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Feedback on CL Free Water System

Posted by ginahoust (My Page) on
Wed, Apr 7, 10 at 19:31

We're getting our last couple bids on our pool and Aquascapes in Tomball, TX is offering a CL Free water system instead of salt or chlorine. Any thoughts or experience with these I'd love to hear.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Run away. Run Fast. Don't look back. They are unsafe, unsanitary, expensive and anyone that sells them should not be trusted. The sellers have no morals or concerns for the safety of their clients and their guests.

Chlorine pools, properly cared for, are sanitary pools. No viruses, no germs, wastes are oxidzed in a timely fashion, and almost always crystal clear. Salt pools are chlorine pools.

The EPA has certified three sanitizers for pool use. They are chlorine, bromine and bianguinide(sp). Bromine is expensive to use. Bianguinide works for a few years and then gives people fits, usually. Chlorine is the most economical and most effective.

I have significant experiences with non-chlorine ionizers. They don't protect the main body of water, inject metals such as copper and/or silver, and still need balancing chemicals.

They leave no residual sanitizer in the pool, giving bio-baddies the opportunity to get a foot hold and multiply, create staining issues, and take more work than a chlorine pool.

Run from them! Run from the dealer. Don't look back.

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

What is your opinion of ionizers or UV as a method to reduce the amount of Chlorine that is required as a sanitizer rather than replace it?


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

This is only my opinion. The fact that others may feel the same or disagree is to be expected.

Nothing reduces the amount of free chlorine in a pool needed to maintain sanitary conditions.

Ionizers add metals. Copper and silver have long kill times, often longer than the reproduction cycle. They offer you the opportunity to spend money on special cartridges, greatly increase the chances for metal stains, etc... I don't like metals in solution in a pool. Again, another high profit item you don't need.

UV and ozone can only augment. They are effective at adding an extra kill/oxidizing method but chlorine is already doing that so why bother? The system must be running for them to work and since it takes about 4 turns of the pool to get all the water to pass and leaves no residuals in the pool, are not needed in residential pools. Wasted money to the buyer and high margin profits for the seller.

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Thanks Scott - anyone else?


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Scott is telling you what virtually every state in the USA requires for commercial pools. In the residential market you could swim in a cesspool as far as I know - my town has NO water quality standard that a home owner must meet before inviting the neighbors over for a dip.

The metal/ozone/UV systems can allow for lower chlorine usage, but not "free". However, you are assuming more risk for any pool user since the added systems don't generally kill as fast as sufficient chlorine. Ozone/UV: germs have to pass by the ozone or UV before getting killed, and the metals kill at a slower pace than chlorine, and are typically more suited to relatively slow moving and closed water systems like in a drinking water system (vice the open to the sky pool environment).

So, my bottom line - you're gonna have some chlorine (or bromine or bacaquil - spelling?) anyway, why add complexity and cost? Add one reader to Scott's side of the equation.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Commercial rules are more stringent and costly in my book. Similar principles though. I personally don't play in the commercial market, residential only.

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Scott,

What are your credentials? Do you have a science or chemical engineering background, or degree in water chemistry? If not, you obviously do not know what you are talking about.

You know nothing about ionization or oxidation and we would gladly challenge to a debate but you are like many others who stay ignorant and cling to a deadly chemical (chlorine) because they do not know anything about science and water quality.
Do you even know the history of chlorine?
If not I would be glad to give you a lesson.

Find out more about the way our systems work and maybe your eyes will open.
Go to our website and stop being ignorant. www.chlorinefreeusa.com.
Do your diligence before you advise someone.

This is a quote directly from the EPA:

EPA approves copper as an antimicrobial agent
The EPA approves copper as an antimicrobial agent to control deadly infections. To quote the EPA, "For the first time, copper systems can be marketed legally in U.S. using public health claims".
The Environmental Protection Agency by announcing this major breakthrough of approving copper in protecting public health and playing a key role in preventing infections was the result of extensive real world testing. Rigorous analysis by independent lab and hospital testing showed elimination of bacterial, fungal and viral pathogens within minutes. The list includes hospital superbugs (MRSA Methicillin-Resistant Staphylococcus aureus), E. coli, streptococcus, fungi, influenza virus, bird flu, VRE (Vancomycin-resistant Enterococci), Acinetobacter baumanni, Clostridium difficile, molds, (Aspergillus niger), Legionella pneumophila. By using copper systems, we can help prevent over 2 million infections, save over 100,000 lives and the estimated $30 billion dollars in overall health care costs.
The variety of applications for our equipment is far ranging. It includes pools, spas, fountains, HVAC equipment, cooling towers, hospitals, food and potable water systems. We see the successful use of our ionization systems helping to solve the major problems facing our most vitally important natural resources, air and water, the source of life. By preventing and combating growth in water treatment systems, our equipment will play a major role in non-toxic environmentally friendly methods of insuring the public health in both public and private spaces.
The following is a synopsis of medical, and scientific professional quotes on the effectiveness of this technology.
Routine Surveillance and Electronic Liquid Purification Systems Prevent Outbreaks "The continued control of legionella by electronic ionization is due to the penetration of the copper ions into the biofilms of the water distribution system killing the organisms. Cu/Ag ionization systems have proven to be the most effective method for control of legionella in water distribution systems. (Infection Control Today 2000)

Infectious Control Hospital Epidemiology Study Dr. Stout Ph.D., Dr. Yu, M.D.
(Based on a five to eleven year field studies of 16 hospitals) Copper ionization is now the only disinfection modality to have fulfilled all four evaluation criteria. Hospital-Acquired legionnaires disease can be prevented by disinfection of hospital water systems. No cases of hospital-acquired legionnaires disease have occurred any hospital since 1995.

In an overall subjective appraisal by infection control practitioners, most rated the systems as excellent, based on results of environmental cultures and on the incidence of hospital-acquired legionnaires disease. Legionella in Hospital water Systems - (Prevention and Control Measures Conference Report 2004)

In addition to the Copper ion system, we also use the Oxidation method to "Burn up" the dead organic material killed by the copper.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Scott, Do you feel setup?

Chlorinefree. What about other issues, such as high PH causing copper to fall out, ect.

My sister in law has been maintaining a large pool for a year now with a copper ion system. She has not had to add any type of chlorine which suprised her and me. She installed two systems because of size of pool. Copper rods last about 6 months x 2 sets at $250 each plus. She also added a ph monitor and pump for around $2500. Pool still needs constant monitoring to keep copper level right.

Is it worth it? You make the call.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

To just-a-pb, not to sweat. He's just another spin doctor. He has his company/product focused agenda and I have my consumer focused agenda.

To chlorinefreeusa,

I am a CPO with many years of real world, in the field experience. I am not a doctorate or a chemist, just a damn good technician who has fixed more pools than you have installs. I am pretty familiar with how your systems and Eco-Smarte's systems work.

You asked what are my credentials. I answered. What are you credentials?

Tell me, what are the kill times in the pool for the bugs you mentioned using copper? Compare it to chlorine.

Tell me, what happens when the CO2 tank runs out and the pH rises? Scale and copper stains. What's a CO2 tank weigh? Will your wife carry it to the car to the refill store? How far is the consumer willing to travel to get the tank(s) refilled? How much is it?

CO2 tends to gas off fairly quickly. Why not use muriatic? Granted MA, when handled carelessly, is dangerous, but it does last a heck of a lot longer and is easier to obtain, cheaper to use, and when handled properly and with common sense, easier to use.

Is your system UL approved?

Those are pretty cheap cell connector wires.

Will the copper that is residual in the pool oxidize anything? No? So I have to wait for up to 4 turns of the pool volume to pass the cell to oxidize the body waste products like sweat, skin oils and lotions, urine, ammonia, etc.... assuming the system is in it's oxidize mode as opposed to the ionize mode that injects more copper.

There is nothing more cost effective for the residential consumer for pool sanitation than chlorine. If I have a party and heavy bather load in my pool, a $2.50 bottle of Clorox to boost my chlorine residual works just fine, thank you. I can get it anywhere. If I need parts for you equipment, I have to go to you. I don't like single source solutions. No competition keeping costs in check.

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Mr Chlorinefreeusa,
I note that you did not address me, but as a scientist I think I take exception to your methodology of presenting your case. Caveat: No I am not a practicing chemist, but I do have a PhD in Physics and have taken some classes that allow me to be at least minimally conversant on the subject of chemistry.

My issue is concerned with two logical aspects of your reply:
1) the Ad hominem fallacy - you attempt to advance your argument by resorting to impugn Scott's abilities/character; when he clearly stated he was expressing an opinion; and
2) the Ad verecundiam fallacy - you attempt to further your argument by citation of a reference by Dr Stout (concerning drinking and ice water bacterial control in a hospital setting) as an authority of what should be used in a swimming pool.

I would expect my opinion of the issue is clear and so I will not address other issues in your reply to this topic. Thank you for your time & attention.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

STATEMENT: To just-a-pb, not to sweat. He's just another spin doctor. He has his company/product focused agenda and I have my consumer focused agenda.

ANSWER: First of all we have no agenda. We are a Health Company located out of Phoenix AZ,
We do apologize for coming down hard on you. But we believe that if you would have taken the time to review our products or simply call us, you may have, at least been made aware of something new in the treatment of pool chemistry.

STATEMENT: I am a CPO with many years of real world, in the field experience. I am not a doctorate or a chemist, just a damn good technician who has fixed more pools than you have installs. I am pretty familiar with how your systems and Eco-Smarte's systems work.
You asked what are my credentials. I answered. What are you credentials?

ANSWER: The engineers at our Factory have multiple MBA's in water chemistry and degrees in engineering from ASU.
We have been in business since 1999 and have thousands of satisfied clients. Click on this link to see our BBB report.
As you can clearly see, we have never had a complaint or even a dispute.
http://www.bbb.org/central-northern-western-arizona/business-reviews/water-filtration-and-purification-equipment/cl-free-water-systems-in-fountain-hills-az-9002190/
You are NOT familiar with our system as we have a completely different science and technology from ECOsmarte or a simple silver / copper ionizer.

STATEMENT: Tell me, what are the kill times in the pool for the bugs you mentioned using copper? Compare it to chlorine.

ANSWER: Obviously chlorine has a much faster kill rate. Chlorine is much more aggressive and it is also absorbable, which is why you must shock a pool after you get out. You know all the Health problems chlorine has caused, so we do not have to debate this here.
Unlike chlorine, our computers keep a residual of copper ions in the water (between .5 to .7 ppm) all the time. The normal run time of the pool pump, 1 to 2 turn of the pool water, is much more than enough to keep a pool sanitized.
You have missed a very important issue. There are many silver / copper ionizers out there.
Some good, most bad.
The problem with most if not all of these systems is that they either have an uncontrolled release of the copper ions (Ecosmarte) or they do not an Oxidizer and rely on chlorine, bleach or hydrogen peroxide as an oxidizer.
Our system uses a set of Titanium plates which we pass a low voltage DC charge. When the water touches these plates we get a process called hydrolysis.
This is the separation of the water molecule.
The result is an oxygen hydroxyl. The process burns up the dead organic material in a micro second as the water passes over the plates.

STATEMENT: Tell me, what happens when the CO2 tank runs out and the pH rises? Scale and copper stains. What's a CO2 tank weigh? Will your wife carry it to the car to the refill store? How far is the consumer willing to travel to get the tank(s) refilled? How much is it?
ANSWER: We make two different models. With and without Ph management.
Our standard system would require the person who is maintaining the pool to regulate the pH within normal levels.
Our automated system uses C02 the regulate pH down only.
When you mix Co2 with water you get carbonic acid. The carbonic acid would take the place of having to use muriatic acid.
Co2 has been used in the commercial pool industry for almost 15 years.
If the CO2 tank runs out, the same thing happens when the Ph gets to high in a chlorine pool. NO EFFECTIVE sanitation in alkaline water. You know that. The only time you can get Copper stains is if you mix copper and chlorine. Hence the term copper chloride stain. WE DO NOT USE CHLORINE or ANY additional oxidizer. This is what makes us different.
If your wife can carry gallons of acid and have that toxic and dangerous product in your car, she can easily carry an aluminum 35 pound Co2 tank. A 35 pound tank costs aprox $24.50 at .70 cents a pound.

STATEMENT: CO2 tends to gas off fairly quickly. Why not use muriatic? Granted MA, when handled carelessly, is dangerous, but it does last a heck of a lot longer and is easier to obtain, cheaper to use, and when handled properly and with common sense, easier to use.

ANSWER: When the Co2 mixes with water it becomes a liquid. It does not stay as a gas. The Carbonic acid mixes 5 times faster than muriatic acid and was originally developed in the 1940s as a PH stabilizer. Our system has a Ph reader and only injects on demand. Not much waste here.
We have many Dealers and customers who want to use an acid feeder and we do supply the same automated system using a commercial acid pump and tank if it is preferred. We have no problem with acid.

STATEMENT: Is your system UL approved?

ANSWER: Of course our system is UL approved

STATEMENT: Those are pretty cheap cell connector wires.

ANSWER: The cell connectors are all stainless steel and only carry a D.C. charge so how big do they need to be?

STATEMENT: Will the copper that is residual in the pool oxidize anything? No? So I have to wait for up to 4 turns of the pool volume to pass the cell to oxidize the body waste products like sweat, skin oils and lotions, urine, ammonia, etc.... assuming the system is in its oxidize mode as opposed to the ionize mode that injects more copper.

ANSWER: Unlike Ecosmarts system, our system oxidizes and ionizes at the same time.
I think I answered this in the paragraph above.
Copper is NOT an Oxidizer. Maybe this is where we are having the communication problem.
Copper at the rate of .5 to .7 ppm is deadly to viral, bacterial, algae, fungus and mold. This is simple science.
Like I have stated above, we have a completely separate oxidization process just for this application. The titanium plate producing the hydrolysis burns off (Oxidizes) the suntan oils, body fluids, lotions, pee, etc.
Our system is the ONLY system that can oxidize AND ionize at the same time.

STATEMENT: There is nothing more cost effective for the residential consumer for pool sanitation than chlorine. If I have a party and heavy bather load in my pool, a $2.50 bottle of Clorox to boost my chlorine residual works just fine, thank you. I can get it anywhere. If I need parts for you equipment, I have to go to you. I don't like single source solutions. No competition keeping costs in check.

ANSWER: Effective, yes, but chlorine is a non discriminate killer.
This is an article from the AMA on the history of chlorine:

History of Chlorine

Chlorine was discovered in 1774 by Swedish chemist Carl Wilhelm Scheele, who called it, dephlogisticated marine acid and mistakenly thought it contained oxygen. Chlorine was given its current name in 1810 by Sir Humphrey Davy, who insisted that it was in fact an element. Chlorine gas, also known as bertholite, was first used as a weapon against humans in World War I by Germany on April 22nd, 1915 in the Second Battle of Ypres. It was pioneered by a German scientist later to be a Nobel laureate, Fritz Haber. It is alleged that his role in the use of chlorine as a deadly weapon drove his wife to suicide. After its first use, it was utilized by both sides as a chemical weapon. Chlorine became the first killing agent employed during World War I. German chemical conglomerate IG Farben had been producing chlorine as a by-product of their dye manufacturing. In cooperation with Fritz Haber of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Chemistry in Berlin, they developed methods of discharging chlorine gas against an entrenched enemy.
Chlorine is a toxic gas that irritates the respiratory system.

How Chlorine Works
The extent of poisoning caused by chlorine depends on the amount of chlorine a person is exposed to, how the person was exposed, and the length of time of the exposure.
When chlorine gas comes into contact with moist tissues such as the eyes, throat, and lungs, an acid is produced that can damage these tissues.
In its elemental form under standard conditions, it is a pale green gas about 2.5 times as dense as air. It has a disagreeable suffocating odor and is poisonous. Chlorine is a powerful oxidant and is used in bleaching and disinfectants.


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To Ibridges Feedback on CL Free Water System

Dr. Ibridges,

"Ad hominem fallacy" Love the terminology.
"You claim that this man is innocent, but you cannot be trusted since you are a criminal as well."

Mr Scott did not give an informed decision; he attacked a very reputable Dealer and my company.
Unjust and uncalled for without doing any due diligence or research.
As a scientist, you would never have made comments like this without research, so you can see why we would lash out. We were wrong, but it was very upsetting.
We take a persons health very seriously.
Most of your original comments were addressed to commercial applications and ozone / UV and had no bearing on our applications, so we had no answer for you.
Dr Stouts expertise involve all types of water testing, this was the best documented. At the very core of it all, Water is water.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Well, I am glad you had the moxie to respond. I had almost expected you would not. I will answer in line. I will label the as PGNJResponse and we shall see what happens. I regret that this will result in a long post but I think it's fairer that way. If there are future posts, I hope they are cut some.

STATEMENT: To just-a-pb, not to sweat. He's just another spin doctor. He has his company/product focused agenda and I have my consumer focused agenda.

ANSWER: First of all we have no agenda. We are a Health Company located out of Phoenix AZ,
We do apologize for coming down hard on you. But we believe that if you would have taken the time to review our products or simply call us, you may have, at least been made aware of something new in the treatment of pool chemistry.

PGNJResponse: No agenda? You wouldn't be here if you didn't. I asked your, not the staff's, qualifications. As I said before, I am very well versed and feel the system being offer by your employer is wholely inadaquate and inappropriate for keeping a swimming pool sanitary and algae free.

STATEMENT: I am a CPO with many years of real world, in the field experience. I am not a doctorate or a chemist, just a damn good technician who has fixed more pools than you have installs. I am pretty familiar with how your systems and Eco-Smarte's systems work.
You asked what are my credentials. I answered. What are you credentials?

ANSWER: The engineers at our Factory have multiple MBA's in water chemistry and degrees in engineering from ASU.
We have been in business since 1999 and have thousands of satisfied clients. Click on this link to see our BBB report.
As you can clearly see, we have never had a complaint or even a dispute.
http://www.bbb.org/central-northern-western-arizona/business-reviews/water-filtration-and-purification-equipment/cl-free-water-systems-in-fountain-hills-az-9002190/
You are NOT familiar with our system as we have a completely different science and technology from ECOsmarte or a simple silver / copper ionizer.

PGNJResponse: Having personally removed over a dozen combined Chlorine Free and Eco-Smarte systems because homeowners were so frustrated with slime buildups, algae, copper staining issues, futzing with CO2 tanks, etc... BBB in Az. isn't going to do diddly for someone in NJ.

I will repeat what I said before, I am very familiar with your company's system, how it's supposed to work and I also understand why customers become unhappy with it. It is not all that different from an Eco-Smarte system, just a different controller/software.

The difference, as I see them, is like the calculator application on PC vs a Mac, both tell you 1+1=2 but the get there using different code. Both ionize copper, both use titanium plates and DC voltages to form peroxide. Neither system should have salt in solution more than a couple hundred ppm or chlorine would be produced, interfering with the peroxide generation, which like ozone, breaks down rapidly. In case you didn't know it, peroxide is dangerous stuff. If you don't believe me, pour some Baqua-Shock over your hand. Then pour liquid chlorine, either Clorox or 12% from a pool store. Which hand got burned?

STATEMENT: Tell me, what are the kill times in the pool for the bugs you mentioned using copper? Compare it to chlorine.

ANSWER: Obviously chlorine has a much faster kill rate. Chlorine is much more aggressive and it is also absorbable, which is why you must shock a pool after you get out. You know all the Health problems chlorine has caused, so we do not have to debate this here.
Unlike chlorine, our computers keep a residual of copper ions in the water (between .5 to .7 ppm) all the time. The normal run time of the pool pump, 1 to 2 turn of the pool water, is much more than enough to keep a pool sanitized.
You have missed a very important issue. There are many silver / copper ionizers out there.
Some good, most bad.
The problem with most if not all of these systems is that they either have an uncontrolled release of the copper ions (Ecosmarte) or they do not an Oxidizer and rely on chlorine, bleach or hydrogen peroxide as an oxidizer.
Our system uses a set of Titanium plates which we pass a low voltage DC charge. When the water touches these plates we get a process called hydrolysis.
This is the separation of the water molecule.
The result is an oxygen hydroxyl. The process burns up the dead organic material in a micro second as the water passes over the plates.

PGNJResponse: You have no idea about pool chemistry, do you. Do you own a pool? Guess what happens in a salt cell, hydrolysis. We are very familiar with this process.

Yes, chlorine is much faster at killing things in the pool. It doesn't take a lot of it in the water to kill most, over 99% are dead in seconds of contact at 1 ppm of available free chlorine. The higher amounts in most properly cared for pools is to stop algae which has a thicker skin. Oxidizing wastes is another requirement that chlorine will fulfill. Wastes in many forms, be they lotions, sweat, urine, ammonia, fecal (human and animal). Can copper do that? Not that I know of.

How much calcium does your system want in solution?

Tell me what chlorine health problems are you referring to? If you are referring to a chlorine smell, it's spent chlorine and the pool's chems either aren't being monitored and corrected as needed, a big 1/2 hour to test and balance a residential pool per week, if that, or there is something else happening in the pool that needs to be addressed.

Chlorine is absorbable? It's why a pool must be shocked after you get out? I think you went to the Kim Jun Il brainwashing school. Why don't you go to www.troublefreepools.com, go to pool school and then start that conversation with some of the people there? You might actually learn the truth!

We also know here that ionizers that inject copper and silver have similar issues with staining, slow kill times, and oxidation of waste issues. They may supplement but not substitute chlorine. They are a wasted money too, IMHO.

Copper, in small amounts will retard algae. Its kill time for biologicals often exceeds the biologicals reproduction rate so it loses that battle too.

STATEMENT: Tell me, what happens when the CO2 tank runs out and the pH rises? Scale and copper stains. What's a CO2 tank weigh? Will your wife carry it to the car to the refill store? How far is the consumer willing to travel to get the tank(s) refilled? How much is it?
ANSWER: We make two different models. With and without Ph management.
Our standard system would require the person who is maintaining the pool to regulate the pH within normal levels.
Our automated system uses C02 the regulate pH down only.
When you mix Co2 with water you get carbonic acid. The carbonic acid would take the place of having to use muriatic acid.
Co2 has been used in the commercial pool industry for almost 15 years.
If the CO2 tank runs out, the same thing happens when the Ph gets to high in a chlorine pool. NO EFFECTIVE sanitation in alkaline water. You know that. The only time you can get Copper stains is if you mix copper and chlorine. Hence the term copper chloride stain. WE DO NOT USE CHLORINE or ANY additional oxidizer. This is what makes us different.
If your wife can carry gallons of acid and have that toxic and dangerous product in your car, she can easily carry an aluminum 35 pound Co2 tank. A 35 pound tank costs aprox $24.50 at .70 cents a pound.

PGNJResponse: A gallon of MA is about $15, weighs 8 lbs, lasts a 20,000 pool with a salt cell about two to three weeks, longer if they have borates to assist in stabilization. Some folks here have acid tanks and peristaltic pumps to feed it for them. Cost? Bet it's a lot less than than your CO2 feed.

I know what happens when CO2 is injected into water. We have all opened seltzer and soda bottles. CL Free and Eco-Smarte (I love their Hummer's wrap job, BTW, Its such an oxymoron) are the only two residential systems that use CO2 injection that I know of. Residential systems are very different from commercial systems, but you wouldn't know that because your systems are not approved in the US, Europe or Australia for commercial use, are they?

How long does that 35 pound last on a 20,000 gallon pool?

STATEMENT: CO2 tends to gas off fairly quickly. Why not use muriatic? Granted MA, when handled carelessly, is dangerous, but it does last a heck of a lot longer and is easier to obtain, cheaper to use, and when handled properly and with common sense, easier to use.

ANSWER: When the Co2 mixes with water it becomes a liquid. It does not stay as a gas. The Carbonic acid mixes 5 times faster than muriatic acid and was originally developed in the 1940�s as a PH stabilizer. Our system has a Ph reader and only injects on demand. Not much waste here.
We have many Dealers and customers who want to use an acid feeder and we do supply the same automated system using a commercial acid pump and tank if it is preferred. We have no problem with acid.

PGNJResponse: CO2 does not become a liquid, It goes into suspension. It gasses off because it's lighter than water and floats up fairly quickly. It's not lasting drop in pH. The same thing happens when a water feature such as sheer descent is running dragging air in with it.

STATEMENT: Is your system UL approved?

ANSWER: Of course our system is UL approved

PGNJResponse: You have more than one system. Please specify which pool systems.

STATEMENT: Those are pretty cheap cell connector wires.

ANSWER: The cell connectors are all stainless steel and only carry a D.C. charge so how big do they need to be?

PGNJResponse: In climates where pools are winterized, the cell should be brought indoors or it will turn opaque from clear. In order to do that, the wires need to be detached. The thin gauge solid conductor wires need to be removed. They break often. Every salt cell I have worked with has a much more robust cabling solution.

STATEMENT: Will the copper that is residual in the pool oxidize anything? No? So I have to wait for up to 4 turns of the pool volume to pass the cell to oxidize the body waste products like sweat, skin oils and lotions, urine, ammonia, etc.... assuming the system is in its oxidize mode as opposed to the ionize mode that injects more copper.

ANSWER: Unlike Ecosmarts system, our system oxidizes and ionizes at the same time.
I think I answered this in the paragraph above.
Copper is NOT an Oxidizer. Maybe this is where we are having the communication problem.
Copper at the rate of .5 to .7 ppm is deadly to viral, bacterial, algae, fungus and mold. This is simple science.
Like I have stated above, we have a completely separate oxidization process just for this application. The titanium plate producing the hydrolysis burns off (Oxidizes) the suntan oils, body fluids, lotions, pee, etc.
Our system is the ONLY system that can oxidize AND ionize at the same time.

PGNJResponse: OK, so you have a bigger power supply. I still don't see how you can oxidize what's in the pool. As I said earlier, it can take over 4 turns of volume to have gotten all water molecules to pass the cell.

The slow kill times of copper can't prevent person to person transmittal.

STATEMENT: There is nothing more cost effective for the residential consumer for pool sanitation than chlorine. If I have a party and heavy bather load in my pool, a $2.50 bottle of Clorox to boost my chlorine residual works just fine, thank you. I can get it anywhere. If I need parts for you equipment, I have to go to you. I don't like single source solutions. No competition keeping costs in check.

ANSWER: Effective, yes, but chlorine is a non discriminate killer.
This is an article from the AMA on the history of chlorine:

History of Chlorine

Chlorine was discovered in 1774 by Swedish chemist Carl Wilhelm Scheele, who called it, dephlogisticated marine acid and mistakenly thought it contained oxygen. Chlorine was given its current name in 1810 by Sir Humphrey Davy, who insisted that it was in fact an element. Chlorine gas, also known as bertholite, was first used as a weapon against humans in World War I by Germany on April 22nd, 1915 in the Second Battle of Ypres. It was pioneered by a German scientist later to be a Nobel laureate, Fritz Haber. It is alleged that his role in the use of chlorine as a deadly weapon drove his wife to suicide. After its first use, it was utilized by both sides as a chemical weapon. Chlorine became the first killing agent employed during World War I. German chemical conglomerate IG Farben had been producing chlorine as a by-product of their dye manufacturing. In cooperation with Fritz Haber of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Chemistry in Berlin, they developed methods of discharging chlorine gas against an entrenched enemy.
Chlorine is a toxic gas that irritates the respiratory system.

How Chlorine Works
� The extent of poisoning caused by chlorine depends on the amount of chlorine a person is exposed to, how the person was exposed, and the length of time of the exposure.
� When chlorine gas comes into contact with moist tissues such as the eyes, throat, and lungs, an acid is produced that can damage these tissues.
� In its elemental form under standard conditions, it is a pale green gas about 2.5 times as dense as air. It has a disagreeable suffocating odor and is poisonous. Chlorine is a powerful oxidant and is used in bleaching and disinfectants.

PGNJResponse: Can I see a show of hands of people who have been suffocated by a pool's water having 3 ppm, 10ppm, 20 ppm of free chlorine whether it be in hypoclorous acid for or hypoclorite-ion form? Ever seen a terrorist attack a population the pool water with these levels? Get real.

Chlorine in properly maintained pools is not dangerous to one's health but helps ensure that you, your family and friends are swimming in sanitary water and if someone is sick and doesn't know it, that person's ailment is not going to survive passing from one person to the next in a chlorine pool. The sub-minute kill times of chlorine vs. the 40-60 minutes copper takes is what really concerns most respected pool industry people such as my esteemed colleagues here and on other forums I participate on.

After a heavy load, I do raise my chlorine, just as I would expect a "Happy Homeowner" with your company's system would use a few pounds of MPS.

Seriously Sir, you need to get educated in pool chemistry if you want to play in this sandbox. Good luck in your future endeavors.

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Quote:

Mr Scott did not give an informed decision; he attacked a very reputable Dealer and my company.
Unjust and uncalled for without doing any due diligence or research.
As a scientist, you would never have made comments like this without research, so you can see why we would lash out. We were wrong, but it was very upsetting.
We take a person�s health very seriously.
Most of your original comments were addressed to commercial applications and ozone / UV and had no bearing on our applications, so we had no answer for you.
Dr Stouts expertise involve all types of water testing, this was the best documented. At the very core of it all, Water is water.

End Quote:

I don't know who or how the two threads merged.

I attacked nobody. A user posted a request for comment. Based on my experiences, I offered what I feel is true. If CL-Free or the dealer don't like like it, too bad. It one of the things that makes the United States great.

I do know how they work. I also know where they are weak. Been there repeatedly, dealt with it repeatedly. Experience counts.

While water is water, applications for that water do vary. Since this forum focuses on swimming pools and spas, lets stick to that and not clump it together with in the home water from the tap meant for consumption.

When your residual copper levels in the pool are capable of beating the kill time for biologicals and oxidizing wastes as fast as chlorine without staining, when your product line has a more open distribution, and is more cost effective than a chlorine pool, then I might sing a different tune.

What is true is that the kill times of the vast majority of biologicals that occur in pools with copper is over 30 times longer and frequently longer compared to the under a minute kill times for chlorine. That puts people at what I consider to be a significant risk. I think you know it too.

If my opinions create a bump in the road to CL Free and it's dealers towards making a buck, so be it. I volunteer a significant amount of my time here and on another forum. There are people in our industry that screw people over regularly. That bothers me a lot. My activities here, and the other contributors here, helps to counter the slime that has put our livelihood and reputations at risk.

As for the dealer's reputation, given that they are selling your product knowing that the initial cost to the consumer is about twice to four times that of a salt cell equipped pool for a product who's performance is so far behind that of a chlorine based system in sanitizing and oxidizing times and how that increased set of risks can effect a client, their family, and their friends is not someone I would want to do business with. If they didn't know how dramatically behind the performance curve these systems are and are selling them, who is it that didn't do their due diligence? I will still say to the consumer I think they should run.

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Mr Chlorinefreeusa,

Quote: "Most of your original comments were addressed to commercial applications and ozone / UV and had no bearing on our applications, so we had no answer for you.
Dr Stouts expertise involve all types of water testing, this was the best documented. At the very core of it all, Water is water."

Ah, but your examples relate to closed water systems, i.e., drinking water. I would not drink from the average pool, nor would I bathe in a pool of drinking water that had been exposed to other external influences for weeks and months.

Do you have a citation (from a non-partisan source of course) of chlorine free usage that meets public health standards for pool use?


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Wow - what a debate. Thanks for the comments from all but I would really like to hear from anyone that has used this system. I'm guessing nobody on the forum has. I appreciate all the input and am continuing to do research and plan to visit anyone in the area that has used this system.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Scott and lbridges I am with you guys. I think that Mr Chlorinefreeusa has another addenda and in my opinion, he is thinking about himself. I fully respect Scott poolguynj, lbridges and kelly opinions along with the others who have posted here and on TFP to help people like me, and I believe that you guys are honest hard working people with lots of knowledge and experience........


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

thanks brentr,

I really am a scientist - well to be honest - I was until I sold out and went to the dark side (management) in 1991.

If chlorinefreeusa can cite a reputable source I would be happy to sing their praises.

Meanwhile the residential pool world continues in the grand tradition of Caveat Emptor.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

ginahaust,

They are selling an inferior pool sanitation system. The proven fact is that a chlorine system does more, is safer, and costs less.

They are relying in FUD. FUD is an acronym for Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

Having worked for service companies and builders for years prior to starting my own concern, I have found that the firms that install these systems only care about separating the consumer from their money. The lure of premium dollars these things command is what draws them, not what is right for the customer. I feel that this makes them untrustworthy.

If a homeowner asked me to get them one of these after I explained why it would not be such a great idea, one of two things would happen. I would make them sign a waiver of liability to cover myself totally or I would thank them for the opportunity but suggest that another vendor would be a better choice for any and all needs they may have.

If I can't stand behind a product, I won't sell it. The money to be made is not as important to me as looking in the mirror and liking who I see. I have gained the impression over the years I have been posting here that the PBs and techs that post here seem to have a similar mind set.

While CL Free's software is substantially more advanced then the similar type products off by Eco-Smarte, they do exactly the same thing.

Here is a thread from another board that will be of interest to you.

http://www.troublefreepool.com/ecosmarte-t1690.html

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

"ANSWER: The engineers at our Factory have multiple MBA's in water chemistry and degrees in engineering from ASU. "

You can get an MBA in "water chemistry"?

Seriously ASU = Party School. It's certainely no UCB


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Hey now, lets not attack ASU.
And yes it is not UCB, they smoke way more W**D there then ASU.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

There was a typo and omission in my previous post.

"While CL Free's software is substantially more advanced then the similar type products off by Eco-Smarte, they do exactly the same thing. "

should have read,

While CL Free's software is substantially more advanced then the similar type products offered by Eco-Smarte, they do nearly exactly the same thing.

I regret the typo and omission.

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

MBA in water chemistry. I just about laughed my you know what off when I read that...

:)


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Whoa. I'm a biologist. PhD. No MBA in water chemistry, though. (Yes, I'm chuckling over that one too.) I'll be the first to admit I don't know squat about pools. But I know something about microbial disease, and I don't mess with my children's health.

I have a zillion decisions yet to make and much research to do, but I already know I'll be putting in a chlorine pool. Period.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Is ASU really that bad, or is it more like how we make fun of the office Texas Aggie grad? Example -- Q: How many Aggies does it take to change a light bulb? A: Nobody knows, they haven't successfully changed one yet.

I know the U of Arizona (Optical Sciences Center) was justifiably famous in optics back when I was a PhD candidate - honestly don't keep up much anymore.

I note my baby boy, currently a Junior at the Univ of Florida, would say UF is both a party school and has academic credentials. Personally, I think any knowledge gained depends more on the person wanting to learn something than the location of the lesson. My apology for this last semi-serious bit.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

After reading some of the negative feedback on ecosmarte type systems, i don't know what to think. I just bought a house with a inground pool with the ecosmarte system. I thought I was getting something good. I cant keep my five year old out of the pool. Now I'm worried. The water is nice and clear, no smell. But maybe it's not as clean as it looks. I love my little Girl. What should I do? I have never owned a pool before. filix.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

filix,

I stand by what I said. I don't consider this system or Eco-Smart systems, a safe system for swimmers.

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Should I add some bleach? could I? Without hurting anything? I have a DE filter. Its a 16 x 32 pool. Thankyou Scott.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Eco-Smart's pool chem requirements are a bit different. The first thing you need to better understand is pool chemistry. For this, many have found the Pool School section of trouble free pool's web forum to be helpful.

Understanding where you are, where you want to go and how to get there will be the safest path. It won't take long but will likely require some water replacement due to the high calcium hardness (CH) levels the E-S system is likely to have.

E-S and CL-Free like their CH level about 400 and a pH of 6.8 for the oxidation part of the system to function. A chlorine pool needs the pH somewhat higher.

The high CH, when the pH is raised, could form calcium scale stains on the pool's surface. CH can only be reduced via dilution or reverse osmosis. Reducing the CH level in the water of an E-S or CL-F pool will help to prevent these stains. Some pools need some CH, specifically concrete pools with cementacious finishes like plaster, Diamond Brite, PebbleTec, etc...

Bleach will play an important role.

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

I do not have an MBA in water either (or a PHD) but I do work for a company that has thousands of water treatment installations world wide. I agree that you cannot guarantee a clean pool without some form of chlorine (whether chemical or salt). What you can do is reduce the chlorine dependency to some extent by adding a UV disinfection system in line. You still need chlorine for residual and person to person transmission, but you don't need as much and the UV will deal with some real nasty chlorine resistant bugs, like crypto. Personally, I don't have UV on my pool though. I simply run a salt generator and love it. The only problem is a lot of cities are introducing water discharge regs that prohibit dischargin ANY saltwater into teh sanitary system. That means only able to dump to your own lawn, route through your sanitary system or truck away. It really isn't that big a deal unless you have to change a liner. Then you're screwed.


 o
RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System - Correction

Sorry I just noticed a mis-speak in my post. Cities are prohibiting salt discharges to STORM sewers. You have to discharge either to your lawn, your SANITARY or have it trucked away.


 o
RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Pool water is still fresh.

If I make a pot of pasta and I salt the water, it's exactly the same.

The regeneration cycle on a water softener is substantially higher in ppm count and is what some areas in California were going after, not the backwash of a pool.

They have to state what the ppm limit is. It's always, AFAIK, over 10K ppm.

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

My Goodness, what an intense thread. Nothing like a little drama to make things exciting!

My chemistry expertise is not up to this level of debate but I do know that a company with a very similar name selling ionizers was thrown out of both North and South Carolina by the attorney generals for deceptive trade practices and fraud back in the early 90's.


I


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Many municipalities have banned both salt water pools, and water softeners. A simple google search will show both.

I am not saying whether or not I agree with it, but they have.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Chlorine is the way to go.
Baquacil is pure garbage.

These hacks are just trying to push an angle and sell their snakeoil.

Keep on trucking, CL all the way.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

interesting that a company employing multiple engineers and MBAs (chuckle also at the water MBA...), all from ASU (?)(I know of no company employing the number of employees implied that all went to same school- and not a school known as a top engineering school at that! What about CALTECH, GA TECH, ISU, MIT, FIT, Tex A&M...) anyway-
how can this company not have the agenda of making money?
if true no agenda other than my health, they would give me the equipment, install it for me, maintain it for me- and not charge me a dime!
any salesman claiming pure altruism is a liar- he's driven by sales goals and/or a paycheck!


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

There is ONE really important piece of information that is being left out from ALL the posts on all the forums about chlorine. Chlorine is essentially, a PESTICIDE. I had been using chlorine for years in our pool, until my doctor and urologist said stop swimming in chlorine. It has been linked to bladder cancer, and, in the future, who knows what else. So health comes first, in my opinion. Even if these newer technologies aren't perfect yet, and yes, they all need a little chlorine too occasionally, we need to support the research and help them out. We use the copper titanium system purchased from CL Free USA. Yes, there are a few issues to deal with, but, it works!!!!! Stop pushing the chlorine, already people!!!


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Chlorine is not a pesticide. It is a sanitizer. Algaecides, by some states regulations are a pesticide. Please get your facts straight.

Proper pool chemistry is essential for all pools, CL-Free systems especially.

CL-Free has no residual sanitizer in the pool's main body of water. Bio-badies get lots of time to reproduce. That means person to person transfer of a water born illness is a much greater risk with CL-Free.

Proper pool balancing will not yield bladder cancer. Improperly cared for pools can result in certain disinfection by products (DBP) that, in elevated levels, have been linked to certain cancers. A pool in this state would be shut down normally to guests.

Ask your doctors to pop on. Let them see this and dispute it. I will be only too happy to bring on plenty that understand pool chemistry, something I suspect these two you claim, do not.

I stand by my comments that CL-Free and similar systems are a hazard to swimmers health.

I wonder who put you up to this. I see you just registered today. Are you a new employee?

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

just about everything including copper can be toxic and carcinogenic. one good thing about chlorine is it is well known and extensively studied.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

I have to assume that the last poster I responded to was, as I expected, a new hire by CL-Free. You would think that they would have strongly suggested staying off the forums by now as they get clobbered with real, actual facts about their product's many short comings. Eventually, they will run out of money and go away. Until then, we will remain vigilant and continue to help to improve the industry.

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Ok Scott - did you drink the chlorine kool-aid? Don't discredit yourself by narrowly viewing the pool solution alternatives - you sound like a typical dump and jump 'pool-guy'.

Respectfully, there are many of us who value our health over ease of effort and killing everything in site in order to 'protect' ourselves. FYI...Today we know that trillions of bacteria carpet not only our intestines but also our skin and much of our respiratory and urinary tracts. The vast majority of them seem to be innocuous, if not beneficial. And bacteria are everywhere, in abundance�they outnumber other cells in the human body by 10 to one.

Take some time to research the 'kill it all to stay safe mentality' - look up: development of disease resistant bacteria due to antibiotic overuse, the effects of disease resistant pesticides, toxicity of GMO seed, general food processing, FDA failures and of course the effects of chemical chlorine on one's body.

Please don't be condescending - no one would willingly swim
in an over-chlorinated pool. The point being made by a few voices here is that chlorine, even when properly balanced in a pool hosts a number of serious health risks. You can choose to ignore these facts, but those of us that are educated parents choose healthy alternatives (and yes, they may require more effort and sometimes even more $$.)

There are health risks to chlorination (including respiratory irritation and disease, escalated asthma, reduced sperm count and testicular health...amongst others.) Ask a PhD (preferably a highly reputed one!) Here are a few to start:

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA361110/dangers-of-chlorine.html

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/12/26/KEY-Health-Facts-You-Need-to-Know-if-You-Have-or-Use-a-Pool.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/12/03/Avoid-Swimming-Pools-if-You-Have-Allergies-or-Asthma.aspx

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/chlorine/chlorine.htm

Then of course there is the CONSUMPTION of chlorinated water - an entirely different can of worms;

http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2000/articles/2000-v15n02-p089.shtml

And no, I am not an employee of any pool company. Just a well educated, well-informed, actively involved and well researched pool owner and matriach of a healthy family.


 o
RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Ok Scott - did you drink the chlorine kool-aid? Don't discredit yourself by narrowly viewing the pool solution alternatives - you sound like a typical dump and jump 'pool-guy'.

Respectfully, there are many of us who value our health over ease of effort and killing everything in site in order to 'protect' ourselves. FYI...Today we know that trillions of bacteria carpet not only our intestines but also our skin and much of our respiratory and urinary tracts. The vast majority of them seem to be innocuous, if not beneficial. And bacteria are everywhere, in abundance�they outnumber other cells in the human body by 10 to one.

Take some time to research the 'kill it all to stay safe mentality' - look up: development of disease resistant bacteria due to antibiotic overuse, the effects of disease resistant pesticides, toxicity of GMO seed, general food processing, FDA failures and of course the effects of chemical chlorine on one's body.

Please don't be condescending - no one would willingly swim
in an over-chlorinated pool. The point being made by a few voices here is that chlorine, even when properly balanced in a pool hosts a number of serious health risks. You can choose to ignore these facts, but those of us that are educated parents choose healthy alternatives (and yes, they may require more effort and sometimes even more $$.)

There are health risks to chlorination (including respiratory irritation and disease, escalated asthma, reduced sperm count and testicular health...amongst others.) Ask a PhD (preferably a highly reputed one!) Here are a few to start:

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA361110/dangers-of-chlorine.html

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/12/26/KEY-Health-Facts-You-Need-to-Know-if-You-Have-or-Use-a-Pool.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/12/03/Avoid-Swimming-Pools-if-You-Have-Allergies-or-Asthma.aspx

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/chlorine/chlorine.htm

Then of course there is the CONSUMPTION of chlorinated water - an entirely different can of worms;

http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2000/articles/2000-v15n02-p089.shtml

And no, I am not an employee of any pool company. Just a well educated, well-informed, actively involved and well researched pool owner and matriach of a healthy family.


 o
RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Lets see. You registered yesterday to open a 2 year old thread? Or would this be someone from a Linked In forum where I mentioned this thread.

Don't portray yourself as being other than what you are.

Scott


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Scott they should just give you a system to try out....Look at the money you would make removing stains,parts,and taking the system back out....are you not in it for the money? LOL....Thats why you have spent hours and hours on this site increasing your profits Right? Give me a break I'm behind Scott all the way on this one...


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Also with Scott on this one 100% and we disagree about a lot of stuff.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

I am not part of any pool company, or pool builder. My company makes lighting gear. I am not a chemist or engineer.

I have had a copper ion pool now for 3 years. Overall the sanitizing system has been wonderful. My problems have stemmed from a number of factors, number one being a very bad pool builder, and number two being people trying to "improve" my pool without understanding the copper ion system.

I really hate it when reading threads that become so nasty. Can't we have different opinions without being mean?

Also, I would love to hear from other copper ion owners instead of the folks that seem to be monopolizing these copper ion threads.

My 2 cents' worth...


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

ok, I'm a new owner of a copper system in the pool. This year (2nd year), we can't get the water blue--still green. PH is good as is copper/titanium mix per the pool guy. What to do??? any ideas? (we've had tons of rain--even a snow since we opened--wondered if that makes a difference--truly have not had 4 days of sun in a row since we opened the pool). Any thoughts are appreciated.


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RE: Feedback on CL Free Water System

Hi Samanthass, We have had our system for 3 years. Once in a while we get the green algae - mainly when the oak tree is in heavy bloom or a wind event fills the pool with leaves. We do a one time Chlorine shock of 12 gallons of pool chlorine (our pool is about 55,000 gallons - 25 x 50 plus the negative edge trough and the wading area and spa). We dump the chlorine (liquid) in the evening and by morning everything is normally back to pretty blue.

Good luck!


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