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I need help/advice on toilet install
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Posted by tigerdunes (My Page) on Sun, Nov 15, 09 at 8:37
| I need some expert help/advice on toilets. Let me set the scene. I purchased a 70s two story home several months ago. It required some renovating including a total kitchen gutting with complete makeover, installing new hardward in areas and sand/seal existing hardwood, three bathroom redos and other misc work/improvements. Work is finally coming to a completion. Yes, there have been some minor hiccups mainly from GC not following instructions on paint schemes and misc fixtures but all fairly minor and easily correctable. Now to the bathrooms. GC came highly recommended but I have always believed you are paying for good project management and attention to details. Now to the toilets. We elected to keep and re-use existing toilets. This was a compromise to hold down expenses. During the renovations, the toilets were disconnected and stored in a storage room. This week it was time to re-install the toilets. One bathroom had new hardwood flooring and the other two new ceramic tile. GC notified me that there was a problem connecting the toilet to the flange.???? This is really Greek to me. The solution was that a carved out piece of wood was cut and shaped to fit the bottom of the toilet base. So the toilet has this piece of wood about 1 1/2" thick between the floor and the toilet base. As you can imagine, it looks terrible and I don't think I can accept this.
I expected there to be a trick in the plumbing trade to overcome this problem. There should not be anything unique about these toilets. Can any of the experts on this forum try to explain to me what has happened? Am I wrong that this should have been planned for before the bathroom redos? Finally, was this preventable? GC is telling me it will have to be this way or pull up flooring and start all over. I get the feeling that this is a big screwup on their part.
I am losing sleep over this.
I would appreciate all comments and advice.
TD
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Follow-Up Postings:
RE: I need help/advice on toilet install
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| Ok, I pretty much understand the issue. First, there is nothing unique about your toilets, and this should have been planned for by the GC. A typical toilet installation is simple and it goes like this: there is a flange (the part that meets the underside of the toilet) and this is supposed to be approximately flush with the finished floor. When the toilet is installed. a wax ring about 3/4" thick is set on top of the flange, and the toilet is set on top of this. The outlet from the toilet that sits on this wax ring is just a little higher than floor level. When the toilet is set in place and pushed down so its base rests on the floor, the wax gets somewhat squashed between the toilet outlet and the flange, and forms a seal. The flange also has a pair of holes that hold bolts, and these bolts come up through the two holes in the toilet base so that the toilet can be gently secured in place. Often, when a remodel is done, people have the problem that the new floor is higher than the old one and the existing flange may be too low. Often this can be fixed by using a thicker wax ring (or two). However, in your case it sounds like the flange is quite a bit higher than the floor and that's why the GC propsed that goofy fix. Is your floor lower than before the remodel? Or was the plumbing redone and the flange placed too high? I agree that this is unacceptable. There is no simple plumber's "trick" to fix this, and I don't know of a toilet that would accommodate this too-high flange. The only solution is to have the flange lowered so it's flush with the floor. A competent plumber should be able to do this without messing up your remodel in any significant way. Good luck and report back. |
RE: I need help/advice on toilet install
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| kudzu I do appreciate your reply. I have been studying on this "problem" all day. If I understand correctly the flange serves several purposes;it fits over the waste pipe,it connects to the floor, it connects to the base of the toilet. The funny thing about the floor is that it is level to the outside floor on the ceramic baths(upstairs). No issue except for the wooden spacer. The half bath with the hardwood flooring is located downstairs off the kitchen and breakfast area. This floor is lower than the kitchen floor but appears to be on same level as the rest of the ground floor. In fact GC said kitchen floor had to be raised about a 1/2" for some unknown reason. We accepted that and it looks fine-not an issue. It seems that the waste pipe is too high and should be cut down to solve this "problem". Is that a reasonable course of action? I hope to see GC tomorrow. Post back if you see my reply. And thanks again. |
RE: I need help/advice on toilet install
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| It sounds like the floors should be at about the right height...except for the problem you have! Did you have a chance to look at what the flange height was in relation to the floor height before the toilet was set? The flange shoud have been approximately flush with the finished floor. Also, are these new flanges which replaced the existing ones, or are they the ones that were in place before? |
RE: I need help/advice on toilet install, part 2
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| I forgot to add that, yes, the flanges should be lowered so you can dispense with those stupid spacers. I've never seen anything like that as a fix, and I imagine that your whole problem is a result of the flanges. I think you now have a good understanding of how things should be, so don't accept any more half-baked "fixes" from this contractor. The reason I asked about whether the flanges are new or old is because I was wondering if someone installed new ones that were set too high, or if the contractor left the old ones in place and messed up that way. In any case, the contractor should have caught this and he needs to fix it. |
RE: I need help/advice on toilet install
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| i just retiled my bath and installed the toilet yesterday. your GC coordinates the toilet being removed, flooring removed and reinstalled so it is up to him to verify the flange height is proper. 1-1/2" height issue? did they use dynamite to remove the old floor? tell the GC to move the flange height. who installed the toilet? a plumber would see the flange height and have something to say. |
RE: I need help/advice on toilet install
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| Per code, the underside of the flange is to be in firm contact with the finished floor, which leaves the top of the flange extended above the floor about 1/4". |
RE: I need help/advice on toilet install
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| Even if the GC has hit a point where he's losing money on this job (tough noogies), it's hard to believe he'd want his name on such a total KLUGE and jury-rig as you've described! UNacceptable! I still haven't ascertained whether the flange is original and the floor was lowered, or someone blindly installed a new flange without any reference datum of where the new floor height would be. Either way, GC screwed up. PS: Don't let Algore find out you're re-using the old "evil" water-wasting toilets. ;') |
RE: I need help/advice on toilet install
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| tigerdunes, You have every right to go ballistic (figuratively speaking) and demand it gets done correctly. Don't get caught up by the nonsense chatter. This is a major screw-up and only a dope (or laborer who was just doing what he was told with no oversight) wouldn't have seen a problem in plain view while the floor was still getting done. That's the bottom line. |
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