My first question is why? If the cast iron is not leaking there really is no reason to remove it.

Some of the 2" appears to be galvanized iron pipe. I might consider replacing that but here again, it would depend upon the overall condition of the pipe.

Bottom line, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Can these CI to CI joints be undone? Are they threaded? They seem to have something like Locktite on them.

Yes, yes, years of crud is sealing them.

A large pipe wrench with a 4' to 6' pipe to extend the pipe wrench, once it starts it turns out fairly easily. ABS will thread right into the CI.

To The Pup's point... I think duct tape and multiple rubber patches fits the description of "It's Broken". I bet it's also full of corrosion and crud, like that piece on the ground.

Orourke - this isn't going to be fun. The CI to CI joint is most likely put together with lead and oakum.

Cast iron has to be cut - and it's brittle like tile. You probably don't want to venture as far as point "A" because you probably won't be able to make the transition there and the likelihood of breaking that entire fitting is very good.

Point "B" would be good, but I don't know how you will make the connection. I'm also not convinced that what's left of joint "B" is sound.

You may be better off sucking it up and hiring a pro to do this. They will have the tools and experience to know how to pull this off.

Thanks for the info,

Jakethewonderdog, the joints on the main 4" pipe seem like lead and oakum. I will look closer at joint B and see whether it is threaded or lead and oakum. Then I will post back.

Either Hendricus did not read the question or he doesn't have a clue as to how Cast Iron joints are made.

The cat iron pipe illustrated in those pictures is Cast iron Hub & spigot pipe. The pipe is always laid with the Hub on the upstream end, then the spigot (raw pipe end) is inserted into the hub in the same manner as fitting ABS or PVC pipe into the hub of a fitting. The inside diameter of a hub is large enough so that when the spigot end is inserted into the hub there still remains about 1/2" of clearance between the outside of the spigot and the inside of the hub. That space is first filled with Oakum, which is a natural fiber product that looks like frayed hemp rope. (Some oakum is impregnated with an oily tar like substance). The oakum is then packed down into the joint until the joint was 1/2 full of oakum and finally hot lead was poured in on top of the oakum. The molten lead would then solidify sealing the joint.

While Hendricus has suggested using a 4' to 6' foot length of pipe to extend the handle of a large pipe wrench to unscrew the joints I can assure you that even if you used a 6' pipe wrench with a 10' extension it would not take one of those leaded CI joints apart.

Coming off the combo (combination Wye & 1/8 bend) between B & C there is a short length of CI pipe, then there is a galvanized iron pipe (GIP) in the foreground. There appears to be another GIP riser attached to the second combo between points C & D.

That GIP is threaded into the hub of the CI, but here again, judging by the age of the pipe, it would be nearly impossible to ever unscrew that pipe.

The combo on the end of the pipe to the left of point D appears to be a "Fernco" rubber fitting.

You will find that taking that CI & GIP out is not rocket science but it definitely will be very labor intensive and potentially very dangerous if you do not take some precautions.

The CI pipe from point B to the Fernco on the left it will weigh over 100lbs and once you break a joint it will often fall very quickly and unexpectedly. I would suggest you begin by installing a perforated steel strap hanger at point D & C before you begin removing the pipe.

To remove the pipe begin by removing the Fernco on the left end.

Next you will need to find out what is attached to the GIP riser on the left Combo. No doubt, when they originally installed that GIP they installed strap hangers at some point above, but judging by the age of the pipe you can almost be sure that the original strap hangers have by now either rusted away or at least rusted to the point where they can no longer be trusted to support the weight. You may also see some rudimentary wooden blocking. Although it was required to install hangers or blocking keep in mind that cast iron piping systems were basically self supporting and quite often the hangers or blocking was only haphazardly installed to give the illusion for inspection. Never trust old strapping or wood blocking.

The GIP can easily be cut with a reciprocating saw (Sawzal).

Once you have the Fernco on the left end removed and the GIP cut loose from the CI you can begin removing the CI.

I would begin at point B. First remove all the duct tape then get two heavy hammers (at least 3lb hammers).

Begin on the hub that is immediately to on the left side of the long strip of duct tape hanging down. Hold one hammer tight against the hub on one side of the pipe and hit the hub on the opposite side with the second hammer. It will probably take a half dozen or so licks with the hammer but eventually the hub will shatter. When the hub is shattered you will be able to take all the CI to the left down in one section. You can then carefully continue to break the CI out of the hub on the right side of the tape, but do not break the hub on the right side.

When you have the CI broke out you can use a drill with a 3/8 or 1/2" bit to drill into the lead ring to weaken the lead, then using a pry bar you can pry the lead out of the hub. (I find an old automobile lug wrench works very good for prying the lead out.) With both the CI and the lead removed from the hub you can easily scrap the old oakum out of the hub with a screwdriver, then wipe the inside of the hub clean with a rag and you will be ready to install a Fernco donut in the hub to transition from CI to ABS.

Note: You already have ABS pipe evident on the left side of the photo. Code prohibits gluing PVC to ABS so the solution would be to use ABS to replace the pipe.

I have had luck unscrewing CIP from lead joints, but It's probably not worth it. A sawzall will make short work of the CIP.

The Pup gave good detailed instructions - I haven't seen a fernco doughnut fitting - good to know that they are out there.

My only concern would be the condition of that last hub. Is it corroded right at point "A"?

Thanks for the tips lazypup.

BTW, galv pipe in foreground goes to washing machine. Vertical galv between points C,D is current shower vent

The ABS on the left photo will also be scrapped because that is the current shower drain and the shower will be replaced with a tub (I have another post on that).

So, do you mean that it would be preferable to use PVC for the whole thing (from point B on) rather than ABS if I have the choice?

As far as reasons why I want to replace this stuff, there are many:

A) Duct tape and the ill fitting rubber joints indicate past leaks (now probably sealed by crud).

B) Now is the time to do it. I have a lot of other work to do down there (repiping to PEX and structural work) so I have opened up an additional crawl space access hole in the bathroom floor. So I only have to crawl 3-4. Once I put in the new floor, Id have to crawl 40 from the normal crawlspace access door to this bathroom to do any plumbing work.

C) As the seasons change, the pipes are moving somewhat in relation to the house. This is because I live on clay soil which expands in winter and contracts in the summer. The movement seems to be about ¼" but the cast iron pipes are probably too rigid to absorb it and this is probably what stressed the joints in the first place and made them leak in the past, leading to sloppy repairs. Replacing all that with ABS (especially with flexible joint) will provide plenty of flexibility to absorb the ¼" seasonal movement.

The 4" CI I have is Hub and Spigot with all the takeoffs being threaded. I only know the setups on the houses I've owned. The only reason I answered is that our resident expert did not. When he did answer he jumped all over me and then gave a very informative answer.

Bottom line, we got answers.

orourke - No question you need to replace it, esp if it is your house. It's good to clean that kind of stuff up when you have the chance.

I did some similar work in my house - including new copper water lines. It's one more thing that's right about the house.

Well, I took off the duct tape just to see what type of joint I had at point (B) and found that there was a short piece of pipe (I think it is galv?) with a huge 2"x2" hole in it. The following pictures show the joint at (B) and the hole.

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As you can see the duct tape WAS the pipe. Must have been leaking at least a few drops, although the ground under seems dry. Anyway,

Now I HAVE to fix it because our kitchen sink also drains through this route and were without kitchen sink.

Nothing that some bubble gum won't fix!

The good news is that it will be easier to bust that pipe out.

Support it like The Pup said, and then start cutting the galv pipe with your sawzall - I think it will almost fall down.

If I cut the rotted out galv pipe flush with the hub, should I still bother extracting the lead and oakum ?

Perhaps if I leave the oakum in there once the galv stub holding it in place completely corrodes I may end up with some oakum in my drain pipes?

P.S. I was able to remove the Y at point D. The cast Y to galv thread came off rather easy using a 3" pipe through the Y. I also used some WD40 on the threads, perhaps that helped.

You need to get the hub cleaned out so you can attach the new pipe with a donut gasket.

Fortunately that hole in the pipe will actually work in your favor at this point. Cut the GIP leaving about 1" of the GIP extending out of the hub. Now you will take a heavy hammer (2 or 3lb hand sledge) and a cold chisel and starting close to the edge of the hole, drive the wall of the pipe straight inward towards the center of the pipe. The idea is to get one wall of the pipe to collapse inward like a plastic baby bottle that has been sucked to hard. Absolutely do not try to force the chisel between the lead and the pipe wall. That would result in excessive outward pressure against the hub of the double Tee and you would risk breaking the hub.

Once you have about 1/3 to 1/2 of the GIP pipe collapsed into itself you should be able to use a 3/8" or 1/2" drill motor to drill a hole straight into the lead from the face of the hub. That hole will give you a starting point to begin prying the lead inward. Once you have the lead pried inward just a bit you should be able to use a pry tool to pry the lead out.

OK!! Thanks to all your advice, all the old pipes are out now! Ill post pictures tomorrow.

I was not aware of doughnut seals till you mentioned them and I googled it. I actually saw them today at Lowes. Since the doughnut seal seals just with pressure from the hub, wouldnt a 2"x3"Fernco clamp seal make a tighter seal? Im not sure I can clean the inside of the hub to a smooth surface. I used a small wire brush attached to drill to clean inside the hub and although pretty clean now I cant say the inner surface is really smooth. There are still some hardened rust deposits.

Should I perhaps use both seals, a doughnut seal inside and then cover with a 2"x3" Fernco just to be safe?

Thanks Lazypup, jakethewonderdog and everyone else for the detailed instructions and advice. Apart from the detailed instructions, knowing what lay ahead was huge help in keeping patient and focused.
Here are some photos:

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Some, perhaps, notable facts:

After drilling the holes into the lead seal, I went back and twisted the drill bit to remove more lead, most of the holes fused towether forming a more or less continuous void.
I did not have to resort to hammering the GIP. Since its bottom part was completely corroded it started turning using pipe wrench, then got loose enough that I was able to pull it out with channel locks by pulling and tuning at the same time.
After 50 years the oakum still smelled like tar. I have a new appreciation for how these old lead-oakum seals were made.
The duct tape that was plugging this hole must have been there for at least 15 years (since I bought the house). Im surprised how long it lasted.

Project is on hold pending finding the right doughnut seal. Lowes carries most of the sizes, except the 2"x2" that I need! I plan to use the doughnut seal and also cover the joint with a Fernco 2"x3" joint, as a precaution. Looks like the 3" side can slide over the hub lip with some effort.

Nice job!

I have to admit, I was intimidated by the task. I now know about the doughnut connectors - something I didn't know before.

Good job on getting the lead out - I haven't used that method before, but it looks like it worked, probably easier than just chiseling it out and less chance of breaking the bell.

Nice photos too! Post your finished job if you would.

Found a seal at a local plumbing store and installed it. Is this a doughnut seal or a ty-seal ? Whats the difference anyway? (Google images shows both intermixed).

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The hub, even after I wire brushed it, was not very smooth, there seemed to be casting imperfections and the seal seemed adequate, but not as tight as I had imagined. So I added a bead of silicone to the 2 exteriormost rings of the seal, primarily to smooth out the imperfections in the CI hub.
Finally, to be safe, I covered the whole thing with an external Fernco coupling.

Rebuilding the pipe network with ABS was relatively easy given the flexibility of ABS.

Also since I now have the walls open, I also replaced the vents with ABS all the way up to the main line inverted Y. The GIP vent pipes were in good shape but I expect the more flexible ABS to reduce any seasonal stress on the pipes, since, as I said previously, I live on clay soil which tends to expand and contract some between summer and winter.

Thanks for all the great advice.

In the illustrious words of the actor, George Peppard in the TV show, "The A Team", "I love it when a plan comes together".

I will still stand on my original comment, "If it ain't broke, Don't fix it" however in this instance closer inspection confirmed that it was broke so there was little choice but to forge ahead on the project. The question then became, "Is this something I can handle or do I need to call a pro?"

As the photos clearly show, you took on a difficult job under what can only be described as adverse working conditions and no doubt, even with detailed instructions, going in this project was quite intimidating.

After a through examination of the final photos I can only say, Job well done, and you should be quite proud of yourself.

I was especially glad to see that you seized the opportunity and went the next step by replacing the GIP vent lines that were in the walls.

In fact, the only other thing that I can see that you might want to do is above and beyond your immediate project. In the photos there is a copper water line running right to left, then turning upwards on the left side. There should be a hanger on that pipe within 1' of the point where it turns upwards and every 48" on the horizontal run. I would suggest getting a roll of copper perf strap and install those hangers the next time you are working in that area.

Thanks for the suggestion on the hangers lazypup. I would do it were it not for the fact that the plumbing network is a mess so Im planning to replace all the pipes with PEX in the next couple of months. Most of the pipe network is 50y old galv (the copper line you see in the photo was probably a later addition). There is a lot of rust in my water, low dynamic pressure and most of the pipe joints also have rust on the outside. There are also a few copper to galv unions without dielectric. So its time to repipe !

but first I have to do some structural work in this same bathroom, old roof leak under previous owner has damaged the subfloor looks like Ill be posting soon at the home repair forum

Well, I did the other side of that combination T today. While this does not make me an expert, I thought Id pass along some possible tips

When drilling holes into the lead seal, I found it easier to first make small holes with a small drill bit. Then you can enlarge the smaller holes with a larger bit and, if the spacing of the holes is tight enough, the enlarged holes merge into each other (you can also wiggle the drill bit to merge the holes together).

After drilling holes in the lead, the galv stub turned quite easily using a pipe wrench and 2 extension. Then you can simultaneously use the pipe wrench and a pair of pliers. With the wrench you turn while, at the same time, you use the pliers to pull the stub out.

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