spa mode, those returns will be shut and the spa jets and suction take over.

With a heat pump, under ideal conditions, you could expect to get a spa from 80 to 100 degrees (give or take a couple) in about 15 minutes.

Ideal conditions are 80 degrees air and 80% relative humidity.

As temps and or humidity decrease, so does the heat pump's efficiency.

If it is 65 outside, expect that the warm up time will take at least twice what it took at 80.

I wouldn't expect the heat pump to work very well heating the pool. The negative edge will release a lot of the BTUs to the atmosphere that the pump injects. A heat pump really needs a solar cover on a pool to prevent evaporative losses from exceeding whats being added.

A heat pump needs a 50 amp/240VAC circuit. This can mean an electrical service upgrade is required, another expensive expense. It must be outdoors, exposed to the atmosphere. In an enclosed space, it would suck all the usable heat out and drip a significant amount of condensate.

The tanks for the propane don't need to be near the pump area. That would only require running the line from the tanks to the heater. The tanks typically be to be within 125' of where the delivery truck can get in. My tanks have ivy on them so they blend into my yard. I cut it back regularly. I have had customers that painted them green too.

If the pump room is fully enclosed, the exhaust can be vented out fairly easily. As long as there is sufficient venting for supply air and the heater is set on an elevated and non combustible platform.

Solar heat for the pool needs a fairly large roof with a southern exposure for an extended period of the day. As with the heat pump, the weir wall will cause losses that would be difficult to make up when it's running. Cloudy days also hamper it's effectiveness. The pump will need a little extra current to make up for the head loss that solar systems create. It can be added later.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

It sounds like they can't use just a heat pump alone. Is it possible to get a large enough one where they could? We can pour a pad for it outside the pump room and pipe it in. This sounded very important to them, when I mentioned needing both. Not sure how gas became such a "bad idea" to them.

They are not interested in solar for the pool only. They are currently having a photo-voltaic system installed to run the entire property. The pool will tie into that eventually (is their plan).

Anyone have recommends on what style of drains, return ends and suction ends I should be getting for the spa and pool? The MIA PB didn't have anything on the job site and I don't see any in his parts list. I need to have them to finish tiling the spa I'm sure the plaster guys will want them on site, also.

Do jets and returns all have to be recessed in the spa. The PB didn't cut away the gunite around spa return/suction pipes and only the caps are protruding on a couple of them. I usually hydraulic cement around the pipe and tile a depression around them. Not sure I have the room here unless I cut out around the pipes.

Man, this thread is long! You guys are amazing!

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

125K is as big as they come, AFAIK. After that, you would need to daisy chain them. That's a lot current. The Solar array would have to be HUGE for a residential system, 30 KW at least, to run the pumps and the heat exchangers, house...
not to mention the $$s it would cost.

What drain pots are in the gunite? I didn't see them in the pics. If there are none, the gunite guys should have field formed them. If they didn't, then they will need to be jacked/chipped into the gunite, 2.5X the pipe diameter deep. Not fun. Squares are the easiest shape to get clean edges. Gunite is porous so they would need to be plastered to prevent seepage. I don't know if simply setting the mounting ring for the cover in the fresh plaster will provide enough hold and may need to be anchored so pressure from people's feet and legs hitting the cover doesn't knock one loose in a few years time.

If the pool and spa returns are 2" unthreaded pipe, cutting them flush or with a 1/2" stub is acceptable. 1-1/2" pipe can get insert fittings with eyeballs. Threaded pipes can get threaded return fittings.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Aquacal makes a 500,000BTU model now. It's really not that expensive for a utility to supply a 200amp dedicated service for a pool heater. Most pools here in the 60's had 200Amp services just for the pool heaters (54 KW)

It's not always 2.5X the pipe diameter for sumps. Many grates these days are zero sump (paramount sdx), and 3" sump like aquastar.

We typically dont recess the jets into the spa. We cut them flush with the tile line in plaster spas, and finish up to them. In tile spas, we tile up to the pipes and cut them flush. Once flush we install an eyeball in the return line. You dont need to hydraulic cement them if you are plastering them.

There are alot of really cool solar product, outside of what our industry typically uses. I just finished a project where caleffi panels were used, and on a 20 degree day they were putting out water that was 180degrees, about 60,000 btu's worth of energy.

This system I imagine was very expensive with all of the gadgetry involved. Heating water directly, or through exchange is a much better option, than heating it with electricity generated from panels.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

what goes in the 3" suction lines in the spa? Just a grate cover? I didn't see anything on Pentair's site about 3".

I will check out the Aquacal unit. I will check with the electrician to see what he is planning for service(if anything).

Thanks for the info


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I would cover the 3" pipe with a paramount SDX grate.

You can see them here http://www.1paramount.com/products/sdx/


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I looked that sdx up yesterday and I like the colors that are available. couldn't find an installation PDF or anything on it. Will it install in non threaded pipe? For that matter, I was looking at some of their return fittings and they say for "threaded" 1 1/2" returns. Ours are just strait pipe. Do I have to order some type of threaded adapters for all these? It would be cool to be able get them all in the same color since the pool will be beige bottom.

I looked up Aquacal and didn't see a 500,000 btu listed on their site. It did look like all I would have to do is poor a 36" x 36" pad outside the pump house and then drill 2 holes for water and one for power to get to it? The owner is definitely stuck on using a heat pump only. Hope we can make that work for them.

Thanks

Bobby


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

If he want to heat the pool, he'll need a dual heat pump system. A single trying to heat the pool will likely be a waste of electricity, especially if he runs the negative edge. Heating the spa is doable but it will take longer, especially on cooler nights.

WRT to the SDX and MDX drain covers, the pipe needs some space between it and the drain cover. While the shape is more of a dome, without the space, aka a sump, I mentioned before, vortexing water, at higher flow rates will occur.

Spinning (vortexing) water can capture long hair and tangle it. If the hair is attached to one's head, you're stuck under water. Kinda hard to breath.

Removing some of the gunite to form a pot (or sump) allows the suction area to spread over a larger area, reducing the velocity of water being drawn in and allowing the fins of the drain to overcome the vortexing on the pool side of the drain cover.

The drain cover ring that holds the cover in place should be attached to the gunite The cover attaches to the ring. The plasterer will need to cover the screw holes and plaster the exposed gunite sump to make it watertight.

The pipe is cut in the sump so there is space between the it's opening and the cover. The more space, the better but I would not expect the floor in the basin to be very thick.

If the floor isn't thick enough to allow a sump to be carved, then a full hole will be needed and either a field formed sump or a PVC sump gets cemented in place. The same holds true for the pool drains.

In this application, the SDX will be needed. The MDX version would have to have it's sump set at the time the pool was shot.

The pad for the heat pump needs to be at least 2 feet from a wall, more if available, open for at least 3 feet on the other three sides for fresh air to be drawn in, and no overhangs 5 feet from the top of the unit, and the pad to be pitched away from the structure so condensate runs away. This is true for most heat pumps, all residential pool applications, AFAIK. Basically, it's a reverse cycle air conditioner running in reverse and heating water, not air.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

In Seattle we can heat a negative edge pool that is a similar size without a single 125,000 BTU heater. In Hawaii because or the air temperatures, and humidity it will work even better. I really doubt that you would need to heat the pool that much anyways.

Aquacal's 500,000 BTU unit is hitting the market soon. It's footprint is 4'X8'X8' The only reason you will need a heat pump that big, is to heat the spa up quickly. I have a few on order, I think $15,000 is about a fair street price for them.

As far as paramount's sdx grate as long as the pipe sits in the center hole, it has been tested for hair entanglement; at the specified flow rate when installed in this fashion. No sump is required per manufacturer specifications.

I would recommend cutting the pipe back 1" from the face of the gunite, but it's really not needed for a per manufacturer installation.

I'd look at the waterway # 550-9237 (gray) or 550-9239-DKG dark gray, or 550-9231 black eyeballs to go inside of the raw 1 1/2" pipe.

You just have the 1 1/2" pipe finish flush with the plaster, and pound them in.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I see the Waterway 550 eyeballs. Those look perfect for the wall returns. The SDX looks like it needs a threaded plate to attach to. Where do I get those, as I would need them for all the 3" suctions in the trough and spa, also.

Racket will the 125,000 btu heat pump be sufficient for heating our spa? I get what you are saying about the pool. We only have a 10 degree temp variation all year.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Bob, it will, but might take a few hours. The disadvantage of the heat pump, is that is works efficiently, but slow.

The non-retro version of the SDX does comes with a frame that gets plastered or tiled in. Then you attach the grate to that frame. No other fittings are required.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I will let them know about the heat pump.

Any ideas for the fittings for the 2" returns in the spa. I got your recommend for the eyeballs but they only are 1 1/2"?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

As I count it in the spa, and please correct me if I am wrong, I see eight inch and half spa jets, two 3" pool returns in the spa(labeled heated return), two 3" side suction lines and a 2" floor suction.

The 2" and 3" lines Can be covered with SDX covers. They will either be suction lines or return inlets when the pool is in filtering mode or heavy spillover mode.

I'm not big on the idea of the suction lines not being recessed some. Since there were no drain pots field formed or set when the pool was rough plumbed. The suction lines, IMHO, should have at least a 5" diameter x 2.5" deep depression and the pipe be cut flush. This increases the area of suction the cover will be covering, slowing the water velocity at the points of suction.

It's just safer, especially in a spa where long hair can be drawn in. SDX covers are great but it's safer and not hard to do. I use them for replacements.

As for the mounting ring, I would like to see them epoxied to the gunite. 10 years from now, the plaster will be redone. This can loosen the ring that holds that cover that protects the people....

I would also cover any 2" returns in the pool. God forbid a kid sticks their arm in and gets wedged.

A 500KBTU heat pump is going to draw a LOT of current. I guestimate 25KW (100 amps at 240) when it's running and somewhat more at startups of the compressor. I know racket asked this before but I didn't see a reply, How much is electricity per kilowatt hour there? An electrical service upgrade? And propane?

Helping the homeowner get what he asks for may be ok for some people, but helping the homeowner understand what the potential ramifications for each choice so he makes an informed decision is more important to me, especially if he might become a customer. Customers are expensive to acquire.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

check out the 215-989* range from waterway it glues inside a 2" pipe and allows you to use a male eyeball. It will take any 1 1/2" threaded eyeball


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

there are actually two 3" suctions, two 2" hot water returns, eight 1 1/2" jets and one 2" drain in the spa.

I saw the 215-9890 racket. Weird how I have to get this stuff from so many different suppliers. You would think paramount would make it all so I could get it in matching colors. Man I'm gonna have to get 11 of those SDX's if I put them on all suctions and all 3" returns!

Pretty sure I have the owner convinced that we need to use gas heat. Now I just need them to decide weather or not we want a heat pump also.

Thanks guys


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

All suctions will need and must have VGB compliant grates such as the SDX, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It's a federal law.

What you are calling a heated return is only relative to how the heat source is plumbed. I would simply plumb them to the pool returns so when the pool is filtering, they are sending freshly filtered and chlorinated water to the spa. When the system is in spa mode, they would be off and the heater would send heated water to the spa via the 8 spa jets.

The 3" returns need to be covered with grates, AFAIK because there are no return fittings that will fit.

The 2" returns can either be grated or have the insider fitting racket pointed out and a threaded return fitting for a finished look and to keep small hands and arms out.

The spa return jets can get the push in style of fittings.

As I recall, you said the pool is getting white plaster, right, so white fittings are appropriate.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I will order up the SDX's and other parts ASAP. Thanks for the input!

We are wanting to get a beige color plaster so that the water will be emerald green. I have attached a photo of the look we are going for. We have a country setting with amazing mountain views so the view over the negative edge is green trees.

We were planning on using Hydrazzo 'Sahara Sand'. That is the material the original PB was wanting to use. If there is a better plaster, we would love to hear your opinions.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

"I saw the 215-9890 racket. Weird how I have to get this stuff from so many different suppliers."

if you only have to go to two of them I call it a success. 10 years ago , none of this stuff was even available.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I am not a big Hydrazzo fan. When new, it certainly is one of the smoothest because of the "Polishing" it undergoes, but as for longevity, it still has quite a bit of marble dust aggregate. Marble is a soft mineral that can stain and erode more quickly than many other pool finishes. Smooth doesn't stay that way.

Better is such a relative term. There are harder finishes that will last longer. Some have a basketball like texture and some have finer textures by using smaller aggregates. Typically, these resist stains, or should they stain, are more tolerant of the removal processes. These products tend to last significantly longer when properly applied.

Some of these finishes have very controlled distribution, some don't. The sky being blue, the sun's angle, and the immediate surroundings have more to do with water color at a given time. At high noon, this pool may be a lot more blue.

I suggest asking the plasterer in your area what he has available, not necessarily what he recommends though if he doesn't like working with certain products, don't push them.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

How about pebble tech? Am i correct in assuming that the beige bottom is how we will get the "greenest" look?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Hydrazzo, and pebbletech are both good products. If you are looking for green water the darker tan colors seem to be the best.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

PebbleTec has a very tight control on it's channel. If there is no authorized dealer, it's not available. There are other high aggregate finishes but I again, strongly suggest finding out what is available through your local plaster companies. Then we can help point you.

I am not a big Hydrazzo fan as I mentioned earlier. I haven't seen it last any longer than a standard plaster, though it is smoother for a while. The same manufacturer has several products with higher quantities of harder (than marble) aggregates, that compete with PebbleTec and offer similar benefits in durability, stain resistance and removal, colors, and textures.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Hey guys,

I was looking through the Waterways installation PDF and it shows either an air pump going to the jets or an open air inlet. We don't seem to have any air pipe going to the jets. What will have to do for air intake?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

When the spa returns were rough plumbed, two plumbing loops should have been made, an upper and a lower. The upper loop is typically the air loop and the lower is the water loop.

Tape off the spa jets except one. Blow air from the shop vac in. Air should come out two lines in the equipment room. If it only comes out one, then it's likely buried. If it comes out two, then one of them is the blower line.

To identify which is which, you will need either a stick with a 1" piece of limp string taped or a long nosed fireplace lighter. Blow air from one of the lines at the pad site toward the spa.

Insert the stick/lighter in the spa jet just past the center nozzle. If using a lighter, be careful not to heat things up and make sure the flame is not a stiff flame like a torch but rather like a Bic lighter. If it lights move the flame in front of the nozzle and see if it blows out. If using the string, it will move in the breeze.

If the air comes out the nozzle, that is the water line. If the air comes from behind the nozzle, that is the air line. Swap the blower to the other line and verify the air comes out the opposite ports.

Using the string is safer but may require a small flashlight to see. If using the lighter, don't keep it lit for long so as to keep from melting anything.

You can also turn the hose on from the pad and pour water in one of the lines. One of the loops, assuming they aren't too high (raised spa), should fill. if it's the water loop, water will come out the center nozzle. If you filled the air loop, water will come out from from behind the nozzle.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I only can find the one 3" line up at the pad that goes to the spa jets. All other pipes are accounted for and tested. When I blow the vac through the spa jet 3" at the pad, I can just barely feel air coming out in the spa jet at the spa (I have all but one capped). I am using a huge shop vac, btw.

I have looked all over the yard for a possible pipe for air inlet. Where would they normally put it (or them) if it's not in the pad?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I hope they didn't tie the air loop to the water loop in the spa or cap it(pre-gunite). Barring that, there must be a 5th line from the spa that is still buried or its possibly one of the 3 lines coming up from behind the retaining wall in this picture:

Have these 3 lines been identified?

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

found the 2" air line buried underground behind the spa. Can it just be open to air? Or does it have to be run to the pad and connected to an air pump?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

If the equipment is on the other side of the deck from where the line is, then just bringing it to a location near the house but not under a window will work. Then you can get power to it. The line needs to be a couple feet above the spill way so you don't start a siphon.

Check valves fail eventually. The check valve for a blower is different from the common Jandy check valves have a pretty strong spring on the flapper that would reduce air flow substantially. The check for the blower will have a much softer spring.

Some jets can draw air naturally when the spa is running as the water flow in the the jet body will generate a little suction on the air line. Would it be enough to clear the air loop? I doubt it or if it were, it wouldn't let enough air in to add to the pressure significantly.

If the air line had been vented directly and vertically, the opening would have come out the coping of the spa and there would not be much water weight to overcome. Many portable tubs and drop in spas are plumbed this way. This also tends to cause a roaring sound to be emitted from the opening.

As it is, there is now a trap being formed that would likely hold more water than the suction can overcome. Remember, the air loop will flood with water every time the spa jets are off, as will the trap.

A blower will clear the line pretty quickly and add pressure to the jets but natural aspiration will be severely restricted to the point of being useless.

The power for the blower can be run from the automation controller through the house.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

If you configure the jets properly you shoudlnt need an air blower to make them work.

Typically air lines get piped through the deck, or goosenecked up in a planter or mech room.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

If the deck is in the path to the equipment room, running the line to the side of the house as I suggested before might work. If it doesn't, since it's by the house, the blower can be added later and the power for it run through the house from the controller.

A standard 90 and a street 90 can make a nice, easy "U" so the opening is not facing the sky where stuff can drop in. Keep it a few feet off the ground to stop wildlife and no less than a foot from the house. When you run the line, get some depth so the ground will hold the line steady.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The owners are wanting the iphone control for the pool. I see the pentair screen logic kit. What controller is the best for out application. Can we get them as a package? They use Mac's, if that matters. I assume the controller works over wifi? We will want to run some pool side lighting eventually also.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The Pentair Intellitouch i-9+3 is what I quoted you for use with Screen Logic and WiFi. It can be expanded to 40 circuits too. No problems having enough controllable circuits for landscape lights.

Apple PCs like Mac-Books and i-Macs are not supported as they run a different operating system than Apple's iOS devices like i-Pads, i-Phones, etc... which do have apps that talk to a Windows PC, available tablet or the available in-wall touch screen with a client-server type relationship.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Which is a better sweep? Sand Shark or the Great White?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

For suction side, The Pool Cleaner gets top ratings from the peeps I respect. I don't sell suction side cleaners.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Does the IC60 maintain pH levels or will we have to regularly add acid to the pool water? A guy was telling me today that he had to install an auto pH controller on his salt pool because the chlorine generator will keep it up around 15 when you want in down around 7.4 or so.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The IC-60 makes chlorine. Will it tend to want to raise the pH? Yes. The new plaster will do it too. You will go through quite a bit of acid as the plaster hydrates. New plaster raises the pH pretty quickly and slows over the course of 6 to 12 months. That process is far faster than what the cell will do when raising the pH.

There are ways to buffer the water. The addition of borates to the water has been shown to be quite effective to keeping the pH reasonably stable after the plaster has finished hydrating. I would expect any pump based system would have a tough time keeping up during the 1st 3 months of a plaster finish's life.

Pentair has announced the IntelliChem system but it isn't released just yet. I will be finding out more about it availability when I go to the NESPA Pool and Spa show in AC this week. It will talk to the Intellitouch. It will be available with either an acid tank with a pump or CO2 injection system. Given that the pad isn't installed yet, I would recommend waiting until the hydration is done and adding it later.

If using Muriatic Acid (MA) is a concern, there is a powdered pH reducer called Dry Acid that will work just fine. There are also buffered versions of MA that don't have the fumes.

Point your client to www.troublefreepools.com for what I consider to be one of the best on line pool schools. Gardenweb is great for construction. TFP is great for care and maintenance. I participate there too, as do several others here.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Bob the pH of the salt generator is 7.8 so if it went to 15, something else was wrong.

Scott, Most peristaltic pumps will do 20-80 gallons of acid a day. There is no problem at all using this system to cure a pool. In fact I prefer it.

I wouldn't use C02 for pH control on new plaster however.

I don't advise on automatic controls for pH, and ORP (oxidizer/chlorine) unless there is someone that is comfortable in their operation monitoring, and servicing it.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I am not a fan of CO2 either buddy. Tanks are heavy and a PITA to get refilled.

He won't need that much acid in a year.

I want to see what the folks at the booth can tell me about the IntelliChem anyway. There is customer demand.

A good test kit is essential and a heck of a lot more cost effective for residential use.

With the Screen Logic and IP enabled, we can peek in as needed.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

"I am not a fan of CO2 either buddy. Tanks are heavy and a PITA to get refilled."

Not really, Co2 is one of the most widely used gases. I know in remote locations Co2 is easier to get than MA. You can use one of those small tanks like restaurants use for soda.

"I want to see what the folks at the booth can tell me about the IntelliChem anyway. There is customer demand."

I understand the demand, but I feel the the whole process of pH/ORP control is still in it's infancy. I feel that it takes a special kind of pool professional with a special kind of homeowner to make chemical automation work.

I certainely have no desire to interface the chemical automation into a control panel where the client can monkey with it, or get freaked out about every little blip or bounce in the readings.

I have installed and serviced hundreds( maybe thousands) of chemical automation systems. Every time I end up with one on a residential level I end up regretting it.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Did I mention that I love you guys?

Thanks for the info. It seems we can add it later if something great comes along or maybe they won't even need it anyway. Just thought I should ask.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

" It seems we can add it later if something great comes along or maybe they won't even need it anyway"

Absolutely.

No problem.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I saw the IntelliChem yesterday and have a number of significant concerns that, at this point, would likely make for exactly the type of situations racket mentioned, problems, go backs, and more.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Hey, I got the energy cost from the owner.

propane = $5.05 per/gal
Electricity = .37 per/kwh

I was looking at some web sites that said $1.19 per gallon is the national average. Wow! Now I see why they don't want propane to heat the pool....

Any way that I can figure a cost comparison heat pump vs. propane?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

To Heat the pool to 85-88 degrees year round it would cost

$3,657.00 a year with electric heat pump
$17,443.00 a year with a propane heater.

I'll e-mail you a copy of the audit.

Obviously a no brainer.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Propane is tied to oil prices and hasn't been less than $3/gallon for a couple years.

Your power is 2-1/2 time more than mine! @$0.37/kwh, that is close to top tier in Southern Cal.

1 BTU is the energy used to heat 1 pound of water 1 degree F
1 Gallon = 8.345404 lbs.

670 gallon spa = 5591.4206 lbs

80 degrees to 100 degrees = 111828.41 BTUs plus what ever loss evaporates from the open surface.

Looks like about an hour to heat the spa with a heat pump vs 15 minutes with a 400K heater.

Expect to burn 1 gallon/hr of on time (figure 15 minutes of continuous and then a 35% roughly on time to maintain). On time means the heater is firing.

Heat Pump will draw about 6-7000 watts/hr continuously and then an aprox. 50% duty cycle to maintain for the spa.

Are there savings? Yes, I guess a couple dollars per hour if it's only for the spa.

Is the homeowner willing to wait for the spa? What's his time worth to him and his guests?

On to the pool? There will be substantial evaporative loss. We can't cover the pool because of the negative edge. The losses would take a substantial percentage of the the heat pump's capacity. At least the propane unit would be able to make more head way.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Scott for the difference in energy consumption with the pool, you can buy and install 3 heap pumps and break even in 15 months.

Propane here runs $1.50 per gallon in massive bulk, and $2.40 per gallon is the homeowner 1,000 gallon tank price.

It doesn't surprise me that A gallon of propane is $5.00 untill costco came to town a gallon of milk was $7-9 down there.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

If he is only heating the spa, the cost per use will not be that big to begin with. With power @ 37 cent per kw/h, thats a lot too.

Like I said, what is his time worth to him?

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

When I spoke to the owners "She" is gonna want to heat the pool. "He" will fill that sucker in with dirt if it cost 17k a year to heat. So I think for now, we get them a heat pump. I will pour them a slab big enough to accomidate a couple of heat pumps and/or a LP heater. Then if/when they decide to add the gas or another heat pump, they will have the ability.

I made it very clear to them that the heat pump will take minimum of an hour to heat the spa. They say they are fine with that. (time will tell if they really are).


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Ok.

Will email you in a few. Got the shipping cost in.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Do you guys have a recommendation on the eyeball hole size for the returns and for the spa? I was thinking like 1" on the pool and 3/4" on the spa?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii SDX

Also, I got the SDX drains and they came as the Retro version. No fitting for the 3" pipes. Just a plate that you use to go over an existing drain. Any ideas where I can get the non-retro ones online?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Darn! Forgot about that stuff.

I can the get the covers and the insider bushings for the 2" pipe returns.

1" eyes everywhere. The idea is to keep little hands out, not to restrict flow.

The mounting screws and anchors for the cover will need to be drilled into the gunite. There is no fitting for the pipe. Flush will have to do, which the covers are approved for. I don't like it but it is what it is.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

So I will mount the plates that came with the SDX to the gunite for the 3" suctions in the spa. I am having trouble finding a 2" gray fitting for the spa hot water returns. I got 1 1/2" fittings for the jets, no problem.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The main different is for the SDX and SDX replacement is the mounting system. The black plate with the replacement is meant to fit over a pre-existing sump. I don't thing the SDX for new pools has it, but rather has a different bag of mounting hardware.

I'll see what I can sniff up for the return fittings.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

I am trying to finish tiling the spa but the two 2" stub outs are set way to far into the gunite. I need to bring them out to accommodate mud and tile thickness. Should I chip out enough for an external coupling or can I use 2" - 1 1/2" reducers? That way I could use a standard 1 1/2" fitting with 1" eyeball, also. Not sure if that is to restricting of a set up?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

On a Return line, that is more than ok to do. It will save you the hassle of getting a different fitting to trim it out.\

BTW I like the Hawaiian Work boots.

=)


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

Jeez, that gunite crew didn't you any favors. Waterway has those insider fittings that racket mentioned. They will glue to the inside of the pipe and give you a female thread for return fittings.

What, in the spa, are you planning to tile?

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The entire spa is going to be glass tile. I have to mud the whole thing and you can see how junk the gunite is. If I reduce it to 1 1/2" can I just us "slip" (push in) fittings?

Take a look at the light niche, too. It's out of square with the seat and I have to float square for the tile. Do I have to finish flush to the gray ring on the niche or will the fixture seal against the tile?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

#1 You can reduce and pop in an eyeball after the finishes are in.

#2 The light sits on that ring, and there is very little lattitude to mud past the niche.

Often times it's the guniters that cause this they should straighten it out during the shoot, or when they go to flash the mud down.

If you want it to be perfect you may have to blow out the niche and straighten it out. You might not have to completely remove the niche once you get the gunite removed around it.

If you want it to be perfect,

Thats a sloppy gunite job, but typically an all tile pool gets a completely different amount of attention at the gunite phase than a pool that is planned for plaster.


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

If the fixture sits "on" the ring, can the tile be flush to the front of the ring? Or does the ring need to stick out past the tile a bit?


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The fixture sits on the lower notched tab and grabs the threaded tab with a screw at the top. The rim of the fixture presses the pool/spa wall when the screw is tightened.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

That sounds typical. I have always tiled right to the front of the niche and have never had a complaint. I will have to dish in to this one to make it work, but sounds like that will be fine. How much bigger (around) is the light fixture than the niche?

Thanks


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

The light fixtures are a 10-1/2" diameter on the pool light and 6" on the spa's. They just barely cover the niche.

Scott


 o
RE: Negative Edge Pool in Hawaii

We have our finishes flush with the rim on the niche like you described.

Dishing it is fine, and looks better underwater than it looks while empty.

The fixture usually goes 1/4" past the niche.


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Pools & Spas Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here