Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
danielj_2009

Water Softeners - Kinetico/Fleck Questions

danielj_2009
14 years ago

Hi. I've perused the numerous water softener posts already and was hoping someone would offer some feedback on my situation. Here's where I'm at:

- Would prefer dual tank for continuous service,

- Space is not an issue,

- The house has been rebuilt, but we've lived there for many years (without softener). (There was a softener originally but it died before we bought the house)

- Water is city water from an aquifer, not surface. Hardness is high, est. 150 ppm, TDS, iron are low. Bedrock filters out most of the junk so chlorine levels are kept low.

I used to operate and maintain commercial sized water softeners and deionization units, so I know the chemistry/mechanics well. I just don't know the various residential brands or issues particular to the home.

I had Kinetico come out and quoted me $1895 for the 2030s without install (but they will set the unit up for the plumber). I have a plumber doing other work, so he'll do the install as well - Kinetico or Fleck either way.

On the other hand, I look up Fleck 9000 online, which seems to go for under $1000. It looks like the Fleck is a higher capacity system (24,000grains vs 7800+grains), but that doesn't matter as much to me as the flow rate, which looks to be comparable at 9 or 10 gpm at just 15 psi. The Kinetico shows about 16 gpm at 30 psi, which is great, but I don't have a comparable for the Fleck. I would think it would be comparable.

I say the capacity doesn't matter because there are only 3 people in the house, so I think the smaller Kinetico capacity would be fine. The Fleck might even be too much capacity if that is possible in home applications. I also note that the Fleck specs 24,000 grain capacity with .75 cubic feet of resin, while the Kinetico is 7800 grains with just under .50 cubic feet. Why such a large difference? What am I missing?

What are opinions out there? Do they both use salt efficiently? Can either unit be operated with KCl if I decide to try that? Is Kinetico really worth twice the price, or are they padding? What do you think?

Thanks!

Comments (34)

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The basic chemistry for both the Kinetico and Fleck is the same. The physics may differ slightly as, IIRC, the Kinetico is a countercurrent (upflow) design and the Fleck 9xxx series control valve is co-current (downflow). Kinetico designs tend to be very salt or KCL efficient.

    A Fleck 9xxx based softener can be ordered to the same capacity per resin tank as the Kinetico so that's a tie. When both the Fleck and Kinetico having the same size resin tanks and the same volume of resin in each tank the SFR should be the same (or close). If that model Kinetico uses a packed resin bed then the SFR will be lower. Kinetico offers OD (overdrive) versions in some models that increases SFR.

    Both the Kinetico and Fleck 9xxx regenerate "on demand" as required and that's where having soft water 24/7 comes in.

    Big difference... the Kinetico is non-electric. It requires NO ELECTRICITY to run or regenerate. IMO, that's a plus and lends the Kinetico to some interesting installation abilities. Water pressure powers the Kinetico regeneration same as the Hoover Dam. If your water pressure fails then not having soft water is academic and the least of your problems.

    The Fleck 9xxx requires electricity to regenerate. Might matter to you and might not. One more thing to fail or it might not.

    Kinetico parts and service is only available from Kinetico dealers. Can be a negative if your dealer is a goofball but Kinetico softeners have built up a large and loyal customer base and are the least complained about brand on the net. Kinetico owners post reporting decades of reliable service from their Kineticos and then have them rebuilt and keep on softening.

    Fleck based softeners are available from local water treatment professionals and long distance mail order softener sellers, both good and bad. Fleck based units are less expensive and parts are available everywhere. When you need service you can do-it-yourself or screw-it-yourself depending on your capabilities.

    As far as installation, I'd have the softener dealer do the install and setup. With respect to your plumber, he can leave a softener loop for the installer but plumbers really don't know and don't care about water treatment unless they can make an easy buck. Best to let the water treatment pro do the install and then there's no question, or blame, if there is a problem later.

    If you buy a softener over the net you get no service and you're on your own so you can handle the install how ever you want but the bitterness of no service lingers long after the sweetness of low price is gone.

    With real estate it's location, location, location and with water treatment it's dealer, dealer, dealer,

  • andy_c
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Softeners ratings measured in grains are considered according to salt dosage. Most softeners rate their removal to 15lb of salt.

    Kinetico's ratings that you gave were to 1.8 lbs of salt. This makes it very efficient. You could calculate more grain removed by increasing salt dosage.

    The Kinetico is more efficient than the the Fleck due to counter-current regeneration. Other features lead it to be a better unit including warranty, which is not only twice as long but comprehensive on all parts including the resin.

    Andy Christensen, CWS-II

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So it seems you guys lean toward Kinetico. I wasn't aware that the Fleck wasn't counter-current regen. Andy - could you give me a quick recap on the ratings? Will say a 24,000 grain unit remove that many grains between regenerations, or it is some other standard measure? You mention 15 lbs of salt. Is this a typical amount of brine for regenerating one of these units or just a standard? If I take Kinetico's 7800g/1.8lb salt and multiply by 15 lbs I get 65,000g, whereas the Fleck was only 24,000g. Is this why you say the Kinetico is much more efficient? I'm zeroing in on this because I'm wondering how much salt I might save, if any, with Kinetico. I'm paying about $900 more for it and that's a lot of salt, but if it pays back a little and saves my back from lifting one more bag of salt, it would be good to know.

    The Kinetico rep did seem to know his stuff. I didn't let on that I was familiar with the technology and he really didn't say anything egregious.

    Thanks!

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OK, so I'm back to the softener debate after getting sidetracked with bathroom tiles and fireplaces.

    I might have to contact Kinetico on this question, but one other possible difference I see between the Kinetico and Fleck is the distribution plate in the bottom of the tank. Fleck advertises their "Vortex" plate which is supposed to provide better flow rate and distribution of water compared to their regular plate. I have to call a Fleck distributor, but it appears that the Vortex equipped tank is over $500 if purchased alone (I guess). With a twin tank system I'm not sure if they are upcharging for this Vortex thing or if it is included. That could help explain the large difference in cost compared to the Kinetico. I don't know how Kinetico's distribution compares to the Vortex.

    Also, I like the idea of having the most effiecient use of salt with countercurrent regen and all, but I can't see that justifying the $1000 difference. I mean, if I were toting salt bags 1x per month instead of 3x then I'd say there's some value to the more efficient Kinetico. Otherwise, $1000 is a lot of salt and I have to think the water quality will be equal between the two.

    Oh, does anyone know anything about Fleck's Mediaguard KDF55? It is supposed to remove chlorine and heavy metals and appears to be internal to the tank (?) Any comments on that?

    Thanks!

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Some things to bear in mind during your research...

    When you speak of FLECK you are dressing the control valve and that is all. The FLECK based softener you are referring to is an assortment of components (from different manufacturers) that an assembly company (independent of FLECK) has chosen to package together for sale. Regardless of where you purchase it it is a no brand softener.

    When you speak of Kinetico you are referring to a softener system designed by one vertical company to address specific water treatment issues.

    Mediaguard KDF55 is not a FLECK product but rather an accessory that can be useful in some applications, if required, but has it's own caveats.

    When considering relative cost be sure to spread that cost over the service life of the product and consider the maintenance costs and length of the warranty.

    Aside from the salt savings of one softener over another, and over a decade that might add up to more than you think, there will be savings on electricity and warranty service if required for a longer time period with one brand over the no brand softener.

    Keep doing your homework and you'll make an informed decision.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The Fleck twin tank supplier is recommending a 10% crosslinked resin rather than the usual 8%. They claim that this will cut my salt usage in half, from about 60 lb/mo to 30 lb/mo. The subject came up because they offer a better distribution plate called Vortex. However, in comparing how much salt I'll save in upgrading to the Vortex, they actually recommended not to get the Vortex and spend that money on the better resin. There's a lot more salt savings from the resin upgrade than from getting the Vortex. Does this 8% vs 10% comparison sound right?

    Also, I don't like RO for drinking water, and they recommend a two stage system -- the first canister is KDF55 material which is supposed to remove heavy metals, and then a carbon cartridge. The unit is good for 75,000 gal, which is about a lifetime since I'd be using it for only drinking water. It's about $300 but would pay for itself since I don't need replacements. Bacteria-wise the KDF is supposed to prevent any bacteria growth, but it is unclear to me whether it kills it or not. Of course I'm on city water so I don't know how important that is. Anybody use this stuff? The alternative that Kinetico offered was about $100 cheaper and had micro filters to take out bacteria, but only had the carbon (3 cartridge system). Of course you have to replace cartridges about once a year.

    Anyway, I need to buy something soon. If the 10% crosslinked resin is that much better I should go with it but wanted to check in for any comments here.

    Thanks again!

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your Fleck Twin supplier is making some interesting claims regarding 50% less salt use with 10% resin. Can he back that up with numbers and actual statements from his customers, I doubt it.

    You seem to have found a seller you like and believe, so if I were you, I'd pose these questions to at least three other Fleck softener sellers and see if they give you the same answers to the same questions. I doubt they will.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good idea justalurker. I have no particular affinity for this dealer other than they are the only ones I've found that have the twin tank to match Kinetico. I haven't found another because I haven't looked around yet! I keep getting pulled away to look at granite and tile, fireplaces and so on. Anyway, I'm off to see if there are some other Fleck/twin tank suppliers.

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Are you shopping locally or online?

    If online, then ANY softener seller can drop-ship you any softener (in parts) in any configuration that you desire and will to make the sale. They all drop-ship through only a couple of nationwide wholesalers who handle pretty much any softener component there is.

    If you're shopping locally then this dealer may not be familiar with everything that is available and likes to stick with just what they've sold and are familiar with.

    You need to get a softener that is properly sized and setup for your water usage and water conditions more than anything else.

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gary Slusser is not my arch-nemesis but he could be yours.

    I bought a softener from Gary and my education started after he cashed my check.

    But since you brought him up... there is nothing unique that he can offer you that any online drop-shipping softener seller can't except you'll have to really search to find a similar an attitude both before and after the sale that Gary expounds.

    He will poo-poo a twin resin tank softener because, as he's stated all over the net, "no one needs soft water 24/7"... well, except the people who want it.

    He will tell you about 90 year old women who learn to solder and that anyone can do it... well, except when they can't and flood their basement.

    I can go on but the truth is with real estate it's location, location, location and with water treatment it's dealer, dealer, dealer.

    That statement is the best advice you'll ever get anywhere regarding water treatment and it was FREE.

    Here's more sound advice... you stand the best chance of getting the right softener by dealing with a local water treatment professional that you can LOOK in the eye before the sale and who'll be there to stand behind what they sold you after the sale.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi again lurker. I spoke to Gary the other day and just now posted a recap of what I believe he is telling me so that I am sure that I have it right. I want to reproduce it below for your comment if you would. Do you agree/disagree with anything? Also Gary does not seem to like dual systems because they regenerate only when you are using the water and trigger the counter to start regenerating. This drops a couple gpm to the drain while you are in the shower or trying to fill a bathtub. I'm not sure this is really a problem, but if his sizing methods are correct, then I don't think the double capacity is really worth the extra money. I'm still thinking about that one. Anyway, take a look if you would. Maybe it will help some others here as well:

    We first determined that I needed to remove 30,000 grains from my water each week. The most cost effective use of salt is to regenerate at 6 lb/ft of resin, which puts me at needing 1.5 ft total resin based on the resin capacity chart (thereby using 9 lb salt/regeneration). I COULD go with only 1 ft of resin and regenerate with more salt, but I don't get as much bang for the buck -- I'm throwing good salt down the drain.

    But now we have to consider my maximum flow rate as the capacity calculations above do not take high flow rate, and potential hardness break through, into account. In my case, we estimated that my max flow would be around 12 gpm which is borderline for a 2.0 ft unit. We went with a 2.5 ft 13" diameter unit which is good for a max expected flow, or SFR of 18 gpm. I assume these figures are based on published guidelines for the resin we are going to use. So in my case a 2.0 ft unit will just barely give the resin enough contact time with the water before it exits the tank whereas the 2.5 ft unit will have plenty of contact time, or you could say residence time. So now the 1.5 ft of resin is no longer an option because I have multiple shower heads and a tub filler forcing me to go to a 2.5 ft unit.

    Now when it comes time for reneration I still only need to replenish 30,000 grains. So I'm still going to use just 9 lb of salt even though I have 2.5 ft of resin and not 1.5 ft as we originally calculated. This means I'm using only 9/2.5 = 3.6 lb salt/ft of resin AND I have the necessary reserves of resin in the tank to handle the occasional high flow situation.

    Now let's say I go to one of the online websites and look up a Clack WS1.25 32,000 grain unit (1.5 ft resin). It tells me it is a 14 gpm unit. However, your contention is that this 14 gpm is merely the softener's flow capacity at a pressure drop of 15 psi, and NOT a reflection of the flow rate that the resin can handle without hardness breakthrough. Where can I find a specification on max flow rate for the resin we are using (which is ?). I would like to confirm for myself that this 14 gpm really is a misleading specification.

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "... Gary does not seem to like dual systems because they regenerate only when you are using the water and trigger the counter to start regenerating. This drops a couple gpm to the drain while you are in the shower or trying to fill a bathtub. I'm not sure this is really a problem... ."

    Because it is not. Every Kinetico sold is a twin resin tank softener using "centuries old water power" (Gary loves to pick on them for that) and I've NEVER read a single complaint posted by a Kinetico owner regarding pressure loss during regeneration.

    Come to think of it I've never read a single post by an owner of a Fleck based twin resin tank softener regarding pressure loss during regeneration either.

    I've had numerous twin resin tank softeners in my home and lived with them over a long period of time and notice no pressure loss during regeneration.

    Why have soft water 24/7 when you can get hard water for a couple hours once or twice a week ;)? Yea, I know, it's only at 2AM, but the question has merit.

    "Where can I find a specification on max flow rate for the resin we are using (which is ?)".

    The resin you will get is a generic branded high capacity resin from Nelsen, the nationwide drop-shipper, that Gary uses (or did).

    Here are the specs on that resin... click here for resin specs . Notice the asterisk regarding the SFR?

    No doubt this Nelsen branded resin comes from a major manufacturer like Purolite but I like to see that the name on the resin box is one I recognize.

    If you were getting Purolite C-100 resin then you could get the specs from them.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You say: "Why have soft water 24/7 when you can get hard water for a couple hours once or twice a week ;)? Yea, I know, it's only at 2AM, but the question has merit."

    Here's where I'm coming from... A year ago (when we were planning our new house) at a home show I saw a box softener for $2200 installed, so I budgeted that much when it came time to install something. I figured it couldn't be much higher than that. Then Kinetico comes out a month or two ago and quoted me $1895, so I figure I'm on track. Then I really start my research and learn words like Fleck, Clack, Purolite and Vortek, Justalurker, Gary, and Andy and really interesting terms like $500 and $600 systems, not $2200. So I thought I was set on a two tank system because of obvious reasons and the price tag was half of what I was prepared for (notice that I'm typing this at 3:00 am and will be using water in 10 minutes). More recently I talk to Gary, who is obviously extremely well informed, and he gives me some pause.

    The issue for me now is whether Gary oversizes his units. I have 100% confidence that his units do the job he states 100% of the time. The question is whether they are over-engineered. Gary would obviously say "No" - actually he'd say "Hell No" :o) but I need to verify this with data I can find from manufacturers. Trust is earned, not granted as they say. Why is over-engineering imporant? For one, the price tag of his recommendation approaches that of the two tank system that has an SFR lower than what he would consider acceptable. I don't think I want the two tank system bad enough if it has to be designed to Gary's standards.

    In a worst case scenario, even IF his systems are over designed, you end up paying a couple hundred dollars too much for the bigger unit and too much resin, but you still save on salt because you can regenerate at very efficient salt levels because of the large amount of resin. I think the return on investment from salt savings would take several years for me, and having to deal with a couple fewer salt bags is probably a better deal than any $ savings.

    Well, it is late so I'm going to stop before I get to rambling. Thanks!

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You missed the point of my question but you are right on point asking the questions you're asking. The question was meant to be facetious ;)

    I was pointing out that of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of twin resin tank softeners out there sized by Kinetico dealers and Culligan dealers (Fleck based softeners) and independent water treatment pros and anonymous online softener sellers all around the world I don't recall reading a post complaining about pressure loss. Are all those twin resin tank softener owners oblivious to it or don't they give it any thought because their twin resin tank softeners are working fine and they are enjoying soft water 24/7?

    I'm a fan of twin tank softeners. They just make sense. I bought a single tank unit from Gary and it's been a door stop for quite a while.

    According to Gary, he is the only person on the planet who knows how to correctly size a water softener. How can all the water treatment professionals be so wrong? They'd all have to eat the return of all the softeners they sell when they don't work correctly?

    Gary knows everything there is to know about water treatment... just ask him and he'll tell you so.

    When you buy a softener online for cheap (from any online seller) and the parts come, you assemble the softener, and it doesn't do its job or you're not happy with it, how do you return it? It's full of water and assembled. Shipping was included in the price of the softener but it won't be on the return and you're in for a big surprise at what the shipping will cost.

    When you had the Kinetico dealer in there did they go into salt efficiency with you? Kineticos tend to be very salt efficient. If you contact Andy he can explain that in detail for you.

    Salt isn't the largest long term savings with a softener... long term trouble free service is. The length of the warranty is a consideration. Parts on the truck is, rather than UPS or FedEx away. Any online seller can vaporize in a nano second and your parts only warranty vaporizes with them. Nelsen, the wholesale distributor, who drop-shipped you the parts won't talk to you and neither will Clack or Fleck. They'll tell you call your dealer.

    While you're information shopping you ought to search this forum for Asolo. He's got a couple Kineticos that are decades old. They finally fizzed from old age and many, many gallons of hard water. He had them both rebuilt and is softening away.

    I have no dog in this fight and am not looking to sell you anything. I'm trying to let you in on what I've learned in 15 years of buying, owning, repairing, and helping other people solve their softener problems. The most common water treatment problem I've seen on these forums is what people buy and who they buy it from and those two problems are very hard to overcome after the fact. Sears (Morton, GE, Waterboss, Whirlpool, and other box store) softeners are the most often complained about and Kinetico has the least number of posts requesting help.

    I don't have anything to add.

  • andy_c
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Daniel,

    justalurker has made many fine points. There are always two (or more) sides to every story and opinion. The issue of pressure loss is fairly moot as I have never had in any of my installation follow-ups had any complaint of losing pressure unless there switch was improperly set.

    As with all water treatment equipment, they must be properly sized and set up.

    I find it strange that those who have, deal with or sell twin-tank systems never proclaim the 7/24 advantage, albeit there for your benefit. Instead, it is usually criticized by those selling other equipment. Funny, but true.

    Whomever you decide to do business with, make sure they treat you with respect and behave in a professional manner. I have never considered it very ethical to badmouth the competition in order to promote one's own product/service.

    I deal in both twin- and single-tank systems. Prices reflect value, warranty, performance and durability. I am more than willing to sell and install any single-tank system available on the market. Yet, after describing both systems, most choose the twin-tank system.

    I do personal follow-ups on-site on all sales to re-evaluate the installation, unit performance, and customer opinion. This time is as important as my initial sale's call as it provides me with pertinent information as to whether what we are selling and installing is worth continuing. Occasionally, we discontinue a product or technology. Our twin-tank sales continue to climb and customers refer me to additional propects.

    Go with what you feel comfortable with, but remember that you want something that will last decades, not years. Your softener is THE hardest working appliance you will ever have. Going cheap can be very costly.

    Andy Christensen, CWS-II

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for both replies. Justalurker I knew you were joking with your question. This SFR rating from the resin manufacturer has me confused. I see one spec with the Purolite C-100 (I think) showing 1 - 5.0 gpm/ft^3 and also see the link provided above showing Nelson resin around a 9 gpm/ft^3. Do I recall correctly that the SFM is a function of the depth of the resin as much as the volume? This is why Gary says 1.5 ft of resin has an SFR of 12 while 2.0 ft of resin has an SFR of 13 -- the tank size increases and negates the benefit of the larger volume?

    This reminds me of something confusing. If Purolite says their resin is good up to 5 gpm/ft^3, then that means all the 32,000 g units with 1 ft^3 of resin can only handle a max flow of 5 gpm before break through? It seems if the bed depth in the tank were more important than the volume of resin, then the spec should reflect that. It seems more difficult than it should be to get a handle on this.

    Justalurker - have you ever waited until the last day before regeneration, turned on half or more of your home's faucets and checked hardness for break through? I have a strong suspicion that most people don't know if they have break through. My brother has a softener but I'm not sure they even know when the thing needs salt added. I know you are not in that situation, but I think people may not have the consistent quality they think they do - but that's just my WAG. What size system are you using?

    Also, it seems the convention is to say that if hardness shows to be 0 grains, then it is considered 100% soft water when in reality there is always some hardness leakage in the ppm range. Is the water considered soft whether the leakage is 1.0 ppm or even 10 ppm?

    Thanks

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Be aware that the Nelsen link is not a jpg or PDF of an actual Nelsen spec sheet but rather a simple table which that seller has inserted numbers into. I suspect that's why the asterisk is there.

    " It seems more difficult than it should be to get a handle on this." That's why it's best to find a water treatment professional you trust who is on site and can answers those questions in the context of your water conditions, water usage, and installation circumstances.

    Besides, how would you recognize the correct answer if you saw it? You wouldn't know for sure till you tested that softener in your installation... right?

    "Justalurker - have you ever waited until the last day before regeneration, turned on half or more of your home's faucets and checked hardness for break through?"

    On a regular basis and always shows 0 hardness and have actually sent samples to a lab to confirm.

    The size system I am using is irrelevant as I don't have your water conditions or water usage.

    "...I think people may not have the consistent quality they think they do". Ignorance is (sometimes) bliss. As long as there aren't calcium deposits on the faucets, the boss' hair feels silky, and the water heater drains most people are happy and that's what Sears and some online softener hucksters depend on.

    You might want to read this thread... click here

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lurker - how are you able to get italicized text for quoting?

    You say:
    "The size system I am using is irrelevant as I don't have your water conditions or water usage."

    Well, obviously -- but what I was getting at is this notion that if you have a high flow rate and size your softener ONLY considering grains capacity needed, then how bad is the breakthrough really? For instance, if you said you could achieve an SFR of as much as 13 gpm, but only had a 1.5 ft^3 softener, yet never had any breakthrough during those high gpm excursions, then I'd have some idea of its importance. If you said you saw 2 or 3 grains every once in awhile with 1.5 ft of resin then that would tell me something else.

    I have since talked to a very friendly Purolite rep about their C-100 resin. He said the 1 - 5 gpm/ft^3 spec (which depends on tank geometry) is more for industrial applications where that can be a critical parameter. He was very much of the opinion that you can use a 1.5 ft or a 2.5 ft, and it will just impact your leakage, which might change only from say 3 ppm to 5 ppm. His point of view was pretty much that for a home, as long as you are removing the bulk of the hardness, then you're fine, and not to worry about a few ppm here or there. He actually advocates cracking the softener bypass open to let a couple of grains through to minimize that slippery feeling in the shower. I don't care for that idea myself.

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "...how are you able to get italicized text for quoting?"

    HTML 101... this text will be italicized you have to eliminate the spaces before and after the "i" and before and after the "/i". It I didn't put the spaces in this post the HTML would execute and the HTML commands would not show up.

    My softeners are sized considering more factors than "grains capacity removal required". An important thing is to get an accurate number of exactly what SFR in GPM you require.

    As far as my softeners... 26-30g harness with no iron I've had a 1.5 cu ft single tank unit (from Gary), a 1.5 cu ft twin tank (.75 cu ft each resin tank) unit, a 2.0 cu ft twin (1.0 cu ft each resin tank) unit for substantial periods of time (except Gary's which was not in service at my house for long) and a variety of single tank and twin tank units for evaluation including the cute little Kinetico model 50 munchkin.

    In each instance of my "keeper" softeners, not the ones I was evaluating, I never observed hardness leaking through and I set them up for very high KCl efficiency. I use one bag of KCl a month.Have never experienced KCl recrystallization although I do clean out my brine tank once a year... just seems prudent to do it.

    I run all electrically driven softeners on a small computer grade UPS unit, lots of thunderstorms around here in season, and there is no reason not to use one.

    I always install a three ball valve master bypass and an OEM bypass if included with the softener. I can use the three ball valve master bypass to supply water to the house while I'm doing R&D on different softeners. Without the three ball valve master bypass (Gary poo-poos the three ball valve bypass) you'd have to shut the water off to the house if the softener with OEM bypass is removed or if the OEM bypass fails or leaks you'd have no water to the house while you're waiting for your online seller to ship you a replacement part. Ball valves are cheap but common sense is not as common as the word suggests..

    Water treatment isn't the only place where common sense and redundancy pays off, but both are often ignored by many who should know better.

    BTW, if you were talking to Gary at Purolite he is a very nice guy.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks! I didn't realize that those commands would work in forum posts! The guy at Purolite was Ted.

    I must've seen this somewhere else already, but what was the problem with the softener Gary supplied? I assume it was a Clack valve as he seems to prefer those.

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I bought a Clack from a quack and let's leave it at that.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Related question: If I want to run the drain line up overhead into the basement ceiling joist area (about 7.5' elevation) and then over about 6' and down to a floor drain or sink, is there a problem with this arrangement? Since fast rinse is the last step I assume clean soft water will be trapped in the line except for what happens to siphon out. Anything to be concerned about?

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    With that distance and rise no problem.

    Remember, you need to air gap the drain line at the drain.

    Some pretty slick air gaps here... http://www.airgap.com/

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks justalurker. I was thinking to run the drain into my laundry sink but we'll see.

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you run the drain to the sink and the drain line doesn't touch the sink you're OK. You want to eliminate any possibility of the drain line getting cross-contaminated.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're talking about getting sink water sucked back up the drain line somehow?

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If the sink drain plugs or backs up, the water in the sink CAN NOT touch the softener drain line.

    If the water in the plugged sink can touch the softener drain line then it can be siphoned back into your potable water. That is cross-contamination and prohibited by code.

    A simple bracket fixing the softener drain line to the back corner of the sink with the softener drain line suspended away from the sides and the (worst case scenario) uppermost water level of the sink will do the job.

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    daniel,

    Since you "... used to operate and maintain commercial sized water softeners" I'd think you'd know this fundamental plumbing stuff.

    If you decide to do-it-yourself perhaps you should get a qualified softener installer to double check your installation to make sure you don't screw-it-yourself.

    Remember, when you do-it-yourself there's no one else to blame.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Since you "... used to operate and maintain commercial sized water softeners" I'd think you'd know this fundamental plumbing stuff.

    LOL. I think you misunderstood my tone. You said I shouldn't let the drain tube touch the laundry sink because it could get cross-contaminated. You didn't say anything about a siphon effect, so I asked you to clarify by asking if you meant a siphon. I don't know if you know what a siphon is. You've given me plenty of advice, which I appreciate, but I don't know you.

    When I say water sucked up "somehow" it sounds like I don't know what a siphon is, but that's not what I meant. I know next to nothing about the design of these Fleck/Clack valves so I don't know the exact mechanism that would allow the siphon to occur. That's what I meant by "somehow."

    You are correct that I wasn't thinking about the code requiring separation of the drain line with any other drain, so thanks again for that link. I haven't chosen a softener yet, but rest assured that whichever way I go it won't be a WAG installation.

  • justalurker
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The code requirement of an air gap on a drain line connecting to a drain is regardless of what the drain line is connected to. The softener brand or design you choose has no bearing on the code requirement. The code requirement also applies to the RO drain line.

    I'm confident you'll choose a softener that is exactly what you think you want.

    Let us know how it all works out.

  • danielj_2009
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    re: "the code requirement..." - OK but I figured that much.

    re: "I'm confident you'll choose a softener that is exactly what you think you want." - Thanks... I think.

  • driveguy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    could you please post an update? it's been about 5 years, and i'd like to know what you chose and how it is working for you. thanks.

  • pprioroh
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    i'm not the op, but i've owned several houses with several systems over the last 20 years. The last 10 years I've had a kinetico system and will absolutely not own another brand.

    All the hype about 50% less salt use with blah blah resin and pressure drop during regeneration, etc is just sales talk. The kinetic has been rock solid, uses no electricity, just WORKS. The only complaint I would have is occasionally I'm boneheaded enough to forget to fill it with salt and I go a bit before I realize it's run out. If there were some way it would beep or let me know then it would truly be IMO as good as it gets.

    I'm not a dealer or in any way benefit from sales of kinetico, I'm just a very picky customer that really enjoys when a product actually does what it says and exceeds expectations.

Sponsored
Moda Kitchen and Bath
Average rating: 5 out of 5 stars20 Reviews
Loudoun County's Custom Kitchen & Bath Designs for Everyday Living