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workingmomx3

Water Softener: Kinetico vs. Ecowater vs Culligan and other ???

workingmomx3
16 years ago

Hello all,

I have read through many of the previous responses to questions about water softeners. There is some very knowledgeable people here and I hope they can provide me with some assistance.

After reading this forum, I understand that I've overlooked the first step in my search for a water softener: a water analysis. I'll get one done, if I can convince my husband. Moving on from there, I already have estimates from three companies selling Kinetico, Ecowater and Culligan water softeners. Each local retailer has a long history of service in the area, at least 20+ years. Each of the systems have been installed in various homes in the neighborhood and all the homeowners are pleased with their systems. However, most simply picked a company out of the phone book and went with one. Also, most did not compare systems, or if they did, they simply went with the cheapest. Bottom line, they are all happy with their systems, so they don't worry about them.

What are your thoughts about the following systems (all prices include installation):

Kinetico - $3950 ($2796 w/o R/O unit)

DECHLOR1060 Upflow Dechlorinator, CAH10MB Filter Housing, K2040 Water Softener, KRO+DX Deluxe R/O Drinking Water System w/tank, and 5MS 5 micron sediment filter

Ecowater - $3398 ($2449 w/o R/O unit)

ERR 3500 water refining system, ERO 375 R/O (also quoted the ESD 2500 at $1749, or $700 less than the ERR 3500)

Culligan - $2352 ($2053 w/o R/O unit)

Culligan Gold Series (10"), Good Water Machine

If I were to look at price only, I would go with either the cheaper Ecowater system w/R/O at $2698 or the Culligan system. At almost $4k, the Kinetico system seems greatly over priced. But is it? I don't know if I'm comparing apples vs. oranges. And the vendors don't give you much to go on to compare specs. And then there are the stories that Culligan will more than make up their $$ because they require expensive house calls to change filters (you can't purchase your own and DIY).

Would anyone care to share your thoughts or recommendations?

Some additional background: There are 5 people living here (1 teenager! who showers at least 2x's per day). Our water provider switched to a different well and the hardness has increased to about 18 grains.

I have numerous houseplants which will be a concern if I don't put in the R/O, correct?

I seldom do exterior watering except for occasional deep root watering of a few trees. However, I plan to put some additional beds for privacy at the rear of my lot. There will be large trees/shrubs that will require much watering to be established. None of the vendors mentioned bypassing the exterior hose bibs until I asked. Also, one suggested using potassium chloride instead of sodium chloride to eliminate the need to bypass the exterior hose bibs and for the house plants. Another insisted that potassium choloride would cause a sludge build-up. Who am I to believe?

Thank you in advance for all your help.

Comments (82)

  • healthy_guy
    12 years ago

    I've done a lot of research in finding the right system and company to install a softener in my home. You would not believe how much Culligan, Water Depot, Ecowater and all other big name companies mark up their prices on their water softeners. Not to mention their warranties are very limited and usually in the 1 to 5 year range.

    I found a company here in Ontario that has really good prices on water softerners with really good warranties. Their Chlor-a-soft unit softens water AND removes chlorine from your city water. Their prices are very good and their warranties are amazing. For the chlor-a-soft it's a 20 year warranty on all parts (not just the tank or head valve unit). Excalubur Water Systems manufactures them and have been in business for almost 15 years.

    The company I got my softener and RO from is Waterwork Company. URL is posted below (http://www.waterworkcompany.com). They have a promotion right now for a Chlor-A-Soft 32k grain water softener and 5-stage Reverse Osmosis for $1250 plus tax. And this includes installation, 20-year warranty and free service in Ontario.

    If you live outside of their installation area they can sell and ship you the unit for a discount, but you will either have to install it yourself or arrange for a local plumber to install it for you. If you have the unit shipped to you, they include a self-installation kit with manual. The installation kit comes with all the pex fittings and parts to easily do the installation yourself without the need to do any soldering with copper, or crimping with pex.

    Hope this helps some people save money and buy a quality unit that is actually better built and more efficient than the big companies that sell their units at ridiculous prices.

    Here is a link that might be useful: WaterWork Company

  • James Martinez
    11 years ago

    Greetings! I am a new member and this is my first posting.

    I was quoted $4295 for the ERR3500R20 installed via Costco membership that includes a $500 Costco gift card. I live in Orange County, California and I am wondering if I am being overcharged for the unit. Previous postings show the unit priced at $2449 installed.

    Thank you in advance for your response.

  • justalurker
    11 years ago

    Hi James,

    Welcome to the forum.

    Your question will get the attention it deserves when you >b>start a new thread rather than resurrect a 5 year old thread.

    In short, the first question is whether that softener is adequate to treat your water. Without knowing your water conditions and water usage there is no correct answer let alone is that softener priced right?

  • hawaiianhillbilly
    11 years ago

    I wanted to post a new thread, but for some reason the gardenweb wouldn't let me.

    We moved into a house in '05 that had a Culligan softener from previous owner.

    We've ALWAYS had trouble with iron and sulfur odor, and have had Culligan do about 4 service calls since we've been here. Last year, we were told that the bladder of our water tank had burst, so we replaced it. This did NOT stop the iron/sulfur probs. Now the Culligan guy says we should get a Culligan WaterRight system for $2500. We've also researched a LindySpringSystem for about the same. My question is, these both seem to be pricey, and the last recomendation didn't pan out (much to our dismay and pained pocketbooks). What is the general advise for this?

    Is there any info on removing iron and/or sulfur?

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    11 years ago

    There are numerous threads - do a search on the bottom of the plumbing page for iron and you will find them. Once you've read a bit, come back and ask specific questions.

    Complete water analysis is critical before making a decision about iron/sulfur removal from water. A certified lab can do the analysis. You need to know: pH, TDS, hardness, ferric iron, ferrous iron, manganese, sulfates, H2S, nitrates.

    Here are some options in a nutshell:

    1) Softener: A softener with specialty resin is capable of removing dissolved iron, up to 7 ppm (mg/L) but asking a softener to remove iron at those upper limits is really pushing it so I would not recommend this method. In addition, a softener would become plugged if you have particulate iron. Additionally, a softener will only work if you first remove the sulfur, so is not a good option as a stand-alone treatment.

    2) Oxidation/Filtration: An oxidizer such as ozone, air, or chlorine may be used to react with the iron and force it to become particulate iron that can then be removed via filtration. A typical setup would involve the oxidizing unit, a holding tank, then a media filter. This type of system is not something your typical homeowner will be able to maintain themselves - you would want a water treatment pro that you trust.

    3) Oxidizing filtration media: This type of treatment consists of a sealed tank filled with one of several media. Water passes through and is oxidized and filtered by the media. These are relatively easy to operate and what I would recommend for the average homeowner. There are basically three different media that can be used:

    a) manganese greensand: water runs through for treatment. The media must be regenerated with potassium permanganate (care must be taken with dealing with potassium permanganate as it readily dies organic material, such as your skin, a purple-brown color)

    b) birm: This media acts as a catalyst to force oxidation of iron. While it does not need to be regenerated, it does need fairly high dissolved oxygen in the water. If you water does not have adequate dissolved oxygen (and it probably doesn't since it is well water), air injection would be necessary.

    c) pyrolox: an ore that oxidized then filters the iron out. It does not need regeneration, but needs to be backwashed (to rinse out the iron) at a high rate, 25 - 30 gallons per square foot. This is my personal preferrence, but understand that the backwash rate is critical.

    d) terminox; very similar to pyrolox, but uses a much more reasonable amount of water for backwash.

  • joeinvestor
    11 years ago

    I'm really surprised at the (high) cost of the Kinetico/Ecowater/Culligan water softeners.

    Our household is at a crossroads now as our 26+ year old water softener has a stuck brine valve, and I've called the local water softener dealer who is also a Kinetico dealer.
    This water softener was purchased as a former rental unit so I don't know how old it actually is but it has served our family well.
    Given the very high price of these units, I'm thinking it might be more cost effective to purchase and install a Myers Water Ace which can be had for around $750. I doubt we would save anything with a Kinetico over its lifespan.
    For the record, we are on city water and our hardness is 6 GPG.
    If we were on well water, I think the Kinetico would be more suitable.
    Does anyone have any experience with the Myers Water Ace water softeners?

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    11 years ago

    If you are going to DIY install anyway, look around on the internet. You can get a MUCH better softener for the same price as the dreadful box store variety. If you would like assistance with sizing and programming, you will need to provide some information:

    1. Water analysis. Since you are on city water, you can get their quarterly reports. They won't be exactly what you have at your house, but are a good start. Water can pick up a few things along the way to your home, particularly iron (which makes a big difference in softener sizing)

    2. How many people in your home? Do have frequent over-night guests, or expect the population of your home to increase or decrease in the next few years?

    3. If your city provides you with a bill that includes the amount of water you use each month, what is the average usage?

    4. Any fixtures that use a large amount of water, such as a jetted tub or multi-head shower?

  • justalurker
    11 years ago

    Joe,

    Kinetico, Culligan, and the other national brand softeners are priced high... no doubt about it. You'll also be marrying the local dealer for parts and service cause there are no third party alternatives and they will charge you for the privilege of owning their hardware. Good product but not necessarily better than industry standard hardware except in some unique circumstances.

    IIRC the Meyer's softeners are industry standard softeners not the typical box store disposable softeners. I recall they are sold through some Lowes in some marketing areas. I think they use Fleck or Clack control valves which are first rate. I'd investigate them before crossing them off your list.

    You might want to hit the Yellow Pages under "water treatment" and look for local companies that don't purvey a BRAND NAME. They are independent water treatment companies and will be selling industry standard softeners and should be reasonable in price and offer service and a warranty that's worth something.

    If I could buy an industry standard softener at a comparable price to the net locally from someone I can look in the eye who will stand behind what they sell I wouldn't be in a big hurry to order one online with no service to speak of.

  • goodgarden
    10 years ago

    Hello,

    It is good to hear about these prices on water softenersin this discussion. I have been curious about the prices on these ones:

    http://www.searchwaterfilters.com/water-softener.php
    http://www.searchwaterfilters.com/culligan/water-softener.php

    Here is a link that might be useful: water softener

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    10 years ago

    Wow, goodgarden. That site you linked is just dreadful. It is full of incorrect information, written by folks that have little understanding of water treatment.

  • phyoung1326
    10 years ago

    I have just been quoted $3650 for a kinetico with r/o system. I will make sure to leave my outside hoses unsoftened per previous posts suggest. My water quality analysis deems I need to soften the water. I am definitely capable of DIY but don't know where to get a quality product in my region near Erie pa. Anyone have suggestions on a product to soften my water at a much lower upfront and long term cost? The culligan and ecowater are also unavailable as DIY set ups.

  • majsterkowicz
    10 years ago

    Hello,

    I am looking for a new water softener and before I purchase one I would like to learn, educate myself on those devices.
    The more I read about water softeners the more I am confused.

    Here are voice for Kinetic, because for some it works and voices against it, because it seems like another marriage to get into. Two marriages at the same time don't work.

    Noticed one thing. Nobody mentions water softeners from Sears, as an example.
    Don't they do the job which they supposed to do?

  • Bullet777
    9 years ago

    To Alice in Wonderland...

    Just a quick note. The carbon in an EcoWater refiner is NOT mixed with the resin bed; it is separated inside the unit.

  • Bullet777
    9 years ago

    To 'Smarge' re: Hard water is water that is full of minerals that are GOOD for you and drinking distilled water (reverse osmosis) denies your body of a major source of minerals your body needs. It is better for you to drink hard water than RO water.

    There are three points in this paragraph which are categorically untrue.

    1. the minerals in hard water are NOT good for you; they are inorganic and our bodies cannot assimilate them

    2. distilled and R/O water are not the same

    3. it is absolutely NOT better for you to drink hard water, than R/O water

    By the way, your miele dishwasher will work just fine on soft water, with a pure soap product designed for use on conditioned water (much less expensive than store brands)

  • Glowplugv
    9 years ago

    It think there is some mis-information about Ecowater systems. I was in Costco and picked up the brochure on the ECR-3502. It is a two tank system (salt storage and resin tanks). There is no carbon in it. There is an under-bedding of washed quartz to aid in the regeneration cycle. It has mixed layer of fine and standard size resin. The timer function is based on an algorithm that tracks water usage and sets up regeneration schedules to match it. It has a wifi remote which can send email and text messages including excessive water usage. This WIFI remote can also monitor a reverse osmosis system if you install it too. My water hardness is 22 grains which fits easily into the top treatment range of 60 grains for this model. I looked up the reports on Angie's List for the local Kinetico and Ecowater distributors. The Ecowater distributor over the last two years had all "A" ratings. The local Kinetico distributor had 17% F grades. I think any of these units will work well for you but you really need to look at the quality of the vendor in your area before you make any decision.

  • grantpremier
    8 years ago

    At Ecowater

    Our single and two tank water softening systems remove calcium, magnesium, sediment, and iron from the water. Removing these hard-water elements will ensure a quality experience in your family's water consumption.


    For more info please see

    http://ecowaterorlando.com/info/

  • biermech
    8 years ago

    You didn't mention the repeated service calls that they will have using an EcoWater system. I was a service mgr for an Eco dealer and I hated the fact that I was the one dealing with the customers after the sale trying the explain why they had trouble but their neighbor that bought a Fleck never had problems.

  • gnewcss1
    8 years ago

    I just have to say that after reading all of these comments, I feel that I am back to square one! I suppose we all have our preferences, but I have owned a Culligan water softener for about 30 years, we have very hard well water, we have never had a service call, the outside water was bypassed without any pre-ordering and we have not had one bit of trouble from it until recently. It has quit working properly and we are looking to buy another softener, we did consider the idea of having it reconditioned, but I feel with technology they have most certainly made strides to a better unit by now and feel that it is best to buy a new one. I have read through these comments and although I feel it may be cheaper to go to my local Lowe's or Home Depot to purchase one, we have been well served by Culligan and will probably go back and buy from them! Thanks to everyone for their imput.

  • homedude3
    8 years ago

    Taking the risk of resurrecting an ancient thread here, but this is a good thread. There are some good comments here; I even see evidence of continued growth in knowledge/experience/opinions among the more active here, which is also good. My requirements are that I would rather hire and depend on a local experienced dealer/service department for a proper install, and I want a dealer who will be around 25 years from now. I have confidence in my local Kinetico dealer. I know the owner, and the previous owner, and I like the way they do business. So I can't agree more with lurker in that for people who don't want to maintain their own system, the most important question is "dealer, dealer, dealer".


    If I put a system together myself, then I'm responsible for it, including any hardness breakthroughs that damage my RO system, or any mistakes I make. and even though I may be able to find a $100 replacement controller board today, for example, that does not mean I'll be able to find it 25 years from now for that price when the designs change and new softeners use different boards.

    I also wanted to temper the enthusiasm for bypassing outdoor faucets: the real risk you take in watering plants with sodium ions depends on the plants and upon the hardness of your water (harder water means more sodium). I've been watering front yard plants for 25 years and haven't lost a one, due to sodium poisoning. I asked the Kinetico installer to plumb the front faucet soft to advantage car washings... 25 years later I'm still happy with that decision.

  • Natte Scott
    7 years ago

    I was quoted nearly $1900 for the Kinetico 2030s dual tank system. Seems reasonable, but these are pricey units i guess. No electricity, which seems ok but old school.

  • celticson
    6 years ago

    If your daughter/son is taking two showers per day, she/he is doing irreparable harm to their skin and they will have wrinkles 50 years before schedule.

  • Jake The Wonderdog
    6 years ago

    It's ok, the post is almost 10 years old now so the teenager is grown and probably graduated college by now.

  • debiosburn
    6 years ago

    I am doing my own research on whole house filters and undersink units and the local company carries ecosmart. We have city water in Florida that now has chlorimine and chlorine which makes it even more of a challenge. All the health gurus are preaching clean filtered mineral water over RO drinking water. What I have found is to have a local distributor they know the water they are dealing with but also believe in what they are selling. Everybody is an expert but everyone is right so who do you believe? It seems to me that most of the people that have problems have well water but those with city have the chlorimines and heavy metals....you would think by now if it was made easier to pay for the extra filtration that the cities aren't doing they would make it advantages for us to do it ourselves.....more people would do .....but it's so hard to believe anyone and the science behind our water and what their standards for us are.

  • Jake The Wonderdog
    6 years ago

    Rather than jump on to the end of a 10 year old post with an unrelated post, why not start a new thread. If there's a specific question, someone might be able to help you.

  • mrymadonna719
    6 years ago

    GREAT IDEA. I have a kinetico with the drinking water filter system and I love it. I would recommend it to anyone. My drinking water is a 6 whatever the parts per is, bottled water is at least 15. I water my plants with no issues. 6 bags of salt lasts me 8-9 months. Changing the filter is a piece of cake...UTUBE it. My water filters need to be changed every 3 years. I have a well so my water had very high rust. I have no issues anymore. Good luck with your choice.

  • Jake The Wonderdog
    6 years ago

    umm... so a person creates a account to make a glowing review on a 10 year old thread and that is their only comment. This looks like spam to me.

  • Tommy D.
    5 years ago
    I just had someone from Nuvia come to test my tap water and here are the results:

    - TDS: 490 PPM
    - Chlorine: 0.5%
    - Hardness: 16 GPG

    He pitched two systems:

    Nuvia Signature (single tank + Clarity RO) - $4995

    Nuvia Pro (double tank + Clarity RO) - $5995

    Does anybody have any experience with them? It is significantly more expensive than all the systems discussed so far, but maybe you really do get what you pay for in this instance. They also throw in a 5-year supply of natural soap/cleaning supplies (no water softeners added) and a lifetime warranty.
  • Jake The Wonderdog
    5 years ago

    Tommy, start a new thread. This one is 12 years old.

    Here's a clue:
    Do you need RO? (probably not).
    What does a good softener cost? (About $600)

  • Tommy D.
    5 years ago
    Thanks, I didn't notice the date lol.
  • Paul Acovio
    4 years ago

    I’ve been to several water softener businesses in San Antonio. between Culligan, Kinetico, eco water, puronics, and reionator. Seems puronics And reionator have the best whole home systems from the presentations I’ve received. ecowater guy focused on saving money on soap, Culligan focused on brand name and business, Kinetico focused on saving energy cuz it isn’t plugged in. the puronics reionator sellers were both very informative on what their units do, and how they are different from other brands and what they are the same in. I’ve never heard of reionator and the puronics it said that’s what nasa uses. Anyone know if these are reputabl? i can’t seem to find reviews on either puronics or reionator.

  • debiosburn
    4 years ago

    Good luck....

  • Jake The Wonderdog
    4 years ago

    Paul Acovio

    This thread is from 2007. Start a new one... please!
    Note that Kinetico's focus on "not being plugged in" is pretty silly. The power required is about as much as an alarm clock.

    Also note that a good quality water softener is about $600 and that's all most people need.


  • HU-69347981
    4 years ago

    I'm in South Carolina and I was approached by a Eco water salesman at Costco. The home water lifetime filtration system including installation and a 500 dollar cash Costco card cost $6999. With lifetime service. What's wrong with package? I want good drinking water and good water throughout the house. I'm confused with all that I've read.

  • Jake The Wonderdog
    4 years ago

    Please start a new thread - this is from 2007.

    What's wrong with the package is that it's $7000, it's mostly snake oil, and I suspect that you aren't fully understanding what 'lifetime service" means (guessing that it doesn't include everything you think it does).


  • Pam Begoske
    4 years ago

    Trying to decide whether or not to purchase a Kinetico system. $6000. Is a lot of money

  • Jake The Wonderdog
    4 years ago

    Let me help you with that... No, you don't want to.

  • User
    4 years ago

    In the "Other" category of this thread, " Water Softener: Kinetico vs. Ecowater vs Culligan and other???" we wonder whether Kinetico or Rayne systems would best suit our situation. We have a well with a low flow and storage tank to provide enough water for simultaneous showers and landscape watering. This excellent thread would indicate that I want to bypass my outside faucets and contract with a reliable dealer for continuing service. In this case both local dealers have excellent reputations for service. So can anyone on this blog advise me about Rayne vs Kinetico? How do they differ and what advantages/disadvantages should I consider?

  • Jake The Wonderdog
    4 years ago

    You are tagging on to a 12 year old thread.
    It's good to start a new one. Seriously.


  • jarchazk
    4 years ago

    Water filter systems


  • metcollier
    2 years ago

    Help!

  • Melissa Winsby
    2 years ago

    I’m looking at getting a water filtration system as our city’s water quality has seriously declined. Not bad smelling, but incredibly hard and noticeably worse to many of us in the last year. In reading thru all the posts I’m wondering if Jake the Wonderdog can come out and set me up with something. Only 14 years into this thread. Seriously, thanks for the laughs!

  • Jake The Wonderdog
    2 years ago

    You probably don't need a filtration system, you probably need a water softener.

  • goodgarden
    2 years ago

    That is a good point about getting a water softener. You should get your plumbing inspected too. I found really useful & detailed information here Water Softeners information

  • PRO
    aquahow
    2 years ago

    I was wondering,as this article states, does Culligan water softeners any good ?

  • Jake The Wonderdog
    2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    @aquahow

    Define "good".

    Do they provide soft water? Yes, like any other ion exchange water softer that is properly sized and set up, it will provide soft water. The aren't doing anything that makes the water "more soft".

    Is it more reliable than other softeners? They are probably more reliable than very low-end water softeners, but very reliable softeners are readily available built with industry standard parts for (Fleck control valves, for example) for not much money.

    Does it provide better value? Value driven customers can probably do better by ordering a Fleck based softer online from Amazon.

    Do they provide better service? There's a large network of Culligan dealers who can install and service a water softener. If you need that level of service and want a national brand name, they probably aren't a bad choice. Local water treatment companies can also do a very good job, without the cost of a national brand.

    So, what sets them apart? Water softening is a commodity business - there's no secret sauce.

    There's no water softer that's going to make your water "more soft".

    There are some gimmicks out there - such as twin tanks and units that don't require electricity - that don't provide any real tangible benefits.

    Some of the hardware is better than others. But there is industry standard, highly reliable and highly serviceable hardware available for moderate cost.

    They have a memorable brand and a dealer network.

  • Natte Scott
    2 years ago

    I agree. I went with a very reputable local business that installs and services well known

    national brand - not Culligan because I was not satisfied with the salesman nor the equipment. The local company installed Kinetico products with reputable quality.

  • Jeannie Albright
    last year

    Moving to an apartment. And wondering if I could get acc coucould get a water bottle dsystem with Culligan



  • Sara Wahto
    8 months ago

    Jake the wonder dog are you still out there after what, how many years now on this thread??

  • Jake The Wonderdog
    8 months ago

    @Sara Wahto

    Yes, still here! Was started 15 years ago.

  • cathy1duncan
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    We need to reduce scale and other hard water effects of our house water. At the same time I thought we should include a water filter for chlorine and other contaminants. We have "medium" hard water and slightly elevated chlorine levels. Then I was thinking of changing to a tankless so that we don't have a hot water issue for showering/tub filling. We never clean/descale our current tank. There are so many options and this thread helped even though its really old.


    What I'm taking away from this thread and others is the salt/potassium based softner with a fleck or Clark control valve is the only way to go and a carbon filter should handle the chlorine. No TAC or magnetic devices. Also, I don't need to go with those brands like Culligan, Puragain or Life Source to solve the water issues. We also have a Bodyglove water filter attached to our drinking water spout.

    Is there anything else I should consider?

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