2) Trhought mentions going with 2.5in piping. Racket states about 2.5" caveating if too big. I have read alot since Friday and most say to go bigger on the suction side. I think I may do 2" return side and then 2.5" suction side, and ask for as many elbows vs tee's. What do you think?

You should be ok there.

4) should I still upgrade from the QuadDE60 to a QuadDE80?

Simple answer is bigger is better, that is 30% more filter so theoretically, you will have to clean it that much less.

"I scrapped the VS3050 for one main reason since repairguy continues to state how many bad install jobs he has seen on these pumps. In NY here, this VS pump is barely known by the pool installers b/c our pool season is only 5 months long."

There is more reasons than just getting an ROI on it. Its a better machine all together. I have very little faith in the a.o. smith motors being produced currently, whether 2 speed, or single speed.

comkow -

Glad to hear you are happy with your selections. I think your choices are good and you now know what to look for when the plumber arrives!

Your PB should be able to help with your decision on pool automation and if they are specifying 1.5HP, I would take the 1.5HP. If it does not do the job for some reason, then they will be responsible for getting one that does.

Agree with your selection on pipe size and as racket indicated, bigger filter is better.

Congratulations!

racket - all drives have heat sinks. I was referring to a heat sink that was sized large enough to not rely on a fan to move air across it. Cooling fan needed = potential for fan failure. Once the fan fails, the drive overheats and fails and the pump will not work until the drive is replaced. An expensive failure that could have been avoided if a cooling fan was not part of the design.

Regarding your question on impeller design on 2 speed and variable speed. Correct, the 2 speed has the same impeller as a single speed and this is why the 2 speed has efficient high speed operation. If the variable speed impeller design is optimized for high speed operation, then some of the low speed performance is lost. This is a reality that all variable speed manufacturer's will have to face. My guess is the impeller design philosophy will be what differentiates variable speed pump manufacturers from one another going forward and their marketing stories will be built around these design philosophies. Competition is good and hopefully this will drive more efficiency from these variable speed products.

Thanks for the offer to provide a flowmeter for my 3HP pump. It has 3" piping, both suction and return. I too am curious how much water this thing can move and to confirm if Jandy has indeed done their homework on this impeller design as their published curve states.

"Cooling fan needed = potential for fan failure"

This isn't a computer case fan. It's a heavy duty fan driven by the shaft of the motor. Unless we are talking about a total fluke, the fan will never fail as long as the motor is spinning, and the drive has many different thermal protection devices. They spend over $22mil developing this drive and motor.

racket - Has there been a change in the fan drive configuration recently with Intelliflo. I did see an early version of Intelliflo about a year ago at the PB's office and not sure what vintage this unit was. It appeared to have a cooling fan that was not driven by the motor and was spinning at a high speed.

trhought, pool guy, racket,
thanks for the interesting discussion! Please keep this going! There must be something to VS drives, electronically controlled motors, and rare-earth magnet motors, so I am inclined to believe at least some of the claims from Pentair, but thanks to the inputs from trhought, I am not running out to buy an Intelliflo yet, especially, since I have to support trhought in his opinion that all claims from pool equipment manufacturers are highly questionable. For example, my Hayward Ultra pool sweeper is a piece of junk that needs intensive coaching to just occasionally work, while it is always a lottery game to get my Hayward heater going when I want to heat the spa.

Just for the sake of accuracy: Could we stay with measuring (real) energy in Wh or kWh (I saw "300W per hour" stated in some of the posts, which is nonesense)...

In the discussion on pipe sizes I missed the resistance offered by the filter (my filter drops about 10 PSI when it is clean), which must be higher than any limitation posed by pipe size, or are you looking at systems that bypass the filter?

Wolf

"Just for the sake of accuracy: Could we stay with measuring (real) energy in Wh or kWh (I saw "300W per hour" stated in some of the posts, which is nonesense)..."

Since when is a watt not a measurement of energy use????

The IntelliFlo, rightly programmed on low flow for pool circc is consumes on average, 300-400 watts per hour. Or if you like, .33kwh. How's that...

Repair guy,
W = P * t, or, energy = power * time. So, if power is measured in Watts (W), energy is measured in Wh (Watthours), or kWh. Your W number, say 60W on a light bulb, specifies the power, which is definitely not energy. The utility does not charge you for Watts, but for the Wh or kWh used. By the same token, you do not pay for the HP your car has, but for the energy it took to drive it (in the form of gasoline)...

If my pump has a power of 2kW and I run it for 3 hours, it will consume 6kWh.

To confuse things more, let me add that the utilities tend to charge us for "real" energy, i.e. "apparent" energy (measured in VAh, or volt-amp-hours) projected to zero phase angle (Wh or kWh). In other words, a 2kVA motor running at 60 degree phase angle (power factor = 0.5) consumes "real" power of cosine 60°, or 0.5 times the apparent power, which would be the equivalent of 1kW. I am sure that the electronic controls will do some power factor correction, since the utilities do not like significant phase angles on the user side. Now I have strayed far off the subject. Sorry!

But, going back to the thread, I just looked up my Jandy 2HP pump, which has a motor made by A.O. Smith (according to some earlier comments, pretty bad). If this pump drives water through the filter at a given flow rate, and the Intelliflo is set to the same flow rate, but consumes less power (over time resulting in less energy), it must be more economical. I will soon take some readings while the pump is running that will indicate the power at a certain pressure difference at the filter. Hopefully, some one the comes up with the comparable number for the Intelliflo.

Again, sorry for jumping into this discussion. Please keep this going! It is very interesting.

Yep, I think?????

trhought,

I don't know if anyone ever replied to your question of April 14. I have an Intelliflo 4x160, and there is no dedicated cooling fan for the drive electronics. What you saw must have been an early prototype. The motor itself is a TEFC design. It's possible that the heat sink of the drive is designed to dissipate its heat onto the motor housing itself.

Also, I really think that one reason that Pentair chose such a big motor for this pump is they expected that very few people would ever run this above 3000 rpm. At low speeds, the currents are so low that you could almost get away without any cooling at all. I think someone stated elsewhere that this motor is really rated at somewhere around 3.5 to 4.0 hp. Running at full speed, it probably only has to produce around 2.0 to 2.5 hp.

Also, in case you didn't know, the drive is manufactured by D****ss. If you're in the HVAC industry, you probably already know who I'm talking about.

peter-

Thanks for the information regarding the drive and motor construction. Knew the motor was TEFC BPM but did not know who made the drive.

Agree, at low speed, the heat rejected from the drive is low and nothing can beat this technology due to the permanent magnet motors and not having to induce the magnetic fields like PSC. Low speed on a 2 speed comes within 200-300 watts of variable speed at low speed. As long as the variable speed is used for light duty and not called on for high flow applications, it will save money on a daily basis over 2 speed. However, if the variable speed is called on for high flow, the power savings is lost within an hour or two of high speed operation and a 2 speed may be a better choice. This has always been the limitation with any variable speed product I have seen (HVAC, pool industry, process control, flow control, etc.) High speed (high current) losses from the drive and other design compromises go against variable speed and 2 speed is usually enough for most applications and will delivery great overall efficiency for less initial cost.

Thanks for the info on the drive. I'm very familar with D****SS. They are a good competitor to a lot of our product lines...namely scroll compressors, variable speed drives, TXV's, filter driers and other system protectors.

wolfhomma-

Good commments and obviously you are technically savvy enough to make the power comparisons between variable speed and 2 speed. There are many pump curves (variable speed, 2 speed and 1 speed) published on the internet from Pentair, Jandy and Hayward. If you know your pump run hours and how you will be using the pump for your particular application (high vs low flow), then simply compare total watts consumed per day (KWH) and this should help you make your decision and determine what kind of return on investment you will get with variable speed if any.

Good comment on the 300 watts per hour. This was only mentioned to help those reading this post calculate total watts consumed per day by multiplying pump run time hours by 300 watts. You are correct, 300 watts per hour is misleading because the hour units would cancel out and the results is just watts, which is not how the power company sells power. The calculation and numerical result, however, does give the homeowner an accurate value that can be used to determine how much money that device will cost them per day.

Regarding pipe resistance, the key to low energy consumption, is to keep the pipe velocities low. You will not get 10 psi pressure drop across your filter at low speed unless something is wrong with the system, such as a dirty filter. This 10 psi pressure drop will only occur at high speed as well as other pressure drops from all the fittings and pipe length at high speed. This is why 2 speed and variable speed are so much more efficient than a 1 speed. Because at lower speeds, they allow the pump to work easier at lower velocities and lower dynamic head while still moving water to meet the pools needs for circulation and filtering.

Hope this helps!

trhought,
Thanks for the explanation and for acknowledging my two cents of wisdom! I work for a company that makes ICs that are used in electricity meters. So my interest in pump efficiency has more than one reason...

My Jandy pump always runs at the same high speed (hence the high pressure drop), and to my understanding the main reason why many on this thread are suspicious of one-speed pumps. Is the current theory that you would run at low speed most of the time and just use a few minutes of high speed to run the pool vac?

In the Pentair online documentation, their cost calculator spits out a value of annual cost, based on 1 turn/day. Does this mean the whole 15,000 gallons are supposed to be circulated daily? When I plug in my 2HP pump and 6 hours of operation, I get 1.68 turns/day which seems to indicate that I am running my pump too long. However, I will definitely get algae problems if I run the pump shorter (we have a salt system).

It is slowly sinking in that with the Intelliflo (or a two-speed pump, for that matter) I could run the pump longer, but slower, while getting enough chlorine production. Right?

With the lower power consumption of the IntelliFlo, you will be able to run longer for less $. A benefit is that your cell production increases and more chlorine is produced daily. At that point, you can turn down the % output and another benefit surfaces. Longer cell life.

Wolfhomma,

FWIW, I run my 4x160 for at 8-10 hours per day at 900 rpm, 1 hr per day at about 1700 rpm (for vacuuming), and about 45 min/day at 2300 rpm for surface skimming. Last summer was the first summer we had the pool. My average daily energy use was about 5-6 kwh +/- 20%. This is an estimate based on comparing my electric bills with the summer before. Dollarwise, my bills went up by about $50-60, but that's including an increase in our top electricity rate, which went from 31 cents to 37.5 cents per kwH.

I have a Pentair Intellichlor SWG which I set to between 15-20 percent duty cycle for the entire summer. Never had a problem with insufficient chlorine. My advice if you live in high energy-cost state is to put in the Intelliflo as quickly as you can.

trhought,

Just to clarify, the intelliflo is a BLPM (brushless PM) motor. I think that's what you meant when you said BPM, but I was afraid some people may have misinterpreted. I don't think anyone would recommend a brush motor for a pool application.

I'm curious what you estimate the drive losses to be. I've been out of the inverter industry for 15 years now, and I never fully understood HVAC applications, but I seem to recall that switching losses were very low ever since the advent of IGBT technology. And the power required for the control electronics could be considered negligible. I would guess that the controls consume less than 20 watts and the inverter stage is something around 95+ percent efficient. Am I wrong?

Help! We have a 20,000 gallon pool with a Hayward Aqualogic system and a 1.5 HP pump. The spa is connected to the pool and we use the spillover function to filter both the pool and the spa concurrently. Our electric bill here in Maui was $846 last month, and we don't even have air conditioning! I figure the pool is costing at least $250/mo. and we never use the spa or pool heater! (We did just install solar water heating which appears to be saving $150/mo.) Now we want to address the energy use of the pool pump, which seems to be much higher than necessary.

My question is this: Can we replace our existing pool motor with an Intelliflo VF? Will it integrate into the Hayward setup? Can we still use the remote control unit to turn on the various features? The other issues I forsee are: will we have sufficient power to run the pool sweep (which already seems to be a little weak, and runs 8 hours per day to keep the pool clean), and sufficient power for the spillover, which needs to have enough flow into the pool to keep the filtering process effective. We constantly fight an algae problem here, so we can't seem to skimp on the filtering time. Whenever we cut back on the 8 hours during the summer, we start seeing the green! Hope someone can help shed some light on what our options might be. Our electric bill is crippling us! Mahalo!!

Can we replace our existing pool motor with an Intelliflo VF?
>> I don't see why not.

Will it integrate into the Hayward setup?

>> Not very well, as far as I know. The Intelliflo pumps use an RS-485 communication cable to talk with Pentair controllers. They will not talk to Hayward controllers. The pump will work just as well as your existing pump. You just won't be able to adjust the speed from the Hayward.

Can we still use the remote control unit to turn on the various features?

>> Yes, you'll be able to turn the pump on and off, but you won't be able to control the speed.

The other issues I forsee are: will we have sufficient power to run the pool sweep (which already seems to be a little weak, and runs 8 hours per day to keep the pool clean)
>> Should work just fine. I run my Hayward at just a little over half-speed, and it works fine. Of course my pool is smaller and I may have significantly shorter plumbing runs, but you should still have more than enough power. Remember that the Intelliflo is basically a 2.0+ hp pump

and sufficient power for the spillover, which needs to have enough flow into the pool to keep the filtering process effective.
>> Should have more than enough power, but then you won't save much money in electricity. You're going to have to figure out the tradeoffs. You can program the pump so that you have just the right amount of flow that you need.

Aloha. Lucky you live Hawaii!!!

Unfortunately, I missed this entire debate but I do have a question if the industry experts are still monitoring this thread.

I understand that the higher end Intelliflo has the programmable controller to change flow rates at different times or it can maintain a constant flow rate under changing conditions. But this seems of limited value without the ability to also redirect the flow of water. The high end model can't open and close valves, can it?

So I need an external controller anyway to perform that function even with the high end unit.

I'm not in the industry. Am I missing something here?

If the Intelliflo could also open and close valves that would make it worth the additional cost as long as the all things in one package approach doesn't scare you.

PF Maui, you will be able to control the spped of the pump from the Aqualogic, However each speed you want to set will need a free auxiliary to operate.

You would need an intellicom to pull this off.

Copelt,

The pump does not have valve output functionality. The constant flow rate under changing conditions is to make sure it keeps the same gpm whend the filter, or stainer baskets get dirty.

If you open a valve for another feature wouldn't you want more GPM to operate that feature?

trhought'

Or should I say hi Steve.. Mr. I got demoted at AO Smith because of me. I knew if I looked at some of your other postings I would figure out who you are. Guys, this is the old VP of Marketing from AO Smith. The IntelliFlo cost him his job and now he is working in HVAC... FOR AO SMITH! I thought you were a Jandy guy at first but some of your ridiculous postings gave you away.... Too funny! You need to get over this Steve and see a therapist.. I am also real sorry your E-mod was a buster too but I told you it would never work and yet again you did not listen! I am going to laugh all weekend over this one... too funny! the reason this guy is so anti IntelliFlo is he lost his job over it... no vision!!! Explains everything. Now I am just upset that I spent the last 5 minutes replying to your other anti IntelliFlo posting....

Hey Rob,

Good to see you on the front line again. I called this back in November arguing with this knucklehead. I remember you said that in a room of 2000, there would be people planted to give you a hard time over the product you represent and you need to be ready with a defense. "TR" built a pool with Jandy so he has become the Jandy expert here. He obviously has IntelliFlo issues and his arguments don't hold water. I went off on a rant against him in November of last year and pretty much accused him of working for AO Smith which he has continually denied. My point was the AO Smith product going do far south that any technology was better than what was going on his beloved Jandy.

Your offer last year got me thinking that there are other choices in life. I have closed my business this month and have gone to work for POOL CORP. We are making a huge impression against our competitor in just two weeks as we are also offering training to our customers to be better technicians and making distribution what it s supposed to be. I have an IntelliFlo class coming up for the guys and it would be monumental to have you teach it if you are anywhere near San Diego.

Brent

I posted this on the other large energy efficient thread that trthought has been babbling on:
Steve is trthought - you should never bite the hand that feeds you - Pentair is your largest pool motor customer so please read this post closely.

Oh boy trthought has been outed - hey Steve hi ya doing.
I was wrong Steve does not work for Jandy and but does work for an HVAC company. He is up to his eyeballs with Jandy trying to get them into the variable speed market and has been for a few years.

He personally picked the wrong horse a few years ago, made some bad MARKETING decisions while with a motor company and is now in the HVAC division - hey Steve that EMOD motor is really making much of an impact? Due to all this he has a real bone to pick with Pentair.

Anyway Steve is not to happy with Pentair as he life has become "complicated" due to the success of the IntelliFlo.

Hey Steve it was not to hard to figure out you were when doing a little search on your posts you tipped your hat a few times telling us about 2 different versions of a variable speed pump, etc.
You are pretty late with the AO Smith Jandy version of IntelliFlo how come? Have Jandy run out of money or engineers?
You all have been talking about it for 2-3 years or at least until Pentair told you to take your ball and go home. Hey Steve how are those Jandy motor sales this year? Tough year too bad.

Dear Board: Sorry to bore you with all the intrigue but after all the stuff he has been spewing on Pentair and IntelliFlo and not being forthright to the board all the while taking advantage of the board with idiotic, completely misleading statements it deserves to be told what he is all about. Steve and his company have a big stake and have lost substantial business due to Pentair and the IntelliFlo and the impact this product has made in the pool market and to his company.

Lastly Steve during a few of the tirades during your posts you mentioned a few things that your should not have mentioned about Pentair and this will be followed up on at higher levels.

A suggestion: It is probably a very good career decision for you only to post in the HVAC forum.

Hey Repair Guy,

I was focused on other things these last few months preparing the new version of IntelliFlo with SVRS. We are very excited about it and many people have labored many hours to get this product to market. I have been dawn to dusk focused on this and have not had time for much of anything else besides my wife and four kids. I would love to have involvement in your class direct or indirect and worst case we would be happy to provide a resource to help in training.. You have my personal e-mail so send me a line and let me know when and we will get someone there to support you.

To everyone else reading this post I apologize to you that this forum is being used to pass propaganda by no other than my own induction motor supplier! He represents the largest supplier to my competition as well and as Deeker has mentioned they turned us down to work jointly on the IntelliFlo back in 2000 and have suffered for it and he (trhought) was one of the decision makers. The IntelliFlo is now Pentair's single best selling part number and has done wonders moving the pool industry into green thinking. I am sure for his company and his hopefully short career he will deny it but I promise you this is him and he is telling the truth.. He is in HVAC now! As for everything else he says it is all bogus I promise you. Judge for yourself, however, this is the prominent reason he has not been forward on who he works for.

Don't take my word on the IntelliFlo; I will admit I am extremely bias; I invented the concept and work for Pentair. If you do your research you will find a host of government testing, independent third party, and best of all utility company backing on the truth in advertising for IntelliFlo. As a huge case in point right now at the PIE show in California two speeds are being questioned for title 20. There is more to energy efficiency in pools than multispeed pumps so don't get narrowed in focus. Variable speed is the first and best step but don't forget about the system as it is just as important. Plumb for what you are trying to achieve and keep in mind your filter choice along with elevations and other loses. The beauty of variable speed is it gives you control over many things and doesn't force you to just slam down the gas peddle to get to your destination. The shear essence of the product is it's scalability to what you are trying to achieve and almost all people end up saving money with it even by accident. As builders have become more familiar with this they have stepped up their game as well.. When in the past did pool builders talk about energy and it was no fault of theirs; it was very confusing and almost impossible to rule of thumb anything. This product has changed that and they are learning everyday in ways to accent this technology and build better pools from it.

Pentair Guys-

To clear the air, I am not Steve, and please leave this guy alone because he is not me. You guys have mentioned HVAC companies in other forums and possible business interactions with the HVAC industry so I will not be posting anymore on this subject due to potential conflict of interest.

If I can sideline the personal stuff here and keep the info informative for pool owners reading this (though I understand your desire to clear the air).....

I have done my homework and come to the conclusion to buy an inteliflo. It will be installed in a few weeks.

One of the things I am terribly dissapointed about is that the VF is not compatible with the EasyTouch. Is the thought process here that this will make the consumer choose to upgrade to the Intellitouch? Well let me tell you what it will do - make the consumer downgrade to the VS. This is totally counterproductive to you all selling VF's.

Now, I am told the firmware to correct this will be out soon, but without a fixed date, this doesnt help the guy like me who is within a couple weeks of equipment.

I'd like to here you Pentair guys comments on this. thanks so much.....

Here is my perspective, but you'd have to get a product person top clarify. The IntelliTouch has been out longer than any version of IntelliFlo or EasyTouch. EasyTouch was brought out as a simpler alternative to the complex and often way more than you need IntelliTouch. I see no reason to buy one when you have the EasyTouch. Prior to EasyTouch, most guys were scared away by its complexities compared to the Jandy Aqualink which we all knew very well. The first version of the IntelliFlo was out prior to the EasyTouch. As the latest to arrive is this bunch was the VF, it wa sintroduced as a stand alone product. Now, I'm not a product developer but it makes sense to me to develop something forward and not backward. The VS needs a controller and it will work on the IntelliTouch or EasyTouch. It is not stand alone. If you are going to come up with a better product like a VF over a VS, why would you engineer it backwards to work with an Easytouch? It mmakes sense to develop the EAsyTouch to work with it as the pump came later. Pentair has done this. That version will be available and I'm guessing it is because there are more EasyTouch sales than IntelliTouch sales. The SVRS laws are now in place and the latest version of the VS will come compliant. In fact, we are now ordering these units for distribution. I really don't see a need to buy a standard VS anymore now that the SVRS units are coming. It's all about moving forward. However, we will stock about a 2/3 to 1/3 new vs old VS pump. Jusy my .02. Like any product that comes to market, timing is everything. If you are informed and know a better version is coming, you may wait to start the job. If a 2009 car model is better than the 2008 version was, I might delay my purchase. That is really a builder issue. They need to let you know what's in the pipeline so you can make an informed choice. Most in this industry know that the new product rolls out in November-December. And, higher prices usually hit by January so there is a fine window in getting new things and not paying higher costs.

As a consumer, I dont really know about or should not need to be privy to what came out when. I began my search 3 months ago not having or needing any info of the evolution of Pentair product development. I came to the conclusion that a VF was worth the investment and what I wanted. Seperately, I came to the conclusion that Easytouch did what I needed for programming and automation, including valve turning. Then I came to the bizarre realization that these 2 fairly new products were incompatable. I'm open to convincing that this is a good idea somehow, but it puts me in a position to not get exactly what I want and seems totally illogical to me and counter to VF sales from Pentair's standpoint.

As RG mentions - I'd like to hear from a Pentiar product person on this. thanks for the info...

flchad,
Cutting right to the chase we ran out of memory space on the EZ Touch - the VF was sacrificed.
The EZ Touch is in final stages of infield testing with the VF pump and will be available 3-4 weeks.

deeker - thanks - that's good to hear. I've been told it was in the works, but couldnt get straight info on how soon it would be.

I was told of a work around until I can get the updated firmware, so I am still going to get the VF and EZ and use the workaround until the firmware is available and then I'll be good to go. thanks....

deeker - any update on this release? We're coming up on the 3 week mark and I am having equipment (VF and Easy) installed possibly late next week or definelty the following week. thanks....

I replaced my old pump with a intelliflo vf and would like your oppinion on my new settings

40 x 18 black bottom pool (35K gallons)
hayward navigator run 3 hrs per day
solar system (contols are shot so either on or off)
4 cartridge filter (about 10 PSI clean)
1.5 inch supply and return lines with 4 check valves

I have set the navigator to run at 35gpm for 3 hrs. to turn the rest of the volume in the remaining 12 hours the pump wanted to run at 48 GPM. I reset the turn time to 24 hours and the GPM dropped to 15 GPM and is using hardly energy at all.

Is this the most energy efficent setting possible?
I am also trying to minimize air build up in the filter. We had to bleed for 30 seconds to a minute each day.

ernst,
In real world testing, 30gpm has proven to be the best flow overall. It gives a good skimming action and ends up being great with power consumption.

If you give the pump 20 hours it should run around 30 gpm given the three hour ramp up for the cleaner.

If you are sucking air into the filter, you have a suction side leak in the plumbing or pump basket lid.

Also thinking about installing Intelliflo VF to be shared with pool/spa. We will have a H2Ofall and hopefully will have enough power to control that also. Can you really down the pump to 1/2 hp and up to 3 1/2 hp? Pool will be between 20000 and no more than 25000 gallons. Will this pump really save us money? Getting quote on pump of $1300, could go with WhisperFlo 1.5 hp for $519. Any advice is appreciated, first pool.

If you have a quote for $1300 for a VF (NOT VS), that is a good price if the builder is installing it. You'll need some sort of automated system if you want the pump to multitask to a waterfall that is valved. Otherwise, it will work fine on this application. The upper speeds and flow are only going to be seen if appropriate pipe size exists. Otherwise, expect high optimum performance on a 2" pipe to be about 80 gpm. To get the better efficiency at the peak horsepower, you'll need larger pipe. This is not unique, it is the same for any pump running at a horsepower greater than 2.25 or so HP.

Don't mean to step into a hornet's nest here - though the mood seems to have calmed over time - but I have an even more extreme energy situation that I'm hopeful some pros can help with:

My contractor has built my pool, and we are completely off-grid. All of our electricity comes from solar (photovoltaic) power. That means we're not just worried about saving a few bucks per month on our energy bill - we have to count every watt (or watt-hour I guess is the more technically accurate way of stating it, I believe).

This is a small hotel with a 17,000 gallon pool and an entirely separate 1,000 gallon spa. I understand that I will need two pumps - two complete systems, actually. We will have solar heating for both the pool and the spa - the black PVC tubes for the pool and I'm still researching what we'll use for the spa - and back up propane heaters for both as well.

I'm planning to oversize my filters (540 s.f. for pool and 200 s.f. for spa) to further reduce energy consumption.

We used 2" pipes for the plumbing (which after reading this forum, I'm beginning to think that we should have used 2.5" pipes) and have minimized Ts in favor of sweeps.

My primary question is regarding which IntelliFlo pump(s) to use to best conserve our precious electricity. We have the extra power requirements for the water heating through the solar collectors (about 10 feet off the ground). I'm confused about the efficiencies between the VS and VF and I'm afraid some of the info here in this thread is a bit more confusing for me.

I had been advised to get two EasyTouch systems (one for each the pool and spa) and am planning to integrate the IntelliChlor with the pool system.

Beyond the solar heating and filtration, I would only need to control lights, and be able to turn on spa jets at the spa (hopefully, with an auto-shut-off feature after 10-15 minutes). No waterfalls or other fancy features.

Does anyone have accurate info on how best to minimize the power consumption of these two systems? Would the 4x160 or the VF be the best option? Spending a few more bucks up front to save even just 50 watts per hour would be worth it.

Does anyone have accurate data on how much these pumps consume on an average day for a pool and spa this size? I saw a figure of 300 watts per hour. Is this the minimum I can budget for? Is it unrealistic to expect to use less than this?

In building the solar electric system for the hotel, we had only budgeted 2000 watt-hours (2kWh) per day per system (4kWh total for both). If the 300 watts-per-hour is accurate, maybe we could cut back usage to 7 hours per day.

One final question, regarding lights. Does anyone have power consumption numbers for the LED lights? I've seen low-end estimates of 50 watts for pool lights and 25 watts for spa lights. Again, I'm hoping to find even lower consumers that these. Does anyone know of the lowest consuming models of LED lights. I'm willing to sacrifice some brightness for less energy usage. Could I use the spa lights in the pool to save additional energy?

Many thanks in advance for your help and expertise. I appreciate any assistance you care to offer.

Cheers,

Erik

I have to admit that this thread has left me more confused than before. I am down to deciding between a VF or a VS or VS-SVRT(I think that is right...). I have a simple old pool with no waterfalls and no spa. I am converting to the intellichlor system and am also going to go with the clean and clear 520. Now the question is which pump and should I add the Easytouch? From an automation standpoint, I could eventually see myself running the pool light, perhaps a heater and perhaps an automatic cleaner. It sounds like I could add the VF and not add anything else and be fine (in other words, lights and anything else would be manual). Or, I could go with the VS and add the easy touch, and be mostly comparable to the VF functionality wise? It is very difficult to understand what I am missing out on by moving away from the VF towards the VS, if I partner the VS with an EasyTouch. Also, are there any differences between the two vs units other than the suction protection (the guy I am talking to about these two units told me he is not convinced yet of a need to go with the standard VS versus the VS+svrs when he can solve the issue by putting a special drain cover in place)? Will the VS when partnered with the EasyTouch tell me when the flow is reduced so that I know the likely culprit is that the cartridge needs to be cleaned? That seems like a really nice feature.

One other thing, energy efficiency and ease of use of my system are probably my two most important items. Perhaps that is counterintuitive but I dont want to be walking out and pressing buttons every day, etc.

The difference between the VF and VS is more about convience than which is more efficient. At the same flow rate and RPM, both pumps will use about the same energy.

The real difference is about how you set the pump. Speed or flow rate. Personally, I like the constant speed better because, energy use is directly proportional to the speed (cubed) of the pump so I would rather control that than flow rate.

However, for a specific turnover rate, the VF allows you to set that directly. Also, with a VF pump, if head loss increases (e.g. dirty filter, solar setting, water feature), the pump will automatically increase the speed and energy use to get back to the flow rate setting. This can be good or bad depending on the situation. However, with the controller, you can adjust the flow rate for each valve setting you have.

But to me, the VS has the same energy efficiency and if you really want to know what the flow rate is, you can get a flow rate meter to add to the plumbing for a lot less than the VF price difference.

If you don't mind doing a little math and installing a flow rate meter, then the VS should be fine. However, if you want a set and forget, the VF may be a better option.

MAS985. Thanks.
70 something posts and a year later and you provide the simple answer to a simple question.

And I didn't have to re-learn quantum physics.

I think i will get a VF.

The subject of reliability of the Pentair pumps came up earlier in this thread .... I'd like to add my recent experience.

I just installed a VF3050 and love it .... however the love affair lasted only 3 days. We had an area-wide power failure that wiped out the electronics (called the drive) of the pump. We are still waiting for Pentair to replace the "drive" on the pump. Their local warranty support vendor does not stock the drive, claiming that it is too expensive. Pentair refuses to ship me a drive, which is easy to replace (3 screws) due to "company policy".

So I agree with the assesment that to avoid an expensive paperweight, one should avoid this pump, which is sad as it is a great pump. Pentair needs to fix their product support.

What was the reason for the power outage? Was there a storm or a car accident that contributed to the outage, or worker error? I'd suggest filing a claim with the claims department of the power company. If lightning was the cause of the power outage, it might be tough getting anyone, including Pentair, to cover the drive.

Also, another option would be home owners insurance.

tsunami,

The power outage was likely caused by the weather but no lightning was in the area ... it was just raining. The house is served by a backup generator which came on during the outage. The pump is on a sub-panel with a surge protector across the 240 line. The surge protector indicates that no surge disabled the protector. The pool automation system kept working just fine as did all other electronic systems in the house. That is why I am concerned about the reliability of the VF3050 pump.

I had forgot to ask if you had a surge protector.....It sounds like you have your bases covered. So I take it that Pentair will cover it, but you have to go their warranty guys and it's just a waiting game. At least the pump still works!

I'd follow up with Pentair technical support to find out what they think the cause was, and how you could prevent it from happening again. It's a good thing you were well within the warranty period!

Does any know if the Intelliflo pumps will fit into the pot on my WhisperFlo 2HP (WFE-28)pump?

Yes, its a direct fit.

Thank you, that will save me some time if I switch over. Since everything is glued together including the threaded fittings into the pot I would have to replace two 3-way valves. Not a huge deal just more time and money.
I just installed a 2-speed motor and it seems to be adequate at low speed. However, as the filter pressure increases the flow dramatically decreases. I was thinking a little more RPMs would be nice maybe around 2,000 or so. I have been using PhosFree to remove the Phosphates, which are now low so the flow problem may go away and the 2-speed motor may be fine. I can buy a lot of DE for the price of a VF and Intellicom.

I am a little hesitant to install a variable speed pump. I had my variable blower motor fail on my house heater. Fortunately it was just inside the 5 year warranty but it still cost $280 in service calls. Could have been $280 plus over $750 for the motor.

For those of you who do not believe efficiency claims of the Pentair VF 3050, here is a link to a real world demonstration of the pump on YouTube. I am a pool owner and am not affiliated with Pentair. I just bought a VF 3050 myself.

That video isn't completely correct. To do it right, they should compare a whisperflo to intelliflo.

The video is spot on. It really doesn't matter since the motor on the right is a standard induction style motor. The point is that induction motors are so inefficient.

Scott

OMFG thats me

Hi dapooltech....have you been able to get a 2 speed yet for your comparison.

Scott....pump speed has a larger effect on pump efficiency than motor technology. If this comparison was with a 2 speed PSC pump, the differences would not be that large.

I am new to pool ownership (I live in California). Its a 14,000 gallon pool with SPA (filtration goes through SPA). It also has a waterfall (manual valve) and a gas heater. One thing is clear my electricity bill is way up with a pool. I am trying to make a decision on whether to replace the exisitng pump (2 HP single speed) with the Intelliflo VS or VF. I have an Intellitouch control system. With that in mind, do I get any additional benefit going with the VF over the VS? I really want to set up everything and not have to worry about making manual adjustments to different speeds because of filtration or sweeping or water feature. Again this question is more focused on the functionality rather than the efficiency of the pump(I am convinced of that already).. Any input would be very helpful..thnks in advance