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Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Posted by mori1 (My Page) on
Sat, Jun 16, 12 at 18:17

Okay three months ago I installed a new kitchen sink. A month later, I started to get leaks. It seems the p-trap was slipping off. It happened two more times so I went to my local hardware store. I was told that I had it hooked up wrong and was told the correct way. So I hooked the pipes up the correct way but ran into a problem.
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I cut the drain tailpipe as far as I could but I'm about three inches short from making a connection. How do I fix this?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Cut 3 more inches off the tailpipe. You can have the two nuts almost back to back.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

The tailpiece shown in the photo has a wye inlet for a dishwasher line. That is the wrong tailpiece.

Get a straight tailpiece and you will be able to cut is shorter so your trap will fit.

If you have a dishwasher it should be connected to the dishwasher inlet port on the disposal.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Actually, I was told that the dishwasher should be hooked up to the sink tailpipe not disposal.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

And pray tell who told you that?


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

A plumber. The original sink I had, the dishwasher was connected to the tailpipe. When I got the new disposal, I noticed it had a connection for a dishwasher so I was going to connect it there. However, I was told to keep the connection the same as not cause backup problems in the future.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Running the DW drain through the GD is not going to case "backup problems in the future."

It was once very common before that started adding primitive ('one tooth') GDs into some DWs (others added filter baskets).

the only thing you need to do is make sure you have run the GD before starting the DW cycles so the DW is clear.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

lazypup and brickeyee are correct. Route the DW drain line through the GD and eliminate the DW entry below the sink drain. It will work fine, it's code, and it will allow you flexibility to do whatever you want with the other connections.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Okay, will do.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Probably silly to mention, but.......

DO knock out the restrictor in GD. You knew that, right?


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Separate issue - the waste arm appears to be significantly higher than the disposer waste outlet. Isn't there going to be standing water in the bottom of the garbage disposer most of the time? Is that a problem?


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Oops. Yup. I don't like that either....but don't know.

I'm not expert. Request someone who is more knowledgable to pay attention to what I didn't.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

If the GD waste arm is higher than the bottom of the GD it will leak and corrode very quickly.

GDs are not designed to have constant standing water in them.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

The photo I'm seeing is too dark. Is there a separate waste arm for the disposer?


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

I have sat here looking at this photo for more than 2 hours, and the more I look at it, the more confused I am. I even ran this photo through my photo editing program to lighten it a bit so I could see the details better, but that only brought on even more questions.

The only conclusion I could come to is that none of this mess was done by a bona fide plumber. Plumbers are simply too lazy to go to all the bother or engineering this Afro-Engineering when a simple "disposal type center waste kit" would have resolved the whole installation correctly.

As homebound mentioned, it appears that the line from the disposal is connected to a black fixture arm coming through the wall. On the end of that black pipe there is a white fitting that is being used as a transition from Pipe to tubing to attach the trap tailpiece.

The first question that came to mind there was, What kind of fitting is that? It certainly doesn't look like any ASTM listed trap adapter that I am familiar with.

My next question was, how is that white fitting connected to the black pipe? White plastic DWV fittings are PVC and there is some black PVC pipe out there, but generally black DWV pipe is ABS. Code prohibits glueing PVC to ABS.

What is the blue goopy stuff on that fitting where it meets the trap tailpiece?

I then looked at the left sink where the alledged problem is.

The first question that came to mind here was, what is that Trap adapter connected to? No reputable plumber would ever install a fixture arm that high, so I then had to try to figure out why they would have a DWV line coming out of the wall at that height? It is possible that they originally had a cleanout there, but that doesn't really make sense unless the original P-trap was glued in. Code requires a cleanout on the upstream end of all lines, but if there is a mechanical trap adapter that allows removing the trap, that trap adapter also meets code as the cleanout. It makes more sense to me that the line was probably a stubout to an AAV to vent the line.

Whatever it was intended for, there is one thing we can assume. The lower fixture arm is black pipe, most likely ABS and since code prohibits gluing PVC to ABS we can rest assured that the stubout where the left sink is connected is also ABS, but there is a PVC trap adapter, whats wrong with that picture?

The proper solution for this whole mess would be to first knock out the disposal DW inlet port (make sure you go in the disposal and remove the knockout piece or it will jam the disposal the first time it runs)

Attach the DW drain line to the disposal inlet port.

Next, remove and discard the trap that is connected to the disposal.

Unscrew the metal bracket that is holding the black 1/4 bend on the disposal. Save the metal bracket and the rubber gasket that is inside but discard that 1/4 bend.

Get a "Disposal type center waste kit". The disposal type center waste kit will have a center baffled tee and two cross tubes. One cross tube has a formed 90deg bend on the end with a compression fitting on the end of the 90. The other cross tube is straight and it has a flat flanged end.

Select the straight cross tube and slip the metal disposal bracket on the line, sliding it to the flange. Make sure the rubber gasket is in the disposal port, then hold the flat flange of the cross tube against the gasket and using the screws, tighten the metal bracket to the disposal.

NOTE- The polypropelene tubing used to make the tailpieces, traps and crosstubes are molded in a two piece mold. Check the tailpieces where the mold line is and make sure there is no sprue (excess plastic from the mold). Even a slight sprue line can cause a leak so it is best to lightly scrape the surface with a pocket knife to make sure there is no excess plastic.)

Now loosely attach one end of the baffled tee so the side output port is pointing down.

Now move to the left sink. Remove the existing DW port tailpiece and install a straight sink tailpiece.

You can now connect the other cross tube to the tee and you will be able to see where to cut the sink tailpiece and the cross tubes to get the final lengths required.

Now move down to the fixture arm coming out of the wall. First cut the existing trap adapter off that line, then install an ABS 1/8 bend (ABS DWV grade 45deg elbow) and set the elbow to angle the fixture are towards the center tee area.

Attach a Pee trap to the output port on the bottom of the tee and direct the tailpiece of the p-trap towards the fixtue arm.

You will then be able to see where to install an ABS trap adapter. If the P-trap tailpiece won't reach you need to extend the ABS pipe out. DO NOT- install an extension tailpiece on the trap, that is code prohibited.

Finally, determine what the upper ABS from the wall was for. If it was for an AAV then you have to replace the AAV.

If not for an AAV, cap it off.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Wow I read that three times and I kept thinking, what???? So I thought if I could see the parts that your talking about then it would make sense. Only I can't find disposal type center waste kit online. BTW, I live in a duplex that was built in the late 70s, early 80s. I've never had any problems with the double bowl sink. I replaced the old one because it was a piece of crap and disposal died.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

I took some additional of the garbage disposal hookup.

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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

homebound wrote: "The photo I'm seeing is too dark. Is there a separate waste arm for the disposer?"

I'd like a clear answer to that question, too.

Even after copy/paste/enhancement, like lazypup, I, too, am trying to make sense of the photos.

However, it does appear to me that, perhaps, the GD drain line may have its own separate outlet to which it's connected in the photo. If I'm judging the angles right, it appears that outlet is lower than the GD outlet.....which means maybe you're OK there and reconnection of the other sink just got a whole lot easier.

Please clarify about drain connection from GD and/or provide better pix.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

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Hopefully these help


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Never mind searching online,,,go to any hardware store, home supply or plumbing supply and you can have the kit in your hand immediately, with no waiting and no S&H fee.

In fact, the actual retail cost of the kit is probably less than what you would pay in S&H. Expect to pay about $10 to $15 for a plastic kit.

I just made an illustration so you can see the difference between a standard center waste kit and a disposal type center waste kit.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Why do I need to connect both sinks when each sink has its own drain/waste arm? If the Ptrap on the GD is too low shouldn't I just fix that?


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

From latest pix, appears to me your GD connection is fine....drain connection lower than GD discharge. May I assume GD is working normally? No residual in GD after it runs?

If so, that would certainly simplify re-do on the other side. Connect DW to GD, then re-plumb the other side with proper-length fittings and you're done.

Still don't get the two different-height waste arms but if that's what you've got and it works, seems to me you're almost done.

From time stamps on your two posts, I'm thinking maybe lazypup posted before seeing your pictures. Before seeing these new pix, I was wondering if that GD outlet was just suspended in air awaiting reconnection to the higher-level waste arm.....which probably wouldn't work. Couldn't understand the double trap either and new pix helped clarify.

Certainly, you can cap the higher-level waste outlet and combine everything into the lower one if you want. However, assuming your GD is working/draining properly and the other sink is draining properly, I'd just fix what need fixing and walk away.

Given this set-up, I don't understand why installer would put DW drain anyplace but via the GD. Don't get that at all.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

The answer is simple....Obviously the lines inside the wall are combined....

If your under the IRC and you combine the two sinks with a center waste kit to a common P-trap the combined load is 2dfu's, but if you use two P-traps as you have it now, each P-trap is rated at 2dfu's and you now have a combined load of 4dfu's but the 1-1/2 inside the wall is rated for a maximum of 3dfu's.

On the other hand, if your under the UPC the 1-1/2" line inside the wall is limited to 1dfu, so you would need to increase the entire line to 2".


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

asolo,

I rarely run the GD. I'm only using that side of the sink because the main sink pipes are no longer connected. Otherwise, it get cleaned once a week. As for the dishwasher it gets run twice or three times a year. I installed the sink in March and have run the dishwasher once, since then. I installed the GD the way it was when I took the original out. It was the main sink pipes I messed with but when the ptrap kept slipping off, I reinstalled the correct way, only coming inches short of connection.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

lazypup,

What does IRC and UPC mean?


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

You keep saying you installed that sink the correct way,,, that may be the correct way in your mind, but I can assure you, it is not only NOT THE CORRECT WAY, it is actually a violation of code,,but since you feel your know more about sink pipes that plumbers do,,,I shall leave you to your own inventive genious.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

lazypup,

Have I offended you in some way?

Before I removed the original sink I made a note of the way the pipes were installed. Since, I never had any plumbing issue with the original double bowl sink (I lived in this duplex for 12 years), why would I think that the way the pipes were installed were wrong. Like I stated, I installed the GD the exact way the original was. For the main sink I changed the orientation of the pvc pipe that was screwed to the black pipe. When the ptrap kept slipping off I put it back to the original (the correct way as I know it)coming short on the connection.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

International Residential Code

Uniform Plumbing Code

Google is your friend.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Thanks asolo


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Photobucket

Photobucket

I'm hoping that these pictures will help in my explanation. Asolo or lazypup please correct anything that is incorrect.

There was a time when separate drains were to have separate P-trap. Of course that has changed and is against UPC and IRC code. However, IRC does allow an exception, if the P-traps are parallel and with the right wye where the two trap arms meet needs to be enlarged to 2" for it to meet code. Now I'm not sure if drain arms are the same is P-trap arms but they meet at the pipe in the above pictures. Which I hope meets code. I hope you can see the pipe because I tried to get as much light as I could up there.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

"Before I removed the original sink I made a note of the way the pipes were installed. Since, I never had any plumbing issue with the original double bowl sink (I lived in this duplex for 12 years), why would I think that the way the pipes were installed were wrong."

Repeating a code violation does not make it go away.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Beyond what I've written, I'm out of gas on this one. Don't know what I'm looking at with the new pix and not knowledgable enough to do you much good, I'm afraid. Once I'm beyond the basics, I'm over my head. Best not to pretend otherwise.

I can tell you from years of exposure that lazypup and brickeyee are worth paying attention to. I've learned a lot from them.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Understand, thanks for the help.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

hi mori1.

web searching is the skill that brought you this far. You got to this forum. Congratulations. The answer to your query "What does IRC and UPC..." is answered by using the very same skill, web searching.

web search this for images:
. continuous waste tubular .
There are two kinds: center and end.
Thus, web search using each additional word separately.

Since your initial images are now not showing, I won't venture a guess what you need to install or change.

But, I will say that I see TWO p-traps on a single "arm". (Arm is the plumbing term). It is far far better for your drain to have one ptrap on the arm, and to use a continuous tubular waste kit.

Don't ask any questions that you think I might answer. Not now. Go learn and then come back with questions that show that you learned a lot in the interval.

Hth


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

I deleted the other pictures because they were too dark. The pictures in post 19 are better. I guess I don't understand what you mean by single "arm" since the P-traps don't connect together.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

this is true. There are two arms, each one connecting at a different height. We cannot see what they are connected to.

It has been suggested to you that you combine all the three things (GD, DW and sink drain) on the lower arm using a tubular continuous waste kit. This is what my post was referring to.

A dishwasher can be hooked up to the sink tailpipe or to a disposal. But you don't (apparently) have enough height / space to use a sink drain tailpiece connection. I think this is why some people have suggested you hook the DW to the GD, and with a tubular continuous waste kit.

It may be that using copper drain pipes instead of PVC/ABS pipes you will have more height / space.

There are still a few unanswered questions about your house. What, for instance, used to work, long ago, before you started this project?


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

The arms are connected to the ABS pipe, pictured in post 30.

Three months ago I installed a new kitchen sink. A month later, I started to get leaks. It seems the p-trap was slipping off.

Before I removed the original sink I made a note of the way the pipes were installed. Since, I never had any plumbing issue with the original double bowl sink (I lived in this duplex for 12 years. Like I stated, I installed the GD the exact way the original was. For the main sink I changed the orientation of the pvc pipe that was screwed to the black pipe. When the ptrap kept slipping off I put it back to the original way coming short on the connection.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

It is possible to connect a dishwasher to a main sink drain, and it is allowed by code too. Your GD drain is fine so we can discuss only the one that is showing a problem.

When did the gap arise ? The gap seemed to arise when (in your OP you wrote) " I was told that I had it hooked up wrong and was told the correct way. So I hooked the pipes up the correct way but ran into a problem. I cut the drain tailpipe as far as I could but I'm about three inches short from making a connection." The information you provided a few hours ago is not helpful.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

"Your GD drain is fine so we can discuss only the one that is showing a problem."

Appears to me that connecting DW to GD would allow elimination of that piece with the DW connection on the other drain. Wouldn't eliminating that piece, replacing with another specifically-sized piece, allow easy length adjustment to close the gap?


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Sorry, would have posted sooner but internet was down due to storm last night. Here is the hookup.

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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

That's what I was suggesting. Does it work? Better pix, too, thanks.

However, concerned about the DW drain hose. Appears to be coming up from below. Was expecting to see that hose coming down to the connection from the high-point of a high-loop. Does that drain line have a high-loop?


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Yes, I tested the connections by filling the sink 5 times for leaks. First two times, found I didn't tight connections enough.
No, the rest of the dishwasher hose just lies on the cabinet floor.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Give it a high-loop. Quick/easy....and important.


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RE: Trouble with kitchen sink pipes

Not enough hose to do that. Looks like I'm be making another trip to the hardware store.


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