I wouldn't suggest using a vf and vs parallel because it is more than likely going to screw with the flow sensing capabilities of VF pump.

Also when using the i10, since the bodies of water do not share the same filter, pump and heating system, the valving would be convoluted, and you will not be able to run the pool heat, and water features while in spa mode.

You mention a spa spillway which is not typically used with the i10. If the spa, and pool are sharing equipment you will need an i9+3 plus a i10X expansion center. I am making an assumption since you did not list a pool heater.

I'd personally use the pentair lights w/ their controllers. The m in a lot of very high end project, as well as others the scene selection, and color selection from the intellitouch is incredible. I have used thet architects have spec'd and I can't say that anything else looks better or worse but different. Unfortunately they do not make something the size of the savi note.

If you need a flow rate that will require 2 pumps, you may want to think about a 3hp combined with a vf, or 2 vf's for the spa. I think that a spa is a perfect setting for a vf, and I would think you are nuts not to want to use one.

"Now I am thinking perhaps I should plumb the system to have a VF and VS or two VFs in parallel with check valves so I can run each @ 1/2 the speed for the same # of hours and cut electrical use by 1/2."

If you size the pipe properly, you will not split the energy consumption in 1/2. I also wouldn't invest a lot of money trying to reduce the energy consumption of something that runs 30 minutes at most per day.

Also, you have paramount, poolvurgnugen, and a conduit for a robot (which you would need a large one to run a plug through) Why do you feel like you would need all this cleaning? You also have 23 different returns in the pool. I have built pools that are 180,000 gallons that do not have this many return pipes. Have you considered a real infloor system, and simplify everything?

Also about the crestron link, it does everything it should do. As a pool contractor and service professional, I do not want the programming, speed controls, and other advanced settings going through this control. I get a lot of people that want to control the rpm of the pump from the crestron, but you will find in actual implementation of the product, this is not necessary. You set the speeds, then just kick on the circuit related to that speed. The more control you give yourself the more convoluted the operation becomes, and the less time you will spend in the pool.

Stay away from the orp/pH control, In a residential setting they are unnecessary, as they require frequent calibration and maintenance. They are useful in commercial pools, where bather load vary by the minute, however in residential pools you will find that they are only useful when they are new and you are diligent on the calibration. Residential pools tend to be very stable once the plaster is cured. If you feel you need it they are easily retrofitted, but I would hate to see you spend all of that money for something that is going to hang on the wall unplugged and abandoned like most of these units that have been oversold.

If you have a pdf or dwg, etc of the piping plan I would be interested in seeing it.

I hope I covered everything.

Thanks racket.

To clarify and follow up:

"I wouldn't suggest using a vf and vs parallel because it is more than likely going to screw with the flow sensing capabilities of VF pump."

I figured that. Thanks

"Also when using the i10, since the bodies of water do not share the same filter, pump and heating system, the valving would be convoluted, and you will not be able to run the pool heat, and water features while in spa mode."

I did not want to even be able to use the gas heater for the pool. At 35,000 gallons and given that I have propane it would be like another mortgage, so no pool heat until solar goes in or I put in pool heat pumps. (i don't think 1 would do the trick)

"You mention a spa spillway which is not typically used with the i10. If the spa, and pool are sharing equipment you will need an i9+3 plus a i10X expansion center. I am making an assumption since you did not list a pool heater."

Are you suggesting I could use an i9+3 even though the spa has its own pump & heater and the pool has its own pump (and maybe heat pump later)?

"I'd personally use the pentair lights w/ their controllers. The m in a lot of very high end project, as well as others the scene selection, and color selection from the intellitouch is incredible. I have used thet architects have spec'd and I can't say that anything else looks better or worse but different. Unfortunately they do not make something the size of the savi note."

I read the intellitouch manual on intellibrite programming and it sure seems cool, but how often do people really play with the colors that way? I could always keep my savi notes. They just won't color match with the rest of the system. Their primary purpose is to light the sunshelf & stepping stones, not do light shows.

"If you need a flow rate that will require 2 pumps, you may want to think about a 3hp combined with a vf, or 2 vf's for the spa. I think that a spa is a perfect setting for a vf, and I would think you are nuts not to want to use one."

I'm sorry, I was talking about dual vf's on the pool, not the spa. Only for energy savings. I think I am ok on flow.

On the spa, the designer was pushing a 3HP also, as the energy savings for minimal run time does not do much. I pushed for the VS as I wanted the speed control. As there is no filter and so forth why use a VF on the SPA?

"If you size the pipe properly, you will not split the energy consumption in 1/2. I also wouldn't invest a lot of money trying to reduce the energy consumption of something that runs 30 minutes at most per day."

As I noted. I meant for the pool, not the spa.

"Also, you have paramount, poolvurgnugen, and a conduit for a robot (which you would need a large one to run a plug through) Why do you feel like you would need all this cleaning? You also have 23 different returns in the pool. I have built pools that are 180,000 gallons that do not have this many return pipes. Have you considered a real infloor system, and simplify everything?"

Before I tweaked this design I had a bid on a Paramount PV-3 in-floor cleaner and leaf canister of $5,816.53. Seemed like a bunch of money and seems to require a high flow rate for a long period for a pool my size (lots of zones), defeating the benefit of the VF, i.e., longer run times at lower speeds. Other worries included, 1. if I wanted low returns for heat I would be forced to those high flow rates again & 2. the cycling of the Paramount zones would mess up the VF's control system.

I had a pressure cleaner before and it didn't bother me, hence the poolvernugen. I liked the idea of robots but wanted the technology to advance a bit more. The future connection would be 12V, so no big plug and conduit is cheap in the scheme of things. If I get a robot I will retire the poolvernugen.

"Also about the crestron link, it does everything it should do. As a pool contractor and service professional, I do not want the programming, speed controls, and other advanced settings going through this control."

Point taken, thanks.

"Stay away from the orp/pH control, In a residential setting they are unnecessary, as they require frequent calibration and maintenance. They are useful in commercial pools, where bather load vary by the minute, however in residential pools you will find that they are only useful when they are new and you are diligent on the calibration. Residential pools tend to be very stable once the plaster is cured. If you feel you need it they are easily retrofitted, but I would hate to see you spend all of that money for something that is going to hang on the wall unplugged and abandoned like most of these units that have been oversold."

Thanks. The reason for this is my last pool had a salt system and that is always driving PH up. That pool was less than half the size I have planned and I wanted automatic acid feed (or CO2) to I wouldn't get the wild PH swings. Are you saying I am just going to trade adding acid for calibrating the system that adds a few thousand to my costs?

"If you have a pdf or dwg, etc of the piping plan I would be interested in seeing it."

I will email tomorrow. I do not have it at home.

"Are you saying I am just going to trade adding acid for calibrating the system that adds a few thousand to my costs?"

Bingo. If not calibrated, the controller will attempt to maintain an improper pH, which does you know good.

Salt systems do not drive up the pH, they are actually relatively pH neutral. The reason why the pH drifts up is because the surface of the pool has a high pH. If you use chlorine tablets since they have a low pH (in the 2's) they will help offset some of the pH swing.

I will address some of the other stuff after I see a schematic.

"He typically installs specialized equipment and fixes PBs screwed up installs."

You're on the right track! HA HA

There's a lot to absorb here. Energy efficiency will happen with two pumps at 35k better than one. But, we're talking about knocking a few hours off the one pump if you go with 2 and that's a lot to spend. It will pay for itself but not right away. If you go with 2 pumps, you need to check valve in and out as both pumps will not turn on at the exact second and if one fails, you have bigger problems.

Racket:

I have the .pdf of the plumbing diagram but misplaced your email address, sorry, could you get it to me.

Also, I think I would have to disagree on the salt system. See the link. I know. You cant believe everything you read, but this one is pretty convincing

Everyone's advice is much appreciated.

I will post pics and results as we go on.

Here is a link that might be useful: salt water chlorinators drive up PH

rob@aqualinepoolandspa.com

Chulaman-

Good questions and you are obviously doing your homework here. I think your choice on spa pump and controls is a good one. 4 different jet settings should accommodate most everyones expectations and comfort levels.

Regarding the pool circulation and cleaning. I would offer a few other options to consider if interested. By the way, I did similar research when I was building our pool and surprisingly our pools are about the same: volume is 35K gallons, with Paramount PV-3 infloor cleaning system and chlorine generator.

Ultimately, I decided to go with a 2.5HP 2 speed pump to do the task of circulation, filtering and cleaning. With this setup, I run the PV3 at 1.5 hours a day at high speed and the rest of the filter/circulation cycle is done with low speed. During the winter, low speed is only ran for about 4 hours/day and during the summer, low speed is ran for about 8 hours/day. This has provided enough chlorination and filtration as my pool is always crystal clear and chlorine levels have been in check. This winter, I had the chlorine generator down to 10% and last summer I had it up to 40% and it provided adequate chlorine, even in 35K gallons. My pool though is somewhat shaded, so this will probably make a difference on chlorine needs and your pool may be need more chlorine.

HereÂs some options I considered:

Two uneven single speed pumps in parallel. With this setup a 1HP pump was in parallel with a 2HP pump and this gave 3 different flow rates possible: 1HP, 2HP and 3HP depending on need.

Two uneven 2 speed pumps in parallel. With this setup a 1.5HP 2 speed was in parallel with a 2.0HP 2 speed and this gave a possibility of 8 different flow rates with all the combinations of high and low speed between the 2 pumps.

Ultimately, I decided to keep the system simple with a single 2 speed pump used in conjunction with large plumbing and minimum 90Âs, tees, crosses, etc. Variable speed pumps did not make much sense in my application. I did a lot of homework here also on true efficiency benefits of variable speed vs 2 speed and there is not much difference between these two technologies with the filter cycles that I described above.

The plumbing design is much more important than the pump technology if you really want to save energy month after month. Once I really started to bone up on plumbing and its effect on system efficiency, I realized that the addition of a tee and checkvalves in the plumbing system added additional backflow on pumps, so the parallel pump ideas hit the trash can. If you want to really learn more about plumbing design, I can provide a few published documents that have wonderful information on plumbing design and things to consider when designing the plumbing.

If your pool was much bigger, say 70K gallons or more, I would say parallel pumps would make a lot of sense for filtering and cleaning. But, for 35K gallons, parallel pumps is overkill. Especially two variable speed pumps in parallel, unless cost is of no concern and you just want to tinker with different configurations and technologies.

Hope this helps.

Trhought:

Thanks for the input. I have seen pictures of your pool and it is pretty impressive. My 9 year old would kill for your slide.

Since I posted I have decided to stick to the Intelliflo 4x160 for the spa so we can tweak the settings.

On the pool I have also decided to stick to a single pump, likely the Intelliflo VF. That way I could put on the bubblers, slide, etc, without any issues and tune the flow to my system.

I am curious as to how satisfied your are with the Paramount PV3. I saw in dome pictures you have the heads even in the steps. How many heads do you have and how many zones? How clean does it keep your pool. One of the bidding PBs keeps trying to talk me into this as I already specified the MDX drains and leaf canister.

"The plumbing design is much more important than the pump technology if you really want to save energy month after month."

I agree and am confident with what my designer has done on that issue.

"If you want to really learn more about plumbing design, I can provide a few published documents that have wonderful information on plumbing design and things to consider when designing the plumbing."

Please

"Hope this helps."

Very much. Thanks

chulaman -

Thanks for the kind words regarding our pool. Yes. I really like the PV3 system. We paid $4K for it and we are happy we did. The system takes care of itself and the pool is always spotless with little maintenance. This was important to me since I travel a lot. We opted not to get the leaf canister as it was only one more basket to clean. The pump basket itself is the largest in the industry and does a nice job of capturing the leaves.

We have 6 zones and about 5-8 heads per zone. Once your pool plan is sent to Paramount, they will provide an engineered drawing for head placement, number of heads, size of each head and recommended flow and TDH for your pool. If the print is followed by the PB, the system will perform well.

Your choice of Intelliflo for your spa is wise. It will provide lots of different levels of comfort and will likely not be used for more than a couple hours per day. For the pool filter pump, it sounds like you may be using the Intelliflo for other water features in addition to filtering and cleaning. If this is the case, be aware that the Intelliflo pumps are not efficient at high speed...above 1800 rpm and above 80-100 gpm. Just thought I would share this with you since you mention a slide and other water features that may require higher flows and may be used more than a couple hours a day. Also with the VF downgrade in flow, make sure you will have enough for your application. Nothing would be more disappointing than not having enough flow for your multi-task water features.

Here's some links to stuff I found when designing my plumbing and selecting pumps for our pool. Lots of good stuff here to double check your existing plumbing plans against if interested. This is also great material to read before going to bed!

http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/2008standards/prerulemaking/documents/2006-07-12_workshop/presentations/2006-07-12_RESIDENTIAL_SWIMMING_POOLS.PDF

http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/2008standards/prerulemaking/documents/2007-02-26-27_workshop/supporting/PGE-DRAFT_REPORT_RESIDENTIAL_SWIMMING_POOL.PDF

Hope this helps!

"Sweep elbows 1%"

Just like i suspected. I actually recorded 3% in my testing.
Then again how do you recognize a 1% difference? You are relying 1% wouldn't even cover your accuracy range/

here is also somthing interesting. "Capacitor Start Capacitor Run 55 75"

The PMSM motors on the intelliflo product are 88-92

"As Table 17 shows, the actual energy savings from simply switching out the hard 90s for sweeps or double 45s are
rather low. However, like other measures, the reduced TDH from mandating sweep elbows can be combined with
other measures for a synergistic effect overall reducing the TDH of the system and enabling the builder to choose a
smaller pump."

What they are saying is that in the real world this could work, but didnt work in our real world test.

trhought:

Regarding your PV3. you say "We have 6 zones and about 5-8 heads per zone. Once your pool plan is sent to Paramount, they will provide an engineered drawing for head placement, number of heads, size of each head and recommended flow and TDH for your pool.". You previously mentioned "I run the PV3 at 1.5 hours a day at high speed and the rest of the filter/circulation cycle is done with low speed."

Do you know what your flow rate is when running the PV3?
Do you still have surface returns in your pool and if so do they still run when you have the PV3 on?

I appreciate your comments on the VF and the flow rate getting too low if I use the features. If I run for 12 hours @ 60 GPM normally I think I will be ok with the slide @ 40 GPM and the bubblers. TI think the slide won't be on for long periods but I may be wrong.

In any event, If I have a flow issue, all my lines will be plumbed to the pad and it will not be the end of the world to have special purpose pumps.

Also, thanks for the links.

chulaman -

Sounds like you're all set on pump selection and your plumbing design has flexibility built in for future additional pumps if needed. This is wise and won't cost much extra during construction.

Regarding the PV3 system flow rate, I do not know the actual flow I'm running in high speed. The drawing from Paramount indicates a target gpm of 80 at 60 TDH for each of the zones. I chose a larger 2 speed to ensure I had enough flow at low speed to meet min. gpm requirments for the heat pump as well as provide enough flow to actuate the paramount valve and pop the heads on the floor system for efficient heating. The downside of this decision is the high speed flow on the larger 2 speed is much larger than 80 gpm.

The high flow problem was solved by plumbing a bypass branch parallel to the paramount branch that provides flow to 4 surface returns in the pool, which also helps direct surface water towards the skimmer (2 of these returns are in the cave grotto and feel really good on the back). There is also an additional by-pass at the heat pump, per mfg. recommendations. Both bypasses close during low speed operation ensuring all flow goes through the heat pump and floor system. When the pump switches to high speed, the bypass lines open allowing the pump to operate at lower head pressure and also providing flow to the surface returns. The bypass valves are actually solenoid valves that have flow adjustment. So, I played with the bypass flow adjustment until the floor system was performing well.....but I still don't know the actual gpm being delivered to the Paramount system. If I had to guess on flow, it would probably be less than the 80 gpm callout on the Paramount plan as I'm only getting 14 psi at the actuator valve and Paramount recommends 19-21 psi. 14 psi is doing a fine job with cleaning and I could not see increasing the pressure at the sacrifice of increasing pump pressure and reducing efficiency.

Sorry for the long explanation....it would have been easier if I had a picture of my plumbing schematic handy to attach.

Hope this helps.