Hi Kate,

Both the Culligan and Kinetico are ion exchange water softeners but then they differ...

With your water there's no question in my mind that the Kinetico is a wiser choice.

First, it is a twin resin tank softener. That means you have soft water 24/7 withour interruption. Second , the Kinetico is a "upflow" regenerating softener which provides more thorough and efficent regeneration of the resin. With your hardness and iron a Kinetico with proper routine maintenance should go 15-20 years before it requires service or repair.

Kineticos cost more but amortized over their 20 year life they are a wise investment. And, when those 20 years or so are up you call the local Kinetico dealer and they'll come rebuild the control and replace the resin and you go another 20 years.

Kinetico has built up a large and loyal customer base. The people who criticize Kinetico are the ones who have to sell against them.

In case you want an opinion from someone with no vested interest in a particular brand (I do not sell any form of water treatment equipment, but previously spent many years as a water treatment engineer at an industrial facility) - you may want to look at more options. I do agree that Kinetico makes a fine product, but their much higher cost can be prohibitive for many home owners. What you get for the extra couple of thousand $ is 24/7 soft water and a non-electronic control system. Do you typically need 24/7 soft water? Probably not. We're talking about 2-3 hours, in the middle of the night, every few days for a normal household. Generally not a big deal. The control system is nice, but Kinetico is less willing than most to share information about programming and repair with consumers. They require a costly service call.

If reliability over many years is your only priority, you may want a Kinetico. However, amortized over 20 years, you will likely find that the additional benefit of the Kinetico is outweighed by the up-front cost. There are many very reliable units with Fleck controls that run with zero problems for 15-20 years at half the cost. Your best option will just depend on where your priorities lie. Remember, ANY softener will fail if not given proper maintenance by the homeowner on a regular basis.

I found, at least in my area, that water treatment "professionals" know a lot about how to sell equipment and very little about water chemistry and the fundamental operation of softeners. Of course, there are exceptions, but most get minimal education about the basics and will fall back on trying to sell the unit that makes them the most $, not necessarily the unit that best meets your needs. Since your water softening happiness will depend so much on the sales rep, your best strategy may be to talk to your neighbors about who they use and their level of confidence in the equipment and rep. Do they have any signs of hard water build-up? Do they get service quickly when they need it? Don't get too hung up on a specific brand (and always ask those giving advice if they have any affiliation with the brand they are touting).

Just to keep everything on the up and up... "In case you want an opinion from someone with no vested interest in a particular brand (I do not sell any form of water treatment equipment".

I have no vested interest in a particular brand and I do not sell any form of water treatment equipment.

Kate asked about Kinetico and that is what I directed my post to.

It's easy to search this forum and see very few posts regarding Kinetico and most of those posts are glowing recomendations from long time Kinetico owners.

As far as "their much higher cost can be prohibitive", around here Kinetico is priced competetively with Culligan, Rayne, Rainsoft, and Eco.

There are multitudes of options available to anyone shopping for water treatment equipment, some good, some less good, and some very bad.

For the greater percentage of water treatment customers who just want soft water and don't want to learn how to fix softeners... with real estate it's location, location, location, and with water treatment it's DEALER, DEALER, DEALER.

Thanks for the replies! I have been searching past posts all over the web looking for info. :) You guys are familiar faces.

I cannot seem to find any local info on how to get a Fleck or a Clack unit. Is that something I could call a plumber for? I know I can order them online, but I do want a twin tank system and I would like it installed by someone who can also advise on and install a whole house filter, should we decide to move forward with one. That's why we were primarily looking at dealers. My husband is in commercial construction, and isn't afraid of DIY at all, but the water is just soooooo bad here that we feel a dealer familiar with the area is probably the way to go.

The Culligan unit, since it was the "problem water" unit was very well built and had a great warranty. But, yeah, it was nearly $2000 with no filter. He said they have 30-some units of all price ranges, but for our area, the "problem water" one is the only choice.

I'm interested to see what the Kinetico guy says as I assumed they'd be more expensive. Both do a lot of installs around here, and are very familiar with the bad water situation.

Our neighbors have Kinetico and they made it sound like they only spent around $2000 AND they got a filter. I assumed Culligan would be cheaper, but I guess we'll see.

Kinetico's 24/7 aspect is nice, but probably won't really be a factor in our situation. No one works night shift or anything here. Both are twin tanks. Kinetico's lack of electronics are nice, but the Culligan man said he's not seen problems with their electronics. And, that since its a twin tank system, it is situated above the tank that is less likely to cause problems from vapor or whatnot.

The engineer in me sees the "beauty" of the Kinetico though.

Can someone explain the benefits of the "upflow" regeneration?

The advantage of the twin resin tank softener is that it regenerates exactly when one tank is depleted and switches service over to the other tank which is more efficent water and salt (potassium, if you choose) use.

Also, The Kinetico regenerates the resin AND makes the brine with softened water which makes the resin last longer. In high hardness and iron water conditions I don't like the idea of regenerating the resin with the untreated water, kinda like washing clothes with dirty water if that makes sense, but that's just my opinion.

Since your neighbors have Kineticos, and are on the same water as you, ask them lots of questions. Ask about the Kinetico dealer, good service after the sale?

As far as local indpeendent water treatment pros, look to the Yellow Pages, usually under "water treatment".

Upflow or countercurrent regeneration, regenerates the resin in the opposite direction of the water service providing a more thorough regeneration, more complete rinse, and longer resin life. You can Google "upflow regeneration" or countercurrent regeneration" to satisfy your engineering curiosity with way more info than you'll ever care to read.

Thanks much.

I post back after we talk to the Kinetico man.

"way more info than you'll ever care to read" is about right. I had no idea going into this that water softening was such a huge issue!

24 grains is up there. I'd keep this local...with folks who have plenty of experience dealing with what you have there. Water is pretty basic. I wouldn't scrimp. You'll curse while writing the check but you'll enjoy the benefits every day.

FWIW...I've had Kinetico at two locations for 15 years. Just refurbished both. Zero trouble along the way.

You're on the right track, but you may want to consider other local dealers. Unless you live in a small town, there should be other dealers around besides Culligan and Kinetico. Check around, look in your yellow pages, do an online search, etc. I've not personally been very impressed with the "Culligan man" but your area may be different. Ask about qualifications: How did the rep learn about water treatment? How much training did he receive on the equipment? How much water chemistry training (this is the area sorely lacking in most)? How quickly will they be there in the event of a problem? Will you be dealing with the same person when you have a problem or will you have to call some corporate office? Whatever you look at, however, DO NOT even consider any softener that mixes carbon with the resin. These are bad systems for a whole host of reasons that have been listed in great detail in other threads.

Well, the Kinetico guy was here.

Their system is impressive. He was very well qualified (Certified Water Specialist VI by the National Water Quality Association) and not at all pushy. He outlined the differences, poked a few holes in the "lifetime warranty" from Culligan, and highlighted how Kinetico's were different. (Including the RO and the dechlorinator systems.) He gave his schpeel and said this is that last we'd hear from him. He won't be calling back bugging us, which is very nice, actually!

The Culligan Man said we'd need to use the problem water unit, which was naturally the most expensive of the many they offer. The Kinetico Man said we'd be well-served by their 2nd *least* expensive unit. He could go with the least expensive, but would benefit from moving up one model in regards to the iron level here.

Their warranty was only 7 years, but it covers every single part on the thing AND labor for that time. Culligan excludes many, many parts - leaving very little that is "lifetime warrantied".

I also liked Kinetico's RO and dechlorinator systems, should we decide to go with those items.

So, given that the Culligan was only a hair cheaper than Kinetico, it's off the list.

We'll next look into a Fleck or a Clack unit. If money were no object, we'd have the Kinetico on order though!

FWIW, I don't know if Kinetico trains that into them or what. 15 years ago when I bought my units my experience was similar. The guy that came had certifications higher than anyone else I talked to. Gave his schpeel. Thanked me for my time and consideration and promised that he WOULDN'T call back.

Oh, I'm sure it is part of their schpeel not to call back. But, as I WAS actually dreading that part of it, I appreciated hearing that. ;)

re: the water certification, I'm not sure what it really means, other than he did jump through the hoops to get there. He did "talk the talk" with my husband who got some very pointed questions to ask from a major metro water utility chemist, who is a friend of a friend. He's not in our water district. This acquaintance has a top notch RO and softener. Said he wouldn't dare drink the water from where he works without them!

What water certification means is that he/she understands what they are talking about and that they are not just sales parrots.

You'll find that the Kinetico installation people and service people are every bit as competent.

Those are some of the reasons that Kinetico has built up great owner loyalty. You pay more but you get more.

As far as Clack or Fleck... Clack does not make a control valve for a twin resin tank softener so comparing to a Kinetico is apple to orange. If you're considering a single resin tank softener then Fleck offers the 5600SE, 2510SE, and 7000. All nice valves. The 5600 and 2510 have been in the field for decades. Parts lists and tech info is available for free download.

Fleck offers the 9000/9100 series control valves for twin resin tank softeners. It is electrically powered and a little annoying to program but not real hard. Once it is programmed you pretty much leave it alone. I like putting electrically powered softeners on a small (350va or larger) computer UPS to protect from power surges, spikes, and broewn outs. On sale around $30 or so at the local computer discounters and cheap insurance.

So, how do I find a Fleck valve unit? I can't find anyone locally.... Are they something I need to order online? My husband is in construction (concrete), and is DIY-handy when he wants to be, but has very little interest in installing a water softener on his own! So, I'd have to find a plumber to install it, unless my husband got motivated for the task. But, there are many other "new to us" house projects he's more interested in at the moment. ;)

Kate,

To buy a Fleck based softener locally you need to find a water treatment pro. Look to the Yellow Pages, usually under "water treatment".

If you had email turned on in your profile I could recommend a good place to shop if you want to DIY but it's bad form to discuss that on the forum.

One thing that all have left out is that Kinetico units have a laborious amount of moving parts that even their own people don't like working on.

They are maintenance heavy units, and even hard to put into manual regeneration, which requires using a tool, vs. the Culligan units, which have user-friendly controls.

And good luck getting someone to come out and service your unit in timely fashio once you have problems! If they come at all..

At least Culligan does seem to have their own people trained to work on the units. And I've experienced good response time with them coming out to service a non-Culligan softener..

The Kinetico concept seems kind of antiquated to me. Who doesn't want an appliance of any kind that doesn't run on some kind of electricity??

And how much do you really save by not having power?? A couple bucks a year maybe..

Hi Kate and the rest go gave their comments,

I am in a situation right now to choose between culligan and kinetico (clearwater). Kate, what did u get anyway, is it worth it? Thanks.

hello

Need to know system for 6500 square foot home.

Trying to compare

Rainsoft v/s kinetico V/s Culligan v/s NuovoH20

Thanks for brief but to the point input.

I'm now in the situation of deciding between Culligan & Kinetico. Culligan is offering me a free reverse osmosis after learning from me that the reason that I don't like RO is that the water is all acidic because they take out the minerals. I had acid reflux and for the last 7 years drinking the RO water my acid reflux got worst. Hence, I told Culligan that I'll get Alkavida instead because, with their whole house system, they are giving their RO with alkaline for free. However, my research shows that their softener and carbon are not NSF/ANSI or WQA certified. However their RO is. Hence, Culligan offered me a free RO. Although I won't be able to drink water from any RO, they said that I can use clean water for cooking and ice in the refrigerator which I think is right. It's either I will buy the Alkavida RO with alkaline which is very expensive or just go for the free RO from Culligan and get the bottled alkaline water for drinking. Can anyone please give me your comments/input. Culligan with free RO or Kinetico without RO. Thank you.

Hi Cely Romero

So it would be good if you would start your own thread instead of tagging on the end of a 10 year old thread.

There's a ton of information on here about water softeners already - and the information hasn't changed much. Read through some of it then post your specific questions on a new thread and we will try to help you.

Hey chasmw_aol_com any chance this comment holds up 10 years later?

Just read “chasmw” response. He answers all the concerns. I have had Kinetico for 15 years with no issues and did deep research before purchasing. No need to over think this, just go with the best...Kinetico. Also installed under kitchen sink water purifier by Kinetico drinking water is delicious.

So, Alice has the right answer:

Kinnetico differentiates itself in ways that don't matter.

Twin tanks - so you have continuous soft water vs not having soft water once every 10 days at 3AM.

Not using electricity - about 2 buck a year.

Using soft water to backwash - ummm, ok... No, it's not like "washing your clothes in dirty water" - but the imagery is intentionally effective and misleading. Keep in mind that shortly after regeneration the resin will have unsoftened water going through it. Not to mention the water that my softener uses to backwash is exactly the same source as my drinking water. If it's fine to drink, it's fine to backwash the resin.

None of that nonsense matters one bit.

.

Kinnetico is overpriced for the hardware and for the service - and you will never make up that difference in a longer service life. Not ever.

My $600 Fleck based unit with 10% crosslinked resin takes my 21 grain per gallon water and softens it to less than 1 grain - as measured with my Hach test kit. That's ALL I need it to do.

None of the other stuff matters. The $2,000 Kinnetico will not make your water "more soft".

The resin on my standard water softener will last 12-15 years before it needs to be re-bedded and the Fleck 5600sxt valve is one of the most dependable on the market - as well as being very common. Rebuild kits are readily available for $50. The entire valve is $200-250.

After 15 years I could even replace the ENTIRE unit (wasteful, but I could) and then do it again in another 15 years and still not cost what the Kinnetico costs.

Bottom Line: A very reliable, very serviceable and long-lasting water softer can be purchased that will soften your water for 1/3 - 1/2 the cost of the Kinnetico.

Jake is exactly right. Kinetico, Culligan, EcoWater, Rainsoft, etc. are a complete rip-off. It's a scam! The technology is decades old. It's simply resin beads in a tank with a controller that directs the direction of the water. One brand doesn't soften water better than another. In fact, the resin (which does the softening) probably comes from the same factory in China. It's simply rebranded.

Buy a $600 brand that has good reviews and it will produce the same quality of soft water as the one that costs $5k. Then, have a local plumber install it. It's really that simple.

And, if you are thinking about carbon filters before the water softener, it's not necessary if you use city water. (You might want to get it if you're using well water.) Instead, get a reverse-osmosis water filter for your kitchen sink for about $200.

Good luck!

@Jake The Wonderdog @ZZZZ Service which units do you recommend (I'm building a home, have very hard water on a brand new well (218 mg CaCO3 /L).

cheers

David

@Redcoat Dave

I ordered mine off Amazon.

Do the math to get the right size. And there are various vendors - the point is a Fleck control valve and avoid the over-priced hype

Kinetico and Culligan both provide high-quality products with great warranties. However, Kinetico’s electricity-free kinetic process will save you money, whereas Culligan will increase your electric bill. Kinetico users also praise its low-maintenance, longevity, and overall efficiency.

Yes, Culligan water is purified. Culligan uses a reverse osmosis process to purify its water.

Some of Kinetico’s systems use reverse osmosis to reduce contaminants in the water. However, not all of Kinetico’s products employ reverse osmosis.

Others may disagree though.

@HU-608011519 "However, Kinetico’s electricity-free kinetic process will save you money, whereas Culligan will increase your electric bill. Kinetico users also praise its low-maintenance, longevity, and overall efficiency."

This is absolute BS!

I used a "kill-a-watt" meter to determine that my standard Fleck water softener used about $1.20 a year in electricity. Now, your mileage may vary, as they say, but even if it was $5 in electricity per year the cost would be negligible. My Fleck based water softener cost about $600 from Amazon. Six years later it's still doing great.

There is no "efficiency" benefit to a Kinetico water softener. There's no "longevity" benefit that makes any sense either. Kinetico softeners are stupid expensive to buy, and stupid expensive to maintain and there's no benefit on the "positive" side of the ledger that ever makes up for that.

this was a bery interesting and informative read especially since it began over 8 years ago and just watching it evolve. I’m currently looking into a water treatment system, but i think i first need to get a new water heater.

I live in a condo built in 1984. Second floor. The area for my water heater is about 24” x 24” directly next to my dryer and washer tucked into the outside patio closet. I know my water heater is electric but I’ve never been able to find a dedicated outlet. Perhaps hard wired some how—I won’t pretend to know. It is a regular old school tank heater that you would usually find in a basement rather than a closet, but it gets the job done.

But i have problems finding a dryer vent hose narrow enough to fit between the wall and the heater to reach its disignated hole in the wall, so i know i dont bave room for any type of water treatment system.

then I heard about tankless heaters and hie small they are which makes me think i might be able to fit one in with some water treatment tanks .

There is no outlet for any type of electric water softening option though.

Therefore, based on the information in this thread, the only plausible option for my situation is Kinetico.

No one gets a prize for this stupid setup, but It’s life.

My question is, if I decide to get a tankless water heater, will it work with a kinetico system? Does anyone have any experience with these two systems working together?

Any suggestions?

An electric tankless water heater is not a direct one-to-one replacement for a tank heater. You didn't state the number of people in your household, how many bathrooms, the number of simultaneous hot water tasks that may occur, or your location. Tankless is sized according to the heating capacity (temperature rise) needed based on 1) the lowest (winter) seasonal incoming cold tap water temperature and 2) the gallons-per-minute output flow needed to handle the maximum number of hot water tasks that may occur at the desired hot water temperature. An electric tankless of sufficient capacity will require an upgrade on the water heater electric circuit. You can expect that a 100 amp to 120 amp circuit is required just for the water heater. Your entire condo (just your unit, not the whole building) may have a 100 amp electric service and not be able to support an electric tankless water heater without upgrading it. Those factors must first be investigated.

@dadoes Lucky The condo is equipped with its own circuit breaker, and there is a dedicated 30amp 125VAC switch for the water heater. We also live on second floor, and heat definitely rises lol. We do use several sources of water though at the same time frequently. The condo has two bathrooms, but its just my husband and I, so we don’t ever use the second bathroom except for the sink. So all together three total sinks including the kitchen are in use, one bath, one toilet, dishwasher, and washing machine. There are definitely times when the washing machine will be used for several days in a row when washing clothes and towels, but we usually use cold/warm water for clothes and only use hot for sheets and towels. During the summer time we never run out of hot water with our current heater—we have a problem getting cold water. The only time hot water runs out is in the winter time, when we take showers. Our current heater has a wait time of about an hour for another hour of hot water use in the winter. Our coldest nights here are 50 degrees but it’s only for 3 month out of the year.

@Watching Time

You should have started your own thread.

You aren't going to operate a whole house tankless water heater on a 30 amp, 240 v circuit - which is what I suspect that you have. Tankless water heaters need a LOT of energy to heat water. Let's talk math:

Some assumptions:

-Inlet water temp 55 degrees F

-Outlet water temp 105 F

-Total temp rise of water is 50 degrees F

-Needed output 5 gallons per minute (two showers running at the same time)

1 BTU = 1 pound of water raised 1 degree F

Water weighs 8.35 pounds per gallon

Total BTU to raise 5 gallons of water 50 degrees = 2087.5 BTU

1 Watt = 3.412 BTU / hour

611 Watts to raise 5 gallon of water 50 degrees in an hour or 36,709 watts to do that in a minute.

36709 watts / 240 volts = 153 amps @ 240 volts is what it would require to heat 5 gpm 50 degrees.

Looked at another way:

You have a 30 amp circuit and max 24 amp load (only allowed 80% of circuit rating).

24 amps x 240 volts = 5760 watts = 19,653 BTU/hour max potential

= 47 gal of water heated 50 degrees in 1 hour or 0.785 gallon a minute.

That's not enough for 1 bathroom sink faucet (1 - 1.5 gpm).

Simpler terms of what Jake says above ...

A 30 amp 125 volt circuit (if that's really what you have) on your current water heater can provide 3,750 watts, figure 3,000 sustained continuous wattage available per the 80% rule. If it's (probably) really a 30 amp 240 volt circuit then the capacity is 7,200, or 5,700 continuous watts available.

36,709 watts (yes, thirty-six thousand seven hundred watts) is required for the tankless water heater per Jake's calculations to instantaneously raise the temperature of 55°F incoming water to 105°F for 2.5 gals per minute flow on each of two simultaneous showers. That's a 192 amp (say 200 amp) 240 volt circuit per the 80% rule. Just. For. The. Water. Heater.

You may not need quite that much heating capacity in real usage (if you run the showers at lower flow), or you may need more capacity for higher temperatures on multiple tasks or lower than 55°F incoming water supply ... but either way it's still much more power than you're apparently understanding, so, no, your existing electric circuit to your tank water heater cannot support a tankless unit of sufficient heating capacity. My electric tankless on a 120 amp 240 volt circuit has been fine for 17+ years but I'm a one-person household, run my shower lower than 2 GPM by habit, and rarely run shower and/or dishwasher and/or clothes washing at the same time.

Whether you can upgrade that circuit to support a tankless water heater depends on the details of the total available power supply to your condo, and space in the existing breaker box, and your budget.

@Jake The Wonderdog @dadoes Your right it is 240. I forgot to mention it’s a dual switch. I knew the tankless heaters could potentially pull a lot of power. I think I was just being hopeful. I’m not the least bit surprised by your answers. I’m 90% certain the condo was built by carnies because this place is a fun house. Even the smallest Updates require some sort of custom fabrication, which requires approval from the HOA, which also requires us to hire contractors and Arizona doesn’t have the best reputation for admirable contractors-regardless of their field. Oh well, I know I’ll figure something out. Lol. I appreciate both of your responses and input. I’ll be sure to start a thread next time. Thank you.