It's about time builders are catching on.

I include myself in this.

Remeber your builder is losing money by not selling you an SWG.

Racket, I am not disagreeing with you, but can you explain how the builder is losing money?

My neighbor told me 6 out of 6 builders told him to definitely get the SWG. I mentioned to him about the natural stone erosion and he said that's a myth. I really didn't want to argue with him, but if he mentions it again, I'd like to be able to respond appropriately. He previously insisted that greenboard was a fine substrate for the showers in his new home which leads me to believe he's not one for doing his own research.

My PB said that they don't use OK Flagstone with the SWG but instead use TN flagstone as it is a "denser" material. Any truth to this?

Our pb is a very well respected local builder with a very good record who currently is installing about 75% of new pools with SWG systems.
however, they did tell us that with OK flagstone coping, that we would have to sign what amounts to a waiver of all warranty on the flagstone due to damage from saltwater.
A&S gave us a bid and said they same thing.
We weren't going to use a SWG system anyway, so it really didn't matter.
I should say that our pb really wasn't recommending against salt due to this, but rather just that alternate materials should be used for coping.

I live in OK and heard about OK flagston and SWG. Is Arizona flagstone better?

i work for a pool company in service, (since 1991) and i love SWGs. I know its a pain, but if you hose down your deck a couple times a week, you should be fine. IF a builder says the water is only 3000'ISH PPM, BS, when the water evaporates, JUST SALT ! 1,000,000 P.P.M.
thats my thoughts.

The builder is losing money because he is not selling you a product.

I understand he's forgoing some profit, but when I read it, I thought there was something else going on there. Not sure why I read so much into it.

I have blue stone coping, will my SWG harm that?

Just fyi for everyone reading this...

An underlying controversy (and perhaps the only negative) regarding SWCG's are the fact that salt is corrosive. We all know that, right?

If you're new to the pool building industry, you're probably expecting too much.

ABSORB THIS: Many, or most, poolbuilders DO NOT spend their spare time perusing the internet looking for the latest news on the latest technology.

ABSORB THIS: They may or may not know that any given situation may exist with any technology.

ABSORB THIS: They may or may not share with you the information they know. This is no different than anything else that you buy... other than the fact the purchase price is often only surpassed by your house.

Now, back to the subject. As you would suspect, materials vary in their tolerance to salt corrosion. Unfortunately, there seems to be no "known" testing of typical pool materials at the salt level that salt pools are operated at.

so what to do? Well, materials and climates vary greatly, pretty much leaving the experience and knowledge in the brain of your local pool builder.. and maybe from fellow poolowners. (search the web for this info!!)

The big concerns are "softer" stones (varying types of flagstone), and metals. The "correct" stainless steel should have no problems. You'll know yours is incorrect when you see it starting to turn brown with rust.

Sealing the stone, if possible seems to be a logical way to help your material resist corrosion.

There's many conversations about this topic on the web. If you have a swcg, you probably want to look into this subject.

(I'm not pro or anti swcg's... just trying to help anyone who cares.)

There is a product I've just found that solves this issue (or says it does) I don't know if I'm allowed to mention brand names?

We're using quite a bit of precast concrete and sandstone, and are installing a SWG. My PB didn't say anything about it etching the material, but I know from my own research I need to protect the stone.

Email me if you'd like the brand name.

Hi - builders not installing SWGs has become, in my opinion, an unfortunate trend, especially here in the Dallas-area. By the way, I have OK Flagstone and a SWG, plus a spa spillover and weeping wall with saltwater running over them 6 hours each day and I see no signs of corrosion or pitting on my pool. My neighbor has had a SWG for 6 years now, also has OK Flagstone, and they haven't seen signs of it either.

Personally, I think there are two classes of potential "damage":

1 - expansive cracking - this depends on how porous your coping, etc. is. If it absorbs the saltwater, as the water dries, the salt expands thousands-fold potentially cracking the stone. I think this threat is real, but it depends on the stone you have. My PB says that they've noticed depending on the sample of the rock, that some are more porous than the others.

2 - corrosion - personally, I think this is bogus and any corrosion is actually caused by chlorine and not salt. Most people forget that what makes salt corrosive is the "Cl" part of the salt molecule (NaCl), "Cl" being chlorine, and that chlorine can be MUCH MORE corrosive than salt if you let your poolwater chemistry get out-of-hand. One typical problem - not having enough stabilizer in your water. We all know that stabilizer is needed to help keep chlorine from getting consumed by the sun. Well, having low or no stabilizer also causes chlorine to be a MUCH stronger oxidizer. For example, chlorine at 3-4 ppm (normal range for most) at low or zero CYA levels becomes 30x stronger an oxidizer!

Based also on what I've read, many people seem to think that having an SWG means they no longer have to watch their water. I've read of many people say their SWG is "great because all they need to do is dump salt in every now and then." What? How about acid to control pH? How about stabilizer levels? The moral? Even when you have an SWG, what your water! I test my chlorine and pH levels every other day, for example.

Alright, enough already. :-) Just my 2 cents.

Vegasmom, I would like to know the name of the company. Couldnt find your e-mail, so mine is tmcginty01@bellsouth.net. I will be putting flagstone in the cool deck for decoration. It is the TN flagstone. Thanks.....Tina

Vegasmom,

Go ahead and post the name. We discuss manufactures all the time.

Tons of plaster mfg posts, pump mfg post, umbrella mfg's, etc, etc.

Tell us about the cure, and your experience. Inquiring minds want to know !!!!

Thanks,
Steve

"corrosion - personally, I think this is bogus and any corrosion is actually caused by chlorine and not salt."

Corrosion is used to describe many things. It is also used improperly, even by me to describe electroysis. When you increase the conductivity of the water, and add a dc power source, how can you not have electroysis?

"Hi - builders not installing SWGs has become, in my opinion, an unfortunate trend, especially here in the Dallas-area"

I am not sure why that's unfortunate. What I find unfortunate is that many people bury their heads in the sand about the negative effect of them, but what is the real benefit to the client? They are not escaping from chlorine, they are just adding it in a different fashion.

"ABSORB THIS: Many, or most, poolbuilders DO NOT spend their spare time perusing the internet looking for the latest news on the latest technology."

I have been installing automatic pool covers for over 12 years now, and have witnessed the desintagration of the components that come in direct contact w/ the water. The leading edges end up so soft that you can push your finger through them, and the castings on the end of the drums end up completely falling apart. I have seen salt systems eat the stainless or aluminium tanks and elements in electric heater in less than 3 years on many facilities.

There is a company that has a stainless steel mechanism, but very few of the parts that are stainless, are the ones that were failing to begin w/.

"ABSORB THIS: Many, or most, poolbuilders DO NOT spend their spare time perusing the internet looking for the latest news on the latest technology. "

Whenever a new product comes out, the marketing people of the MFR makes sure that we know about it. I get ads, and e-mails about every new gizzmo made. Most of them seem to be a solution looking for a problem.

It may actually benefit the client that they don't. 10% of the new products are actually going to make a real difference for the client besides taking money from them (intelliflo products wink wink).

vegasmom, I'd also like to know the name of the product...Please post. One quick question, does the product make the surface look wet/shiny?

The products are by DryTreat, and while I have not sampled them (I intend to as we are pre-gunite and I have some time) they look promising. It's an Australian company that is gaining popularity in the US with their sealers. They're even working with a thermodynamics scientist to develop energy reducing sealers and at the same time promoting the 'whitening' of roads and roofing. (theorizing that dark colors contribute to global warming as well.. maybe as much as carbon emissions)

Getting back to the flagstone/salt issue, they don't make claims that their products offer total protection, but they will certainly help. The site has a great FAQ section (a portion of which helped support my theory of the need to pre-seal..my contractors don't think it's necessary but I'll be darned if I'm spending 15k+ and taking any chances!)

Using an impregnating sealer will most often not change the look of the surface. I have sampled 2 sealers on my precast, however..they did very slightly darken the surface, and one cured a little yellow. DryTreat says their products do not alter the surface or add gloss, but it's always a good idea to test any product.

Tina, I sent you mail :) Here's the link for everyone:

Here is a link that might be useful: DryTreat

Hi Racket - I think it's unfortunate because having a SWG and swimming in a salt pool are wonderful! I think it's a great benefit to have chlorine being generated steadily and being able to maintain a steady chlorine level. Moreoever, at least for me, I have never had any combined chlorine which means I have never needed to shock. On the other hand, I do hate dealing with acid and having to dump some into my water over 5-6 days or so.

I think it's unfortunate that some pool builders are starting to move away from SWG because it keeps potential pool owners from being able to experience this way of chlorinating a pool.

With all due respect, I think it's much too simplistic to say that because one notices a certain type of corrosion or damage only on salt pools that the salt itself is to blame. How can one say that it is NOT because the pool owner was running their pump too long, or setting their chlorinator at too high a level which caused their chlorine level to rise much too high becoming a much more active corrosive agent? (I personally know of people that run their pumps 24 hours a day, for example.)

Here's a personal story. I have my SWG set at 35% which allows me to keep my chlorine level at 5-6ppm. I was away on a trip for about a week. When I came back, I was shocked to find out when I checked my water that my chlorine level was up to 11ppm! Well, up until a couple weeks ago, we had about 3 straight weeks of rainy weather here in the Dallas-area. I concluded that it was the lack of sun exposure that caused my chlorine to creep up that much (not as much chlorine burn off from the sun.) I happen to check my water very regularly. Can you imagine the typical pool owner that doesn't, or just takes their water to Leslie's once a month?

Or how about pool owners that allow their stabilizer levels to get so low that they aren't able to hold a good chlorine residual and they think the solution is to increase their chlorinator setting to compensate, not realizing that the chlorine they're generating has now become 30x more corrosive because of the low CYA level?

I have read stories of salt pools being blamed for corrosion on structures made out of 316L Marine-grade stainless steel. If these stories are true, then salt pools with salt content at 3000ppm is somehow more corrosive than ocean water with salt content 35000ppm? Perhaps. But chlorine at high levels is easily corrosive enough to eat through 316L stainless steel. I'm not ready to blame salt quite yet. Mind you, I'm watching my pool very closely to see if I start to see any ill-effects, but so far, nothing yet.

Having said all of this, I do think that SWG manufacturers need to be more upfront with the true care and maintenance aspects of owning a salt pool. It isn't as "care and maintenance free" as they would like the consumers to think!

This discussion is rather timely, given that I am experiencing problems with corrosion of my automatic pool cover mechanism due to salt.

The particular SWG I've been using (a Watermaid) runs saltier than most (they recommend 6,000 ppm as the ideal salt content, as opposed to most SWGs that run closer to 3,000 to 3,500ppm). At my pool cover guy's suggestion, we lowered the salt content and my builder has agreed to replace the unit with an Intellichlor, but this *is* a problem for automatic covers)

It's certainly something that the builders have not taken into consideration in the past (I built my pool a couple of years ago and no one made the connection until we started having problems with the automatic cover and the pool cover guy did some thinking).

"Moreoever, at least for me, I have never had any combined chlorine which means I have never needed to shock. On the other hand, I do hate dealing with acid and having to dump some into my water over 5-6 days or so. "

Using triclor tablets or granular triclor you will actually add more acid when you switch to a salt system.

" How can one say that it is NOT because the pool owner was running their pump too long, or setting their chlorinator at too high a level which caused their chlorine level to rise much too high becoming a much more active corrosive agent? (I personally know of people that run their pumps 24 hours a day, for example.)"

90% or more of the pools that we build are professionally maintained . In many commercial pools the chlorine level can be as high as 10ppm, and we are not experiencing the type of corrosion in those as we are in pools built w/ salt.

"Can you imagine the typical pool owner that doesn't, or just takes their water to Leslie's once a month? "

Again, in Seattle most people do not maintain their own pools, and the ones that do seem to be on top of things. I can only pull experience from the clients that I work for.

"Or how about pool owners that allow their stabilizer levels to get so low that they aren't able to hold a good chlorine residual and they think the solution is to increase their chlorinator setting to compensate, not realizing that the chlorine they're generating has now become 30x more corrosive because of the low CYA level?:

You may be confusing oxidization w/ corrosion. We build many indoor pools here that run on cal-hypo tablet feeders that have CYA levels of 0 ppm and there is not noticable increase in corrosion.

I really wanted the salt systems to work well for us, but in Seattle with our short swimming season, we tend to be no nonsense. Once something starts to cause problems that are this detrimental to the pool and equipment we will stop selling, even if it mean sacrificing profits.

Racket - which pool cover company is using stainless steel mechanisms?

Am I asking for trouble with an SWG (even with a lower salt content) and an autocover?

Racket...

If you're here reading this, then I'd say you don't fit into "many or most" pool builders. Would you say that MOST pb's spend a lot time keeping up with technology?

Unfortunately, most of the pb's I interviewed knew very little (or hadn't even heard of) Intelliflo, increased pipe size for effiency, or less pump speed for effeciency...and one had never installed a colorlogic light, and he truly digs 5 pools a week!!

and even if they KNOW of the technology, they may or may not offer it to a customer.

This is not an unusual situation for ANY industry... but I think most us enter pool shopping EXPECTING more... only to figure out the truth somewhere between signing the contract and a year later.

You're here, so I can promise you... you're above average when it comes to knowledge of the latest products.

Congrats, and good for your customers!!

Those of you who aren't Racket's customers... don't expect too much... from the average pb.

Stevenbr,

On that Intelliflo pump, I believe the reason many builders don't offer it is twofold:

1. Most builders are branded to a particular mfg, like Totally Hayward, or Jandy, or Pentair. If they sell all Hayward equipment pads, then they can't stick a Pentair Intelliflo in the middle of that equipment pad and give you a 3 year equipment warranty. If the pad doesn't have a certain number of major components from a single mfg, then that mfg drops the warranty down to the standard 1 year warranty for each piece of equipment.

2. In the pool biz, it's not a good idea to be the first builder to try a new product, like the Intelliflo pump. They are expensive and there's no history on how well they perform. If they last for several years in the field without major meltdowns, then it will become a lot more common for builders to offer them. Most likely what will happen will be something more like what's happening with the evolution of entrapment technology. At first, there were Vac Alerts that cost a bundle and were stand-alone add-on's to the equipment. Now AO Smith has an E-Mod motor that does load sensing and shuts down when there's a blockage or entrapment. Some day it'll probably be a standard circuit on all motors. And some day, what Intelliflo is doing with variable horsepower for a boatload of money will be done a lot cheaper by much simpler circuitry.

Same for the LED pool light you're talking about. Take a look at the red light the next time you're sitting in traffic. Notice how groups/clusters of the LED's are failing? That may very well be happening to that type pool light. It's the exact same technology. Not to mention that once a light floods, it's pretty much a throwaway. So, you're betting a lot of money on a $20 gasket. There's a definite price barrier (my price is a little more than 3 times the cost of a standard 500 watt pool light) and, again, the technology hasn't been proven to last over the long haul. LED's last forever, but do the connectors, or the gaskets, or the internal circuit card that switches the different colors on and off?

I don't think builder are incurious. I think they're cautious. And pool equipment mfg's will sell anything, whether it's ready for market or not.

aerialitas mom - I don't know what brand safety cover you have, but Cover-Pools has had a notice on page 13 of their owner's manual since at least 2006 (copyright date for the manual I have) that states, "Galvanic corrosion tends to occur when dissimilar conducting materials are connected electrically and exposed to an electrolyte (salt in water). This can be a direct contact or secondary connection such as a common grounding path. An example of dissimilar conducting materials is stainless-steel screws into aluminum. From 1962 to 1998, galvanic corrosion rarely occurred on aluminum components of automatic covers.
Since 1999 when Underwriters Laboratories (UL) dictated that all metal components of automatic pool covers must be bonded to the pool grid, we have seen an increase of galvanic corrosion on some of the aluminum components. In addition, the popularity of electric chlorinators where salt is added to the pool water has increased.

These two changes in the industry are the reason you may experience galvanic corrosion on some aluminum components. In the past it may have taken over 20 years for any noticeable corrrosion. Today with bonded systems and salt in the pool water, reaction can occur within two to three years."

I bring all this up to point out that any salt system is going to bring this baggage with it. Even 3,000 ppm salinity is going to accelerate corrosion of your cover rails.

Consider this; the level of taste for sodium chloride in drinking water is 250 ppm. Most tap water tests far below that, usually around 50 ppm or less. Most pool water, with all that chloride from years of dissolved and inert chlorine seldom gets above 1,000 ppm chloride before it gets dumped. That's why they say it takes 20 years to see the kind of damage they're seeing in 2 to 3 years with salt systems. 3,000 ppm sodium chloride is a lot of chloride, and chloride is what causes corrosion.

So, you might want to revisit with your builder and your cover guy the applicability of salt with auto covers, and also, what they really know about all this and when they knew it. Any cover guy who says he never heard about it isn't paying attention.