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Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Posted by asolo (My Page) on
Wed, Jul 6, 11 at 12:09

Maybe not my place to do this, but doing it anyway. The previous thread with 174 posts (over limit) won't let me reply. Taking the forum-master's advice and starting new thread via copying/pasting last post.

Previous thread long and filled with controversy. I'm interested in this poster's volunteering to provide feedback from his personal experience after new purchase. Previous posters, having declaimed about their personal experience, all disappeared.

Like Chad, I'm rooting for "technology" (I use Kinetico softeners) but the information/feedback from actual purchasers of the EasyWater units has been scant and controversial. If this fellow is willing to follow though, I'm interested in what he'll have to say over the next couple of months.

Here is copied/pasted post #174 from previous thread:

"RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Posted by Chad (cwilkins11@gmail.com) on Wed, Jul 6, 11 at 10:50

I just purchase an Easywater system after 3 years of hemming and hawing about what to do about my hard water problem. I have a Rinnai, and spoke to a field technician about the tests they did with Easywater. He wouldn't endorse the product, but did say that the system worked well in San Angelo, TX where the test was performed. I priced Kinetico and other salt type softeners earlier this year because I was beginning to get concerned that I would have to replace my Rinnai (which will be 4 years old in October). We are a single income family and the salt options were really out of our price range. I also didn't want to remove the minerals from our water - our water tastes great. But I need my Rinnai to keep working.
We built and moved into our home in 2007. Within 2 months we began to have flakes showing up in the aerators of sinks, showers and the hot water line on the washing machine. Easywater said three years ago they could solve these problems, but I read this forum and was very skeptical.

Last week, I got an email saying they were running a sale on all systems. So I got the 2200 system for $999, and they gave me a 120 day (typically a 90 day) money back guarantee. I haven't had any type of softener on our house since it was built and we moved in back in 2007. So far, I can't notice any difference (it was installed Friday - July 1, 2011, so we're only on day 5). I'm doing my best not to look for any changes, but to evaluate where I am at 45 days, and then again at 80 days. I don't intend to put the 120 day MBG to the test. If I don't see improvement by day 80, I will be getting an RMA to return it. I'm pulling for this thing to descale my water heater, sink sprayer and shower heads. We really haven't had many problems with our dishwasher, but we have always used quantum tabs from finish and jet dry.

Our water was tested earlier this year by 3 different softener technicians (installers / salesmen). Though the results varied, the conclusion was the same. I have a hard water problem. Iron isn't an issue at all. I simply have hard water at ~11gpg.

I see that some folks haven't reported back. I intend to do so. People need some options to help them make informed decisions. This is the only place where I could find "independent" information. Unfortunately, I'm not a chemist or engineer, so I don't understand half of what most of you people are saying. You're like the teacher on Charlie Brown to me. And the name calling and blind defense of salt without even considering that this technology MIGHT work tells me that some people may be defending something. Maybe not - maybe they are just passionate about what they do.

I'm rooting for technology here, because it was a better price. If it doesn't work, i've lost nothing. Either way, I intend to report back with my results to help others make a better decision for them.

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Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Moving on down.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Yo, "don 1 2006"....couldn't refrain for even five hours, huh? Guess we know where you're coming from.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I just wanted to follow up, so I decided to register. I'm 11 days into my Easywater installation, and honestly I can't tell a difference. The rep that sold me the unit called me last week to see how things were going. The unit is installed, and there is no difference is what I told him. He said he had no doubt that the system will work, and that he'd follow up with me in 45 days. Then he mentioned that it was noted in my file that I had posted on a web forum, which I thought was odd. But, I didn't try to hide who I was, and am still not trying to hide who I am. I'm sure they'll find this post as well (and probably post on this thread). I just hope we can get some good information out there for people. We know salt works, but the only thing anyone says about Easywater is to try it.

Well, i'm trying it. we'll see what happens.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Bear in mind that your water, even at 11gpg, is barely hard compared to the hardness many others are blessed with.

I hope the Easywater meets your expectations.

If it doesn't, I hope Easywater honors their word since they have noted in your file that you had posted on a web forum" and we're all watching to see if they do.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

i have spoken to another person who ordered an Easywater system and it didn't work for them. He said they were very cordial with handling the return.

At 11gpg, how much damage is being done to my Rinnai?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

"At 11gpg, how much damage is being done to my Rinnai?"

From what I understand tankless water heaters do not like any hardness at all and I have seen a disclaimer in the warranty language stating exactly that.

Check the hardness scale here... http://www.fcwa.org/water/hardness.htm

What do you think?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Thanks for following through, Chad.

11 grains is solidly mid-range hard. Given your own knowledge/intentions and your vendor's cooperation, this should be as good a user-trial as any.

Potential "damage" to your Rinnai would only occur over time in any event -- likely more time than this 45 days. However, your expectation according to the vendor should be noticeable differences throughout your water-usage pattern. You should be seeing less soap and detergent required for same results as before, for example.

What did the vendor tell you to look for in order to form your opinion about whether or not the unit is working?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Chad,

In re-reading your original post I find it interesting that you think people who do not accept saltless softening technology offer a "blind defense of salt without even considering that this technology MIGHT work".

You couldn't be more incorrect.

Anyone involved in water treatment has at least a fundamental understanding and working knowledge of chemistry, physics, and mechanics... all technical fields.

What we who do respect technology won't accept is the unsubstantiated and misrepresenting way in which scale reduction technology is portrayed as saltless softening to unsuspecting customers.

No person or company or laboratory or university has shown that ANY scale reducing device (whether magnetic, electrical, media, or wishful thinking) has reduced the hardness in water by one grain per gallon in a controlled lab environment by a recognized independent body.

When that happens the world will take a look and decide. As long as saltless softeners are driven by the marketing department and not the engineering department I will continue to wait.

Regarding your situation... after 3.5 years @ 11 gpg you have already run sufficient water through your Rinnai to reduce the service life of a conventional softener by half.

If you install a correctly sized softener and set it up to run efficiently ultimately the hardness in the Rinnai will migrate out into the hot water and be gone.

There are more cost effective alternatives than the ones you were quoted although I find it interesting that you decided to make a significant investment in a tankless water heater but stop short of investing in a softener which would insure the maximum service life of that Rinnai and all your plumbing, appliances, fixtures, and save you money in other ways.

You were willing to experiment with the Easywater so why not call Culligan and have them rent you a tank exchange softener? Then you could make an informed decision based on your first hand experience.

BTW, the only minerals removed from your water with an ion exchange softener are calcium carbonate (hardness), iron, and manganese.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

"blind defense of salt without even considering that this technology MIGHT work tells me that some people may be defending something."

If you have a new system or process it is up to the originator to show it works.

So far they have not.

They have waved their hands, spouted garbage, ans claimed 'molecular changes' that have not been demonstrated.

It is advertising, nothing more, nothing less.
The methods they are claiming have no basis in science.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Regarding soap and laundry - we've seen no difference - which is what I told the guy from Easywater when he called back last week. Friday will mark 2 weeks since the installation - still no difference. In fact, I installed a new shower head 2 days before the easywater unit arrived (because the old one was cracked - not because of scale issues) and the new one is already getting the same scale buildup causing it to spray in different directions. Thankfully the water comes out of rubber nipples, so I can clean the head easily to correct that problem. Still no change in the sprayer on my sink, which shoots everyway but straight.

In response to justalurker - I didn't dig around too much on Easywater's website before I placed the order, but I dont' recall seeing any claims that their unit actually removed the minerals. I am no chemist or engineer, but I do understand the basics of what they say the unit does. I didn't purchase the unit to remove the minerals, in fact my hope are that it will descale my fixtures (and water heater) without having to purchase a softener, primarily because I don't have anywhere to put one except in the garage, but then I would need a drain installed, right?

As for the investment in the tankless and not a softener - this was my first experience with a tankless heater. When we built the house, the builder (who happens to be a friend of mine) sold me on the tankless because he has one. He also (at the time) lived in the same neighborhood where we were building. When we discussed the Rinnai, he said that some people put a softener on their house because of the warranty issue on the Rinnai, but he also said that he didn't put one on his and he hadn't had any problems. This issue with scale breaking off in the heat exchanger was new to him. I had just turned 30, sold my first house and started building this one with the intent of selling within 5 years (if the market held / comes back). I had no clue what I was doing, and was leaning on my builder to guide me. He did that as well as I believe he knew how.

Again, I believe the proof is in the pudding. If within 45-60 days I haven't seen an improvement to my shower heads and sink sprayer, I'll likely go ahead and send it back and move to a salt solution. At that point, I'll be back asking for recommendations (if it comes to that - I'm still pulling for the technology).


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

This "waiting period" for observable results has been one reason (among many) I've not pursued these devices. They seem to require that I believe first and then wait and hope for actual results. (The return policy described certainly helps.)

With traditional softeners, the difference is observable more-or-less instantly....well, instantly with cold taps and within a few days as the water-heater cycles through. No cognitive dissonance intrudes with that observable/verifiable on-the-spot result.

It seems to me that difference alone would mean a considerable amount of time must pass for the "technology" to overcome resistance in the marketplace even if they all worked exactly as represented. It's always been like that when new technology attempting to displace the "tried and true" has come to market.

I'm not a scientific type or techie. I'm just a garden-variety home-owner that likes quality water and no maintenance headaches. I have that with my Kineticos, now, but if there's a better/cheaper way to get what I want, I could get interested. I'll be changing houses in due course. The consideration will come again. In that way, I think I'm similar to Chad.

The controversy I've read here doesn't bolster my enthusiasm for the "saltless" products. I have been dismayed to read about dissatisfied customers combined with supposedly satisfied customers that quickly drop away from the discussion. Chad's willingness to share his personal, no-agenda, retail-buyer experience with this well-known vendor could be very interesting.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Chad,

You said "We are a single income family and the salt options were really out of our price range. I also didn't want to remove the minerals from our water - our water tastes great" and that was what my comment addressed.

I find it interesting that you use the word technology in regards to Easywater yet don't in regards to ion exchange softening which is sound and proven science... I mean technology.

Your didn't choose to embrace existing technology that has been proven for decades and decades and decades and decades by hundreds of millions of people worldwide. You chose to embrace new technology that, up to this point, has not been proven by any independent authority or scientific body.

"... he said that some people put a softener on their house because of the warranty issue on the Rinnai"

That should have told you that Rinnai knew something.

As good a friend and as well meaning as your builder is, what builders and plumbers and handymen and sales people at Sears amd Lowes and HD don't know about water treatment is equal to what you don't know, but you know you don't know and they don't.

Me, I go with what works... not what might work and how would I know if it did? Wait for my megabuck tankless heater to die?

We are all interested in what you determine...


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

"You chose to embrace new technology that, up to this point, has not been proven by any independent authority or scientific body."

I think that's a little strong. Chad said "Well, i'm trying it. we'll see what happens." with the vendor's cooperation/support backed by a promise of free return if he's dissatisfied. Seems to me he hasn't "embraced" anything in particular yet. Seems to me he's clearly reserving judgement.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I am reserving judgement. I have 5 children, and another on the way. The fewer things I have to maintain the better, which allows me to spend more time with my family, which is my passion. I know that the better salt solutions work, and that they are relatively maintnance free. I looked at Kinetico, Culligan and Hague - all of which offered a great solution with me having to only add one bag of salt maybe once per month, according to the sales rep. However, those solutions were $2500 and up, which I struggled with spending at the time. This was $1000, with a money back guarantee, and I couldn't find a single person anywhere that had used this, only folks here and other places that said there's no way it works. My problem with that is that the company has been in business for some time, and has been advertising nationally for at least 3 years. If their product was a scam, I figure someone would have figured that out and they would have gone out of business. So, with that, I figure I don't have much of anything to lose, except three more months of untreated water.

I consider ion exchange to be science - not technology. But it's not a point worth arguing over. I don't claim to understand technology or science. I'm just some stupid consumer hoping to solve my hard water problems.

Having said that - I did speak to a field tech from Rinnai three years ago, and he provided me with a flush procedure for my Rinnai. I asked him about the Easywater tests, and he said that they worked in San Angelo, TX, but couldn't be sure Easywater would work everywhere - it depended on the mineral makeup in the water.

So, I'm trying it. I haven't written off salt. My preference is just not to use that method.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

You can have an ion exchange solution installed for around the $1000 you spent on the Easywater... maybe less since you have a softener loop now.

Correctly sized and efficiently set up you can have 0 hardness water and your maintenance would be 32 lbs of salt used per month (less than a 40 lb bag), your softener would regenerate every 7 days or so, and possibly cleaning out your brine tank once a year. You could really go overboard and dump one gallon of hot tap water into the brine well once a month to deter salt bridging. How's that for minimal maintenance.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

After going through 173 posts on the other thread (many of them from you) plus homework on his own -- as he's said -- it seems pretty clear to me Chad has the softener info well in mind. He's also well aware of all the controversy that's come before about the Freije unit.

He's made a decision to try this with support and money-back warranty from the vendor with his promise of reporting here and their awareness of it. We've got a regular retail customer with informed vendor participation in the purchase. This will be the first time such an example has been made available to us. What say we sit back and let it play through?

Otherwise, we're going to blast this thread up beyond the limit before his trial-time is up.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Asolo,

Chad impresses me as perfectly capable of typing his thoughts and does not appear to require a second.

Based on Chad's post and the prices he notes for softener quotes he does not have all the information he thinks he does, but I bow to your wishes as the owner of this thread and this will be my last post.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Oh, for heavens' sake. Whatever.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

The Kinetico guy did offer a solution that started at $1100 installed. But I got the impression that wasn't much better than a $800 unit I could get at Lowes.

So fill me in. What type of unit would be the best bang for my buck? When I priced the salt systems, i looked at three "experts" locally. All 3 tested my water and came back with different hardness results from 7-11 gpg. PH between 7.2 and 7.6. Iron undetectable - some minute amount.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I am a Kinetico customer. Have been for almost 20 years, now. However, they are typically a high-end vendor. If your getting low-ball from them I would be wary of the suggested unit being capable of handling your requirements. Don't know what they suggested and am not knowledgeable enough to judge even if you'd provided specific "solution" info.

Justalurker has an incredible amount of knowledge in this area. I regret that I pissed him off. I was sorry to see him go.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I would rather have a ten-year-old Kinetico than a brand new BigBox unit. There is really no comparison. If he can get you a 41100 Kinetico, take it. Make sure it works of course.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Just to follow up with everyone, lest I be thought of as one of those that doesn't follow up...

I am going into my 4th week on the Easywater system. The two most notible areas of buildup (the upstairs shower head and the side sprayer on the kitchen sink) show no signs of clearing up - or descaling. They still spray just like they did the day the unit was installed. We have seen no difference in the use of our soap or laundry detergent.

So, nearly 1/3 of the way into the guarantee, I'm skeptical, but willing to give it another 60 days.

More later...


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

And last night, I noticed that the shower head in the master bath (the new shower head) has three streams that are no longer spraying straight.

I was disappointed, to say the least. It's not looking good...


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Any more feedback from the vendor at this point? Maybe verification install was done correctly or anything like that?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

They have called twice (Friday and Monday), but I haven't been able to answer. It wasn't my sales rep, so I'm not too worried about calling them back. My rep said he would follow up with me around 45 days, so that's really when I expect to hear something.

I can say that it was installed exactly according to their specifications. It's on the cold water main on the house side of my pressure tank. It is on a 1/2 inch PVC pipe, and their direction was to single wrap 18 inches. So, 18 inch single wrap, tightly done - the only "question" that could arise from it is whether the "treatment" should occur before or after my whole house filter. Right now, it's before the filter. I can't imagine that would make a difference.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Easywater called yesterday and I was able to talk to them. A couple of things to note before I go into the conversation:

1) It wasn't the same guy that sold the unit to me. My saleman had been on vacation a couple of weeks ago, and this guy, for some reason, called to check up on me in his absense.

2) At the end of our conversation, I asked if I should contact him or my original salesman. He stumbled a second, saying either, and then deciding to say that I should only call him, since I had talked to him for 30 minutes last night. Odd, to say the least. But, whatever.

So, he asks how things are going, and I tell him, point blank, 'I see no difference. Anywhere. Our soap usage hasn't changed, my shower heads and sink sprayer aren't clearing up, and I'm still having to clean out the scale flakes from my aerators that are created in the Rinnai tankless water heater.'

We start talking about the shower heads. I tell him that they are identical, but one was newer than the other, not because of scale issues, but because I dropped the old one in the shower while cleaning scale flakes out of the screen in the head. He asked how I kept the scale off of the shower head, and I explained that the shower heads discharge water out of rubber nipples that I can clean very easily by just scraping with my finger nail to keep them flowing smoothly. He tells me that Easywater can't fix that problem because those nipples hold water them that dries up, leaving mineral buildup behind. To me, it sounded an awful lot like scale buildup, but he said it was not - it was evaporative mineral buildup. Still sound the same to me since scale is made up of minerals that are left behind when water isn't present. No big deal -it's never been a huge problem.

Then we go to the sink sprayer. Now, when I purchased this unit, the guy who sold me the unit told me a story about either a client or friend of his who bought an old house that had a sprayer that barely had any pressure. He said within 45 days the pressure was back, and within 60 days it was like new. We use the sprayer on our sink quite a bit, so I would expect it to have made some improvement by now - it has not. He said that Easywater also struggles with sink sprayers for the same reason - water dries leaving mineral buildup behind. He suggested I tap it on a towel after using it. When I tell him about this story my salesman told me, he said that he wasn't aware of it, and had always heard of problems on the Easywater system with sprayers. I told him that I could probably get the same results by tapping the sprayer on the towel without the $1000 Easywater system - he, of course, disagreed.

On to the tankless heater. He asked about the flaking, and how often I have to empty faucets. I told him it depends on how long it's been since I vinegar flushed the Rinnai, which I do about ever 6-9 months. Since I just did it in April, I'm not having to clean them as much, so it's not a big deal. But, the primary reason I purchased Easywater was to protect my water heater. He went on to tell me that Rinnai is not made up of water experts. Apparently, there is a screen in some Rinnai tankless heaters that can catch these flakes, and thereby reduce the water flow out of the heater (if that were the case, I would think that I would see less flakes as they build up and make the screen less passable - right?). So, he suggested that I, rather than following Rinnai's direction on flushing the heater (which is 3 gallons of white vinegar for 45 minutes), use 3 gallons to flush it for about 15 minutes, then do another (fresh) three gallons for 15 minutes, until the exchanger is free from scale. Now, I know nothing about acids and bases, other than they are opposites and acid burns my esophagus from time to time. But he said that the scale is basic, and the vinegar is acidic, so as the vinegar removes the scale, it loses its acidity. When that happens, it's not removing scale from the exchanger any longer. So, I have to keep changing out the vinegar until all of the scale is gone. I'll know it's gone when I drop a few of the flakes from one of the faucets into the bucket and they start to bubble.

He said that if the exchangers were free from scale, they would absolutely prevent any new buildup. Again, this is NOT what they told me upon buying the unit. I was told that it would descale anything currently in the house, including (especially) my tankless water heater. He also said that even a salt system couldn't do this because they CANNNOT remove all of the minerals from the water.

So, I would absolutely love some feedback here from some of the water experts on the board (justalurker - it would be nice if you could add your input here). I'm very close to sending the unit back primarily because now the story is changing from what they told me when I bought the unit. That has me upset. To this guy's credit, he did say that they would be willing to extend the money back guarantee time frame to make sure that it was working on my heater, and that they wanted me to be happy with the product. He finished by saying if I was not happy, that I could send it back at any time.

So, help?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

For Chad,

Excuses and reasons are not the same. The thing about salesman(woman)ship is that it's hard to remember exactly what the customer was told a week or month ago and repeat it.

Regardless how long you use the Easywater, the laws of chemistry and physics will not change to accommodate their marketing goals. Wishing, wanting, and marketing departments won't make it so.

Make no mistake... the water treatment industry anxiously awaits a no salt SOFTENING solution that works and is cost effective and when it arrives will be embraced by the industry, consumers, and the California state government with open arms.

For now, ion exchange by a correctly sized and efficiently set up softener softens water cost effectively and reliably... no brag, just fact.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Disappointing report...but very interesting. Clearly you didn't purchase the unit in order to be saddled with additional procedures. You're wise to have that return policy nailed down.

Must say I am impressed with the dealer's follow-up and willingness to cooperate, though. Still, positive results are the nut and you haven't seen any so far.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

You have to give those boys credit. They can come up with more excuses than trainers of thoroughbred race horses.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

so, does ion exchange remove all minerals from water?

Also, here are the results from the Kinetico guy that came out in April. What would the experts recommend based on this?

Clarity - Clear with very little evidence of sediment
Hardness - 11 grains per gallon (extremely hard)
Iron - Not detected
pH - 7.2 (perfect!)
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) - 220 PPM (moderate to high � consistent with hardness)


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Ion exchange softeners remove calcium (hardness), iron, and manganese which are mostly responsible for scale and staining.

Those elements are exchanged for either sodium or potassium ions depending on which regenerant you choose to use.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

so what should I look at as a ion exchange solution based on the above information?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

How many people in the family?
How many bathrooms?
Any high water use appliances like an uber shower or Jacuzzi?
Plumbing at the softener loop is 3/4" or 1"?
You're on a municipal water system... right?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

"On to the tankless heater. He asked about the flaking, and how often I have to empty faucets. I told him it depends on how long it's been since I vinegar flushed the Rinnai, which I do about ever 6-9 months. "

Here's a clue.

If his product worked there would be no new scale in the water heater to need cleaning.

But that would be based on the chemistry of the past few hundred years, and not his 'new' chemistry.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

8 people (2 adults 6 children)
2.5 baths
no high water use appliances
no softener loop - this unit is installed on my cold main off the pressure tank
private well


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Plumbing off the pressure tank... 3/4" or 1" or ?

You'll need a drain and an electrical outlet.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

How many GPM do you get?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

3/4 inch off of pressure tank. i have an outlet in the garage, but no drain.

12gpm, 340 well, pump at 290ft.(if that matters)


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

You will need either a drain or plumb to a drain to dispose of the effluent during softener regeneration. You'll also need to accommodate the safety overflow on the brine tank.

Since the effluent generated during regeneration is a high salt concentration you don't want to run it out on the ground and most city and county codes prohibit doing it.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

is it safe to go into a septic tank?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

"is it safe to go into a septic tank?"

That question is a debate in itself...

While it is done in many places by many people and I have yet to see a definite study that says it is bad to do there are people who believe that it is bad to do.

I have a septic system and send my effluent to a dry well.

This may be of interest... http://www.wqa.org/sitelogic.cfm?ID=363


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

so, based on the information i provided, what type of salt softener do you recommend?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

The one with the least effluent/best efficiency would be Kinetico.....which is also at the high-end money-wise. No power-supply required either. However, they like to do everything themselves. If you're not in their service area, the added expense can be prohibitive.

Certainly there are other lesser-priced more conventional units that will work fine on timers and may (or may not) be easier to obtain at your location. Certainly more DIY-friendly if DIY is where you're at.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

A specific volume of resin regenerated by a specific volume of brine will treat the same grains of hardness regardless of the name on the softener.

Kinetico has no advantage in efficiency over an industry standard twin resin tank softener configured the same way.

A Kinetico twin resin tank softener is slightly more efficient than an industry standard single resin tank softener at many times the price and you will be married to that Kinetico dealer for parts and service.

"Certainly there are other lesser-priced more conventional units that will work fine on timers..."

A timer based softener is not recommended. That is old softener technology and not very efficient. Contemporary industry standard softeners in both single and twin resin tank versions are almost always sold with demand initiated (Kinetico is demand initiated) technology.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

So here is the latest update on my situation with Easywater.

After thinking things through, and discussing further with someone above the sales reps I have talked to in the past, I want to give this product another shot. I actually de-installed the unit last Thursday evening and called Easywater Friday (the rep that I purchased the unit from) to return the product. He didn�t answer, so I left a message. I received a call back, not from my rep, but from a manager in the company. He talked to me for a while (very nice gentleman) about the product. He did say that the rep that sold me the unit was one of their newest folks, and apologized for the misinformation I had received.

He reiterated the same things that I was told on my last call. Because the Easywater system does not remove minerals from the water, there will be issues with some showerheads and faucets. This was not a huge problem before Easywater, and hasn�t been a problem after. The main reason I purchased this system was to protect my Rinnai tankless heater. After talking for a while, I have decided to continue the experiment on the Easywater system to see if it will protect my heater. They have offered to extend the money back guarantee and I fully believe they will honor that. If I can get some proof that my tankless is being protected by this system, I'll be happy.

I'll keep you all posted.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Impressed by the response and follow-up by dealer. Warranty extension admirable.

"Misinformation" part a bit annoying at this late date, however.

Can you say nature of "misinformation" revealed?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Chad,

I find it interesting that, despite being lied to, you are willing to give them another chance. The things your salesman told you are the same things their ads and their website specify. It sounds like a classic snake-oil sales strategy to me. Now you've been passed along to the "manager" who blames the salesman for misinformation, when the salesman was merely giving you the pitch he was given. Do you really think they let their salesmen out the door without standard answers to the most likely questions?

The following is from their website - your salesman told you exactly what he was supposed to tell you.

"First 1 -2 weeks

Soap will lather easier.
Spots on dishes will be reduced or eliminated depending on your water hardness.
Detergent and soap amounts can be reduced 25% or more depending on water hardness levels.

First 90 days

Scale deposits will begin to loosen and breakdown from your pipes, water heater and other water appliances.
Clothes will feel softer out of the laundry.
Mold and mildew will begin to disappear.

Long Term Benefits

No salt to buy or maintenance EVER!
Inside your pipes and water appliances will be de-scaled and remain scale-free protecting your home from future damage.
Your water heater will last significantly longer due to the lack of scale deposits. The elimination of scale will also reduce your energy bills over time.
Your washing machine, dishwasher, ice maker, reverse osmosis system and other water appliances in your home will last significantly longer.
Your clothes will last longer by reducing the damaging effects of hard water."

Liar's lie. I would get the extended evaluation period IN WRITING, signed by the owner. If you don't, you will find that when you call the manager to have the Easywater removed, he will not call you back and you will be passed on to his manager, who will know nothing about your extended evaluation period.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Maybe I am being lied to. At this point, I honestly don't know. However, I am a firm believer in capitalism. I have a hard time believing that a company selling a scam product would be able to stay in business as long as they have, while contuing to scam big names like WalMart and Frito-Lay. It seems to me that anyone or any company selling a scam product would have gone out of business by now or at least been exposed by someone that has actually used the product. It also seems that a company offering a 90 day money back guarantee knows that their product works.

I do know for a fact that Easywater (including Bill Freije himself) is following this thread closely. I'm pretty sure they have an interest in getting some positive feedback on their product to the masses. As a consumer, I've been frustrated that all I can find on Easywater are Easywater marketing spots quoted straight from their webpage, or venom spewed from people who have never tried the product.

I've decided to give it a try, and have promised to provide the outcome here so others can at least see one person's experience with this device. If it doesn't work, I've lost nothing. If it does, well, my tankless water heater is protected.

So far, everyone I've spoken with at Easywater has been very professional and pleasent to talk to, even amid my skepticism about the product's viability. I expect nothing less from them going forward.

As I said before - my primary concern is protecting my tankless water heater. If I can do that with this product, then mission accomplished. If not, I'll move on to something else. However, Easywater asked me to give them another shot, and I'm going to do that. I have nothing to lose. If that makes me bumbling, naive idiot, then so be it. Maybe I can at least help someone else a little less of an idiot.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

How will you be determining whether or not the EasyWater is protecting your water heater? Do you have a way to measure heat transfer? How will you know if it is scaling worse, better, the same? What are the parameters? What is the measurement for success/failure?

Visible results (or lack thereof) at faucets you can at least see. When those failed to produce the promised results, Easywater asked you to measure by something you can't see and can't measure. Well, technically, you could measure it, but it would require that you either A) cut you heat exchange tube and actually measure scale, or B) install accurate flow meters on gas and water to your water heater, along with accurate temperature and pressure gauges at inlet and outlet water.

Companies bank on the fact the most consumers (including most commercial consumers, such as Walmart) are ignorant [NOT stupid, just lacking knowlege] about chemistry and technology. You can fool a whole lot of people and make a lot of money before being proven wrong. Once people spend money on something, they tend to convince themselves it worked so as not to look foolish. Just off the top of my head, I can think of several products that are making money for the sellers without actually benefiting consumers, while still selling more every day: pick a gas-mileage increase device (there are lots), cigarettes (remember when they were touted as good for your lungs?), slap the word green on a product and see how well it sells (regardless of performance or any proof that it is "green"). A savy business person will make money on a 90-day return. They get the use of your money for three months, plus whatever time it takes them to process your return.

I do appreciate your open mind and willingness to report your results here. I think it's great. I just want to point out that you need to decide what measurable success is to avoid measuring by feelings. As for me, I would be perfectly willing to test Easywater or other products like it if they would do it on their dime rather than mine. I made that same offer numerous times as an engineer at an industrial facility and found that the chemical and ion exchange folks jumped on the chance every time and the electronic treatment folks always declined once it was clear there would be quantitative measurements used to determine success/failure.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

"I have a hard time believing that a company selling a scam product would be able to stay in business as long as they have..."

I'm sure that many of Bernie Maddoff's investors and business associates wonder the same thing... in retrospect, but it doesn't change the FACT that he did what he did to many knowledgeable people and business associates as long as he did it

"I've been frustrated that all I can find on Easywater are Easywater marketing spots quoted straight from their webpage, or venom spewed from people who have never tried the product..."

Don't substitute the word VENOM for FACT or for the frustration that no independent scientific validation of the claimed performance of the product is to be found and that their claims fly in the face of established and proven scientific fact validated by independent scientific review.

I don't need to jump off a building to prove that I can't fly.

It is not that anyone doesn't want this technology(?) to work it is that the company can not produce any independent scientific evidence that it does. It is more profitable to put money into the marketing department than the engineering department and as P.T. Barnum so eloquently put it... "there's a sucker born every minute" and that is a huge potential market..


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I am looking into this system because our condo association won't allow water softeners to be installed. I am under no illusion that this is an actual water SOFTENER, but it would be nice to reduce scale in the pipes and appliances. I am a biochemist not a water chemist, but at least I understand the underlying principles. From what I have gathered so far, there is actually published evidence that magnetic/electronic water treatment CAN change the scale-forming properties of hard water. The bits of information I have gleaned include:

1. the changes in the water subjected to this treatment lasts about 200 hours - so it could maintain the properties through the pipe downstream
2. the minerals are still present so if water is left to evaporate it will still leave behind white Ca, Mg residue, but in situations where the water is flowing through (eg showerhead) the minerals would not deposit as much

Here are some relevant references I found followed by the links to the journal articles

***
Conclusions
4. The (hkil)-specific coalescence of calcite and rapid lath growth of aragonite under the combined Lorentz force and precondensation effects caused a beneficial larger particulate/colony size of the CaCO3 to be removed from the steel substrate.
http://www.nanoscalereslett.com/content/5/12/1982

***

The magnetic treatment of scaling waters was proved to be efficient. The efficiency obtained with this very simple magnetic device can be very much improved if the geometry is better devised. An empirical relationship which gives the change of the ionic calcium concentration in function of the length of the device and of the flow velocity of the scaling water was established. There is a maximum efficiency at an optimal flow of the water to treat.
Commonly, authors have ascribed the magnetic treatment effect to MHD processes. However, the efficiency of the magnetic treatment depends on the material used to build the pipe where the water flows through the gap of the device. This may indicate that electrokinetic phenomena could be involved, alone or in conjunction with MHD processes, at the level of the walls of the pipe to generate calcium carbonate nuclei and even at the level of the growth of the calcium carbonate particles in the water bulk.
Thorough experiments have to be conducted to check these hypothesis and to assess the possible mechanisms of antiscale action of the magnetic field.

http://www.ecaa.ntu.edu.tw/weifang/water/Magnetic water treatment for scale prevention.pdf

abstract is you don't have library access:
http://www.ecaa.ntu.edu.tw/weifang/water/Magnetic water treatment for scale prevention.pdf

***

Carbonates formed by heating water containing +120 mg(Ca)/l are characterized by X-ray di!raction and electron microscopy. Tests on 32 pairs of samples establish, at the 99.9% probability level, that drawing water through a static magnetic "eld (B+0.1T, 􏰃B+10 T/m) increases the aragonite/calcite ratio in the deposit. There is an incubation period of several hours, and memory of magnetic treatment extends beyond 200 h. 􏰈 2000 Elsevier Science B.V. All rights reserved.

In conclusion, we have established that a magnetic "eld e!ect exists. Passing water through a magnetic "eld subsequently favours formation of aragonite rather then calcite in our experiments, and the in#uence of the treat- ment persists for more than two hundred hours. Further experiments on ultra-pure calcium carbonate solutions are needed to test the hypotheses regarding the mecha- nism by which the magnetic field produces the e!ect.

http://www.ecaa.ntu.edu.tw/weifang/water/Magnetic water treatment.pdf

***

This paper discusses the mechanism for magnetic water treatment, which has been used practically for over a century but is still not completely understood. Modified crystallization and agglomeration, which produce a less tenacious scale, retain this property for hours following treatment. It is considered to be a result of magnetically modified hydration and Lorentz force effects of magnetic devices. In treated water, as a complex solution/dispersion system, they affect the kinetics of processes at solution/solid interfaces. Which effect prevails depends on the treatment regime and water composition.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14632427

***

So what do you all think of that?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

My opinion on this issue:

Some folks believe so firmly that the technology CANNOT work, that they refuse to listen to anything that contradicts their point of view.

Having said that:

I am giving Easywater another chance to show me they can do what they say they will do with regard to treating water.

Today begins a new trial.

If you are interested in my results, email me in 60 days. I'll report back then.

Otherwise, this is a useless argument, in my opinion.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Yup, intelligent, knowledgeable, and open minded people believe in technology that is proven and wait for the unproven technology to prove itself... not in one person's home but in the lab under independent and controlled circumstances. What an inflexible position... how unconsumer like?

Einstein said "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". Give 'em another chance Chad. Is that the second or third chance?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

How will you measure results?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Alice,

My tankless has been completely flushed. When I run vinegar through the heat exchanger now, it comes out clear with no fizzing.

If i get scale buildup in the tankless (Easywater says I will not), then I'll know.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Ok folks - here is my update. I've received quite a few emails lately from people that have read the threads asking about my results.

By now, you all know that my primary concern is protecting my tankless water heater. I expressed that to the folks at Easywater when I called to return the system. What I didn't tell everyone here is that Easywater actually flew two of their folks to my house - well, the airport closest to my house - to do the following:

1) Replace the open box system I purchased at a discount for a brand new system, in case the open box system wasn't working.
2) Install a high temperature filter on my hot water line to stop the scale flakes from being a nuisance while their system had the opportunity to work (which I opted NOT to install because I wanted to see results in my aerators and because I didn't want to have to change another filter under my house).
3) Flush my tankless heater according to the instructions they provided - a couple of gallons at a time until there was no more reaction / bubbling in the vinegar, telling us that all scale was removed from the exchanger coils.
4) they would do this at NO COST to me.

So they (a high up manager in the company and one of his employees) came out on August 26th, a Friday and spent several hours flushing my heater - 18 gallons worth of vinegar - until it was clear of scale build-up. They did tell me that it was possible that I have a faulty heater, which I think I mentioned earlier on this forum. The reasoning behind that was due to two of my neighbors having tankless heaters with very similar (darn near identical water) and them NOT having the issue with scale flakes. He said it is possible that the overheating of the coils could lead to this flake problem.

In just 4 weeks, the flakes are back. I contacted Easywater, and they contacted Rinnai, who has stated they will change out my heater coil under warranty and inspect it to see if they can determine if there is a problem with the water heater. I did talk to a technician at Rinnai about Easywater, and he said that under certain conditions, Easywater performs remarkably well at eliminating and preventing scale buildup in their exchangers. I asked about the conditions and he could not (or would not) elaborate.

So I hope to have the heater coil changed out this week and sent off to Rinnai. They are going to work with the technicians in Japan to see what, if anything is going on. There may be more things they decide to change out, but we'll see.

Let me say - I can't say 100% that I am sold on Easywater. But I will say that they are a company of integrity and that I have no fears that I am being taken advantage of. If anything, I've lost the ability to use the $1000 I spent on the system during this "test" period, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I will get that money back if the system doesn't work for me, regardless of timing. I've got that in an email from Bill Freije himself.

And based on my conversations with him, he is an honest man who is trying to revolutionize the water treatment industry. There are a lot of folks on this board that say a lot of unwarranted things about him and his company.

And with that, I'll let the water treatment elite tell me how foolish I am.

For everyone else, please continue to email me with questions.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I think you're a fine fellow for keeping the feedback coming. I will continue to follow.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

"There are a lot of folks on this board that say a lot of unwarranted things about him and his company."

I believe that the only things that anyone has said is that the product has no scientific basis, and no independent studies, to support the mercurial claims. Other than that, I'm sure that Bill is a swell guy.

Thanks for continuing to post your results.

We were all looking for someone who had actually used the product - so far the end-user feedback is consistent with the anticipated results.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

1. If i get scale buildup in the tankless (Easywater says I will not), then I'll know.

2. He said it is possible that the overheating of the coils could lead to this flake problem.

3. In just 4 weeks, the flakes are back.

4. And with that, I'll let the water treatment elite tell me how foolish I am.

#1 is true.

#2 is also true, but deceptive. Yes, overheated coils will cause scale buildup to flake off. However, it is not the cause of the scale buildup - that is due to heating up hard water. Varying the amount of heat will cause a bit more scale buildup but, ultimately, this is just what happens when you heat hard water. The fact that neighbors don't have flakes does not indicate they don't have buildup - theirs just doesn't happen to be coming off in flakes.

#3 seems self explanatory.

#4 No, but your level of patience is extraordinary.

I look forward to your next update.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Maybe my patience is due to foolishness. I want this product to work, and I'll allow Easywater to do anything and everything they can to make this product work for me.

Rinnai told me yesterday that they have gotten excellent results with Easywater under certain conditions. Maybe my conditions don't meet that criteria. But for a third party to make that claim tells me that I should at least continue trying - or at least continue to allow Easywater to try. They are now pushing Rinnai to look at the heater.

Once Rinnai says they are done, and that my heater is functioning properly, I will flush the coils with vinegar again (just as the folks from Easywater did) and give it four weeks. If I have new scale buildup, then the unit will go back, and I'll report here.

I want it to work, but with each passing day I'm less optimistic.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Chad,

I suspect that whatever success the Rinnai tech was noting with the Easywater was in a narrow set of circumstances that apparently are not common because if they were, there would be more reports of success.

I'd think that with water of VERY low hardness the chances of satisfactory Easywater performance increases... like 1-2 gpg hardness.

You've already followed a simple concise, and scientific procedure during your trial and chemistry has again won out over marketing.

Wanting it to work, whether just you or millions do, won't make it do so and Easywater has done nothing at your home that isn't laid out in their literature and left-handedly blaming the Rinnai seems kinda lame as Rinnai never told you that they had direct, first hand (like in their own lab) experience seeing the Easywater work with their WH.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

At this point, I can't argue with anything you've said. However, I still have nothing to lose, so I might as well let Easywater take this as far as they are willing to take it. Maybe my patience will be rewarded with positive results. I'm hoping for that. I realize that hoping for something to work doesn't make a hill of beans difference to the outcome, but if I end the "experiment" now, I'll always wonder what might have happened if I had let this run its course.

So, I'm willing to let it run its course. It'll either end with Easywater working and me being happy with the product, or with me sending the unit back and getting a refund.

Even if the latter does happen, I'll never say anything negative about Easywater. I believe they are on the cusp of revolutionizing the water treatment industry, and I sincerely hope they succeed.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I don't believe anybody said anything negative about Easywater, the company, or Bill... the criticism is focused on the claims for the product and the fact that they are not scientifically proven. It seem disingenuous to sell a product based on a scientific action or reaction and then not allow or use science to report the product's performance or failure.

As I posted previously... Einstein said "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

And Albert experimented a LOT more than you, me, or most people..


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

So what's your point?


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

The point is that lots of people, including many on this forum, would like to see Easywater type products work but when given multiple chances none have.

Regardless of how many time you flush your WH with vinegar the hard water will continue to deposit scale because heating hard water precipitates scale and the Easywater has shown it's inability to remove the scale and you've seen that with your own eyes repeatedly in your own home.

I admire your persistence in "... doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I wonder, how many more times are you going to say, "I told you so" on this topic?

I am being patient in this endeavour because I believe it is the right thing to do. I have nothing to lose by being patient.

This will end in one of two ways:

1) Rinnai admits to, and fixes my faulty water heater, and the Easywater system then prevents scale from building up in the heat exchanger.

2) Rinnai does all they are willing to do, and the Easywater system doesn't solve my problems, in which case I return the unit and get my money back.

Either way I've lost nothing.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Interesting situation.

The thing about Easy Water, Magnets, and other non-standard treatments, is that there is a certain percent of the population that wants them to work so bad, that they keep trying the technology after multiple failures.

Chad - I give you credit for trying, but it seems to me, that they way oversold you on what the unit could do. Some might say, they lied. You have not seen any of the results that they promise on their website. It says it will descale your appliances. It did not.

18 gallons of vinegar to clean your water heater doesn't sound like a hassle-free alternative to a water softener.

Bill Freije - if you do monitor this forum, please post. You have saturated television and radio with your ads, so might as well support your product and tell Chad why his unit didn't perform as advertised.

I've talked to Bill Freije. He was involved in supplying a magnet / electronic device to treat water for a very large steam boiler. The questions he asked me on the phone made it very clear to me that he didn't know anything about treating water in a steam boiler. After using this system, the boiler blew a tube due to scale formation and overheating. Despite these failures, this plant continues to experiment with magnets because they WANT them to work.

Chad - I wish you luck with this, but please don't let them convince you to keep trying various fixes. Hold them accountable - they said it would descale your system and it didn't. If they were competent, they would know under what conditions the system fails, and prevent you the hassle, time, and expense of experimentation in your house.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Right now, I'm waiting on Rinnai to provide the results from examining the heat exchanger on my tankless. the guy that replaced it said something was definitely going on, but he followed that up with, "it COULD be a hard water problem" (his emphasis on could). He said it didn't look like anything he had seen before in previous exchangers that he worked on. That was almost 3 weeks ago. I talked to Rinnai on 10/27 and was told they would get back to me in two weeks. I called them today and left a message, so we'll see what they say.

I'll make a decision after I get the results from Rinnai. If they admit something is wrong with the heater, then I'll give Easywater more time. But I am not at a point where I want it to work so bad that I'll convince myself it is working. I'm fed up with scale flakes in my aerators, and if Easywater doesn't get rid of them, I'll send it back. If it can, then I have no problem keeping the system.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Hi Chad
Yes, your patience is Job-like.... but please allow me to re-set this a bit. I was an inorganic aqueous bench-chemist for 25 years. Easy-Water claims, pure and simple to "condition" water which means to "soften" or remove hard elements or their compounds, prinicipally salts of Mg and Ca... which corrodes copper pipes, a very soft metal, thru both build-up and possible dissoultion (corrosion)...

Simply, the unit cannot. Re-arranging or "electrolyzing" thru an induced current is meaningless as the compounds (salts) must be chelated and removed... this is what the resin-salt units perform.
I have used water softeners for years in both my home (GE) and labs for years... and in the lab, secondary units are used for "polishing" the water...

I have seen the commercials. read blogs and testimonials.... Easy Water makes claims that no self-respecting chemist would use. I am sure the unit is good for something, what that is, I cannot tell.

2 last points...
- for mgmt to fly out to check on this unit is for one reason only; you posted on a well known forum.. good for you.
- per your post, you mention you have lost little... I would respectfully disagree. I too have a large family, therefore you have lost a precious commodity; time.
best regards


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Roger,

My time spent on this "project" has been limited. I installed the initial unit (about 20 minutes), uninstalled it (about 5 minutes), called to return it, and have spoken with Bill Freije on a few occassions since. My time spent with Easywater when they came to my house was on a day when I work from home and a day when my family was not there.

Since then, I've been living my life as usual. My goal when I purchased Easywater was to protect my water heater. I've stated that numerous times. I am now at the point where I want definitive proof that the system works, or that it absolutely does not work (or at least, will not work for me). I agree that the consumer should not have to bear the burden of testing a product for a company. However, now that I have Easywater's attention, I hope that my experience can help others make an informed decision.

Which leads me to my latest development. Rinnai checked out the heater coil from my tankless heater, and they found scale. They sent the pictures of the unit to Easywater (and me). I talked to a manager at Rinnai, who confirmed for me that Easywater does a remarkable job on scale under certain conditions. When I pressed for those conditions, he would only say that he didn't know, and he didn't think Easywater knew.

When I spoke with Easywater about the results, they admitted that they aren't treating my water properly. They asked if we had seen any of the benefits that they promote on their website (softer feel to water, less detergent, less scale buildup on fixtures), to which I replied no - we haven't seen any benefits of the system. This is after three months with the new system installed - a total of 5 months with an Easywater system. They asked me to send a water sample to them, which I did yesterday. They are going to test it and determine the next steps.

And yes, I am patient with this product and the process. I've got nothing to lose here. At this point, I want folks to have enough information to make a better decision for themselves. Easywater has been very accommodating, and I have no ill will against them. I believe that they do treat water under certain conditions. What are those conditions? Do I meet them? If not, why?

I want answers, and I believe Easywater will provide them. Through that, hopefully someone else can make a better decision than I did.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I applaud your willingness to continue coming back to post on your progress or lack thereof. Thanks.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

At this point, why shouldn't I? Hopefully some folks will find it helpful.

I've gotten a LOT of email from people asking about it, and it's easier to post it here than to tell the story multiple times via email.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Prior to sending the water sample to Easywater, my contact there admitted to me that they do not do a good job of treating water with high levels of silica. Silica acts as a shield to the Easywater treatment, preventing Easywater from properly treating the water.

As mentioned earlier, I sent a water sample to them, and they did test the water. Everything was normal (meaning I have hard water - everything else was in line with what should be). I do have very high levels of silica in my water, which according to Easywater, prevented any treatment from taking place.

They have agreed to refund my money, and are sending a return label to me this week. I will be removing the system tomorrow and shipping it back later this week. I expect to receive a check sometime next week.

Let me say - I am disappointed that Easywater did not work for me. But I can say nothing negative about the company and the man that runs it. I would encourage anyone who wants to try this product to give it a shot. However, make sure you know how to measure the success or failure of the unit, and follow up with them. They are a company of integrity, and I would consider giving them another shot under different circumstances.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Chad,

Thank you for sticking with the project and following up with the results.

I think that the Silica explanation is face saving on the part of EasyWater.

I'm not inclined to be nearly as charitable as you towards the company.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Now THAT is amusing, to say the least. Silica, if it has any effect at all, should actually help. Silica tends to form colloidal particles which, when exposed to a magnetic field, will adsorb calcium and magnesium ions and hold on to them, preventing them from forming scale.

They may be very nice people, but they quite clearly have no clue about water chemistry. Why, then, would they be in a business that deals exclusively with water chemistry? A reputable water treatment company with a viable technology should be perfectly capable of testing your water and telling you specifically what the result of their technology on your water will be, predictably and repeatably. Sadly, this leads me to conclude that the Easywater folks are either a) well-intentioned idiots, or b) slick shysters. Neither sounds worthy of my hard-earned money. I hope they at least thanked you for the five-month interest-free loan you gave them.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Thanks for reporting thru conclusion. Very much appreciate it.

"Silica acts as a shield to the Easywater treatment, preventing Easywater from properly treating the water."

Do think it interesting that with all of your loooong experiment, this particular disclosure only comes now. Something they've always known but didn't test for and didn't mention to you for all these months? Gotta say I'm pretty uncomfortable with that.

Happy to learn they're standing good by their promise of refund due to dissatisfaction.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

"Do think it interesting that with all of your loooong experiment, this particular disclosure only comes now. Something they've always known but didn't test for and didn't mention to you for all these months? Gotta say I'm pretty uncomfortable with that"

DITTO and VERY unscientific.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I think Chad should post one more time. When he receives the check.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

For clarification - I will post when I receive the check. This is a process that is NOT over yet.

And the silica thing is something that, honestly, makes me scratch my head as well. I can't help but wonder why they would pay to ship a box to my house that contains a high temperature water filter and a new easywater system, fly two employees to my house, rent a car, purchase 21 gallons of vinegar, go after Rinnai to change out my water heater, and only then decide that they should test to see if something in the water is preventing treatment. If you know the situations where your product works well and the situations where it doesn't, why not check that first? Maybe they simply wanted some good press on this site. I can understand that. It would have been nice to know that up front though.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

The Easywater unit was sent back via UPS today. Hopefully they have it by the end of the week. I expect to receive the check next week sometime.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I suspect everything will come out OK in the end even though it didn't work out as you'd hoped..

Again, I thank you and commend you for your consistent follow through reporting on this forum. Personally, I had been wishing for someone like you to undertake such a thing for several years.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

To: aliceinwonderland_id, et al
RE: Fri, Jul 10, 09 at 19:53 ("Yes or No to EasyWater water")

"c1fman - I could almost believe you weren't a shill for Frieje, if you hadn't joined just to post this "real-life" story about your EasyWater. If you stick around and become a contributing member here, I will be first in line to apologize - I won't be holding my breath."

LOL.
So IF, and ONLY IF, "Clfman", wastes as much time on this blog as you & your friends do... THEN, you would believe his "real-life" story. What a curious precondition of Trust.

I'm a first time post'er, as "clfman" was... I've been in this (new) house for just over a year... and scale build-up is already bugging the hell out of me, so I decided to read up on EasyWater (as I didn't want to "lug around heavy salt bags", etc. etc... and as I know little about Softeners, and Softener-Competitor-technology... I obviously, have to trust someone, in the end... and EasyWater, for their part, have glowing testimonials everywhere... not to mention, they sponsor, and are endorsed by people I trust... so, EasyWater was a good place to start my research.)

During my searches & reading... I came across the last blog/forum ("discussion") which had reached it's limit of 150 follow-ups (referenced at top), which I guess is why it's now continuing here...

I copied/pasted your 'follow-up', Alice, because frankly, it made me want to scream obscenities.... and here's why:

ALL of the 'naysayers' in these, "discussions", immediately & adamantly, dismiss &/or insult, anyone, who says they've tried, and are happy with, an EasyWater unit....
That every one of them, are either too stupid to know what's really going on & are simply 'mistaken' about the results they see, feel, etc... or... that they're "plants", working for, in some capacity, EasyWater.

Positive 'posts', by people who've claimed to use Salt-Softeners prior to using EasyWater, and by people who've never used Salt-Softeners alike... Their word, opinions, and experiences... are somehow not trustworthy, because their view(s)/opinion(s)/etc., differ from yours & the other 'naysayers' who regularly post... but yours (the 'naysayers'), somehow ARE trustworthy, because you "contribute" regularly, and are, "expert chemists" and so on.

I find this absolutely incredible.

While it's good to be skeptical -- you've all taken it to sheer paranoia... OR... YOU, simply have a (substantial) stake in slanting these arguments... because you are in fact, the "plants", you accuse everyone else of being. The former, I find to be highly probable, considering the amount of time & effort, you all routinely give this matter, on a regular basis... almost as if it were your full-time job(s)!... because 1 of 2 things is undeniably true:
1) You're 'plants' & this is your job (bad-mouthing the competition & driving fear/doubt into the minds of potential EasyWater customers, and thus, driving them into the waiting arms of Salt-Softener companies who pay your salaries, or who you are the owner of).... OR,
2) You're sad, lonely people, who spend all their free time blogging & insulting anyone whose opinions &/or experiences differ from your own (although, admittedly, you don't even have any actual experience w/ EasyWater, you have only opinion).

Whichever is actually true (or if both are true), is obviously something that everyone will have to judge for themselves...
And I'm not just addressing 'Alice' here, but again, all the 'naysayers', who habitually & regularly post on this site, and others like it, about all things/products/etc....

To put things simply... if EasyWater was such a fraud... they'd have been sued out of existence by now, their name would be infamous the world over & known synonymously as scamming-fraudulent-tricksters (instead of having countless favorable CUSTOMER reviews, on countless non-affiliated websites, a thriving business, and so on).

I have absolutely nothing to gain by writing this...
I'm not even a customer (yet), though I WILL BE giving their product a FAIR SHOT, which is more than you will do apparently/admittedly. (and given their 90-day money-back-guarantee, plus the 5 yr warranty, I have nothing to lose by trying it, nor does anyone else, as "clfman" pointed out, before you did your usual attack.)

I frankly don't care if anyone reads this... whether anyone thinks I'm a "plant" (as you're no doubt already typing in your follow-ups)... or whether anyone tries EasyWater, other non-Salt companies, or any of the Salt-Softener companies... or any of the multitude of alternatives which exist between said companies...

I'm 31, a Christian, a Disabled-Veteran, and this is my first, and LAST post, on this website. Unlike you, I have better things to do with my time, than spend every free second of every day, typing on a stupid blog, about a product I've never owned, tried, etc. (or, about things I do own, have tried, etc.)... not to mention, I'm starting to getting looks from the wife & kids for having spent this much time typing on this stupid blog as it is!, LOL...

Trust what I've said... or don't.
Trust what these other anonymous strangers say... or don't.
....But ask yourselves, why they're SOOOO invested, & SOOOOO determined, to badmouth a product they've admittedly never tried... and why they immediately dismiss, insult/denigrate, EVERYONE who has anything good to say, who HAS tried it? (or why they do the same, to every "independent test" they're always clamoring for & insist don't exist... until someone provides links to some... which are then, "not up to their standards", curiously, LOL).

PS: For people whose 'word is gold' around here (the EasyWater 'naysayers' like 'aliceinwoderland_id', justalurker, etc. etc.)... you all often point out how intelligent & experienced in your field(s) you are... but I've never seen you offer up any actual proof, that you are who you say you are, or do, what you say you do (for a living).
...And, pardon ME, for being Skeptical... but perhaps your words would carry just a LITTLE weight, even if you still chose NOT to try the product you're badmouthing, IF, you would provide some credentials... you know... a picture of your framed Masters &/or Doctorate Degrees for example (last name blacked-out for privacy, if you wish)... a picture (in-focus, LOL) so that everything from the College's Crest & Seal, to all the nice (small) script, can be seen/read/etc... something CONCRETE like that, so everyone knows you're not some college-drop-out "plant", who types a good game &/or who is just regurgitating predetermined Salt-Company/competitor-statements; but who, in the end, is just a 25 year old Flunkie, living in their parent's basement. (as is the case with most people, who spend your inordinate amount of time, on blogs) ;-)

God bless.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

PPS: "I don't believe anybody said anything negative about Easywater, the company, or Bill... the criticism is focused on the claims for the product and the fact that they are not scientifically proven." ____ Saying their product's claims are fraudulent (misleading, flat-out-lies, etc.), is saying negative things about EasyWater, The Company, & "Bill", because you're saying (&/or inferring) they're liars, scammers, etc. ___ Even 5 year old children understand that simple truth... and people have used those exact words/phrases, including you, "justalurker", and much more. Maybe not in this particular thread started by "Chad" (as I've mostly only read Chad's posts); but it was certainly the case in the last 'thread' which I referenced earlier.....
Again, more double-speak & flat-out lies... but it's you 'naysayers' who are doing it, and for all to see.

.....Lastly, I also love how you guys talk down to everyone (whether they agree with you or not)... and if someone actually has the nerve to fire an insult back, you all rip them to shreds, saying, "you can't stand on or dispute the facts, so you resort to insults & personal attacks"... LOL.. Fellas, you can't take the moral high ground, when you're down in the mud. ;-)


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

A sleeping semi-literate has awakened with a terrible wrath and a keyboard close at hand. Nothing good happens after that.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

[insert sarcasm] I just adore rudeness prefaced with "I'm a Christian" and signed off with "God bless." [end sarcasm]

Admittedly, I have my snarky moments, but I am genuinely here to provide assistance in my area of expertise because so many others have assisted me in areas of their expertise. I don't and won't post my name and location on a forum for two reasons: 1) there are too many crazies out there and, 2) I am not here to attempt to drum up business.

Alas, 25 came and went many years ago. You are free to believe me or discount me at your leisure - no skin off my nose. Although, if you are going to use your imagination anyway, wouldn't it be ever so much more fun to picture me as green-skinned, with a wart on my nose, and riding a broom? Feel free to scream obscenities to your heart's content, and if you throw in the "B" word a couple of times I may even consider it a compliment - who knows?

As with advice from any anonymous person on the internet: read as much as you can, verify with scientific principal, use your brain, then make a decision.

Merry Christmas!


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

facepalm


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I purchased an EasyWater system in May of this year.. and had to write this letter: Dear Sir, You performed a home inspection for us at ____________ Circle. You were working for us as the buyer to look out for us with respect to the condition of the house. We trusted you as an expert in such matters and held you in high regard. My wife walked through the house with you and you pointed out how the shower fixture was partially blocked due to hard water in the house. My wife showed you the dishwasher, which was caked with something and you told her that it was like that due to the hard water in the home. We were residents of Rockville, Montgomery County, Maryland and had no experience let alone information or knowledge of what hard water is that never having been an issue and learned of its existence from you, as our home inspector. You recommended a water treatment system to solve these problems and we totally trusted you without reservation. My wife told me that we needed to purchase this thing to protect our appliances� When we had enough money we called upon you to install the system. You came over one afternoon; installed it; and I wrote you a check for almost $1,500.00. It appears that this system has had no effect in solving the hard water in the home. Our shower fixture is still clogged; the dishwasher has not cleared up and spots are left on the plates etc.; and the brand new coffee maker that my wife purchased last month is no longer working properly and the clean light stays on. The ice maker needed to be cleaned because it stopped making ice like it is supposed to and made a terrible sound.. I purchased a cleaner for like $16.00. It solved the problem but only temporarily. I paid almost $200 for an expert repairman to check the ice maker and he said that it needed to be cleaned. Otherwise, there is nothing wrong with it except that there was some lint/dog hair blocking the air flow. After that the ice maker worked for a little while (I don't know a couple weeks) and then again started making that terrible sound like it was struggling at which time there was no hair or lint build up� I cleaned it with hot water. That seemed to make it work for a few days. I finally went on the internet and learned that vinegar works instead of that expensive cleaning chemical. I cleaned it with Vinegar. It worked like a champ for two weeks and then again started making that noise like it was struggling coupled with inability to produce ice. I am sick and tired of it. The machine that you installed does not work. I opened your notebook (home inspection notebook) and found the literature that you handed to me when I handed you the check. Looked at it; It appears that the system that you installed does not treat all parts of the house. At best, according to the installation instructions it can be expected to treat only the hot water. Needless to say I am very disappointed and feel like I have been robbed; led to believe that this will solve the hard water problem in the house. You misled us; took our money; and now we demand that you refund our money and take back this machine that does not do what you told us it would do. If I do not hear from you regarding this matter within 24 hours I will file a lawsuit against you and your corporation: Negligent misrepresentation and intentional misrepresentation upon which we reasonably relied; will seek compensatory and punitive damages against you and your company; and I will consult with another attorney as to a class action law suit seeking to join other purchasers of this system from you and your company. Nobody likes to be taken advantage of. Your corporation is not liable for the intentional torts of its employees; and intentional torts are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. How dare you tell me over the telephone yesterday afternoon that there is something wrong with the ice maker without having any facts to support that conclusion. I realized that after we hung up the phone that you must have said that to defend the system that you installed. I look forward to hearing from you. This is a matter of principal for me now. I will pay for an expert to testify in court; I will pay for a commercial to air on cable television inviting all those people who purchased the machine from your company and who are not satisfied to join in the law suit. I will post the law suit all over the internet; will lodge a complaint with the BBB and with the EPA. Good day to you Sir.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

This in line with all the threads on Easy Water. Our plumber has put bunches of these things on homes in Florida and he swears by them. I took the plunge and noticed some minor changes right away. Grease comes off a fry pan with soap and COLD water, no need to use hot. Our chlorine test at near zero residual, but now I can smell it a bit (might be an unrelated matter). So maybe it impacts that.... The water is at minimal hardness, and our plumber was very careful at following the instructions EXACTLY and I do understand if you don't wrap the pipe EXACTLY as specified, it will fail. And Easy Water's reps went above and beyond to make sure we had it exact to the point of sending us new wrap at no cost to us after we discovered we have a 1-inch main, not a 1 1/4 inch as I thought.

We had two spigots outside in Florida that calcified beyond use and had to be replaced. Hence the plumber's unsolicited advice. We installed the Easy Water on a different home, not using him. So he wasn't just doing it to make a buck. He had nothing to gain. He noted several hospitals use these things.

The science is sound enough. The company has been in business long enough. They have an A+ rating with the BBB.
(see below)

So lookit. I've been on the internet since its Jurassic days, before Mozilla and Netscape became one in sanctified union. The internet has become a catch-all for professionals and other working class Americans to come to and vent their brilliance upon us all. It's amazing how many top-shelf engineers and chemists on this subject throw around words like "voodoo" and "snake-oil" and have nothing to back up their claims other than self-appointed expertise. I don't know who they are, but I do have a home in Alabama where plenty of former football coaches spend their lives on message boards pounding the rest of the football world under the shoes of the University of Alabama. These guys on this thread remind me of that. They never accomplished anything real in their lives, but they are quick on the draw to be triumphally aware of how beneath them this Easy Water system really is. Trust me, they say, I'm a self-appointed expert. None of them back up their words with anything. If Easy Water was such a hoax, do you really think it would be in business with an A+ rating at the BBB? I think these so-called internet experts would have the nuggets to contact the appropriate authorities and have Easy Water pulled off the American market. Scams are not that hard to eliminate within a 25-year-plus timeframe.

I trust the American free market to a certain point. Easy Water wouldn't still be around if it was a scam. There are loads of water softening companies out there including big names like Culligan. None of them have run Easy Water out of business through stealth slander on message boards or through actual hard work and better product. So I don't have any problem giving this company a couple thousand clams to see if my plumber in Florida is right. He loves it, maybe I will to. I've spent more on floozies at.... well, that's another Tampa story.... Anyway, I don't have a chemical engineering degree with 10+ years of experience or insider knowledge on the components of water turbines, but I do have some common freaking sense. Hope you do too.

Here is a link that might be useful: BBB Rating of Freije Easy Water in their home base


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Good to meet you, Blanket. Hopefully you'll stick around and become a contributing member.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

To all concerned,
Has anyone read the article by Timothy Keister? Non Chemical Devices: Thirty Years of Myth Busting. Published in Water Conditioning & Purification April 2008. It's still true today 12/11/12


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

I looked up the source you referenced and read the article. I'll go a step further and post the link for others to read it.

Keister is a perfect example of what I referred to in the earlier post. Someone who rose to a section head position for a wastewater company who topped out, went on his own and formed a consultancy and now promotes whatever he's paid to promote. He's promoting the view that the good ol' salt systems are better than the newer tried and tested no-salt systems.

Despite his claimed credentials -- which may or may not be true just as people suggest the no-salt credentials may or may not be true -- Keister has been badmouthing no-salt systems since 1974 when they were brand new. You might ask "why" was he doing that in 1974 before they even had a 30+ year track record.

You might also ask, "If he's so right, why hasn't he done something about the false claims," or "If he's accurate, why haven't authorities shut down the no-salt system sales as frauds." Neither of the questions can be answered. So you ask "why" and the obvious answer is the no-salt systems actually do work and these kinds of paid-advertorial slam pieces are a marketing strategy of the salt systems side of the equation.

You couldn't have provided a better example of a slander piece wrapped in scientific rambling. Keister has ONE article out there. Not many. None of them affected any change. Reasonably, they can be ignored as ineffective and inaccurate. The point stands, if the Easy Water didn't work, the company wouldn't have a A+ BBB rating and it would have by now been nailed by the millions of attorneys out there looking for just such a target.

One thing about the science that should be obvious. we are talking about nanotechnology here. A 1-foot wrap of electrified wire will impact billions of molecules ever millisecond. It would be the equivalent of thousands of feet of physical filtration. From a common sense view, that seems adequate for most homes. Why do so many hospitals use these things?

It should be obvious that no company is going to have a stellar BBB rating and so few complaints after 25 years in business. As I've had my Easy Water installed for a couple weeks now, I've noticed the screens on the faucets are running cleaner, the minerals have dissolved. I need less soap in the washing mashing and my clothes feel softer, especially white clothes. My toilet and bathroom basin and tub are not collecting lime scale like they were. Hello. I don't care what someone's degree is in folks or what they claim as credentials or what they write for whomever they write it for, if Easy Water does that, it does what I bought it for! If it lasts, money well spent.

Here's the link to the Keister article. I'd suggest Keister either back up his claims with actions or shove his words back up his own keister. Should be a slam-dunk lawsuit if his claims are true. Class action to boot. Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Keister's uneffectual claim (ie. hasn't resulted in any changes)


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Easy Water wouldn't still be around if it was a scam.

The point stands, if the Easy Water didn't work, the company wouldn't have a A+ BBB rating and it would have by now been nailed by the millions of attorneys out there looking for just such a target.

.

This is a logical fallacy which I can address with two words: Male Enhancement. According to your argument, the products would no longer be sold, yet they have been around for hundreds of years.

The burden of proof of efficacy should reside solely with the manufacturer and should not be placed on consumers. Mr Keister is one of very few that has performed objective testing on alternative water treatment devices. The testing he performed SHOULD have been done by the companies selling the equipment. All reputable water treatment companies perform extensive, on-going testing of the treatments they sell as well as experimental treatments. This type of testing is sorely lacking from easywater.


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

OMG I'm so tired after all that. Just kidding and greetings, I signed up here, to add my two cents.

====

Hey good people, I started early this a.m. and like others can't believe I read the whole thing. Okay, true, I didn't read *all* all the words....

Really appreciate the indefatigable Chad ! and the digs-deeper Tina Noyes -- thank you thank you!

My husband had already spent the time to try to research, but because of the $$ involved, then I was the spot-checker trying to sort out the many claims. I was good enough at science but still, anyone can say "it works like this", and I wouldn't know enough to pick it apart, or not that much....

We built our rural home five years ago. We'd previously had slightly hard water at our former home of many years, and once did have a water tank issue. But we had a water softener at the place we rented while building here, and hated it. Hated the slimy feel while showering; never felt like you got your hair clean. Really disliked the whole iron-out business and just the ongoing cost and chemicals.

And we believe we are seeking long term solutions and infrastructure, as in, our squash in our northern climate are surviving till May in the cold room, and hopefully this summer the root cellar gets built, that sort of thing. So we were willing to put the money into a system if we could improve the hard water.

This water is harder than what we had at our former home; we just got in under the warranty deadline for a repair on our washing machine -- the incoming line was clogged. We always put lots of vinegar in the dishwasher rinse cycle. Don't know the 'grains' in our water, but we have calcium moreso than iron, from the test early on. We judge it to not be super hard.

I just wanted to share what I'd dug up whilst following other leads and links, some here, some elsewhere.

The Scalewatcher Enigma fares well at http://www.bdonline.co.uk/100-best-products-(m-z)/3044142.article but you can't get there with the link -- you have to google 100 Best Products M-Z bdonline. So I save you the trouble, here's what they say:

====

Scalewatcher ENiGMA by ETC

X-factor Kills limescale and saves energy.
Joint winner of this year’s 100% Detail/RIBA Journal Innovation Award, Scalewatcher cuts energy bills by getting rid of limescale in water pipes. Just wind it around the pipes and hook it up to the electricity.

King’s School Canterbury, in one of the hardest water areas in the UK, saved 58% on energy costs in one boarding house within two months ��" the boiler can heat up water faster, and valves are less likely to need replacing.

Scalewatcher uses resonance to create a crystal formation that remains in suspension in the water, so scale ends up down the drain rather than clogging pipes. The water stays drinkable and the risk of Legionnaire’s disease is reduced as there is no scale for bacteria to feed on. It can be used in pipes up to a metre in diameter.

A recent test by Cranfield University put it at 36% more effective at preventing scaling than its closest rival. A similar system for waste water treatment is under development.

=======

My husband had been inclined toward one of the Scalewatcher (Aquagenesis) models but since "Enigma" isn't one (with or without the tricky capitals) we'll have to check further re that. The actual reference in the article (Cranfield) isn't quite that simple but the last paragraph in that research report is favorable.

Also there's this:

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/not-big-but-very-clever/3042553.article

(same thing as to access, you must google it instead) -- same product, winner of an award.

Also: http://www.ecobuild.co.uk/var/uploads/exhibitor/4133/ux6jvnqo8w.pdf (same award, diff. article) -- and apparently if you go searching Jack Pringle *is* president of Royal Institute of British Architects. Hard water is said to affect 60% of British households so it's a big deal there.

I think I read here somewhere that various jurisdictions are "banning" water softeners, and I think many of you are aware of the many problems of water in many places not least being overall desertification. My husband's family is in Los Angeles, and we have travelled quite a bit in the SW where we think there will be further aquifer problems and that sort of thing -- so the search for non-saline solutions (pun accidental!) is very real, and not only to do with avoiding the hassle and cost as to appliance repair and replacement.

We believe we live in Paradise, but in the words of Gilda Radner, "It's always something."

Thanks folks,
Linda


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Some informative information and a link to a company that, to me, is impressive.

http://www.nelsonenvironmentaltechnologies.com/ACTWTechnicalpaper.html#Need For a Total-Chlorine-Exclusive-Indicator-Field-Test Kit For The Hemodialysis Market

http://www.superiorwaterconditioners.com/


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RE: Chad's post -- EasyWater by Freije

Thanks for the article, yorkie_gal. It addresses quite nicely the need for analysis and controlled water conditions.


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