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EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Posted by swimin07 (My Page) on
Wed, May 23, 07 at 11:07

Considering installing the Eco-Smarte pool sanitizing system, instead of a salt water system.

I am ordering my diy vinyl i/g kit tomorrow, and the vendor is recommending the EcoSmarte system instead of a salt system.

He says the pool will then be totally chlorine free, and that it will be cheaper to operate than a salt system (no salt to add, and less electricity)

Would like to get an independent opinion from people who have the system or from other pool builders who know of the Eco Smarte system.

Thanks in advance!

Here is a link that might be useful: Eco Smarte Link


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

When a company makes many misleading (and I'm being generous) statements on it's site (e.g. SWGs "must run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week", and SWGs "are very corrosive") I start to have my doubts about whatever it is that company is selling. When that company then misuses scientific information (e.g. raising concerns about trihalomethanes in the context of outdoor pools where those compounds are NOT an issue) to make points, those doubts are confirmed.

There may be some merit to their claims (though I seriously doubt it) but they're not very credible people. Another reason to doubt their claims is that no one else is making a similar system. If this actually worked there would be many manufacturers just as there are for SWGs (unless they had a patent which does not appear to be the case).


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Swimin07...mine will be installed this week to our new pool,and I'll let you know...we can't stand chlorine of any type so looking forward to a positive outcome with this. I had not heard of this until my PB gave me this site. Its a bit different than the one you posted and has more testimonials. Lots of science info.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ecosmarte.com


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

kurtv...thanks for your input. You make some very good points.

geminijenn...I look forward to hearing how things go with your installation...thanks for the link too.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Swimin07
I learned a lot today about this system. They do have a patent (kurtv mentioned this) also...this is the system that has sanitized the pools at the last 3 Olympic games and will be used at the next in Bejing. I will keep you updated...correcting my ph today...overwhelmed by info. Jenn


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

"...this is the system that has sanitized the pools at the last 3 Olympic games and will be used at the next in Bejing. I will keep you updated"

That's funny, I saw a similar claim in the last couple of days from some ozone advocates; I have no idea if either claim is true.

Jenn, Do you have any more info on the patent? I was unable to find one on the Patent Office's website.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

"...this is the system that has sanitized the pools at the last 3 Olympic games and will be used at the next in Bejing. I will keep you updated"

That's funny, I saw a similar claim in the last couple of days from some ozone advocates; I have no idea if either claim is true.

Jenn, Do you have any more info on the patent? I was unable to find one on the Patent Office's website.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I don't think the claim is true about the pools at the Olympics-- competition pools still have much higher chlorine sanitizing requirements than people's backyard pools.

Also the effectiveness behind eco-smarte hasn't been proven yet in legitimate scientific studies- here's a website that claims this is "junk science"

Here is a link that might be useful: Water Sanitation Claims - Junk Science


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

thanks everyone for your input !

Geminijenn...hows it going with your new Eco-Smarte system?


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

swimin07
so far...great, we are still new at it and getting the ph on track...much easier this week. It is mostly on oxdiation mode then about once a week switch it to ionization mode. We have a programmable system...but still learning all the other equipment timers etc.
We are happy with it...I've had zero algea. Once the unit was put on all the scale (and we had tons of it)..from the water truck...limestone caves and springs are prevelent in the area dissolved back into the water over the course of a week. It was as if my midnight shimmer pool was gray...and now it is the color its suppose to be.

We also had solar installed and love that too. 91 degrees for the water temp over the weekend. With the breezes coming off the mountains it felt just right.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Glad to see your posts kurtv. We are in the process of evaluating a replacement unit for my uniclor system that was installed 6 years ago. So far I like the Goldline Aqua-Rite by Hayward but my husband is adamant on a "chlorine" free pool. He came across Ecosmarte's website. Others have said you need to be a chemist if you plan on installing an oxygen ionization system - I'm not interested in that. I need something reliable and easy to install, operate and maintain. Have you looked at any other systems?


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

gsfloyd,
I am not a chemist...I have an ecosmarte system and so far so good...no big issue to operate, flip a switch, (only because my husband hasn't set the auto feature yet) and check the ph (doesn't everyone have to do that?) add a bit of acid once and a while...a lot less now than when it was new.
What type of pool do you have? Besides the fact that our family can't be in a clorine pool...the corrosive nature of the salt systems on decorative stone and the possible expense of ruined equipment (from corrosion) convinced me not to go there.
I used to live by the beach...if you have, or know of people who do...ask them what kind of damage salt can cause. I know there is no perfect system for everyone... just thought I'd share. Jenn


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

"Besides the fact that our family can't be in a clorine pool..."

Why is that?


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

racket- 3 of the 4 of us have extreme skin sensitivity...and sneeze, cough etc. when in clorine pools


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I just bought a house with a pool and I dont like chlorine, so I was looking at the ecosmart system, and some other copper ionizer systems that use really small amounts of chlorine.

Now I am inclined to believe that this stuff works like they say it does......Because I have been searching for scam reports, and cant really find any, thats how I found this blog.

If you type in any of the names of those guys selling crap on late night tv; like Carlton Sheets and Russ Whitney and "that crazy guy with government givaways", with the word "scam"...BOOM you get many many many customers complaining about these "systems" that are exagerated and dont really work , and about people who tried to get refunds but cant get them.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

The better question to ask is if they were that great why do so few companies produce them?

Ionizers have been around for a very long time, and have not become mainstream because they do not kill bacteria reliably enough.

Mark what you really should be looking for is lab results pertaining to the levels of harmfull bacteria in a pool that is not treated with chlorine.

I'd assume that if the pool doesnt grow algae who is going to complain. Ionic Copper is very effective at killing algae but very slow to kill bacteria.

Chlorine has a "stimga" of being some evil chemical, and people will blindly ignore the consequences of not using it.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I love FUD. Let me put this simply. Chlorine kills bacteria,algae, and oxidizes organics.

Things that cause red eyes:

1) pH is wrong
2) no free chlorine, just combined chlorine
3) and last and most controversial, lack of salt in the pool.

Eyes, as I understand, have a pH of about 7.5 .
Combined chlorine is an irritant.
Not unlike a lack of calcium in a plastered pool will pull it from the plaster, a lack of salt will pill the salt out of your eyes some, causing dry red eyes.

Copper and silver ions in your water, if you pH suddenly drops, can drop out of solution causing stains or cloudiness.

Remember, water is the universal solvent.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I had a very bad experience with this system. My 2 problems were blue staining, and recurring algae. I could have lived with the blue stain to have a non chlorine pool, which I desperately wanted, but the algae I could not live with. I spent over a year trying to get the ecosmarte system to be algae free, they would shock it with something and it would be clear for a few weeks, then it would fill with algae again. Their customer service was sub par, and simply blamed me, even though I had an employee of theirs coming to my house at least once a week, the system could not be made to work. In their defence, I do have a pool with alot of foliage around, I think the system could just not handle leaves falling in the pool. Maybe this system works indoors, or if you have only concrete around your pool, if that was my case I may even try a different non chlorine system again. For now I have opted for a salt water system as I wait for improved technology and better customer service.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I think it's very telling that the ecosmarte proponents seem to disappear when asked serious questions. Makes you wonder...


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Installed our EcoSmarte System early this year in Irving, Texas. We were happy with it until July when the algae blooms started. We are trying to keep them under control by running the pump longer (ours is on 12 hrs per day), by adding non-chlorine, potassium-based shocks, recommended algaecides, brushing 2-3 times per week and shocking the "glass pack" in the filter unit every month. We have glass instead of sand. The ph, hardness, copper levels must be followed religiously. It is more work and more costly for chemicals than I thought. But we too have trees with leaves that fall in the pool. The jury is still out. By the way, their manual is filled with poor sentence structure and a bewildering logic that goes off in all directions. Murky writing...kind of like my pool is now.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I do not want copper in my pool. Copper and other metals cause many health problems also. Or is the copper (Cu2+) from these systems different than Cu or Cu+ ? Besides I didn't think copper ionization removed organic matter.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

At what point did everyone forget what a pool is. It's communal bathing, not some vessel that we can twist to OUR needs. Water grows gunk. Not properly treated, you will be gunky.

Chlorine is the cheapest, most effective way to keep water clean. Always has, always will be. We improve it by bringing the salt and electricity to the pool site with a SWG. Look up what the accepted levels of metals are in your pool water. ZERO! Copper and silver ions are not good for your pool. Yes, these people will say it works but they always neglect to tell you you need a .5 chlorine for killing bacteria. I've never seen anything without chlorine work in 25 years. If items such as Nature 2, Frog, etc, are so great, why do they need a chlorine start if chlorine is so bad?


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

When building our pool I found the new UV system. We went with salt water instead. See link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://shop.solardirect.com/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=332


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

i this this article finishing this thread...

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/aquacrack.html#ECOS

Here is a link that might be useful: reference


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

After years of using chemicals I switched to EcoSmarte because, even if the writing is poor, the science behind it is correct: oxygen generated by the electrolysis on the titanium plates kills bacteria and oxidizes organic matter, and copper ions in non toxic (to humans) quantity kill algae and prevent their growth. I installed it last September after painting the pool with epoxy paint and replacing the paper filer by a diatomaceous earth filter. The result is almost miraculous: no maintenance except pH adjustement once a month (2 qts acid) and checking copper level with a 4 minutes test. So far so good after a winter with lots or rain, dirt from the planters, leaves, now the yellow pollen from the pine trees, sticking to the sides, and still no algae! I have an automatic pool cleaner (Zodiac Barracuda) working with the pump 2x 3 hours a day ( morning and late afternoon) and the pool is covered with a solar blanket. So far so good. Waiting to see how it fares when the temperature is good for swimmimg.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

"the science behind it is correct: oxygen generated by the electrolysis on the titanium plates kills bacteria and oxidizes organic matter, and copper ions in non toxic (to humans) quantity kill algae and prevent their growth."

"oxygen generated by the electrolysis on the titanium plates kills bacteria and oxidizes organic matter"

It's possible for o2 to do this, but this toy isn't generating enough oxygen. A smaller ozone (o3) would be far more effective.

"copper ions in non toxic (to humans) quantity kill algae and prevent their growth."

So does chlorine, but the science behind chlorine far more substantiated than this snake oil factory.

Trust me, people do not like chlorine, and if something worked as well as this thing is advertised to work I would put them on every pool, spa, and water feature we build. The truth of the matter is, this product is not founded on good science, just Rhetoric, and Hyperbole.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Hi swimin07,

Since, I am now considering to have either Salt water System or Ecosmart Sysytem for my liner pool. Would you provide me the e mail contact and reply for your final decision based on all the replies you received from the members. Your help will be appreciated. Also, the best price deal and the installation suggestions would be useful.

thx!

bjyot


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I am planning a pool and read up on this and other alternatives for quite a long time. I decided against it & also UV. As noted above, you catch warning signs in how it is marketed. Will go with salt system as it is proven. I like good UV systems but you have very long pump times which is very expensive in a large pool. For indoor pools UV is very helpful to minimize poor air quality over the pool. Outdoor pools do not face this problem.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I'm not an expert, but I'm working on my DIY vinyl inground (rather large) pool, and I too was considering this as an alternate system.

Actually, I was researching EcoSmarte's competion ChlorineFree, but the two are based on the same principles.

I've got a little bit of a technical background (I tend to read technical manuals like most people read a good mystery novel). So I wasn't satisfied with the basic set of info. (or should I say lack thereof) that the sales reps. are pushing. Finally I got to speak with one of their the "Engineers," who sounded remarkably similar to the sales reps. Despite the fact that the orginal rep. guaranteed that the system would work for me and my 56,000 gallon monster, the "Engineer" finally admitted that it would take an additional amount of residual chlorine to actually work. But not to worry, it was ONLY 10% of the normal amount of chlorine. Which he quoted at 2ppp-4ppm and said that with the size of my pool I should be at 10% of the top of that range. It doesn't sound that bad, but wait, that's 10% of 4ppm => .4ppm!!! Well, and again I'm not an expert, but I thought most residental pools were actually run at 1-3ppm, and I personally ran my previous above ground pool as close to 1ppm as I could get away with. Well, .4ppm is just a little less than half of what I was doing anyway. That's a lot of chlorine for a "Chlorine Free" pool!

Not to mention that the point in adding this type of system was to do away with handling chlorine in the first place. So, not only do you have to purchase and install and maintain their system, now you have to maintain a seperate system for the chlorine as well. So you could add a floater, or an automatic chlorine dispenser, or... ENOUGH already!

And we haven't even mentioned their flow issues yet have we! Well according to the "Engineer", I would have to run my pump 24/7 to even get the system work! Oh, and that was in addition to purchasing an extra cell (which the original sales rep. said wasn't necessary). And it may not even be enough if I have a heavy bather load, or lots of orgainic material from my trees etc. Now wait one minute here, in their sales brochure they said that one of the main advantages to their system was that they were uneffected by bather load and orgainics! Bahh! Their own "Engineers" say different. Not to mention the supposed "cost savings" for upgrading to their system vs. salt because "everybody knows" that salt systems need to be run 24/7 and their system needs to be run only a fraction of that. Funny how that worked out!

I've read all their claims about how horrible salt systems and chlorine systems are. I'll give them that some of it MAY have been true for old salt systems that ran at a much higher level of salt than the newer systems. So while it's not actually false, it is highly misleading. And as far as any advantage of their systems over chlorine, well, if I've got to have a chlorine system too??? Oh, and did I mention that next year their "Chlorine Free" system will be availble with an optional auto-chlorinator!! Talk about double standards! Please!

Maybe this thing actually works for spas, or smaller pools. I can't speak to that.

It just won't work for me. I would LOVE to be "Chlorine Free" but until I can be really chlorine free, I'm going with salt.

My 2 cents
-Renee


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I had EcoSmarte for 6 weeks. My PB promised to switch it out with a salt water chlorinator if I wasn't happy. I did switch it out because I wore down from all the chemical testing. Ph up, then adding acid, then more testing. Then I got my first bloom on a hot day. I immediately switched out and I am happy now. By the way, when I backwashed my filter just prior to installing the salt system, I had my filter air bleed open on top and it spewed a large bright blue stain on my tan wall. Hmmmmm


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts. We are buying an above ground pool (apx 23,000 gal water) and were researching the Ecosmarte system. Does anyone have current feedback, concerns, issues with this system??
Swimin07, did you get your system and how is it going for you?
We appreciate any input you can share...

Thanks


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Just remember that UV, ozone, and ionizer systems like EcoSmarte have no residual kill power. On the other hand, this is what chlorine excels at. Residual kill power is what you want when the neighborhood kid comes over to swim and has an accident. Chlorine immediately goes to work killing the "accident". UV, ozone, and ionizer will eventually get around to killing the accident but not quickly enough for my tastes.

By the way, from EcoSmarte's website, they sell an average of 83 units per month. 10,000 systems installed over the past 10 years.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Ozone and UV have faster kill times than chlorine.

The difference is that chlorine isn't as reactive as ozone, so it remains in the water longer. UV isn't a chemical or doesn't create one. It rips apart the the bacteria that comes in contact with the ultraviolet light inside of the unit.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I read something quite compelling, I would like to know what logic brought someone to the conclusion that Chlorine somehow has a better residual, or any residual effect for that matter, than copper. Chlorine is constantly at work as both a sanitizer and oxidizer, meaning that those molecules are never at rest, always either oxidizing or sanitizing particulate in the water. This is why chlorine is constantly added to the pool and the divergence between free and total chlorine are always increasing. Copper by contrast with ECOsmarte is only added once a week and maintains a residual effect weeks even months after it is added to the water. To further support that statement when a pool in the north is closed for the winter and it has ECOsmarte the copper residual is set at .7 and holds over the winter so the pool is clear in the spring. Chlorine pools are loaded with chemicals e.g. Chlorine, but in the spring the water is green and murky because the Chlorine has off gassed from the pool as it is considerably less stable than copper in the water. So Chlorine pools get shocked heavily and loaded with chemicals again in the spring to clear the pool. I would also like to address another mis-stated fact from the same poster which is how Chlorine vs. ECOsmarte affects an "accident" in the pool. Firstly if the "accident" is urine chlorire doesn't kill the accident it oxidizes the uric acid, ECOsmarte likewise would oxidize the uric acid with OH- which the system creates while in oxidize mode. Because OH- has a greater reduction potential than Chlorine, ECOsmarte actually clears that mishap faster. If we are talking about fecal matter the pool should be drained with no exception! Claiming that Chlorine is going to kill the "accident" is a very dangerous statement to make. High levels of E-Coli are present in fecal matter and dont just make people ill, it kills them. This is why public pool are closed and drained in the event of fecal matter entering the pool and if they are not they are hit with a heavy fine and can be closed permanently. I know this is a just blog but please be careful when speaking about such matters, mis-speaking can lead to very serious consequences.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Pools green up over the winter because light got to them. No Light = No Algae. It's that simple. Pools with mesh covers may green up if the water gets above 60 degrees. Periodically adding liquid chlorine in late fall and mid spring months and circulating it helps to prevent the green up. Filtering and proper chem levels for given conditions clears the water. It's not because copper is in there.

Adding pH and Alk increasers in the spring is a result if dilution with precipitation. Our rain tends to drop a pool's pH to about 7.

Chlorine dissipates into the atmosphere. Spent chlorine may, depending on what it combined with. Combined chlorine can be removed by shocking to 10x the combined level. This should be done periodically, not just to remove the spent chlorine, but also to attack anything that is resistant to the lower levels typically found in residential pools.

The copper acts as an algaecide. The titanium plated, when energized oxidizes anything that passes by.

If an AFD were to occur, you don't drain the pool. Vacuum to waste any solids and shock the pool to 20ppm of chlorine for at least 12 hours. EcoSmartes should be turned off until the chlorine is gone.

Telling people to drain the pool with result in a lot of pools popping up out of the ground, is bad for a liner, wastes thousand of gallons of water and will likely have the EPA/DEP on you.

E Coli is only one of many things that can cause a person to have an ADF. Fecal matter can also get in a pool from birds and other wild life. Should we drain our pools because a frog or a snake crapped? I think not.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I can appreciate the concern for popping pools and collapsed pool liners, obviously there will be mitigating circumstance which will preclude someone from draining a pool completely. As much water as can be removed from the pool should be if it cannot be drained all the way. I asked ECOsmarte what their thoughts were and they follow a similar instruction as yours but maintain that as much water as possible should be drained out to minimize the amount of dangerous microbes in the pool. I like the sarcasm about snake poop; I would have to imagine that was aimed at the ignorant. Fecal matter from wildlife contains a lower concentration of E-Coli than Human Fecal matter and likewise occurs in smaller proportions. I would agree that draining a pool (full or partially) because a snake left fecal matter in the pool would likely be overly prudent however one may feel differently if 20-30 ducks crapped in the pool which is what it would take to approach the levels of fecal matter and concentration of E-Coli that humans leave behind.

You make some valid points about the greening of pools and the influence of light on that process but it is really an irrelevant statement. The discussion was on the residual sanitizing effect of copper vs. chlorine. Copper holds in the water better and thus keeps the algae from growing in the fall and spring when the pool is exposed to light whereas chlorine has long since dissipated and doesn't provide any residual effect. You must be supporting my statement since you said proper chem. levels must be maintained in the fall and spring which is the point behind the whole discussion. Copper lasts all winter and keeps algae out, chlorine must be added regularly because it has no residual long-lasting potential, the copper keeps the water clear, its not magic. Also it is a contradiction to say that copper is an algaecide and to also say copper is not what keeps the water from turning green...?


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

An uncirculated pool exposed to light and temps 60 degrees and above will green up. In two weeks it will have a coat of algae, copper level or not. Once the water drops to below 60, most pool based algae becomes dormant.

If the pool is covered with a cover that prevents light from entering a pool, no algae will grow.

E Coli is not the only bug that causes or can be released in an ADF.

Copper is not a sanitizer. It is a poison to many forms of plant life such as algae. It tends to gravitate to the bottom when left in an uncirculated pool. It has a higher specific gravity than water. The walls will be the first to green up. Guess what part of the pool is hardest to clean from an algae bloom.

The Eco Smarte system works when the pool is running to sanitize the water and only then.

Chlorine works all the time assuming there is a residual of free chlorine in the water.

E Coli is killed by chlorine as are a great many other organisms.

I have dogs to take care of the ducks, geese, and gulls by me. Watching my lab chase geese is fun. She wants to play and they don't. Alas, my shepherd chases skunks. Not the brightest light in chandelier I sorry to say.

Liners shrink when water is removed. If there is a high water table, it'll float as can a fiberglass pool and a concrete pool will be subjected to stresses that cause cracks in the shell.

Eco Smarte systems need chems watched too. A normally operating systems needs the pH at 6.8 so when in ionize mode, the copper will erode off the plates in the cell, calcium to 400 ppm and copper at .7ppm. and a weekly shocking with non chlorine based shock. Algaecide 60 is also suggested. Periodic checking for phosphates is strongly urged.

Chlorine pools need the pH between 7.2 and 7.6 for it to be at it's most effective. Pools with heaters should be at the upper end of that range to keep the copper in the heat exchanger.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I am glad to hear you have a dog to chase the birds away they can be quite a problem, not as much as the skunk however, let me know if you find anything to take care of that.

You seem to know a lot about the parameters of the ECOsmarte system which is good. Again I stress that there is no dispute that algae will form in uncirculated water above 60F. I have always opened my pool in April and we do not get consistent 60F weather up here before April. The point is that copper holds longer in the water than chlorine and thus provides a residual protection against microbes and algae where as chlorine needs to be constantly added and shocking normally is necessary.

Where you are wrong about ECOsmarte is that it requires any kind of shocking regularly. Shocking is used to clear cloudy water and usually it is our fault as the pool owner for not keeping up with normal filter maintenance or pH management. I have only ever used an algaecide when I had a bad algae bloom and typically it is because my phosphates were high or I forgot to backwash my filter.

Copper is a sanitizer, registered with the EPA as a pesticide to boot. NASA developed Ionization of both Silver and copper to purify water in space where Chlorine is not applicable due to the fact it has no residual effect. They couldn't bring chlorine into space to continually sanitize the drinking water supply. Further many hospitals are switching from stainless steel door handles and push plates to copper because the contact kill rate for copper is faster on pathogens than stainless steel. You are almost right about it being a poison to plants; really all metals in elevated levels are toxic. Iron can be toxic to human, like silver or copper if the levels are too high, I guess the same holds true for chlorine though. The beauty of copper is you cannot get enough copper in the water to become toxic to people before it falls out of solution, unless you push the pH down to about 3, in which case the pH is a far greater concern.

Like Calcium, iron, and other transition salts which copper is considered, TDS stays in the water based on a multitude of factors such as temperature and pH, (WATER SATURATION INDEX), because water is a solvent. Higher pH waters hold less TDS and thus will have TDS fallout especially in warmer temperatures. This is supported by the tremendous amounts of scale and calcium deposits in the western portion of the country and desert areas. Chlorine pools struggle with this issue because the pH of chlorinated pool water must be kept between 7.4 - 7.8 as recommended by the equipment manufacturers. The chlorine further pushes the TDS out of the water so chlorinated water with a 7.0 pH will eat up the heat exchanger as the water demands more TDS than the chlorine allow to be suspended in the water matrix. Chlorine would be much more effective if operated at 7.0 but this is just not possible without damaging the heater.

Pools that run at a 7.0 and have no chlorine do not push TDS out, rather it holds it in, which is why ECOsmarte pools do not have the calcium fallout and scale issues otherwise seen with chlorine. The 400ppm calcium that you pointed to is a safe guard against the 7.0 pH stealing copper from the heat exchanger, with 400 PPM of calcium the water saturation index is satisfied and will not damage the heat exchanger, it actually makes it last longer because now there is no chlorine. This is supported by ECOsmarte doubling the manufacturer's warrantee on pool/spa heaters when no chlorine or salt has been used.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

You, my friend are the one mistaken about shocking. Shocking may clear clouding water, especially if the free chlorine level drops to 0, temps are up and the sun is doing it's thing. It also is used to remove combined chlorine and to attack hardier biologicals.

Too much copper in the water can turn things green like dyed hair and the deck.

Anyone that runs their pool above 7.6 is asking for trouble.
Proper pH of a pool is between 7.2 and 7.6 for supporting the ideal chlorine effectiveness. Pools I maintain, except the Eco Smartes are in that range.

Elemental copper does nothing for bacteria. Silver does. Silver falls out and makes back stains if the pH drops below 6.7, I have seen it. Some may remember a product called Sildate. I have to assume the Eco Smarte folks know this and that is why it's not in the mix.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I was referring to non-chlorine shock being used with the ECOsmarte system, sorry for not clairifying that. Copper can turn things green and more likely blue when pH and/or Cu levels are too high and your absolutely right about the silver staining black that is probably why ECOsmarte doesn't use silver.

I know for a fact that bacteria is killed by copper, if have put extensive research into that fact. Copper is absorbed by bateria through the cell membrane and the ion migrates to the enzyme receptor responsible for processing nutrients and blocks it. This causes the bateria to starve off and die which is why it takes longer than Chlorine, even though it only takes a few minutes. Silver likewise blocks an enzyme receptor in bateria but it effects the reproductive process which haults the replication of bateria thus limiting new growth of existing bacteria.

This is why copper/silver are commonly found together, silver stops future growth to give copper time to kill everything and copper is effective against algae as we both agree. In residential pools silver is not neccessary because copper alone can kill bateria before it gets out of hand. Commercial pools have considerable higher bather loads and thus use both and are also required by law to have chlorine. 2 people in a 20,000 gallon private pool is a different circumstance than 50 people in a 120,000 gallon commercial pool.

It sounded like you said you take care of some ECOsmarte pools is that correct?


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Yes, I do. I have several customers with them.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I've read the comments. Back to basics. All pools need to have good control of debris and filtration. As far as I know, properly operating D.E. filters will have the highest efficiency in removal of fine particles (down to 1-10 microns). Keeping debris (organic material) out of the pool is essential to controlling bacteria, algae, viruses, parasites and other microorganisms. Sand and cartridge filters do not remove as fine material as diatomaceous earth. If you have a high organic material load (leaves, soil, lots of people: microorganisms-body oil-dander-hair-cotton lint, pets, alligators or whatever) you'll need to control it. Otherwise you'll run the risk of high bacteria counts and algae, regardless of what you use (chlorine or other halogens, copper, silver, ozone, hydrogen peroxide or other oxidizers, a non-chlorine based antiseptic, UV, ions, etc). Swimming pools should have low turbidity and be crystal clear. Water chemistry ,especially pH, must be monitored and controlled. Once you get algal surface growth, pink slime (a bacterium) or fungi with a biofilm, it's difficult to eliminate due to its protective slime. Just like cancer cells can form hydrogen peroxide for protection from white blood cells, slime can prevent chlorine or other oxidizers, disinfectants like Quads, antiseptics or copper from working. The more the surface pitting and crevices the more difficult algae is to control. Chlorine tends to rise, and then evaporate from pools. That's why chlorine concentrations may be perfect at the top where sampled but inadequate at the bottom, sides and in crevices. Kim Kisner invented stabilized chlorine to solve this problem, was sued by chlorine mfrs and won a pyrrhic victory. Chlorine (an oxidizer), bromine and fluorine can produce toxic by-products. Vitamin C is an antioxidant and will neutralize the effects of chlorine in a bathtub. http://swimming.about.com/od/allergyandasthma/a/cl_pool_problem.htm
Since human microorganisms pose the largest disease risk to us and public pools with its diverse population the highest risk of RWIs (recreational water illness). Chlorine is effective at controlling most microorganisms. Some bacteria are chlorine resistant. Some parasites, like Cryptosporidium require 16 hours at 10ppm (8hrs @ 20ppm or 6.7 days @ 1ppm) for inactivation due to diarrheal accidents. Formed stool incidents require lower concentrations and contact time. http://www.odh.ohio.gov/ASSETS/97E09EB1090E4AEF90CBDDBFA1BCC30F/fecalacc.pdf
Since chlorine residuals along with coliform and E. coli bacteria testing are the present gold standard with respect to preventing RWIs, I want to smell it in public pools. If its just me and family, I knew where weve been, whos well , want the pool to look clean, have no algae or slime, dont want to smell chlorine (actually the toxic byproducts) and not have the water burn my eyes and see a halo after swimming. So a salt system with chlorine cell will work, copper/silver, ozone (if recirc rate and ppm is sufficient, along with good filtration and algae control), combo systems. The Ecosmarte web site states the following "Since salt water pools produce chlorine, the sanitizing effectiveness of the system is impacted by changes in temperature, bather load, sunlight and rainfall. Changes in any of these factors may require additional "shocking" of the water to prevent an algae outbreak. ECOsmartes effectiveness is not significantly affected by these factors. An ECOsmarte owner does not have to be concerned about doing anything different to treat their pool if they have 20 kids in the pool all day. The pool water will still provide bacterial and algae protection for a full week or more."
This does not make sense to me. How can any system not be affected by organic load?
They also state that "This will put copper in your pool which is a great algaecide and deadly to viruses." I could not find studies showing that the Ecosmarte systems copper has been proven to kill viruses. Comments?


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scam: chlorine free usa, clfree, ecosmarte system...reference

I should have read this blog before I bought CLfree Chlorine & Salt free water system from Phil Francisco. I think this copper and titanium oxidizer is a scam. My experience was very similar to dbrentz's posting from Irving,TX. Ill be adding more details below.

I recently had an inground pool installed, around 9/2008. I was an owner of above ground pool previously, so I was already familiar with keeping ph and chlorine levels. I wanted to get the best for my kids so I was researching chlorine alternatives for pool sanitation. I came across ECOSmarte and CLFreeUSA product. I called CLFree sales rep Phil Francisco, he convinced me to buy it for $2195. The product came right away. I had it installed as per their instructions. But as soon as I had it installed, I wanted to see if it was doing anything. Checking the copper levels was the first test. When you check the copper levels its like reading the ept stick, you're not quite sure if there's enough copper in the pool. When I called the technician Bill Gilles, he told me to run the system 24 hours for 3 days, that should be enough to keep the copper level for my pool size which is about 35000gal. I had to close the pool after only two weeks of use in September of 2008. I wasn't quite sure if the System was doing anything because my pool guys started the pool with chlorine and stabilizers. So there was still a lot of Chlorine in the pool when I installed the system in September of 2008.

I reopened the pool 6/2/2009. The pool guys used the usual chlorine shock and other chemicals to balance the pool. No chlorine stabilizers as recommended by Clfree. The pool looked clean when the guys left. I was now exclusively using CLfree system. As recommended previously by Bill Gilles, 24hours for 3 days, however I ran it for 14days 24hours a day. I wanted it to get as much copper in the pool as I can get. The pool looked clean but there was an almost invisible slime on the wall which was Algae. This also caused a sour unpleasant smell in the pool. I scrubbed the walls but the slime came back next day. I recently bought Hayward TigerShark to clean the pool. It wasn't able to climb the walls. During this time I wasn't sure if it was the robot or the slime of the wall was causing the robot not to climb the walls. I also had to backwash the filter almost on a daily basis to get any pumping pressure going. After I scrubbed the walls, the algae came right back the next day.

After 2 weeks of this mess, I had to try something else. I used the chlorine shock and chorine tablets. After the very first day, all the problems disappeared. Slime on the wall were gone, the sour unpleasant smell disappeared, my robot can climb walls and my filter had a great pressure to pump all day long. I only keep the pump running during the day for 8 hours now. The pool looks great, smells great, feels great and the pool is clearer than ever. No more scrubbing, no more checking for copper, no more running the pump 24/7.

After this enlightening experience, I contacted Phil Francisco to return the Clfree system for a full refund. He pointed to the 30day Money Back Guarantee list on his web site and asks me to check for Phosphates. He will not refund the product. I guess he conveniently forgot that he promised he would refund after next seasons opening. Its obvious to me now that this is a scam. They will have you keep checking different items in the pool until you run out of time to return for refund. This is to hide the fact that the copper and titanium system isnt doing anything at all. They are making you think you are not smart enough to know how this system works. So you keep trying what they ask you to do, until you finally realize this system really doesnt work. By that time, its too late and youre stuck with a system that not only does nothing but it destroys what little chlorine there was in the pool, which was doing good. Credit Card will only allow up to 60days for disputed charges so; it looks like the court system is the route to get my money back. Phil Francisco seems to be very familiar with the court systems from the return emails I got back from him. Currently, I have disconnected the system and working with Clfree to get my money back. Im hopeful and Im willing to continue the fight until whatever end. However, realistically, Ill probably never see my hard earned $2195, which I thought I was spending to make my kids life better by providing the best possible pool sanitation possible.

So the moral of the story, I feel like the emperor in the Emperors new clothes. Do Not buy the copper based pool sanitizer. Its a scam. Please learn from my $2195 mistake. Use the tried and true chlorine. Chlorine Free USA is a scam and any other system that uses similar copper technology.

If you want further details. Please contact me at popcowboy@excite.com.


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scam: chlorine free usa, clfree, ecosmarte system...reference

Please let me know if my blog changed your mind about purchasing any copper based pool sanitation system. If I can convince just a few people not to buy this system, I think my money was well spent. I'll think of it as an expense for a Consumer Report like test.
Please let me know if I convinced you not to purchase any copper based system.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

You've affirmed what I have always suspected, and made my turning away clients have merit.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

My third year with EcoSmarte no chlorine pool in Southern California. It was good to open again the pool in April with no green in it - the copper really works.
By the way, for those who wonder if Copper kills viruses, of course it does. Use Google to find out, or read yet another study showing it in the following url: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1855605

In all honesty, I started the pool with clean tap water and it took some time (3 months) to have it fine tuned and working under an easy routine (Check pH once a week, add 2 qts acid every 3 weeks on average). I don't even check the copper every week because it is very stable. I had one algea bloom (I went away for three weeks and a high pH) and had to shock it with non-chlorine shock and added some non-copper algaecide.

I think the longer start-up causes people to lose patience. It is true that Chlorine is the great and easy eraser: just put it in the pool and it burns everything, including swimmers, their sinuses and their swimsuits. Then it goes into the atmosphere and does the same, including damaging the ozone layer. It is no longer allowed in many countries outside the USA because of its health and environmental impacts.

Everybody who uses our pool always comments about the clarity, softness and absence of chlorine odor. We love it and use it. It is also much less expensive to maintain than chlorine pools, and that's a problem for the pool and maintenance businesses. However, there are thousands of pools to convert, to EcoSmarte, or to other systems that do not use, or use much less Chlorine (Ozone, salt systems etc.).

Another benefit of our EcoSmarte system is that no chlorine makes everything last longer around the pool: pool cleaner, pool cover, plumbing and valves, lower corrosion etc.

Three years, and so far so good - thank you EcoSmarte


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

"By the way, for those who wonder if Copper kills viruses, of course it does. Use Google to find out, or read yet another study showing it in the following url: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1855605 "

Wow good thing I'm, not using stainless steel to disinfect my pool.

Oh btw copper is toxic to humans. The EPA standard for drinking water is not to exceed 1.3 MG/L.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

The copper concentration used in the EcoSmarte pool system is 1/4 of the minimum EPA level. If you drink 2 gallons of the pool water, you will ingest about the amount of copper present in a daily pill of multivitamin.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Your body doesnt absorb the copper either? What does it do to your hair, and pool surface? What are the kill time of copper compared to chlorine?

I hope you guys see that Paulo is connected in on way or another with EcoSmarte. Please take the information being posted by Paulo as an advertisement.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I installed the Ecosmarte Turbo system in my pool on April 29th this year when we opened up the pool. So far it has been good. The biggest thing with the startup is staying on top of the PH. In the beginning I was using 2 gallons of acid a week to keep a 7.0 PH. For some reason my PH was high when we opened this year. After speaking to Ecosmarte they said the best way to train the PH to stay down is to let it rise up to almost 7.2 and then give it a heavier dose. They claim the PH will be trained to stay lower. This method has worked be cause I am now using much less acid. The only thing I have put in the pool is acid and Phosfree. I have not shocked the pool.
As far as the water goes it is fantastic. It is crystal clear. It is amazing how clear the water is. The best part is no Chlorine. Chlorine is especially bad when using the Spa. With the hot aerated swirling water the chlorine fumes are really bad. Now when we get out of the spa we actually feel cleaner than when we get in. Your skin feels softer and cleaner and it is not itchy and smelling like chlorine. They say the water feels better and they are correct. Also, now my wife can swim without goggles. Her eyes do not burn.

Now for the down side.
First, I noticed higher pressures because of the flow restriction in the chamber. They claim they have been tested for flow but from my calculation from the size of the copper bars there is a 41% reduction in area inside the chamber over an empty 2" PVC chamber or 2" pipe(See the math below). I will be addressing this with a bypass soon. I may get a second chamber and put the copper plates in it and install it in the bypass. This way I only need to bypass when I need more copper and with only the thinner Titanium plates in the main chamber there will not be much flow reduction.
Second, since the oxygen works different than chlorine in removing unwanted material the pool does seem to get a little dirtier than with chlorine. It is my understanding that chlorine burns off this stuff and the oxygen combines with it and is then filtered out. This method must leave cleaner water because in 5 years I have never seen the water this clear.

I am hoping we continue to have such good results because it is great not having Chlorine.

Flow Area:

2" empty pipe or chamber = 3.141 square inches
2 pcs 1-3/4" x 3/8" copper electrodes = 1.312 " "

1.312 divided by 3.141 = 41.7% reduction in area


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I hope you will not be accused of advertising for EcoSmarte because it works for you :)

I am just an EcoSmarte owner who has done a lot of homework and tries to use facts. This may explain why I looked for publications proving or disproving a few things I have read on this blog. My being a scientist must compound the problem :)

Like the previous user experienced it, I reported that it takes some time to get the pool equilibrated, and we can get an algae flare in the process. I have reached the point where pH is very stable, I am even wondering if it is not too low (around 6.8)

That being said, I like a lot your concept of a second bypass, and will build one myself. I have noticed that since the pH is stable, my Titanium plates get dirty relatively fast and I have to clean them after 2-3 months (Is that normal?). I read in the directions that there may be a "parasitic" current between the copper electrodes and the Titanium electrodes. Separating them in parallel chambers may eliminate that effect, resulting in longer life of the copper electrodes, and less copper precipitation on the titanium electrodes.

Do you know where to find the transparent tubing used by the manufacturer?

Regarding water clarity, I replaced my paper cartridges by a DE filter when installing the EcoSmarte system and have never had such crystal clear weater since this upgrade!


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Sand filters filled with Eco-Glass instead of pool filter sand also produces a finer clarity than a cartridge or regular sand. The B/W needs change though, from a 10 lb rise in tank pressure down to a 6 lb rise.

Scott


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

IMO the only real owner on this thread is newpoolownerny. The rest are part of a spam campaign. Racket knows whats going on.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

renovxpt;

I am in no way affiliated with Eco=Smarte. I did work for a dealer at one time, but that time has passed. Any trolling going on does not include me. I have only spoken from my experiences.

Scott


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I didnt want to post because I did not want to get hammered by Chlorine lovers. Hopefully this wont go that way.

As far as stray voltage goes. If you check the electrodes with the wires removed you will also get voltage. The E-clear system uses 2 separate chambers for the electrodes. Maybe they are onto something. It has not been a problem for me yet. My plates are fairly clean after 6 weeks. I could put up with 2-3 months since we live near Philadelphia and the season is short. I am still using a lot of acid though. I started at 2 gallons a week and last week I was down to 1 gallon but this week we only went 5 days and I am back up to a 7.2 PH. Well it is a little better but we are going on 7 weeks now. Ecosmarte says it is a big pool although it only 30,000. Maybe it is worse because it has a large surface area with a Spa. The deep end is only 6 feet.

Some people complain about the maintenance on a DE filter but I dont mind backwashing. I did not enjoy acid cleaning the grids though. I did not know if they needed to be done but we are going on 5 or 6 years now. They were brighter but did seem much different and the pressures were the same as last year. They probably were fine and did not need to be cleaned. This is one thing that puzzles me about Ecosmarte. They claim that the Grids need to Acid washed every year because of calcium buildup and yet they claim to remove calcium buildup. I asked them about this and was told the system should remove the calcium from the filter. Time will tell. I have not one bit of buildup around the waterline now and I think the heavy calcium that was under the waterfall is starting to go away. The only buildup there is the old stuff that is way above the waterline. We dont run the waterfall because of leaks. This is a long story that goes back to the PB.

Here are some of the sites you will need.

E-Clear:
http://www.eclear.co.za/home_system.php

I have found the exact couplings Ecosmarte uses made by Waterway.
The couplings are WW4005050 or 4005050 and I have found them at:

http://www.poolandspa.com/catalog/product002580000331.cfm $6.62 ea.

http://www.poolpartsonline.com/searchadv.aspx?SearchTerm=4005050 $9.92 ea.

The Clear PVC is available from McMaster-Carr:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#49035k28/=2derpm $33.34 for a 4 foot length

I do not know if you have a McMaster-Carr distributor near you. I have an account with them. I dont know if you need one or can do a walk-in at the store. If you are close to one it may be worth a try. If you pay cash they should be able to do it. I have also see a piece on Ebay but it said it has a slight blue color. Item# 320385379179


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Scott, I was not referring to you. Sorry for the misinterpretation.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

renovxpt and racket: there is nothing irregular going on here. I have zero affiliation with EcoSmarte aside of buying their system in June 2007 and talking once to their rep over the phone.
I love it just as much as you love your own systems and it has worked well for me, that's all.
Thank you for your understanding.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

edpa,

Thanks a lot for the information - looks like there is yet another project on my list!


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

The NYTimes had an article last year about alternatives to chlorination for pool owners/builders. It mentions several options and companies. Here's an excerpt:

-- Several pool experts she consulted told her that chlorine was the only option; others suggested a saline system, which uses sodium chloride, but because that produces chlorine in the pool, it did not address her concerns.

Ms. Glazer eventually learned of a system that eliminates the need for chlorine and other chemicals, using a combination of ozone and copper and silver ions. That system can be added on to existing pools, at a cost ranging from $10,000 to $20,000. Because Ms. Glazer was starting fresh, she spent $60,000 to build her pool, which has a panoramic view of the ocean, roughly $20,000 more than if shed built a chlorinated model.

There are several ways to eliminate chlorine or significantly reduce the use of it, although the pool industry remains skeptical of their effectiveness and it is often difficult to find builders to install them.

TechnoPure, a company based in Uxbridge, Mass., makes a system that pumps pool water through a chamber containing coated titanium plates which oxidize and burn off organic waste. Copper and zinc ions sanitize the water, resulting in a pool thats "virtually maintenance free in terms of chemicals," said Chris Capozzoli, who founded the company seven years ago. He said the system costs around $5,500 for an average-size residential pool and can be installed during construction or added to an existing pool.

Another company, DEL Ozone, based in San Luis Obispo, Calif., makes generators that inject ozone gas into the water as it recirculates, oxidizing bacteria and killing microorganisms. The generators are usually employed as a supplemental sanitizer to reduce reliance on chlorine, but according to Beth Hamil, vice president for corporate compliance and market development at DEL, its possible to rely solely on ozone by using a larger generator and running the recirculating pump continuously. (Energy efficient pumps are available.)

The so-called natural swimming pools that have slowly migrated to America from Europe are another option. The chlorine-free pools, which resemble ponds and must be built from scratch, circulate water through aquatic plants that act as organic cleansers.

Alternative technologies arent new (DEL began to sell ozone systems for pools and spas in 1980), but they have grown in popularity in recent years as people who dislike swimming in chlorinated water become aware of their options.

-- Cont'd at link --

Here is a link that might be useful: Alternatives to chlorinated pools


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SCAM: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

renovxpt is almost right. It looks like there are only two actual owners of the system rest are SPAM. newpoolownerny(me)=CLfree System and dbrentz=ECOsmarte System. It's hard to argue against all the scientific advertisements and all the realistic looking scientific numbers and data that basically says chlorine is bad and copper is good. I really wanted to make this copper system work. But I came to the conclusion that I will need some form of chemical to control the sanitation in conjunction with this copper based system. No chlorine forms of chemicals are Phosfree, Potassium Shock, Algaecides, Bromine, and even small amount of Chlorine. So if I were to use all these chemicals to control sanitation why do I need copper and titanium oxidizer at all. dbrentz's experience is almost identical to my experience. Copper system alone cannot maintain your pool. You will need small amount of chlorine and other chemicals to keep your pool sanitized. I hope dbrentz will realize just turning off the system and start using chlorine or just use chlorine-free alternative chemicals will make his life a lot easier. At least you know what works, not keep fighting what doesn't work. So you keep trying alternatives to supplement your expensive copper system. It's almost like doubling down when you're loosing on a gambling table. At some point, we crash and reality hits.
The pool chemical testing also seems inadequate; we need a simple way to test for bacteria and algae not levels of copper or chlorine. Anyway, I'm going off track.

Please take the experience from me(newpoolownerny) and dbrentz as true owner experience not scientific advertisements that others are showing as how great this copper system is. Phil Francisco from CLfree specifically said to me that people will not believe me. He told me to go ahead and tell of your experience. "No one will believe you." I'm only one person against all the scientic data and all the great colorful websites that says chlorine is bad and copper is good.

I need to tell my story so that these companies, CLfree, Chlorine Free USA, and ECOsmarte, that sell copper based systems does not scam others like me. As a true owner, I could only tell you of my experience. No scientific data just telling you what I actually experienced. I tried the copper system for about two weeks last season and about two weeks this season. I was able to tell in this short time that copper based system does not work. It does not control algae as advertised. I wasn't able to tell how much copper there was in the pool. When I put chlorine shock and tablets all the problems disappeared. This is my first full week without CLfree system and using Chlorine Only. No algae, pool looks and feels great. Robot can climbs the walls, filter pumps all day long, no more running the pump 24/7. Although I really wanted the copper based system to work; it did not work for me. Chlorine worked as expected.

CLfree, Chlorine Free USA, ECOsmarte prey up on the people wanting better things for their children (who doesn't?) and the lack of true owner experiences online. They will have you install the system, check for different items in the pool until the time is up to return the product. I guess I would have been part of this scam by keeping things quiet and just use this copper system in conjunction with other chemicals and say "yes it kind of works with a lot of work". I refuse to be part of this scam. Like I said above, I no longer want to be the emperor in the fable Emperors new clothes. I can no longer keep the facade of copper system actually sanitizing my pool.

Copper based pool sanitation does not work. It's a scam to take your hard earn money by great marketing and prey upon your nature to nurture your children.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I have always told my customers to throw their pocket change in the strainer basket when they clean it. Ionization
can help. I've heard the stories about the water tanks in the covered wagons with coins in them and why wishing wells are so clean and understand how heavy metals kill things. I have seen plaster stained from ionizers and witnessed the way they have been marketed over the years.

Spare change is a good way to iononize.


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SCAM: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I think renovxpt has the right idea. I won't argue that spare change will ionize the water. I believe that these copper ionization systems has about the same effect and the same results as throwing spare change into your skimmer basket. I spent $2195 for my Clfree system. You could save yourself $2190, by throwing in $5 worth of change into your skimmer basket. But just as I'm sure renovxpt would not recommend spare change as your only method of pool sanitation, do not expect these copper ionization systems to work wonders on their own.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

newpoolownerny, If you had only known! you could have treated your pool with gold and made a nice profit.


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SCAM: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Rereading this blog pberman and dbrentz are also true owners of copper ionization systems. pberman's experience showed copper system can not handle algae, which was the same problem I had. I also couldn't tell if the copper was actually killing bateria because it was very difficult to tell the level of copper in the pool. I didn't notice the blue staining yet but my pool's liner is blue. Three different owners with the same bad experience. I'm thinking class-action.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Check out this inexpensive alternative. Combine it with a chlorinator and you will be good. www.waterquality.net

Here is a link that might be useful: UltraPure Ozone


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scam: ecosmarte system, clfree, chlorine free usa...can anyone pr

To follow up on my scam reference above, I wanted to tell you why I referenced the fable Emperor's new clothes. About the 2 weeks, when I reopened the pool for this season. I had the pump running 24hours by 14 days. When I couldn't tell how much copper there was in the pool. When I worked really hard to scrub the algae off the walls. I had a lot of self doubt as to maybe I'm not using this system correctly. However, the pool looked clean.
So, I had my kids and his friends over to use the pool. When the kids went in, they said it smells yucky, and its slimy. They told me I should clean the pool. They came right back out. Just like in the story, Emperor's new clothes when the kid told the emperor he had no clothes on.
After this incident is when I tried the chlorine shock and chlorine tablets, which, as expected, cleaned the pool to my kids standards.

I guess as an adult we can get fooled by mountains of scientific data and all the colorful web pages that show how great the copper ionization system and how bad the chlorine is. In the end, its the kid test that that showed me, I was getting fooled by the false advertisements of copper ionization systems.

I say again, copper ionization does not keep your pool clean. It's a scam to take your hard earned money. Do not buy CLfree, Chlorine Free USA or any other copper ionization systems.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I have had my Ebay account searching for Ecosmarte systems as well as the others for well over a year. Over the past year I think there has been only 3 used systems for sale. One was from a guy who had a small exercise pool in his basement. He finished his therapy and both the pool and the Ecosmarte system were for sale. The second was from a guy who sold his house and the new owners did not want the system. I don't remember why the other was being sold.

With this said all of the thousands of us each year who were supposedly scammed by the Copper/Oxygen systems sure do have a lot of morals and we don't have thousands of these systems on Ebay trying to reclaim part of our money. So for all of us out there with Copper/Oxygen systems that dont work well and are just lying around put them up for sale on Ebay and show the world once and for all that the systems dont work.

I will keep track of all the used systems for sale and keep score.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

There are tens of thousands of old UV ozone systems, ionizers, Orp controllers, and salt systems that hang on the wall of pool sheds that never make it to the dump, or eBay. I would bet a good majority of these systems are not installed by the end user (as most pool equipment is) that are no longer in use.

Maybe most people have a conscience when it comes to ripping people off by selling something they felt scammed on.

Oddly enough I couldn't find any used ozonators, but there is a ecosmarte... So by your logic does that mean that they (ozonators) are better?


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Interesting readings, but not surprising coming from people who make their life servicing pools and selling chemicals: "Anything else than chlorine is SCAM". now we know who the scammers are, and don't need this blog any longer.
I should have understood earlier and not tried to relate my personal experience with an EcoSmarte system that works for me.
No wonder only a few EcoSmarte owners post on this blog - it is owned by the Chlorine industry, and anybody who dares differing is called a scammer.
In the mean time, I will enjoy my chlorine-free pool, with no red eyes, once a month pH check, no pool guy, no burning sinuses, no weekly maintenance, no algaecides, bromine, chloride and other chemical soup. Enjoy your soup and your biased blog.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Nice try spammers. Don't try to turn this around on people complaining about your products.

Our company makes about $1,500.00 a year selling chlorine. If Ecosmarte were a viable solution, we could almost make that off 1-2 units.

Where did all of these people w/ their anecdotal stories and references come from posting within 2 days, but I never see the contributing to any other forum. Are they lurking or have an alert every time a post is added to this thread?

Seriously everyone of their posts sounds like they are reading right from the brochure. Do you really think that we wont see through it?


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

2 gallons of acid in a plaster pool in 2 months is nothing abnormal if the pool is cement basted.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

RACKET

I need to clarify. I am still using 2 gallons PER WEEK after 2 month of having the system installed. This seems like too much acid to me.

ORGANIC PAULO

I checked the amperage on the oxygen plates. With the copper wires still connected to the cell and I was getting .85 amps on the oxygen plates and .13 on neutral leg of the copper plates. When I removed both wires from the copper plates the amperage went up to .97 amps on the oxygen. I am now keeping my copper wire removed unless I need to increase the copper. I figure if more amps are going through the plates more oxygen and hydrogen are being produced.

Both wires to the copper need to be removed because the polarity changes every 1-1/2 minutes and the hot/neutral legs reverse.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

This blog began over 2 years ago; went from
Good experience/ bad experience to
Chlorine vs Copper to
Spam vs Legit Owners vs Identity Theft vs ITS A SCAM conspiracy theory
Honestly after reading the whole thing through, I feel like it was a complete waste of time. I've had my ECOsmarte pool for an entire year.. live in washington and we could afford to heat it throughout the winter and so we did. It was an oversized bathtub(30,000ish gal) tiled, and a concrete base. Cleanest pool any of my friends or relatives had ever seen. Never once was it 'slimy' or bad smelling.

Never cleaned the copper plates, never added much acid, only checked the pool once a month. Pool was stable as they get, was a dream. Pool was as clear as could be throughout the first summer, first winter, second summer till now.

I(the owner's son) had a huge party and large amounts of beer were spilt into the pool, etc. Parents & my 5siblings returned home and it soon 'Algae Bloomed' in the following 2 days. Its been a week since and i've been surfing around trying to find the best solution to fix it. As I am responsible for the upkeep of the pool. I cheated my way through chemistry so don't quiz me on that. I've measured the PH and Hardness and added the correct solutions, yet its still as green and the border on the bottom of the page.

Ordered $100 in algaecide.. I read about people shocking the glass filter, might try that next as I have never even opened it or attempted to clean it. It worked a whole year straight(unlike the above who only opened it for a few summers) without even a hint of algae/bacteria.

Chlorine isn't an option for most of the readers, so stop trying to sell it. Having blonde sisters, their sensitive hair has turned green on several occassions after swimming in chlorine pools. After the majority of their hair fell out, its not worth the risk.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

EDPA: thanks for the tips regarding the electrodes - I will follow them

Acid in the pool: is it a plaster pool? Mine was plaster that I converted to epoxy after over 50 years of good service. DIY job - first coats 5 years ago, then 1 1/2 years ago before converting to EcoSmarte. I had to add 1/2 Gal acid every 2 weeks initially after converting, then 1/2 gallon every three, then every month. Strangely, I have not added any since last winter, and the pH is always at the bottom of the red dye scale (6.8). I must say that we have not used the pool much yet this year, and it is always covered with a solar blanket. I will bring a sample to the pool supply store to measure pH more precisely and see if I need to add soda ash (if it is lower than 6.8)

NICKKON: algae bloom: as usual, first check the basics: pH under 7.0 and copper between .5 and .7 ppm (I think - check the booklet). The copper will help keeping the algae in check. Then let the pool circulate on Oxidize for several days until it clears up. You don't have to spend $100 on algeacide; one bottle of concentrate at $25 should do it. You can also try non-chlorine pool shock oxidizer if you want to accelerate the process (3-4 potassium mono persulfate-1lb bags, spread with the pump off overnight). Use your vacuum pool cleaner or brush and vacuum the pool.
Is your filter clean? Back pressure OK? Once the water is clear, you may want to replace the DE or clean your filter, because this algae bloom is producing a ton of organic matter. I have never checked for phosphate in my pool, may be you can ask you pool supply store to check. Phosphate is a great fertilizer, you don't want it in your pool. There is a pool product that captures it.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

NICKKON

I have had a pool for five years. Last year while still on Chlorine I had Algae problems most of the year. I was at several stores for help. In that time I was never told much about the proper use of Algaecide. Recently after reading other sites I found more information on it.
Poly 60, the only type you can use with Ecosmarte, does not actually stay in the pool very long. It must be put in the water in morning on a sunny day when the Algae is most actively growing and reproducing. The Algae feeds on the Poly, which in turn kills the Algae. I never heard this before and it is not on any bottle I have ever had but it does make sense. I knew it did not stay in the pool long but I did not know that the algae have to be actively feeding for it to work.

I have found that putting the vac in helps a lot Especially with Ecosmarte. I have an irregular shaped pool so it is hard to get good circulation everywhere. I am now using an Aquabot Turbo T-Jet. I also have an Aquabot Turbo and a RayVac. The Aquabots pumps almost 5000 gallons per hour so the do a great job of circulating the water. This gets the copper moving around and helps kill the Algae plus it claims to filter down to 2 microns, which will collect the Algae.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

" Having blonde sisters, their sensitive hair has turned green on several occassions after swimming in chlorine pools."

I have a problem with that for one reason. The only thing that will turn your hair green is copper. If there is no copper you will not have green hair. To say that ecosmarte solves that problem is absurd, because the foundation of the system is copper.

I have had 3 clients where other companies have installed Ecosmarte, and every one of them has gotten away from it. Now to be fair, it could be due to improper implementation of the system, but I have yet to see one that is still operating.

Nickkon what part of Washington are you in?


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I see this debate has gone on a while, and have learned a lot.

I would like to put my experience in since I have both sides to represent.

Both I and a friend put in the ecosmarte system. My friend has a fiberglass resurfaced pool. He has had no problems with algae but has had a bit of dark staining (not bad though) in the two years that he has had it. The water is always clear when we go over, and I asked him how much acid he uses and he said he hasn't added acid in about 6 months!!!!

I have a decaying plaster pool and could not get the system to work for me. My PH rises every 3-4 days and I have had constant algae problems(my pool is green now) I was having to add acid every 2-3 days and I couldn't keep my PH right.

I'm thinking the problem is with the plaster being more reactive than fiberglass. I have to resurface my pool anyway and am planning on going with something less reactive, and maybe a automatic PH controller with CO2 or acid, and I want to give the ecosmarte another try. My friends water is sooooo nice!!!!


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Anyone can tell EcoSmart system cost? Thank you


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

That is up to the dealer. A dealer I used to work for got over $7000 for a full system and $5000 without the CO2 control. That's just the initial outlay.

The copper bars will eventually be dissolved and need to be replaced.

The only residual in the pool when the pump is off is copper. This may be fine for algae but if and when anything gets in there, it will gladly reproduce.

Depending on the pool's turnover rate, it will take a long time for all the water to have passed by the cell. This is particularly troublesome when the system is replenishing the copper level. That means the oxidization process that the titanium plates perform is off. While this isn't frequent, it is another opportunity for bio-badies to build and reproduce. Anything on the walls, except algae is always free to grow.

Guessing how much CO2 to set the controller to release is always a hassle. Getting the CO2 tank replenished is a chore.

This think likes a lot of calcium in the water, 400 ppm! Let the pH creep up and scale forms.

I still don't like or trust this system.

Scott


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

So Scott, which system do you like?


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I would also submit that you might want to msg geek-grannie there. When it comes to living with sensitive skin, she has it as sensitive as it can be and has no issues with BBB.

Scott


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Scott,

The copper is maintained at a .4-.7 ppm in the water. The copper is your residual protection. The DO or dissolved oxygen can be tested and shown as increased in the main pool. At 40-80 grams per minute inline the water will pass by the chamber 1-1/2 times per day if the pool runs the recommended 6-12 hours. This will be plenty of time to be exposed to the oxygen. The copper is very stable in the water and on average is maintained by activation the copper plates once per week.
I just have a hard time believing you have spent more than 5 minutes studying how this technology really works. We offer 6 day per week toll free support for both pool professional or general consumers. We would be more than happy educating you on how our system works. With the east coast one of our stronger areas you could also go to www.ecosmarte.com and find a pool professional with experience installing and operating our system. I�m not sure what 'dealer' you worked with in the past but I do not have anyone selling the product at that price.
The copper will need to be replaced every 4-7 years at a cost of $150.
With thousands of sites running CO2 if you make an effort to contact us we can help take the guess work out of how many minutes per day it needs to run.
Jeremy

Here is a link that might be useful: ECOsmarte


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Take your snake oil somewhere else. Your product is dangerous to the health of people.

Copper acts as an algaecide. It's not algae that scares me. It's infections and viruses and bacteria, especially those that breed faster than any metal in the water can kill them.

Copper can stain. Copper will stain when someone gets lazy with their chem testing or forgets to turn off the ionize portion and switch it back to oxidize.

The pH can and does rise when the CO2 tank goes empty and the home owner doesn't check. Getting CO2 is a PITA.

It can take up to 5 turns of a pool's volume to oxidize a contaminant. With today's use of variable speed pumps rapidly ramping up, that can translate into days because of the slower turnover times. With chlorine, it's still less than a minute for the vast majority of thing to be killed or oxidized.

You "gladly" provide that support because you are paid to. Your product is not that complicated. It just isn't the next big thing. In fact, you can't sell your product in Australia because they banned it and others like it because they are snake oil, loaded with great sounding benefits that aren't backed by science.

If I had admin authorization, I would ban you, just as you have been banned at Trouble Free Pools and The Pool And Spa Forums.

The contributors here do it for free. That makes a big difference in motive. We do it for the betterment of the industry's reputation to which we belong.

I have no reason to lie. I keep my side of the street clean.

Scott


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

A few additional notes:

Copper has little effect blood and fecal born bio-baddies ((e.g. Escherichia coli, Enterococcus faecalis,
Staphylococcus aureus, bifidobacterium bifidum, Lactobacillus).

While variable speed pumps may slow the flow past the titanium plates when in oxidize mode which might increase the kill rate some, their reproductive rate in the pool will far exceed the kill rate of the water passing through, leaving them to reproduce essentially unchecked.

For $150, you two copper plates, which fit in your cell (it's about the size of a salt cell) are a bargain(?) when copper is trading at about $4.50/lb. .

Should any chlorine be used in the pool, such as when an algae bloom occurs (it can happen for what ever reason), salts will be left behind. Salts and electrified titanium plates is performing electrolysis, just like a salt cell except there is nothing to protect the titanium plates. Enough salt and the copper is dissolved from the plates and excess copper in the water can result staining of the pool, deck and the fair haired. A teen might think green hair is cool but I doubt my wife would. This is why MPS, aka non-chlorine shock, is the recommended product for periodic "shocking" but it is an oxidizer, not a sanitizer.

How many commercial swimming facilities in the US, Canada, or Australia are using you product? Not one. Why is that? It seems fairly obvious.

The dealers that sell these products are either unaware of the facts or don't care, neither of which are people I want in the industry but exist none the less and so I and this forum's regular contributors will continue to counter the negative impacts created by the ignorant or greed driven that can give our industry a bad name.

Scott


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Long, lively, and occasionally interesting thread.

Ionizations systems have been around a long time and have worked in closed systems with some effectiveness. Agriculture uses ionization in some areas to help water penetration. Not sure how they measure it's effectiveness.
I, too, would like to get away without using chlorine. I'm concerned that systems such as CLFREE used on open bodies of water will not be able to keep up with load levels in the pool. I recently ordered their system to see how their claims pan out.

My goal in doing so is the same as trying salt systems, I try to cause failure to the system by doing some of the same goofy things my customers used to do such as raising the ph and watching calcium carbonate flakes appear with a salt system in place. It's pretty easy to cause these systems to fail and still keep the water clear.

Unfortunately, it only takes a little truth to sell a product.

I don't like salt systems, but I have always tried to present the pros/cons and let the customer decide how to spend their money.

While ionization/oxidation systems sound pretty entising, I'm highly skeptical because of the cure-all sales pitch and lack of track record in the industry. I will try to stay open minded until I do my own research.

The pool industry hasn't had a lot of "this is the best thing since sliced bread" moments in the past 40 years. The variable speed pump is the nearest thing that I can think of that has truly made an impact on the industry. Because copper based systems have been around in one form or another for years, I doubt they will ever have a large impact in the industry.

Golfgeek axiom, "there is no substitute for good filtration".


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

golfgeek,

If your pool is salted, don't put it on. It will act as a low producing salt cell would except the titanium plates they have, because they are not coated with ruthenium oxide, I expect the plates would not last long and the chlorine that would be produced would attack the copper plates, raising your copper level.

Scott


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

"The pool industry hasn't had a lot of "this is the best thing since sliced bread" moments in the past 40 years. "

Ultraviolet fits the bill nicely. While not being chlorine free, it allows you to run at much lower levels, while doing a great job of dechloriminazation (new word?"

I have first hand seen ultraviolet systems do wonders for problematic pools.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Thanks Scott. Aware of this and I haven't used salt since I replastered a few years ago.

Racket...I've used some ultraviolet on new pools, as well as ozone, but have not been particularly impressed. Being from the old school I like to be able to test for something. It doesn't appear that I can do that with any of these products with any certainty. I'll go back and look at some of the Ultraviolet pools I've put in. Maybe I missed something. Thanks.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Ultraviolet needs to be sized properly in order to work properly.

I have noticed clear water, 1/2 or better less chlorine consumption, and no chloramine.

We put 200W units on flow rates up 20 110GPM, and get sterilized water from them.

Putting a 57watt-80w delta from scp just isnt going to cut it. The bulbs need to be replaced ever 14 months of UV operation.

Usually with UV you can eliminate all of the ancillary that many use are never needed.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

sorry about the typos (iPhone)

Flow rates up to 110gpm

eliminate all of the ancillary chemicals that many use.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

CLFree and Eco-Smarte are very similar.
Risks are, potential is high is for person to person transfers, copper stains that don't judt include the pool and surfaces, fair haired can become green tinted, copper levels in excess of EPA and FDA safe levels, well, that's enough I suppose. Please don't allow swimmers in during the experiment.

Scott


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Racket...Used several UV-254 units. Good flow rates and customers haven't complained. Good bulb life so far.
I just can't get a feel for what it is really doing without some kind of measurement.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

UV prevents biologicals from being able to reproduce by irradiating the DNA. It doesn't kill per se but some bio-badies reproduce pretty quickly so if they can't reproduce, it's a lighter workload. This makes for less work for the FC, keeping CC from forming due to the bio-baddie load. It's an augmentation device, IMHO.

Scott


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

Scott...My point exactly, UV, Ozone, Nature2, Ecosmarte, CLFREE are all augmentation devices or suppliments to Chlorine. Chlorine is easy to measure and the others aren't. People who take care of their pools rarely keep a .5 ppm or 1 ppm in the pool on a regular basis so it's hard to distinguish cost savings. For ease of maintenance in the summer, here in CA it's likely that people will use sticks or pucks in the skimmer or floaters in the pool. Most times I see pools well over 3 ppm and higher. Not much savings when a $1500-5000 augmentaion device is added. Just saying the industry needs these augmentation devices to be as easily measureable as chlorine.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

The problem is that we are stuck on chlorine to be the end all to be all.

"I just can't get a feel for what it is really doing without some kind of measurement."

You can measure it in the quality of water. It's a much easier sale on problem pools, because they fix the problems.

I think you are afraid to consider chlorine as the supplementary sanitizer. The UV system will handle a bulk of the bacteria load, while chlorine will supplement it by killing bacteria in, and on the vessel..

I just Put a 400W on a 200gpm swim club pool. Their filtration system is really undersized for their bather load even though they have a 5 hour turnover.

2 things happened within a week of installation..

1. The water was incredibly clear.
2. They had to add 70% less chlorine.

Not just do they have to add less chlorine, but all of the other chemicals they were regularly using to counteract the addition of chlorine goes way down as well.

Their return on investment will be tough to cover, but they can provide a much better product for their clients.

Sometimes we lose sight of the quality of the product when it comes to chemistry and mechanics. Sure the client doesn't need $30 a SQFT tile, or pebble tech, but they do it to improve quality ( or in some cases aesthetics).

About using tabs to chlorinate. If you add 1/2 the tabs you can maintain the same ppm as with having no UV. 1/2 the tabs means 1/2 the CYA. 1/2 the CYA means less draining it required, less draining required = less money spent maintaining the pool.

There are hidden ways that UV can save money, and some appear every time I implement a system.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

CL-Free is not a supplementary device.

I did find an article in Pool and Spa News that might have some answers to quantify UV:

FWIW, FC levels should be maintained as a percentage of CYA levels. When using tabs or manually adding liquid chlorine or bleach, keep the FC level at 8% of the CYA level. When using a salt cell, a 5% level is usually sufficient.

As racket mentioned, tabs will add CYA. In the Spring when I open, my CYA is very low in my pool due to the dilution of the Fall, Winter, and early Spring precipitation. I only need 4 tabs when I start the season but need up to 8 by the end of the season.

I will change to either a cell or, when it gets released, a liquid fed IntelliChem pH/ORP system. It will add liquid chlorine and MA as needed.

While pH and ORP sensors can be of significant help in regulating, they is indirect and regular testing with a quality kit should be continued.

The use of liquid chlorine and MA is the most cost effective way to add FC to a pool on a regular basis I know.
Using a controller isn't necessarily, but I like my toys.

Scott

Here is a link that might be useful: P&S News article


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

If I had to choose I'd put UV on a pool before a pH/ORP feeder.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I had one of these systems installed in Spring 10 at a cost in the lower 5 figures. My pool is fairly large, so it required two units. The results were disappointing and quite expensive. No matter how carefully I maintained water chemistery it was fairly common to awake to find the pool a milky color which required more chemicals and time to clear up. The cost of CO2, chemicals and acid was greater than had been the cost of a simple chlorine system. Support from the dealer was spotty and his charges for chemicals about twice what other suppliers charged.

I estimate the sad little experience cost me something north of $14K, plus hours of frustration. Oh, on inquiry the dealer indicated that the equipment has no salvage value after one short summer. I can certainly believe that.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

We successfully changed over to a "Superior Aqua" copper ionization/ozone unit over six years ago in our inground pool (http://www.superioraqua.com/). We do shock the pool once a week in the north Houston, TX area, yet with much less shock than before the chlorineless unit.
Overall cost of yearly maintenance has been less than before and the pool equipment is anticipated to last longer.


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

1) While the copper ions help to prevent algae, the kill time is longer than the reproduction time. It does next to nothing for viruses and bacteria.

2) How are you controlling the copper level? The higher the level, the greater the chance for green stain staining on decking, pool surfaces, swim suits, and fair hair.

3) Ozone is a great oxidizer that will break down organics such as skin oils, sweat, lotions, etc... but it also dries out plastics. Your equipment will not last longer. It also does next to nothing against pathogens in the main body of water.

4) What are you using to shock the pool with?

5) What is your bather load?

Why do you suppose the EPA has certified three sanitizers, chlorine, bromine, and biguanide. for commercial pools even though these ionizers have been around so long? Could it be a conspiracy or because the three do whats needed to keep people that are swimming, safe?

I realize that this forum concentrates on residential pools and that residential systems are free to do as they wish for the most part but to not heed what has become standard and accepted practice for sanitation needs puts people at risk.

To those that suggest chlorine and/or bromine are dangerous, let me remind you that ozone is too. All are capable of, if you walk into a seal room filled with either in high concentrations, melting the skin off your bones. The levels used in normally operated pools are not hazardous to people or pets.

To those that claim allergies to chlorine or a high level of sensitivity, I would submit that letting pathogens entering the water from a person with a skin infection, cold virus, bird poop, etc... is a more a risk to you if the alternatives are used. I have yet to meet someone that has these sensitivities, have an issue in a properly maintained pool.

Scott


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

I had to start this again..........:-)

If you wanted to kill everything in the pool, just buy a 50# bag of copper sulfate.

Add about 2 teaspoons per 30,000 gallons (guestimate) and you will never have to worry about algae again. Will also take care of any fish you might have swimming around.

Love this forum.....:-)


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RE: EcoSmarte System...can anyone provide a reference?

What are you going to do about any water born infections, viruses, germs, etc.? Algae is the least of the concerns.

Scott


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