So what licensed plumber would do unpermitted work?

What about the electrical - do you have the required outlet spacing and amperage?

Forgive me, but this is one of the most stupid posts I've read.

Geoffrey-
You've never done something you questioned later? Calling a post stupid isn't helpful.

Kitchenlover- I think you are right to be concerned. I see several things about that installation that are troubling. I suggest you get some licensed, competent professionals in to assess this and get it fixed. I don't know what to counsel you about the permit problem, but I think you can get the problems fixed pretty easily.

This post was edited by kudzu9 on Tue, Nov 4, 14 at 14:32

I'm not calling the OP stupid - but it was a really stupid, thoughtless string of decisions or non-decisions.

In many cities, once a remodel is so many dollars, they may require you to have things like smoke detectors, CO2 detectors, the proper number of outlets in the kitchen, etc.

I'm all for doing some minor improvements without a permit but a kitchen!

OP,

I'm not seeing anything to get really upset about.
I assume that the gas line is the black pipe over the air plenum. I can't tell what the material is that's being used. (is it black iron pipe?).

In general, you don't want a pipe in contact with the air handling equipment because it can vibrate. Usually the worst that will happen is that the sound will travel down the pipe. You could, but not very likely, run into wear issues due to the vibration. A simple foam pipe insulation spacer will solve both issues (sound and possible wear). Heat here isn't an issue.

A 7' flex line instead of 6' is again, nothing to get upset about.

My impression is that you are panicking over minor issues. That said, you aren't going to feel ok about it until you have it checked out.

@jjake: "My impression is that you are panicking over minor issues. That said, you aren't going to feel ok about it until you have it checked out."

AS I pointed out - not having a permit may be serious in some towns, and nothing in others. This is the problem as I see it.

It would be serious if when she goes to sell the home, and finds out she can't get a certificate of occupancy.

The question was regarding the quality of the work, specifically the gas line. When I said "you are panicking over minor issues, I was referring to the OP - I was not saying that about your response.

So, coming from a locality that's VERY lax about permits... how does local building authority prove work was done without a permit unless you tell them?

@jake: "how does local building authority prove work was done without a permit unless you tell them?"

If you have an older home, and have a brand new kitchen / bath many Realtors are under the obligation to make sure it was permitted.

This is also true for decks - which can be a real hazard, if improperly built.

Additionally, the inspectors hired by the buyer are really getting into the nitty-gritty about obvious renovations.

Inspectors will say that the kitchen doesn't have enough outlets or 2 20 amp circuits. Same for the bath. Which then raises the question about permits.

It sounds trivial - but if you tear out the walls - the building code wants the proper insulation, and vapor barrier, and the vapor barrier to be sealed at the floor and ceiling and windows. Yeah, I think it's some BS - but it can come bite you in the a**.

I've done unpermitted work in my home(s). But when it came to remodeling the kitchen and the two baths I got permits.

Thanks all for the feedback. I will look into the foam spacers.

This wasn't a major kitchen remodel on the order that you typically see around here. No walls were opened or moved. We simply hung cabinets in what was the dining room and moved all the appliances over, roughly 1-8 ft. Outlets were raised to counter height and those near the sink are GFCI.

Permits are sort of an optional thing around here for non-obvious work. This is a neighborhood mostly of 1940s and 1950s houses, most of which have had quite a few modifications, some permitted but a lot unpermitted. The time to look into permits for the kitchen was before we bought the house but there was so much to be done in terms of mortgage paperwork, plus work-work, I just never got around to it. Then we ordered the cabinets and my contractor was ready...I didn't want anything to hold us up.

And it's not pipe that we have but a flexible stainless steel tubing covered with black rubber. So why is 6 ft. the maximum approved length by code but 7 ft. is a no-no?

This post was edited by kitchenlover on Fri, Nov 7, 14 at 20:21

"And it's not pipe that we have but a flexible stainless steel tubing covered with black rubber. So why is 6 ft. the maximum approved length by code but 7 ft. is a no-no?"

Ok, I haven't seen everything, but typically when I've seen flexible gas line (Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing) it's got a yellow plastic jacket - which is the color code for gas line. Be sure they used CSST intended for gas line and not CSST intended for water lines. (I don't know the difference other than the jacket color - but I assume there is a difference).

You want to be sure that all CSST is grounded properly or it is a fire hazard. Google "CSST bonding" for more info on that.
Also, CSST, since it's a thin walled material, should not be in direct contact with vibrating metal such as air plenums. Since it's flexible, move it to create space and/or put a foam spacer in there.

To be honest, I don't know the answer to your question why is 6' ok and 7' not. What I suspect is that Code intended "Flexible Appliance connectors" to be just that and not be more than that (say a 30' "appliance connector" which would clearly be something else ). They had to make a cutoff someplace and so they set the length somewhat arbitrarily at 6 feet.

If someone else knows a better answer, I'd be happy to be informed.

Permits are never OPTIONAL anywhere in the US. Like every law... obey or choose not to and bear the legal and/or financial consequences.

We simply hung cabinets in what was the dining room and moved all the appliances over, roughly 1-8 ft. Outlets were raised to counter height and those near the sink are GFCI.

That does not sound like the outlets in the kitchen meet code.

"Permits are never OPTIONAL anywhere in the US."

Lurker, here in Indianapolis, the code enforcement department is on life support. There are no single family residential inspections and haven't been for a decade anyway. So, you pay a large fee for a permit and get absolutely nothing in return. Yes, you might get a stop work order if you are doing major work outside... but probably not.

You would be foolish to pay for a permit to do a basic kitchen remodel. It would be reasonable if for that fee you actually got an inspection, but you don't. The entire process is broken. It sucks because the shoddy work affects other homeowners.

The right or wrong or legality of an action or inaction is never dependent on the level of enforcement of any rule or law. We speed in our cars taking our chances if we'll get caught and that is a personal decision that only effects the individual, but when licensed tradespeople consciously violate the law by doing unpermitted work and get paid (handsomely) for it they deserve to have their licenses revoked. It is just that simple.

The regression is... first one ignores the rules, then one ignores safety, then one ignores quality, then one ignores the customer, then one ignores ethics, and then one makes excuses for all that.

In Indianapolis and other places where these problems exist we can be part of the problem or part of the solution and for those who are licensed and bonded to ply their trade there is only one ethical choice or they are not professionals and should be forced to seek another line of work.

This post was edited by justalurker on Sat, Nov 8, 14 at 20:39

Careful, you might fall off that pedestal.

I haven't been in the GC business for over 20 years. I do plenty of work on my own home though and wouldn't think of getting a permit unless it was a large exterior project.

Look, it's too bad that the City has decided they wanted to go this way - but you might as well just flush $500 down the toilet for all the good it will do you to pull a permit here. They just take your money, increase property taxes on the homeowner, never review the plans, never inspect the work. It sucks. It shouldn't be that way.

My ethics keep me well centered on that pedestal while I look down and see you and others who take the easy way out, rail about the system, and advocate others to ignore law and codes perpetuating the problems you complain about.

The good that permit will do you is IF the toilet leaks and floods the house homeowner's insurance will cover the damage IF the toilet installation was permitted and approved. No permit, no inspection, no green tag... no insurance coverage and claims adjusters are far more sticklers for details like permits and codes than the inspectors. What a treat it will be to pay $30k out of your pocket to repair water damage instead of that foolish $500 permit. Who will the fool really be?

Everyone has the right to do-it-yourself or screw-it-yourself in their own home as long as they understand the risks and they can get a permit to do it, but the line is drawn when a person relies on a professional and pays them to do the job right, according to code, and have the work inspected as the law requires.

If you take the time to read trade licenses and bond agreements tradespeople agree to abide by the governing laws and codes pertaining to their trades. By doing unpermitted work tradespeople put their licenses in jeopardy, but they put the safety of their customers at risk and expose them to repercussions they have no idea might come down the road.

Jake, I believe they used a new type of CSST such as CounterStrike, which is supposed to disperse energy, so supposedly no more fires from lightning strikes.

Why would the outlets not be to code if they're GFCI near the sink? Isn't that code?

Electrical for a kitchen is FAR more involved that just GFI ''near the sink. Plumbing is far more involved than rerouting a few supply lines. I suspect that you may have more than a few code issues. Code is there for you and your family's safety and nnot complying with it puts the risk on your shoulders for not complying.

Kitchenlover,

Thanks for that info. Looked up the product you mentioned... didn't know that was out there.

hollysprings,

Of course you want to do things to code - nobody is arguing against that.

That said, if there are minor code issues that someone asks about, It's fine to say "that's a minor issue and nothing to lose sleep over".

Lurker... look, nothing that you are saying is in any way applicable here. There's no inspection, no green tag, no questions from insurance companies, no disclosures to realtors, etc. I wish there was - but there isn't.

Pulling a permit in Indianapolis has absolutely no relationship to the quality of work here. None. There are large builders who pull a permit before building a house, and they do terrible work (houses not fastened to slabs, for example). There are other contractors who will pull a permit if you insist and do excellent work.

You aren't looking down on me at all. I haven't been doing GC work for 20 years in any kind of paid capacity. When I did, we still had a code enforcement department and I pulled permits.
I don't do it now for work on my own home and I'm quite fine with the ethics of it, thank you very much.

@Jake,

When you advocate NOT pulling permits on an open forum the reasons FOR pulling permits are relevant and more than applicable in this thread... especially to those who don't know better and can learn from the OP's experience and subsequent concerns.

Some people come to these forums knowing little to nothing seeking substantive information and to advocate ignoring laws and codes is irresponsible to say the least. You know better and yet you advise others to not get permits and seem proud of yourself for not getting them.

One either has ethics or one doesn't. Ethics aren't flexible to suit any situation or your opinion of the Constriction Department in Indianapolis.

This post was edited by justalurker on Sun, Nov 9, 14 at 17:43

Lurker,

This is getting far afield of the OP's question.

Please don't put words in my mouth or define my position for me, I can do that all by myself, thanks. I'm not advocating anything and I'm aware of the fact that people come to this board with various levels of knowledge and experience. In general, I think it's a good idea to pull permits - I'm having a problem with your absolutism and overplaying your hand.

I am relating the situation where I live. I don't know how common it is. It appears the OP is also in a locality that provides very little oversight -- so code inspectors won't be dropping out of Blackhawk helicopters. The OP seemed to have some irrational concerns about the work that was done. Especially since the work's already done, I think it best to address his/her actual concerns rather than going overboard with the lecture about permits. Although there have been posters hinting at concerns / issues I have yet to hear someone talk about a specific problem that has a basis in reality.

As for ethics, when someone takes your money (permits for minor remodels in Indianapolis) and gives you nothing in return for your money, that's theft, or fraud. I don't feel obligated to participate in that.

Not to belabor the subject - but you see that the OP is now sorta becoming the 'inspector' - worrying about the gas line, it's placement, the material, the grounding, the allowable length, etc.

If he is a licensed plumber it should be OK but that is something where a permit / inspection is a good idea.

"Permits are never OPTIONAL anywhere in the US. Like every law... obey or choose not to and bear the legal and/or financial consequences."

Our borough requires a septic permit and an As Is and....that's it.

No other permits or inspections required.

The OP's work, while maybe not up to code, will be perfectly legal here.

Broad sweeping generalizations are never accurate.

I recently had my tenants de-cap the hot and cold water lines OUTSIDE their unit and installed a old washer w.o my permission there and w.o permit in the City of Los Angeles. I am in the process of evicting them and go to court the 17th. I need to know where I can find in clear b & w language the chapter and verse of the Plumibng Code stating permits are required.

prince1956,

Start another thread please, don't hijack an existing thread.