Just sticking with the facts:

"We understand that a dedicated use tankless water heater is not a good idea. We have been told that they are expensive and dangerous. Do you agree and if so, is there any other product currently available that we can use to achieve our goal."
This is not true. They are expensive, but not dangerous. A tankless heater is the only thing that will come CLOSE to achieving your expectations. (To reiterate Alice's point) A tankless can be set to output 140 F. The hottest the water in your basin will ever be is maybe 130 F

That's still not going to do what you want.

The best way to avoid mold inside the washing machine is to leave the lid or door open for the basin to dry.

ludy-2009,

Mold is not a problem with TLers as it is with FLers. The front door seal being under water level and inadequate draining and drying of the door seal in FLers is what encourages mold to grow. Some FLers recommend elaborate procedures for drying and sanitizing the door seal.

TLers don't seal the washing cavity and do dry out so mold and other bacteriological growth is mitigated with the hot water, the anti-bacterials in the water (if on a municipal water system), and additives to the wash water.

"We understand that a dedicated use tankless water heater is not a good idea. We have been told that they are expensive and dangerous."

That came from me on another thread. OP did not mention on this thread that the topic was a device that would deliver water at 160-200F.

"This is not true. They are expensive, but not dangerous."

Such higher-temperature devices do exist. For a homeowner they are expensive and dangerous. I don't know the codes like a lot of you folks do but I would suspect 160-200F supply likely not allowed for residential.

asolo, even if it were permitted, another advised that it would shorten the life of the machine, if not built for those temps. I looked at it and cannot remember exactly, but I am pretty sure the Miele delivers that level of temp., however, as an internal, not external, heater. So are the commercial tankless heaters dangerous because homes are not equipped for that level of output or because the products themselves are inherently dangerous?

justalurker, others have said the same and still others have said that TLs have the same problem with mold as the FLs it's just around the drum on the inside of the machine and therefore we do not see it. What are your thoughts? Can the mold live around the outside of the drum on the inside of the machine where we do not see it?

If it were me, I would install a secondary HW heater in line with the HW line to the washer. It wouldn't have to be large. It would depend on how much hot water I needed at the time. I would set it's tstat to 150F, but I might not leave it on all the time. In fact, since I only do laundry on weekends, I would only turn it on on laundry day.

We were going to do this for my Mom when she remodeled but ended up not bothering due to other things.

"All national model plumbing codes limit residential hot water supplies to a maximum of 140degF "

The fact is that no building code will permit this. It is possible but not allowed. It is possible to design and install the boiler in a safe manner. It is also possible that in the future someone may modify the plumbing, tie into the boiler for hot water, and create a scald hazard. To introduce a high temperature boiler into a residential plumbing system is illegal, because of the "possibilities"

Maybe buy a laundromat and convert the back office to an apartment. Just don't tell code enforcement you're moving in.

Excuse me,,,,correct me if I am wrong, but I did define how it could be done in my first post, and asking your reasoning for doing so is within the scope of my responsibility as a Plumber,

Now, perhaps rather than give me a lot of know it all attitude you might want to consider what you are asking of the plumber.

First of all, under the current code restrictions we are not permitted to install any device in a residential potable water distribution system that will produce water hotter than 140degF and even then we may only do so with the expressed written consent of the local AHJ upon demonstration that all fixtures and point of use demands have a device to limit the output to 120degF.

If we were to violate that code and someone happened to reach into your top loader while the tub is full and be scalded by that water the plumber would not only loose his/her license, he/she could and probably would be held both civilly and criminally responsible for the injury.

On the other hand, suppose you are fortunate enough that no one gets injured but what do you suppose will happen in a year or so when the seals and plastic components of your top loader are all failing from excessive temperature and the manufacturer says the warranty if void? There is no doubt in my mind that you would be hauling the plumber into small claims court to buy you a new washer on the grounds that he/she should have known better than to provide a water source hotter than what the machine is designed for.

The bottom line is, if you think for one moment that I or any other reputable plumber is going to risk loosing their license, paying exhorbitant fines or even risking jail time to satisfy the unmerrited wants and desires of a homeowner you are sadly mistaken.

If you insist on having water in excess of 140degF then the option is to purchase a commercial washer, either topload or upright that is designed to operate at higher temp and has the heater built in.

ludy-2009,

With respect to "...others have said that TLs have the same problem with mold as the FLs it's just around the drum on the inside of the machine and therefore we do not see it".

I don't recall a single instance of reading about mold and FLers. The mold complaints started up when the FLers hit the mass market.

I have never seen my TLer damp within just a few hours of doing the laundry. It is completely dry and that eliminates an aspect of the required environment to grow mold... dampness

My wife is an ICP (Infection Control Practitioner) at a hospital and is intimately familiar with the CDC recommendations regarding institutional and commercial laundry facilities and says those concerns are pretty much nonexistent in a home unless someone in the home is colonized or infected by bacteria.

If you're on a municipal water supply which, by law, has anti-bacterials (chlorine or chloramines) added to the water and you have a TLer you have little to nothing to worry about especially when using bleach or Pine Sol or similar products.

Now, if those others can come up with some hard data or first hand reports showing bacteria on the outside of the drum of a front loader where we do not see it then I stand corrected.

For now, the absence of abundant first hand reports of mold on the outside of the drum of a front loader where we do not see it and the decades and decades and decades and decades of field history of FLers and no mold complaints is enough for me.

If you are using a modern machine, it doesn't matter about the temperature of the water delivered at your inlet. The machines today have on board auto temperature control and will mix cold water with that screaming hot water until it is cooled down enough to satisfy the sensor. "Hot" water washes are defined by those machine as around 100-110, depending on manufacturer. You would have to figure out a method of defeating the on board sensors, and if you did that, you'd have to manually fill your machine every load with alternating hot and cold to achieve your desired temperature.

The only way to economically achieve the wash temperatures that you desire is to purchase a machine with an on board heater and a Sanitary cycle. I believe GE Profile, LG, and Maytag all make new generation HE top loaders that have an on board heater and Sanitary cycle. However, they are not as energy efficient nor do they clean as well as a front loader.

You are able to have higher level of kinetic energy (AGITATION)in a front loader than a top loader because it is the nature of a horizontal axis agitation vs vertical axis agitation. The clothes move around much more in a front loader than a top loader, thus the better everyday cleaning. Cleaning clothes requires four elements for it to work correctly. You need chemical surfactants, agitation, heat, and time. The Sanitary wash feature available on machines with an on board heater will provide the three out of the four, with you providing the fourth.

The only down side to a front loader is having to leave the front door open until the interior dries out, as well as the necessity of running the occasional hot water load and not overdosing on detergents. The first isn't exactly onerous, and you've already stated that the second is something you'd like to do. That only leaves the third, which is a bit of trial and error until you get the load size/dosage ratio figured out.

So, all of your requirements can be satisfied by purchasing a machine with an on board heater, whether top load or front load.

".... I am pretty sure the Miele delivers that level of temp....."

Many machines with on-board heaters will provide highest temps in the neighborhood of 160F. A few European machines with 220v power supply will go to 200. Don't know if they're available in US any longer.

"...tankless heaters dangerous because homes are not equipped for that level of output or because the products themselves are inherently dangerous?"

Normally built/outfitted homes are not designed to handle 160+ water. 160+F water is, indeed, inherently dangerous. (I'm amazed you asked the question.) The many washing machines with heaters are also equipped with automatic door locks that will not allow access to the interior of the machine once the temperature is boosted above about 125F.

You're really beating this thing to death, aren't you? You do NOT want ANY device that will supply your machine with 160+F water. To do so will be expensive and dangerous...and probably illegal. Please abandon this intention. There exist MANY machines that will give you that heat inside the machine with door locked. Your only remaining objection is the additional time it takes to heat the water so the cycle time will be extended. I strongly advise that you accept the additional time and abandon your other idea.

WOW! Okay, so I now have ALL the information I need. That's the GardenWeb I know and love! Thank you, everyone! lazypup, yes, please read post "to worthy" . . . and aidan, that was funny! Thank you all.

CORRECTION:

My previous post SHOULD have read...

I don't recall a single instance of reading about mold and TLers. The mold complaints started up when the FLers hit the mass market.

and...

Now, if those others can come up with some hard data or first hand reports showing bacteria on the outside of the drum of a top loader where we do not see it then I stand corrected.

and...

For now, the absence of abundant first hand reports of mold on the outside of the drum of a top loader where we do not see it and the decades and decades and decades and decades of field history of TLers and no mold complaints is enough for me.

justalurker, thanks for the laugh!

There are plenty of cases of top loaders with a build up of biofilm in between the two tubs. Ask any repairman who has torn them down regularly. It's become a lot more prevalent since the kick to wash everything in cold water. "Cold" water isn't tap cold. Detergent manufacturers define cold as between 78-82 degrees. Below that temp, detergents have a hard time dissolving, and it and waxes and skin oils and skin cells form a sludge that clings to the outer tub. The cure is a long hot wash to dissolve all of the gunk. The only reason that you don't hear more about it is that top loaders aren't watertight and dry out between uses. Front loaders have a water tight seal that prevents airflow unless you leave the door open for it to dry out.

"The only reason that you don't hear more about it is that top loaders aren't watertight and dry out between uses. Front loaders have a water tight seal that prevents airflow unless you leave the door open for it to dry out"

Exactly my point...

So is it enough to just open the lid of a TL or leave the door open on an FL? Is that alone enough to prevent the mold -- is there no need for hot water or chemicals if it simply dries -- and are the holes in the tub, along with the open top, enough for the interior walls of the drum to dry?

As an aside, on Asko models the door automatically pops open as soon as the wash is done and as soon as the door is shut a wash cycle automatically starts. Are there other brands that do the same? Is it enough that the door pops open if the laundry sits?

Also, I know that GE put a built in heater on the GE Profile, Harmony -- but are there other TLs with built in heaters?

Thanks!

Actually, if you want to occassionally sanitize the machine with water in excess of 120degF there is nothing stopping you from boiling water on the stove and pouring it in the machine. Regardless of whether the machine fills from its internal water source or you pour water in the tub when the tub is full the water level senser will automatically advance the timer to the run cycle.

You know, I wondered about that . . . thank you, lazypup. Just fill it and put it on rinse? I just wonder if I could actually fill it fast enough and whether it would retain the heat long enough.

I guess the only answer may be a built in heater (okay, asolo, I know) -- but which one? The Miele customer service lacks, so please make another suggestion that doesn't fall apart, or give up, or mold, or otherwise disappoint after a year or five. For anyone who repairs FL or TLs daily -- which one would you suggest? Need a built in heater that reaches 140 - 160, second floor, so little vibration and quiet. Which do you see/repair the least -- if they need repair, in your experience, which company has the best customer service?

Oh, for heaven's sake.....buck up and do your own damned research. This has become ridiculous.

Right....boil water on the stove and pour it in there.....brilliant....solves all your problems.

Bowing out, now, before I tell you to go stuff yourself. Oops...I just did.

live wire oak : "Cold" water isn't tap cold. Detergent manufacturers define cold as between 78-82 degrees.

Thanks! I see the standardized fabric care labels define "cold" as 85ÃÂF. That's the temp of the "warm" setting on my Kenmore TL. (p. 7 on link below)

Here is a link that might be useful: Laundry Essentials

Ladies and Gentlemen, if you haven't already, meet the GardenWeb bully. Armed with a keyboard and the promise of anonymity, he feels he can write anything. He purports to have advice to give on more than eight different forums on this site. Even if the man is ignored, he "chases" people to lob his insults. People are tired of him, as evidenced by this recent, unrelated post:

Posted by sshrivastava (My Page) on Wed, Jun 8, 11 at 16:24

@ asolo
Why are you being such a jerk? I've noticed many of your recent posts have been filled with animosity, hostility and you've become downright condescending and rude. If you have some personal issue, please deal with that and don't insult the members of this forum. Diane is simply seeking help regarding her issue and your posts ridiculing her are not helpful whatsoever. Go sit in the corner with a mirror for a while and try to figure out where all your anger is coming from - you seem to need it.

Thank you all very much for your help. I have the information I need.

While I disagree with asolo's tone, I sympathize with the sentiment. There is a wealth of information about washing machines, both on this site and elsewhere. Asking us to do your research for you, when it is readily available for you to read yourself, along with snarkiness when the answers you receive aren't precisely what you wanted, is too much. Go to the laundry forum and start reading. Use Google. Read consumer reviews. Then come back and ask specific questions if you still have them. We are here to help, not to do the work for you. Best of luck to you.

ludy-2009 did you post your query in the Laundry forum? I didn't see it there.

ludy-2009, have you been reading not only all the answers you got here but also the hundreds of threads in the Laundry forum? I concur with all the posts that responded to your query, that all combine to give the same message. It does appear that you have a certain kind of unusual ability, to avoid seeing the answers that are all out there, all over the internet, and in the Laundry forum too. AND in this thread too.

It's wonderful to see all the detailed answers that this thread generated. It creates content. This is good for the world, good for this forum, and good for our advertisers who support the forum. Nobody's feelings get hurt when someone cries that enough is enough. It's all a shell game, a sham game, a shill game. Thank you for being so hard to convince. It gives the forum an opportunity to come together. Where else could you see all the various responders all agreeing with each other? You have performed a wonderful service, creating a team spirit in dealing with people who just don't get it.

If I still can't find a thread in the Laundry forum about this topic, I might go create one. That will be in a month or two. In the meantime, be well.

Hth

@ ludy-2009

"...the GardenWeb bully...."

Yeah, I'm a pretty terrible fellow. I'm also the guy that answered your original question accurately with my first post on the other forum and continued with several others there trying, trying, trying to enable you to understand the issue. When it became apparent you weren't getting it over there, I was the guy who coaxed you to post over here for seeking more/better opinion and explanation.

Glad you got the information you needed in the end...but you certainly are a slow learner.

"Very hot water kills mold."

As will bleach, either chlorine or color safe oxygen (peroxide0 bleaches.

If you never noticed, hospitals use white sheets.
The laundering required would quickly remove any color.

They also want laundry that is very close to sterile for routine use, and IS sterilized for OR and critical use.

You will find items laundered at very high temperatures tend to have a VERY short life.

You seem to be very attached to incorrect information even when you are exposed to numerous knowledgeable posters that all have the same answer to your dilemma. That is either failure of comprehension on a massive level or troll behavior. No one that reaches an adult age and earns enough money to pay for an internet connection could possibly be as obtuse as you are pretending to be, so that leaves the conclusion that you are a troll. That conclusion is reinforced by the whiny behavior and petty insults. I don't attempt to educate the uneducable nor do I feed the trolls. I'm out of here.

Would ironing everything kill germs?

"Would ironing everything kill germs?"

Maybe....although the germs stand a much better chance of survival than does your ridiculous pedantry.

Of course high-temps, assuming ironing-temp above 212F, will "kill germs". Duh. So, I suppose you want to get into dwell-times and event-environments and fabric residuals and a hundred other variables?

Whatever your purpose in posting, I hope you'll take it somewhere else. You're being silly and annoying.

Garden Bully....didn't mean to be funny. I worry about too many germs too. Since the topic of germ killing made me wonder if ironing is hot enough to kill the germs, I asked the question. I know there is a steam cleaning process for this very thing. I also was wondering if ultraviolet light, like that used in post offices, hospital ventilating systems would be a good idea. would help. After all it just might be an idea worth pursuing. So that I don't offend you in the future, please post a list of questions which will appeal to your approval. Or if you see a topic or question you don't approve of, skip on your merry way, dictator. Go micromanage another thread why don't you.

"Go micromanage another thread why don't you."

Question mark would have been good there, don't you think?

I don't manage, macro- or micro-manage anyone...here or anywhere else. You write what you want. I'll write what I want. I've never suggested anything other.

Iron away, dimwit.

Oh. For. Pity's. Sake.

You cannot make your home antiseptic. Further, if you could accomplish such a task, you would be doing your family a grave disservice, weakening their immune systems to the point they couldn't venture out.

I never thought I'd comment here, just read. However, it does make me wonder how we ever made it this far since my grandparents washed everything and hung it outside in the dirty old air to dry. I think their parents beat clothes on a rock. Ok, that was supposed to be amusing and not to undermine the OP's inquiry which has some merit in today's world. There are bacteria that actually thrive in 212 degree water. But you know, there is a thought here. I wonder if an ultraviolet light made , say into a door of a dryer, would satisfy the growing number of people who look for those extra levels of security from various germs and bacteria that cause allergic reactions.
Alice in Wonderland...I agree with you for the most part about weakening the immune system but being in the HVAC business I have found people are more and more weakened by airborne bacteria and now even the remains of destroyed bacteria are causing problems in some. I do see an improvement in some of them when the right filtering systems are employed so there is something to it. I wonder where it will end but it surely has made for some really big business for companies and ironically, more and more people are looking for these things that satisfy the "Howard Hughes Syndrome" as I call it. In my personal world, it's never been an issue.

Ditto.

When you spend most of your life indoors you are causing your problems, merely by remaining indoors.

Wow, this has been an amusing read. At first, I thought that the OP might be dealing with an immune deficient person at home. Now that I see that is not the case, the issue is probably really keeping the fungus counts low as you will never get them to zero. I am assuming that the allergic person has been tested for the source of the allergy and the conclusion is fungus.

I have been, from time to time, plagued by fungus in top loaders. I am sensitive to molds (allergies). I moved 5 times in 15 years for a spell. The climates were widely varied, but I have always left the top open between loads. Believe it or not, I think that the worst time was in Tucson! It might have been a peculiar problem with that washer, I suppose. I left it there when I moved.

I think that the OP should have things under control at this point. A top-loader, open between loads, coupled with an weekly hot wash of white laundry followed by bleach will probably give you the lowest practical level of mold in the residential laundry environment.

Anyone want an amusing alternative/hobby? Get a wringer washer, take it outside and build a big fire under a cauldron to boil the water to fill it and the rinse tubs. There are far fewer areas that stay damp in a wringer washer. Wringer washers are very efficient too.

Maryland, outdoor solar clothes dryers can be good for killing indoor microbes with the UV, but for people with pollen and some other allergies, it makes it worse. Even with my fungus allergies, I am usually fine with it and the price is right.

About the only place I concern myself with microbes or even bigger life forms is in hotels/motels. I take a big can of Lysol and spray everything so heavily, I have to vacate the room for an hour or so until the air clears and the bed spread and pillows dry.

Umm....you do know that's nuts, don't you?

Sure it's nuts, so are a lot of other things. But laying my head on someone else's dried up drool (or god knows what else) it is a positive reinforcement to have at least done something.

Ok. Good. Bye.

Um, maybe you should stay at a better class of hotel than a Knight's Inn. Priceline is your friend. Most good ones today have duvet and pillow covers that get washed with every change of guest just like the sheets do. By an industrial laundry. With real hot water and bleach. And I don't pay any more for staying in a 3 star than I would a 1 star.

I don't know about Maryland, but I worked three years as an Operating Engineer/Maintenance tech in a Quality Inn convention center here in Massachusetts and maintaining the
laundry equipment was one of my worst nightmares.

They had 200 rooms with a total of 750 beds and that place stays booked at 100% occupancy. That means they have to wash, dry and fold over 1500 sheets and 1500 to 2000 pillowcases a day, plus an average of 6000 towels and that doesn't even consider the table linens for the banquet setups.

They had 11 huge Huebish commercial upright washers and 4 Huebish commercial gas fired 250lb load dryers, and I can tell you, let any one of those machines go down for even a few minutes and they raised super he##.

The washing machines all were preset for 180deg water and the dryers all have UV sanitizers lights built in.

We had two huge boilers that burned 60gallon of fuel oil per hour. Two to heat the building and the third to produce steam for the water heaters in the laundry and steam tables in the kitchen.

Massachusetts state law requires that all bed linens must be changed daily while a room is occupied, and after checkout they must be changed before a new guest may even enter the room.

In addition, the carts that are used to transport the finished linens back to the guest room areas have to be wiped down inside and out with a sanitizing solution before they are reloaded.

Now in regards to your spraying the room down with Lysol. That is totally illegal and not only will it get you tossed out of the motel it can result in a $500 fine in this state.

I've stayed in the Ritz Carlton, Embassy Suites, Hampton Inn, Sheridan, Holiday Inn Express, right down to Econo Lodge, Motel 6 and even worse. It depends on what's available where I'm going to be. I assure you, everything doesn't get washed every day everywhere you go, despite what they may claim. I've watched the housekeeping staff in just about every place I have gone and some do change the comforters, some places do not. Some have replaced the pillows, some have not. Most will if you ask them to and stand there waiting. I've never had a reason to go to Mass. and don't think I will. But if I do and decide to use Lysol, I guess I'll be do a fine.
You know, there is probably a law somewhere that assures just about anything is against the law. That's what liability insurance is for. If someone wants to fine me for protecting my own health, let the lawyers fight it out. I've been approached about using Lysol before and when I insist on written documentation which assures the room is bacteria, germ and pollen free, I never hear from them again, just get looks, big deal. If you've watched various programs like 20/20 and others, you've seen the documentaries on how nasty even the best hotels are.

So thoroughly irresponsible. You are soaking the room with chemicals that readily absorb through skin. Do you have any idea the liability you are assuming by doing this? The Lysol is more likely to harm you, not to mention the next person who rents the room, than the bacteria. I find it difficult to believe anyone could graduate from highschool and be this ignorant.

Whole lotta weirdness goin' on. Whole lot.

I think the pillow itself is a sponge holding whatever anyone breathes into it for many hours.

I never use the hotel pillow. I will sleep without any pillow, or roll up some of my own clothing if I want a small headrest. I've often wondered if anyone brought their own pillow.

I've often wondered about the mattress pad under the sheet.
But, I fear there is nothing to be done.

I do not spray the room with any product.
I believe that Febreze is a good product, in general.
I never buy it. I don't need it at home.
(Febreze and others like it)

--

The general topic in the OP was germs.

I don't have big germs in my house.
I don't do anything special to destroy germs, at home.

I get rid of dust mites by washing things in water.
H2O.

come on Alice, big statements like that and beat down terminology has no merit at all. Lysol is used everywhere, even in Hospitals, which by the way your chances of streptococcus and other major infections are prevalent also. The Lysol isn't going to be absorbed by your skin unless you spray it on there. Why do I bother...arguing with a fool makes it hard for others to tell the difference...bye

I only called you ignorant, which implies only a lack of knowledge. Perhaps I misspoke. I should have said: willfully ignorant, which is indistinguishable from stupidity, implying lack of ability to learn, interpret and incorporate knowledge. My mistake.

Maryland...let it drop, they'll be back in school in a few weeks.

I just read the spec sheets, umm, those calling you ignorant are the ignorant ones. EPA controls the substance....Zero danger to humans if not ingested, may cause redness on some people if sprayed on skin.

quaternary amines, anyone? Just the thing for a good night's sleep.

JFC...and I'm sure they vote.

My Mom told me to always, always leave the lid open on the washing machine when it was not in use. I never asked her why, I just did it, because she was always right about stuff like that. Now I know why.

You don't have a dial on your hot water heater for temperature control? My DH likes the water super hot when he takes a bath instead of a shower and goes out there and cranks it to max. The hot water comes out steaming and will burn my hands if I don't remember to turn it down.