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bmh4796

Reason GC put in Delta valves when we specified Kohler Trim???

bridget helm
9 years ago

I am serving as the designer to the homeowners for a renovation guest house project. They have hired me to make most of the decisions. However, they have specified all Kohler plumbing from the very beginning. The house is around 25 years old.

For the shower downstairs we specified Kohler Pinstripe cross handle handheld showerhead and valve trim in Polished Nickel. For the shower upstairs, we specified Kohler Memoirs Cross handle valve trim in vibrant brushed bronze with a matching Kohler handheld and rain tile. This was given to the GC as well as his office manager in a spreadsheet with the model numbers in DECEMBER at his office manager's request.

Today I met with GC to discuss cabinets etc., and during the a walk through of one of the bathrooms, he nonchalantly told me that the plumber had to put in Delta valves due to water pressure, and that I'd have to pick out a Delta valve trim for the downstairs bath and a Delta trim and diverter for upstairs, but not to worry because the finishes are the same. So, I took it in stride until I got to the Delta showroom.

The lines of the Kohler pinstripe faucets do not coordinate with any of the Delta or Brizo collections. I am also worried about Kohler's vibrant brushed bronze not matching with Delta's champagne bronze.

Can you give me any reason as to why the GC would have HAD to use Delta valves?? Is he lying about the pressure? I can't tell you how many hours I have put into the faucet selections from the drain to the supply elbow. They coordinate with these moroccan beams that go across the ceiling and with the lines of other elements in the house. It's not just some plain old house. It has a presence with 20 foot wood windows and grand solid arched beams supporting the roof and wide cedar planked walls and ceilings with 2 wet bars and a 7 foot wide fireplace. It is a grand, beautiful home.

Am I overreacting? Because of the type of house it is and because the owners specified Kohler. I don't think I am. The problem is, I don't know how to fix it. Can the plumber take out the Delta valves and replace them with Kohler valves? Is there really a water pressure issue, that only Delta valves can "solve"?

This GC is supposed to be one of the best in town, but I feel like I'm being swindled by him.

Comments (20)

  • _sophiewheeler
    9 years ago

    Delta is cheap. Kohler is not. $$$$ difference pocketed.

  • jackfre
    9 years ago

    I think you can and should get your back up over this. If the plumber "had" to pick Delta for pressure reasons the time to have the conversation is when the valve bodies had to be roughed in. I just re-did my homes plumbing and used Kohler in most places. I'm in the business and have never heard of Delta delivering better pressure than Kohler.

    "Oops, sorry, just a small oversight on our part. You will overlook it riiiight? We did it for your own good."

    I'd bring the owner into this. I would not be defensive.

  • bridget helm
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks everyone. I told GC that I am having difficulties coordinating the collections in delta that are offered in similar Kohler colors/finishes with the lines/shape of the previously specified Kohler faucets. I was hoping to only change the valve trims and the diverter. There is a delta collection that coordinates ok with one of the bathrooms, but I can't find anything in polished nickel that works for the downstairs bath.

    So I asked him if it ABSOLUTELY has to be delta or brizo. He said to ask one of pluming showroom sales people. The only absolute he is giving me is that it has to fit 1/2" supply lines.

    So is it possible I can use another brand in the downstairs bath?

  • bridget helm
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    This is what has been installed. How big if a deal would it be for the plumber to put in Kohler valves? I'm assuming the builder made the mistake of not telling the plumber Kohler, and the builder doesn't want to pay plumber to fix. If that is the case, is the labor really costly to take out and change to Kohler? The materials are not for sure.

    I post more pics in another post. I don't know how to post more than one at a time

  • bridget helm
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    The number/ name in hose

  • bridget helm
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    The valve with the cover on

  • justalurker
    9 years ago

    You are making a mistake by trying to find a compromise.

    The owner specified Kohler.
    The plumber installed Delta
    There is only one solution... install kohler as specified.

    If the mistake was by the GC then the GC eats it.
    If the mistake was by the plumber then that's between the plumber and the GC. The GC contracted the plumber.

    If the plumber says the Kohler won't work then the time to mention that was BEFORE he installed the Delta and he had better come up with documentation that proves the Kohler won't work and he still shouldn't have made the change without notification and permission in writing..

  • bridget helm
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    the contractor is slooooooooow, so the homeowners are glad that he is working on the house again after it's been sitting for months. they are now worried that if we have the plumber change to kohler then the project will be held up even more.

    so how much work are we talking about here?

  • geoffrey_b
    9 years ago

    None of this is rocket science.

    Your pictures are 1/2" PEX tubing - all this 'stuff' is standard.

    IMO, you're being way to nice. Tell them you want the Kohler. If they say the Kohler won't work - have them supply documentation as to why it won't work.

    The GC is a jerk, and he's good at jerking people like you along.

  • gmatx zone 6
    9 years ago

    bmh4796 - Geoffrey_B and justalurker have laid out exactly what I also believe has happened and they have given you the best advice. If you stand up to the GC you will make yourself less stressed and maintain the trust of your client in you by having their request honored.

    Not getting the problem corrected can have a long term effect on your reputation as a designer. Let us know how it works out.

  • homebound
    9 years ago

    Yes, he's lying.

    Agree with above. You have been fed straight-up b.s. and now you have to be a hard @ss (stand your ground) and demand it gets done right. Who eats the extra labor is their tough problem, so stop trying to stand in their shoes. They have cast doubt in you (lying, frankly) and that is leading you down the path of "find solutions and compromise" for b.s. reasons. Force them to solve the problem that they created for themselves. Know a lawyer? Let them draft a friendly letter for you. "We wish to rectify this situation in a friendly manner...." Sincerely....Esquire.

    The ONLY reason to now leave it is would be that the owner wants to acquiesce and leave it - that's up to the owner. But you get $$$ back for that!

    I think the contractors are overtly taking advantage of your unfamiliarity with this process. Doing the work first, and they saying "by the way...??!!" B.S.!!! And if this happens to have a male/female dynamic, it can be all the more true, most unfortunately.

    Whatever the reason for the switch, this isn't the first time they tried it. That's for sure. Contractors are very well aware of the importance of fixture selection. Don't fall for the "there's no difference". I see plumbers that try to do this for toilets and tub drains too many times. You buy a Kohler tub and they try to install an old fashioned drain into it before anybody thinks about it - just so they can say "you should have told me". More b.s.

    This post was edited by homebound on Sat, Apr 19, 14 at 10:41

  • jakethewonderdog
    9 years ago

    Agree with everything said. This is total BS and is going to hurt your reputation.

    They are responsible for the delays also. They were given the spec'd list plenty of time in advance - they need to own all of this. Don't let blackmail you by telling you that it will delay the project. If they have to over-night the parts, work overtime, whatever... it's on them and that's a lot cheaper than charge backs to them because of delays they caused.

  • bridget helm
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    thanks everyone. I told the contractor that I was not going to mismatch the faucets, so asked if there was any way to switch to Kohler valves without it being a huge deal. He said as long as the valves fit 1/2" hoses. Kohler has valves that fit 1/2" hoses. I let him know this and he agreed to have the plumber change the valves to Kohler! Crazy how I stressed for 2 days over this, and in the end he acted like it was no big deal. :/

    I think he was hoping I'd make the Delta switch, but when he learned that I was not happy about it, he acted like changing to Kohler was no big deal. Which it isn't, but at first he wanted to act like it was just to keep things simple for him.

    Anyhow, the owners are VERY pleased, as am I. Thanks for your input!

  • justalurker
    9 years ago

    You stressed for two days and you still let the GC vary from the specified fixtures by downsizing the supply diameter.

    The GC wasn't hoping anything. He wanted to see how far he could push you for the next time. This kind of stuff gets around among tradespeople and you get a reputation as a pushover or harda$$.

    You should consider sticking to design and hiring someone to handle the contractors.

  • homebound
    9 years ago

    1/2" is probably going to be fine since they don't have any body sprays. Are you doing a single rain tile in place of the shower head, or four of them on the ceiling?

  • jakethewonderdog
    9 years ago

    Did I miss where the homeowner or designer specified the supply lines in the original fixtures (larger than 1/2").

    Look, it's not the designer or the homeowner's job to specify the size of the supply lines. That's the plumber's job to determine the proper size supply lines for the fixtures / application.

    bmh4796 - You have no obligation at all to consider what size the supply lines are that were just installed. In fact, you are taking on responsibility for something which you know nothing about if you do (no insult intended).

    Your job was to specify the fixtures - which you did in plenty of time. It's on the plumber to engineer the plumbing to work with the specified fixtures and it's the GC's job to make sure it goes correctly.

    If you had issued a change order after the rough in, all of the resulting changes to supply lines would be on you and the owner. You didn't do that. The plumber / GC screwed up. They have to put in the correct fixtures and make any changes to the supply lines to accommodate those fixtures.

  • Vancouver Owner-Builder
    7 years ago

    My comment comes a little late, but speaking from a homeowner's perspective, and after having spent probably 50 hours researching all of the possible fixture options and carefully selecting my Kohler Brushed Bronze fixtures for the master ensuite, the thought of having to switch out my valve trim for a Brizo would have made me extremely unhappy. I am very glad you were able to get them to install matching Kohler for your clients :)

  • HU-200322420
    4 years ago

    Just signed up now. Iam a plumber and that is total BS. most residential shower roughin valves are 1/2 “compatible. If not use a reducer before the valve. And I know for a fact as I have installed hundreds of Kohler shower valves that they come in 1/2”. Iam absolutly not a fan of Kohler bathroom fixtures in general especially there shower valve. The carridges for shower valves change multiple times for same trim. They don’t want there replacemnt parts copied so they keeeeep changing them. just my two cents years later

  • HU-418883882
    last year
    last modified: last year

    Seems strange to me that the plumber used AquaPEX with a crimp fitting rather than using the expansion connection it was designed for. The plumber was probably a bit inexperienced and therefore less expensive for the GC. He also might have only installed delta shower valves since they are the most common and are generally very good.