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64k or 48K ... I think they're overszing me???

Posted by ChillerGuy (My Page) on
Fri, Sep 6, 13 at 12:40

* 2600 sq ft House (Just built/PEX tubing)
* 2 Full, 1 half bath (No jetted/deep tubes & no body sprayers)
* 3 Adults, 1 child (10yrs), 2 small dogs
* Average water use

Community Well water:
Hardness = 16GPG
Iron = .3 (point 3)
TDS = 301

I spoke with someone from a website and this is what they suggested (64k wth Clack WS1-ee and the SST-60 resin )

http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/ClackWS1MeteredSmartMemoryWaterSoftenerModelWS164K-idv-1829-125.html

When I did my numbers (and I could be wrong which is why I'm here) I came out with 48k with same valve (Clack ws1-ee)

She told me I would backwash every 12days with the 64k and every 9 days with the 48k.

I have just read some horror stories about over sized systems and I'm trying not to become one of them. I have read through quite a few messages on here and there appears to be some very knowledgeable people on here. I hope one of them can help me out.....

This post was edited by ChillerGuy on Fri, Sep 6, 13 at 16:00


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: 64k or 48K ... I think they're overszing me???

Where are your numbers coming from? If a water test then how long ago? How new is the well?

Need more info...
iron = .3 what? .3ppm? ferrous or ferric?
pH?
Manganese?
nitrates?
bacteria?
sodium?
arsenic?
chlorine?

Also need to know SFR... here's how

You will need a watch with a second hand and a 1 or 5 gallon container to measure your flow rate with the instructions below.

1. Using the bathtub as the measuring point, open BOTH the hot and cold water faucets completely open. If the tub has one faucet then use an outside hose bib.
2. If you have a well water supply, wait until the pump kicks on before continuing.
3. Place either a 1 or 5 gallon container under the faucet and measure the amount of time it takes to fill the container in seconds.

Be advised that Clack cut off online sales of their control valves a ways back. If you are dealing with an online seller who offers a Clack control valve and is not delivering and installing the softener at your location I would investigate that seller.

This post was edited by justalurker on Fri, Sep 6, 13 at 13:28


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RE: 64k or 48K ... I think they're overszing me???

Thanks for the reply...
I will perform the SFR test when I get home from work.
As far as the other questions
Chlorine = 0
Arsenic = 0
Iron = .3 ppm

And that's all the info I was given.
I just moved into a new house so my funds are drained as to spending the money on a "real" test.
As to being a Clack, it didn't say Clack but rather WS1-EE ( I assumed it was - my mistake)

Thanks again


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RE: 64k or 48K ... I think they're overszing me???

Geez, this is the week for people wanting to size softeners and not willing to gather the data to do it.

When you move in to a house with a well you should be provided with the results of a limited water test to prove that the well meets legislated water quality. They typically do not test for all the stuff that makes the water icky and hard and taste bad and stain. That is for the homeowner to do but no one tells them. The builder and Realtor don't care if you waste a water heater in just a couple or a few years or kill your dishwasher and fridge ice maker in short order or stain or corrode all those beautiful new fixtures or there looks like there's an oil slick on top of your coffee.

There is no way to correctly size a softener without specific details of the water conditions, details of the water use, and details of the occupancy (people, bathrooms, hot tubs, et al), and details of the SFR and plumbing.

You can incorrectly size a softener using vague data or no data at all or by using a softener sizing chart at almost every online softener huckster's web site.

Need to know the size of the plumbing at the intended softener location and is there a drain and electric outlet for the softener?.

If you want REAL treated water that is nice and safe then you need to spend money on a REAL water test.

WS1-EE is a Clack valve designation so there's something fishy. Besides the WS1-EE is really not the valve you want..


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RE: 64k or 48K ... I think they're overszing me???

I can understand your frustration with people not providing all the proper information. I am in the heating/cooling industry and sizing a house properly is only done with the right info (ie wall insulation, window style, etc). Sometimes (most times) the homeowner does not know all of this info and I have to make my best educated guess if they don't want me tearing into their walls. I guess I'm hoping you will do the same here with me.

I did a flow test and came up with 41 seconds for a 5gal bucket. This was done at the hose bib as I have a single faucet at my tubs.

You mentioned I would not want the WS!-EE Valve - why is that and what would you suggest?

I couldn't agree more about "The builder and Realtor don't care if you waste a water heater in just a couple or a few years or kill your dishwasher and fridge ice maker in short order or stain or corrode all those beautiful new fixtures or there looks like there's an oil slick on top of your coffee."

To state again the info I DO know is:
Hardness: 16 gpg
Iron: .3 ppm
TDS: 301 ppm
Chlorine: 0 ppm
Arsenic : 0 ppm
Flow Test 41 secs to fill 5 gal bucket

3/4" (7/8" OD) PEX Tubing Main feeding my header valve which then has 1/2" PEX feeding house. Each appliance has its own shut off valve at the header.

House was prepped for Water Softener (3/4" PEX)
(ie drain, electrical outlet, and bypass)

I wish I could provide you with all your asking but this is the best I can do with what I have right now. I need to get something ordered in the next day or so to try and save my appliances (as well as my marriage - wife is on my ass to get rid of the water spots) .
I would appreciate any advice you could give me as to the proper size and valve recommendation. I fully understand that you can only give me your best guess without having all the information and that would be better than my just hoping and guessing it's right.


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RE: 64k or 48K ... I think they're overszing me???

The Clack mystery is solved. I looked at the URL you edited into your first post and that is not a Clack valve. The URL is old and probably reused from when they did sell Clack. It is a Fleck 6700XTR control valve and that seller has named that softener a CS1-EE where a Clack control valve would be a WS1-EE. Nevertheless, the Fleck 6700 is not my favorite valve and they don't offer a gravel underbed which is a good thing to have. You don't need SST60 resin with only .3ppm iron but we still don't know which iron you have so we don't know whether a softener can treat it. You NEVER want to go 12 days between regenerations when you have iron and you should be doing some minimal resin cleaning maintenance. There are better sellers out there if you feel you must buy on the net, but buying on the net there is no service by definition and warranty parts replacement doesn't happen in real time and you do their labor for them at no charge.

You might get a more realistic SFR if you use a hose bib or faucet closer to your well pressure tank and before you distribution manifold.

That said...

I appreciate you understanding that data and specs are needed from your own experience so you, more than the average poster, should know better than to ask someone else to do what you know is wrong and you will usually end up not getting what you need and still have water treatment problems .

This is not a situation where the homeowner would incur considerable cost by cutting into walls, repairing sheet rock, and repainting. We're talking modest cost for a comprehensive water test by a certified lab compared to the money wasted buying the wrong softener or not treating a water condition the homeowner doesn't even know they have and would want to treat if they did know.

Buying a house with a well comes with more responsibility than a house on a water system. YOU have the responsibility of making the water nice and SAFE. You should be testing annually for at least nitrates and bacteria to protect yourself and your family. There is a learning curve and maintenance to learn or pay to have done and expenses to bear, but you bought the house so all that is on you and you can do it. What you can't do is NOT DO IT. Your Realtor and builder should have explained this to you or you should have discovered it when you did your homework while considering the house. You did research wells and living on them before you signed on the dotted line... didn't you?

When your 10 year old gets sick and you rush him/her to the doctor do you tell the doc... no labs, no tests, just give me your best guess what's wrong with my kid?

When you make the wrong decision because you didn't get a comprehensive water test from a certified lab and you still have water spots and calcium deposits and other problems you didn't treat cause you didn't know you had those problems cause you didn't get a lab test... think your wife will be easier on you after spending money for a softener that isn't sized correctly and not treating other water problems you have cause you didn't know you have them cause you didn't get a lab test?

I'd really like to help you and the other few people this week who asked the same thing as you, but I don't guess, assume, or average water softener sizing.

I'm going to stop trying to explain to posters why they need to provide the data before a softener can be correctly sized and just not reply to these questions. Wastes my time, hurts my fingers, and you know better than to ask me to do what you know is not going to get you what you need.

Sorry

This post was edited by justalurker on Sat, Sep 7, 13 at 11:07


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RE: 64k or 48K ... I think they're overszing me???

I was able to obtain a water analysis report from our home owners association for MY HOUSE that was recently built (1 month ago). It was taken last month as they are required to provide quarterly reports AND ALSO reports for new houses built being this is a community well. Here is all the info I can gather off of it.

Arsenic: 10ppb (billion)
Fluoride: 4ppm
Hardness: 17gpg
iron: .3 ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm
Nitrite: 1ppm
Magnesium:
Sulfate: 0ppm
Sodium : 38mg/l
Total Trihalomethanes: 80ppb (billion)
Total Haloacetic Acids: 60ppb (billion)
Chlorine: .2ppm
Lead: 1.5ppb (billion)
Copper: 1.3 ppm
I hope this enought information that you are able to help me size my water softener.
Thanks in advance...


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RE: 64k or 48K ... I think they're overszing me???

I really hoped that with the info provided it would be enough for you to help point me in the right direction... Is there more info that I could provide to help assist me? I could really use some advice.

I am thinking of going with:

*2.5 cuft
* 7000sxt
* Top basket
* gravel under bed
*18x33 Brine Tank
*Set at 50k with 6 lbs/cu ft of salt (15 lbs total)
*Regenerate 7 or 8 days with calendar override set at 8 days.

Am I on the right track?
Thanks in advance...

As far as addressing the other issues, my test kit was ordered 2 days ago and I'm waiting for them to send me the sample kit so I can take a sample and return to them for analysis. I agree that no amount of money is worth the safety of my family. Thanks for the push in helping me see what I already knew.

This post was edited by ChillerGuy on Thu, Sep 12, 13 at 18:14


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