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toddimt

Water Softener - calling justalurker

toddimt
9 years ago

Hopefully you are still around. I had reached out a loooonnnggg while back in regard to properly sizing my water softener. You had instructed me to get some water testing done. I had trouble at the time locating someone local to do that. In addition, I got caught up in other projects. Well I got my water analysis done, based on the criteria you required.

The tests seems to have the various things in different readings. I can possibly convert. This was the list of items you instructed me to test:

ron (ferrous or ferric)
manganese
chlorine
pH
sodium
TDS

I had also aded hardness as well.

Comments (66)

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Alice,

    Thanks for the info. As far as the water sources go, my town used to be exclusively on township well from an underground aquifer. As housing expanded, they didn't have enough supply so they started purchasing water from another water companies reservoir. They also halted permits for construction for about 8-12 months. That also might have been more sewer than water supply. Building has started again and no idea if the water is combined or used when aquifer levels running low etc. I did mean to test my hardness again, since I wanted to compare what my reading was to the test results. Those were much lower than either of the tests I did with the Hatch test kit.

    Lurker,

    I wrote a reply and sat on it overnight because I was so pissed. I am even more so after you edited your last post. Seriously, you say I am petulant? I was bad tempered where in this thread? I sulked where in this thread? I criticized you where in this thread? I was demanding where in this thread? You say "Expecting the help you demand simply by posting a question without appreciating those who take the time to share their knowledge is annoying". I am really at a loss by this. Are you saying because I didn't thank you for responding to my initial post? I don't know if you are confusing me with another poster or something,

    While the post count might be up to 17 or 18, it seems that we have been talking more past each other.

    Just to back up, I was unsure if you still were on the forums. I know the site has changed in that you can now subscribe to threads. I wasn't sure if this applied to old threads so I started a new one. Once I knew you were still here, I then posted the old thread for reference and the test results you had told me to obtain previously. I had no local labs at the time to do these tests. I was told by numerous labs that two of your requested tests (PH & Chlorine) had to be done immediately, since those will change within minutes. Once a lab expanded into private residential testing I jumped on it.

    What I posted was snippets from the previous thread. Maybe I should have left off the tub, since I knew that SFR is useless through a balanced shower valve. But, I was trying to give a synopsis of where things left off. I mentioned the tub again later and the new higher floe balancing valve, since if you referred back to the old post, I said the flow was low. Thus, new valve which has a higher flow rate. Based on prior info, the flow rate on my current softener is defiantly affecting the flow rate and pressure after the softener in the house.

    Referring to the bucket test through the faucet, you said; SFR through the softener is useless. I know that!! I then said it wasn't through the softener in the next post. Maybe you skipped past that point and kept going back to saying its pointless unless I can test SFR not through the softener. You then assume I have things like a pressure tank, when none would be there due to the low pressure and the lack of regulator, which I stated.

    You then say "Correctly sizing a softener is easy if one has accurate water test results, water use data , and installation parameters but you've made it too painful and my head hurts so I give up.".

    This blows my mind. As I stated in the next post, and recapped, I basically gave you everything you had asked for in my second post. Flow rate test, not through the softener, test results from the lab, I re-did the Pressure test on my own. I knew the town wasn't going to be able to do anything. Even if they could, that would require every house on the block/line to be outfitted with pressure regulators, etc and that would be a huge expense (Since all the other homes would need a pressure regulator) and inconvenience. But, as I stated in a previous post, I went and was told that the pressure was fine (50 at the hydrant) and the min by law is 20. Its all about Hydrant pressure. I then even cut apart plumbing to do another SFR test, which as I suspected, gave me a pretty similar result to the one I already did, not through the softener.

    I just don't get it.

    Most of us who come to these forums are not the experts and that is why we are reaching out for help from those who are or have knowledge learned in a particular area. People come to these forums to share and help others out of kindness and community. Its the satisfaction in helping others avoid pitfalls and mistakes. Passing along knowledge learned from others or learned through your own experience and help received is what keeps these forums going.

    There are those of us who know nothing and get answers and there are those that know construction and want to also understand the reasoning or maybe can't wrap their head around a concept and thus trying to understand why or inquire if it doesn't seem to make sense. I fall into the latter category. But, this never got that far. I really think you need to go back and re-read this thread because I don't know how "I" could have made this painful.

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    todds - It's really not your problem. Lurker has stated numerous times (though not in this thread) that he answers "how" questions, not "why" questions. He can't answer "why" questions and, rather than simply stating that he doesn't know, he takes the question as an insult and lashes out. He's helped a lot of folks that were simply interested in "how" so just ignore the tantrum and move on. "Why" questions are perfectly reasonable from someone that wants to understand what they are doing rather than just do what they are told.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Alice,

    I get it. But I was also making that as general statement that I like to know "Why".

    But, I am pretty sure I never asked "WHY" about anything.

    He asked I answered. Period.

  • justalurker
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @ alice,

    "He can't answer "why" questions and, rather than simply stating that he doesn't know, he takes the question as an insult and lashes out."

    Really, Alice? You know what I know? You ASSUME and that fits you to a T based on your past remarks..

    On the numerous occasions that you and I disagreed I never stooped to personal insults or assumed your intentions..

    There are many people who have come to this forum and I've answered questions and provided guidance and they are the better for it. There are some who I decided not to help for various reasons and that is my right.

    You and Todds are a match made in forum heaven and you should be happy together.

    @ todds,

    The PAIN was having to type post after post and not get anywhere.

    You asked for help sizing your softener, fair enough... and I tried. What you didn't ask was teach me how to size a softener.

    The bottom line is... free advice is worth what you pay for it

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lurker,

    Where was there post after post of things I don't get?
    I understood everything perfectly. You kept going back and forth telling me that SFR can't be done through the softener and until you can there is nothing you can do.

    As I stated, I told you that I did not get my SFR (bucket/stopwatch test) trough the softener. This would have ended on my second post. Maybe third. Is that going around in circles? That is why I am at a loss as to how I was a PITA. If you "read" the 2nd and maybe 3rd post, or glanced at the link I posted for the previous thread. It was all spelled out.

    In the previous thread, PSI never was an issue. We were at the point of where the last info needed to properly size was the test results., Which I got and provided. I also added the labs hardness test to my request. What is one supposed to do if the PSI is below 55-60 and you need a softener? What is the issue or detrimental with my current PSI of 50? and what is gained by finding a way with maybe a booster pump or something to get the pressure up?

    So the last line is basically saying that your advice is worthless? Or are you saying the advice would be good but you need to be paid?

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A pressure of 50 psi is absolutely fine for both service and regeneration of a softener.

  • justalurker
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    free advice is worth what you pay for it... if you don't like advice that cost you nothing then don't do it.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That may apply if I got any advice.

    Alice,

    Thanks for the PSI update. I have been doing some calculations to see if I in fact understand this myself. For now I am using the lab results for hardness. I will test myself this weekend cause I am curious if my test kit is that far off or if the hardness really can fluctuate this much over a year or two. If I come up with the same number as he lab, since it was 2 weeks ago, then I may need to plan for the higher end.

    Hardness 344 mg/l (20.12 grains)
    Iron .0034 mg/l (.0034ppm)
    Manganese .001 mg/l (.001 ppm)
    4 people x 60 gallons = 240 gallons/day

    Rounding up I believe this would be 39,000 grains capacity, based on an 8 day cycle (7 days + 24hr reserve)

    Basing things on a 6lb/cuft efficiency, this would be 40,000 grain softener (12lbs salt per cycle). or a 2cu ft softener. That equates to your recommendation above.

    Here is my only question. When I did the bucket test, I got a flow rate of 15.87gpm - 16.21gpm. Not idea if this is what is called Constant SFR or SFR but if the 3/4" main is pumping out this flow rate directly out of the 3/4" feed to the house/water heater, then that would be the most volume of water that could ever be dispensed in the house. As far as house internal plumbing. The 3/4" main line to the house ends to my multi-jet shower, which is all plumbed 3/4" (Max GPM 10). Along the way, its reduced to 1/2" to all other fixtures and including tub in the other bathroom. The kitchen sink was done with PEX by the plumber, so not sure if its 1/2" or maybe 3/8"

    I thought that constant SFR for a softener at 2 cu ft is like 13gpm. a 2.5 is closer to 18. If this is the case, does it make sense to upsize to a 2.5? Or is what I am looking at flow wise not really my constant flow rate?

    Not sure what the other tests were needed to determine. Guessing PH for Softeners ability to remove iron (not an issue here) . Chlorine for resin longevity (again not an issue here). TDS or Sodium?

    TDS 578 mg/l
    PH. 7.13
    Sodium 24.46 mg/l
    Chlorine .03 mg/l

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Chlorine: You indicated city water, which is the reason we ask for chlorine. If you were close to the water treatment plant and had excessively high chlorine, it would be wise to remove it prior to the softener. Otherwise, just get 10% crosslinked resin.

    pH that is excessively high or low would require modification prior to the softener or the resin and/or softener internals would be damaged.

    The higher the TDS, the more hardness bleed will occur during normal softener operation. To combat that issue, we would use a higher salt dose during regeneration to ensure soft water. This could change the recommended softener size.

    SFR is the volume flow rate of water you can reasonably expect to use at one time. If you will use a shower, fill the tub and run the kitchen sink at the same time, the softener should be sized accordingly.

    Given your circumstances with the multi-head shower and four people, coupled with potentially varying hardness levels, I would go with the 2.5 cuft softener. Since you have essentially no iron in your water, there will be no problem with going longer between regens - it will actually be beneficial given that you have city water.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Alice for the info.

    As far as TDS, is that a concern for me with my numbers?

    Out of curiosity I tested and got 26 grains (twice), at the same fixture the lab tested two weeks ago. Assuming no error with the lab, starting to think these "test kits" even the Hatch 5B are not so accurate.

    - The other thing I have read on the forums is channeling. Now would that be an issue here and is that affected by flow.

    -For clarification, on your last point, do you mean longer regen than typical 8 days (regen on 8th day)?

    I am now going to start shopping online for the softener. So want to make sure of a couple of things:

    1) I see on other threads the 10% crosslinked resin seems to come from China. I know you stated American or German, which i think then is Purolite. However this is 8% it seems at most places. Is that the better choice over 10% import? I do see purolite c-100x10, which isn't typically offered as an option, on sites I have seen. Unless I buy from multiple sources.

    2) I see the BLFC size is used in the programming? Is there a certain size to specify/ensure?

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your TDS is not high enough to cause a problem

    The Hach tests are accurate. However, in order to really know what you should be looking for, it is best to "calibrate" your eyes by testing water of know hardness. Test the same water your send to a lab. When you have city water with various sources, your city's water report is a better indication of what you may see than a single pinpoint analysis - they are required to test multiple times per day in many cases, and then report high/low/average in their annual report. You are entitled to a copy. Take a look at it and size your softener for their high hardness to be on the safe side.

    Channeling is absolutely affected by flow. If you had a very large softener and routinely ran only very low flows through it, you would be at risk for channeling. That really shouldn't be an issue in your case.

    Yes, longer than 8 days between regens is fine if your water conditions support it. You need to ensure your have good quality resin as well.

    Many online dealers will not list 10% crosslinked resin, but they likely have it available if you call them rather than ordering from their website.

    You don't need to specify BLFC size. We just need to know what size you have in order to program the brine fill time to ensure correct salt dosage.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks.

    I see that I somehow deleted the part I wrote about the water reports when I was refining what I wanted to post.

    My city's states avg hardness is 13gpg, across the 12 township wells.

    The Water Co, where my township also receives supplemental water from shows a range of 5.8-14 gpg. The water comes from various sources.

    The lab report had 20.12 gpg. Thus 6 grains higher than the either report. I have also tested way above that scope with the hatch kit, as I stated previously. I knew I should have pulled a sample at the same time and checked for curiosity. My cousin is coming with some other test strips he uses at his company for water testing. Curious to see if those read what I see with the hatch kit anyway.

    I know you don't give any recommendations to any online source for purchase. Just want to make sure I got the correct list:

    7000SXT valve
    Noryl Bypass. 3/4" Brass Sweat
    Structural Round Brine Tank. (18X40) - Model BT1840
    w/ Salt Grid - Model BG18-4
    w/ Fleck 2310 Saftey Valve
    Top Basket (I'll ask for Pentair/Fleck)
    13x54 Resin Tank (I think Poly Glass - Pentair/Fleck)
    2.5cu ft 10% cross Linked Resin (USA)
    Gravel

    Anything else I'm missing?
    I assume normal 1.05" Tube (Not 32mm)
    What is the soft water brine refill option I see on the Fleck Site under the 7000SXT. Beneficial?

    I'll start shopping tomorrow and get quotes.

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Looks good. Soft water brine refill is a nice, but not a necessary, feature. It can improve regen in iron-laden waters, but has virtually no effect on average-hardness waters.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Got it.

    As far as gravel, how much should there be for a 2.5cu ft softener? Does size matter? I see 1/8"x1/4" and 1/2" x 1/4"

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    1/8"x1/4"

    Gravel will be ~100 lb/cu ft. 1/2 cu ft (50 lbs) should do it.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Got this back in a quote:

    The 7000 valve is supplied with a larger 32mm Distributor & Top Basket...... and all of our Softeners include a Resin Funnel....!

    1ea Fleck 7000SXT Electronic Metered Water Softener 80,000 Grain Capacity
    13x54 Structural Resin Tank (Blue) w/32mm Distributor Tube & Top Basket

    2.5 cubic feet of Purolite C100x10 Softening Resin, 10% Crosslink

    .5 cu/ft Gravel Support Media

    18 gpm service flow rate

    3.5 gpm flow rate

    Selected options:
    Bypass Valve w/ - 3/4 Inch NPT PVC Connectors

    18x40 Round Brine Tank w/Salt Grid & 2310 Safety Float Assembly

    So questions are:

    -I thought I had read somewhere that this valve uses either the 1.05" or the 32" tube. They say 32mm is standard. Is that OK or should I be using the 1.05" to help prevent channeling? Or is there only one option?

    - Everything else look OK? Missing anything?

    - I will hopefully test my hatch kit along with another test kit tomorrow to see if the results are similar. Now lets say that my test kit is right. Then I have tested upwards of 27 - maybe even 32. I have to go back and check. How can one ever then know what the max level could be if this can fluctuate so often? Anyway, if this is the case this would bump me up to a 3 cu ft and maybe more. I would think that channeling could be cause for concern then since I am more often then not running high flow. Thoughts? I don;t want to get caught in the weeds on a larger size until I confirm if my kit's consistency.

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your quote looks good. Either tube size is just fine.

    I seriously doubt you have 32 gpg hardness, given the numbers reported by your city. They take frequent tests and provide averages, highs and lows. Their test equipment and expertise in using it is going to be far superior to your testing. Testing with two different test kits to see if they are similar doesn't address that issue - only testing with your test kit and then sending the sample to a lab to calibrate your testing ability will. Given the numbers reported by your city, I would not go any larger than a 2.5 cuft softener.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks. That's what I was thinking. Much better than the .75cu ft softener with 5600 eco-minder its replacing anyway.

    The only point I was doing with the two kits was to see if they both had the same result. If so, then I know there is no "issue" with my test kit. I still would need to check every now and then down the road to make sure harness hasn't changed, etc.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Alice,

    Had some other issues to deal with and have placed my order. Will post back when I get it all in and hooked up for help programming. That may take a little while cause I have to re-do a bunch of plumbing due to the larger size.

    As far as the gravel, they told me that for the 2.5cu ft that I should only put in 35# not the whole 50# along with the 2.5cu ft of resin (Which I will also need to weigh out since its sold in 1cu ft bags). Otherwise there wouldn't be enough headroom. Sound correct?

  • cntl4userguy
    9 years ago

    OP, I'm sorry but I'm with lurker on all this. You have published three diff. hardness numbers anywhere from 13 up to 32gpg. Also, your SFR #'s probably aren't close to reality either. I'm getting sick just trying to wade through all of your language but I think you are saying something like 18gpm somewhere here?


    I installed by myself and made mistakes so that makes me a DIYer. One thing I learned is it is easy to calc. size and order properly. Three things go into the size calc:

    -Total Harness (corrected for iron, other metals, etc.)

    -Total daily water usage

    -SFR


    That's basically it. If you think any of those will change soon, take that into consideration. If not soon, for get it and go with what you know now. You will adjust salt dose to slide up/down the range. The one thing you won't be compensating for is if your SFR truly is upwards of 20gpm, that 2.5cuft unit is not correct and neither is the 1.05" dist. tube. Channeling? I'm no expert but I think you've been reading too much forum garb..

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago

    All due respect to the vast store of softener knowledge you have managed to accumulate in the last few weeks, cntl4, but the three things you listed are most definitely not the only things required to properly specify a softener. At present, you've just enough information to be dangerous.

  • cntl4userguy
    9 years ago

    OK, you are entitled to your opinion. How is all of this "dangerous"? When you are responding to moving targets like you are in this post, you may be the one who falls to the so-called danger.

    The task of sizing is not complicated- only the dealers make it that way and the home owner who has no idea what information to collect or how to collect it. A few weeks is all it takes to size & install just one system. I'm not in the business nor want to be.


  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago

    Knowing just enough to be dangerous is an expression.

    You arrived without a clue in January, were belligerent to those trying to help you, did what you could to screw up your own system and you're now offering advice to others. I'm just attempting to prevent you from costing someone else money with your ignorance. Unless, of course, you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. In which case - carry on!

  • cntl4userguy
    9 years ago

    No idea who you are thinking of. Nothing was screwed-up in fact everything went fine and I took the advice of others. If there is more info you think the OP here needs in the selection process, go right ahead and mention it.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    cntl4userguy

    As far as multiple hardness numbers, that is because my own test results, with the hatch kit have varied since I originally posted about issues with my Ecominder 5600 back in 2010. Back then, my test result were 25 grains and justalurker recommended I change softeners to a 2.5cu ft. This was based on just doing the hardness test.

    BTW, The original softener was installed by the premier water softening company in the area and they gave me a .75cu ft softener when I first moved in back in 1999.

    Reflected in the posts above are test results by myself, the lab report of when and those of the water supply company that also provides supplement water. Thus, multiple hardness numbers. For example, I tested two days ago. with the Hatch kit and got a result of 21 (multiple times), which is closer to the lab's last result months ago. Back in 2010, with the same test kit, I got 25 multiple times. Back in 2013, with the same test kit, I got 32. At that time the township aquifers couldn't supply the full townships capacity and that's when they added an outside source for water. Maybe the outside company at that time had very hard water? Maybe the low volume of water in the underground aquifers led to higher hardness? I don't know. But, it seems that the more representative high of hardness is more around 25-26 in which a 2.5cu ft softener can handle at the optimal 6# of salt per cu/ft.

    More importantly is that these numbers can fluctuate based on time of year and/or water source flowing into my home at the time as I have shown with varying hardness numbers over the last 5 years. To me, the fact that I have put off this project for so long and have been able to test hardness myself, lab and view city reports, I got way more info then anyone else who has been on the forums looking for a softener. When most people are looking for a softener, they get a SINGLE point test for hardness. In my case, that could have easily been been 20, leading me to get a 2cu ft softener. Now some may say to size the softener based on the one highest result I received at 32grains, which would be a 3.5cu ft softener. Not sure if justalurker would say the same. I can do that or I can look at the more common high in readings I have had over the past several years of 25-26 grains and size the softener off of that. I understand that if I hit a period where the hardness goes above 26, I "could" end up with hardness coming through. But, also a 2.5cu ft softener should be able to handle 32 grains at a lower salt efficiency around 9# salt per cu ft. Compare this to what I am running today, .75cu ft which wastes tons of water as well as salt, restricts the flow of water in my house, Can't possibly handle the peek demand, or even usual higher demand in my home so I have to end up with SIGNIFICANT bleed through, etc when hardness was high. Highly evident based on the mineral deposits in shower etc.

    So I could be making a trade off. I will do testing of both the softened water and non-softener water at greater intervals and prior to regen to see if adjustments could be necessary from the 25 grain number.

    As far as SFR, there are many definitions of what it means and what it means in relation to a water softener. Plumbing code will say SFR is based on calculating all fixtures in the home. In softener speak, what I read is SFR is in regard to what the softener is rated to handle based on the volume of resin. But SFR is thrown around here to mean bucket tests and fixtures used and this really FLOW RATE and/or PEAK DEMAND (i.e. max number of plumbing fixtures that may be used at the same time). Its how that relates to the SFR of the softener that is important.

    Lets go back to my scenario, a 3/4" pipe, which is the service I have coming into the house, at 50psi puts out a max around 17.5-18gpm. I understand I am talking peak/max flow rate. In terms of peak demand, I can have a multi-jet shower running (10gpm) + another shower and maybe someone turns on the washing machine or dishwasher. Thus, my peek demand, could theoretically hit the max flow rate of my plumbing in this scenario. Thus. I would need to have a softener capable of handing the peak demand of running my multi-jet shower song with my kids showering at the same time with possibly someone starting the wash or running the dishwasher in the AM.

    From what I have read, the importance of SFR is more to ensure that you have a softener that is sized to handle your peak demand flow rate. i.e. you may have a softener to handle the hardness level but, may be undersized SFR wise to handle the peak demand. For example, lets say that I have a hardness of 5, my current softener at .75 cu ft with the recommender 5600 controller, can handle that but it only has a max flow rate of only 7GPM. Thus, if I use my multi-jet shower, I would and obviously have totally exceed the SFR of this softener. Thus, I would have to upsize the softeners cu ft capacity. Not cause of handing harness but flow.

    A total hardness of 25 equates to a 2.5cu ft softener with the 6# of salt per cu ft efficiency, based on the 7 days + 1 reserve. A 2.5cu ft softener has a max SFR of 18gpm. If I have 3/4 plumbing at 50psi that max flow rate period flowing through the plumbing is 17.5gpm. Just knowing that, regardless of what I am using in the house at the same time, I can never exceed the SFR of the softener. If I had a 1" line into the house my theortetical max flow rate would far exceed that of the SFR of a 2.5 CU softener and then I would have to calculate peak usage (GPM of the max numbers of fixtures running concurrently) to make sure that rate falls equal to or below the SFR of 18.

    As far as CHANNELING, this is not what you call "forum garbage". Channeling can happen if MIN flow rate is exceeded flowing through the softener. Channeling occurs when the flow rate is too low for the size of the softener tank causing water not to flow through the whole resin bed resulting in hard water leakage. Also, can happen if the backwash flow rate is too low from what I have read. Not sure how often this happens though. Its discussed online but not in too much detail.



  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I did want to add one last bit of info. While there are 4 people in the house (2 adults & 2 teenagers), that will also change in about 2.5 years, when the 1st goes off to college. Thus, water usage will drop. I took this into consideration when sizing the new softener. If this was back in 2010 I may have done something different. If my hardness creeped back up 32, in 2.5 years my current softener would be perfectly sized for 3 people @ 60gpd and would actually be oversized even for 25grains, unless I reduced the Lbs of salt down to 5. In two additional years, we would be down to 2 people in the house. These are things you need to think of as well.

    My calculations were done using 60 gallons per day. 75 gallons per day would have put me at a 3.5cu ft for even 25 grains of hardness. However, 60 is more realistic in my household. That is with 2 teenagers, one of which I think lives in the shower and loads of wash done about every other day (FYI, When they get very tall/large the clothes are bulkier, especially in the winter, and thus have to more loads). When I got a front loader years ago, I saw the amount of water usage & bill plummet compared to the older top loader. I am doing way more wash now then ever before. I also renovated the kitchen 3 years ago and installed a new high efficiency DW. Even if I look at last qtr's bill, I used 18,700 gallons over 91 days. That is 206 gallons a day or 51.5 gallons per person. I think that included a toilet with a flapper that would sometimes not fully seat properly. So 60 makes a nice cushion. Spring and summer would have even less usage, cause the volume of laundry plummets. Usage can be as low as 35gal per day per person. This also goes to one of cntl4users comments in his own thread where he was taking into account more efficient appliances in the future.



  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hi Alice,


    Softener came on Fri. Pretty much everything except the resin. They actually sent 35# of gravel. I at least set the pipe/basket in the middle and filled with gravel and covered with plastic gravel bag until the resin arrives.

    I also realize that I will need a full day of re-doing plumbing to get this bad boy in there. Taller then I thought and I need to move the water heater and now can eliminate pieces of plumbing that are unneeded.

    On the controller the BLFC says .125 GPM. Is that too small?

    As far as the DLFC is doesn't state on the controller. I was looking at it to find a part number. Turns out what I saw was the number for the DLFC fitting but it seems its the washer size that determines the flow rate. I think there was a #2 imprinted on it, which I'm guessing is 2GPM. I can check with the company I got it from or look further when I get home.


    What other info do you need to help with programming?

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago

    I'll just need the resin information when it arrives.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    What info do you need off the Purolite C100x10? At least that is what is supposed to be shipped to me.

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago

    Just to verify - Fleck 7000sxt with 2.5 cu ft of resin. If that is correct, then program as follows:

    Enter Master Programming Mode

    1. DF=Gal
    2. VT = St2b (default)
    3. CT=Fd
    4. NT=1
    5. C=70
    6. H=25
    7. RS=SF
    8. SF=15
    9. RC=0 (You
      are using a % reserve rather than a fixed reserve)
    10. CR=0
    11. DO=10
    12. RT=2:00 (or
      another convenient time when you won’t be using water for a couple of hours)
    13. Regeneration
      cycle step times: BW1=14, BD=75, BW2=7, RR=10, BF=40
    14. Ensure all days
      are set to ON, unless you have a specific day of the week when you do not want
      the softener to regen.
    15. CD doesn’t
      matter unless you set a day to OFF in step 14.
    16. FM You shouldn’t have to change this
    17. doesn’t
      matter

    Exit Master
    Programming Mode.

    Pour 5 gallons of water into the brine tank.
    Add enough salt to cover the water.

    Reset your
    clock to actual time.

    At this
    point it’s a good idea to force the softener to step through the regen steps. There is no need to allow each step to
    complete. Just leave it in each step
    long enough to verify that the valve has changed position then move on to the
    next until you are back in service mode.

    Enjoy your
    soft water.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Have a question on #5 & #11 and #13 as well as brine tank water fill.


    Why is C (Capacity) set to 70 vs 48 or 50? Wouldn't capacity for 25grains, at 240gpd = 48,000 based on a 6#/cu ft salt dose or 50,000 based on hardness of 26?


    As far as DO (Days Override) not sure if that is based on the 70,000 capacity, but then would this change to 8 if the capacity should changed?


    For #13 I see the BF is set to 40, which I think means 5 gallons of water, with a BLFC at .125, for a total salt usage of 15#. If capacity was 70,000, wouldn't that work backwards as 15# of salt equating to 4667 grains of capacity per cu ft? This was also bringing me back to 50,000 grains, which I believe at 15# equates to 3333 grains of capacity per cu ft.


    Just verifying.


    Also, if the brine tank has a salt grid is it still 5 gallons of water or do you need to add more water, since the salt sits higher. Well as I am typing this I guess not if you are only supposed to be pulling back 5 gallons of water for a regen.






  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago

    #5 Capacity is set at 70,000 because that is the capacity on the tech spec for your resin regenerated at 6 lb salt/cu ft, compensated for hardness and TDS. The capacity of your softener is determined by the resin and the regen salt, and aside from a small adjustment determined by the tech spec, has nothing to do with your water analysis.

    #11 Day override is the number determined to protect your softener from going too long between regens based on your water conditions. It does not change if your hardness changes or if your capacity changes. Your softener will generally regenerate based on the amount of water you use before the day override kicks in.

    #13 BF time is set to provide 6 lb salt/cu ft of resin, a total of 15 lb salt.

    The salt grid has holes in the legs. 5 gallons of water is the amount you need. During the brine/slow rinse phase, brine will be drawn into the softener until the brine tank is empty, then just water will flow through the resin tank at a low rate.

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago

    Todd - I'm sorry. Capacity should be 61. I was looking at 8 lb salt instead of 6. I should have caught that earlier. Purolite C100 has a higher-than-average capacity, but not that much higher.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks Alice,

    Does that affect the calendar day override?

    But I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around the 70, now 61. You had mentioned a chart, where can I find that?

    I know you say that it has a higher then avg capacity but not much higher. I think the numbers I posted 48 or 50 was based on the normal avg. For example, I can get these numbers using the calculator off Gary's site. That would put this resin at 27% more hardness removal. If the capacity is that much higher, with C100x10 then I probably could have downsized. Was just thinking C100x10 was same as regular resin but just lasted longer with city water/chlorine.

    61,000/25 gpg = 2440 gallons. 20% reserve (488 gallons), leaves 1952 gallons. System will then recharge I assume at 2am when that that mark is hit. Usage of 240gpd would then mean this would auto regen in approx 8 days. Did I get that right?




  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago

    Capacity for an average resin at 6 lb/cu ft is 21,000/cu ft. Most Purolite resins have higher than average capacity. This one has 24,400 grains/cu ft, 16% more hardness removal.

    Downsizing to a 2.0 cu ft system would have placed you at a regen every six days.

    Your softener will regen every eight days with average water usage.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I get what you are saying. I was looking at 20,000 grains (typical resin) vs. your 21,000 to come up with my initial figures.


    So would #11, Day Override still remain at 10? I know you had 10 when you initially figured 70,000 grains. Don't know if that number should then reduce now to 8 or so now that we are down to 61,000.


    IF my math is correct, at 61,000 grains @ 6cu ft effeiciency, I should then be able to get up to 30grains of hardness removal off of this softener with regen then occurring approx 7 days (8 days factoring in the reserve).


    So for the future, if my hardness goes up in testing. I know I would change H. But what else am I looking at to adjust or at which point would I need to adjust anything else maybe is the better question.




  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Again, day override is a safety factor for the resin and, provided your water doesn't develop a lot of solids or iron, doesn't change.

    If your hardness goes up a bit, just change the hardness number. If hardness increases drastically, you may wish to consider changing regen salt dosage, but we can cross that bridge if we come to it.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks. Was just jumping ahead so I can write a note and attach to softener in case I need to do something if hardness increases drastically. Will re-post if that happens. I'll let you know once I have this bad boy all hooked up. I did ask OhioPureWater why this came with the .125 BLFC vs. something larger like .5 given the oftener size, which would reduce the brine refill time.

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago

    The smaller BLFC allows for finer control.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I should have the resin today. Was probably better anyway since the weather has warmed up and shouldn't have to worry about freezing issues with the delivery. They are also sending out the .25gpm washer for the BLFC. Said they should have changed it our knowing it was going on a 2.5cu ft softener. If I change it out I assume that the only change is then BF=20?

    Hope to get this all installed this weekend.



  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks.

    Not that I have much of a clue reading this but think the info used to figure out the capacity was from fig 1. Which was 1.2 (i.e. 20% more capacity) and at just over 4# salt/cu ft is around 1.0 or 21K per cu ft of resin?

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    9 years ago

    That is base capacity. Then the correction factors are taken into account.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Got it.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Got the resin yesterday and started the fill. Wasn't how I pictured it would look. Got 2 bags in. Had to use a bowl to fill the funnel. Now I see where the weight comes from. Need to get 1/2 of the last bag in and can attach the controller.

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Alice,

    Question

    added the other half a bag so now has 2.5cu ft of resin. Looks high in tank, i.e. not much free area but figure its not settled. One set of instructions says to fill tank with water up most of the way to reduce amount of air in tank. Other instructions I saw online doesn't mention any prefilling prior to installing the controller. Thoughts?

  • toddimt
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    All Installed

    There was no option under VT = to set to St2b. Default is: df2b

    I put 5 gallons of water in the brine tank. 5 Gallons brings the water level just about to the bottom of the salt grid. So the only salt that will touch water is that that ends up in the 4 legs. That will be enough? You say to just cover the water with salt but that would mean hardly any salt. I know once the salt goes in the water level will rise up some though.

    I can't believe the amount of rocks and crap in my old brine tank. Was using the blue bags of coarse Solar salt from the Depot. Guess they pack those bags with more then just salt. I will pickup up the Yellow Bags (System Saver Pellets) and try that. Figure there should;t be any junk in those since they are machine made. But the pellets are larger so less will fit in the legs and be exposed to water.


  • toddimt
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Alice,


    The controller wasn't reducing the remaining gallons and discovered that it shipped without the turbine. Installed that back in business. It also auto regenerated last night as well, since that was the 10 days cycle. I also checked water volume in the brine tank just to make sure it looked good. All seems OK. Water level was above the salt now so threw in another 40# bag.


    Thank you very much for your help. Was invaluable.

  • Ricky Rick
    3 years ago

    Looks like justalurker is still his happy self.