Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
vgking

Opinions of Epoxy for copper pipes?

vgkg Z-7 Va
16 years ago

Hi folks,

I'm coming here a day late and a dollar short but here it goes.

The hot water line coming out of my hot water heater cracked open just 2 mintues before I went to bed Thursday nite (a lucky guy here as the "shower noise" was impacting under the steps as I was going upstairs to bed, otherwise it would have flooded all nite long, I shudder to think...). I immediately turned off the incoming cold water before things got soggy and needed to fix this pronto the next day. I'm pretty handy with fix-it stuff but not experienced yet with soldering copper pipes so at Lowes I picked up all the copper pipe/parts I needed and opted for the 2-tube copper pipe epoxy for the repair job. This stuff claims to be good for cold & Hot applications so I'm just wondering what you experts think of it for the short/long term?

After 3 days it's looking good, no leaks. In about 3 years from now I will replace all the house plumbing & this aging water heater as well and am just hoping this patch-up job will last until that time. Any opinions are appreciated (sorry I can't recall the brand name of the epoxy, it's that 2-tube injection mix stuff. Many thanks, vgkg

Comments (86)

  • bob_cville
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Fixizin,

    Its not hypothetical at all. Its called a water neutralizer. I have one installed in my water system. Its about 12 inches in diameter and about 5 feet tall, and basically it is filled with either large sand sized particles of marble (CaCO3) or a mixture of CaCO3 and magnesium (IIRC) depending of the pH of the water.

    Furthermore you are right that it is essentially a water hardener. My untreated water is something like 6.0 pH and 0 grains per gallon. After the neutralizer the pH is about 7.1 (os so) and 7 grains per gallon.

    Some of the copper pipes that I have removed that have been there since before the neutralizer was in place have walls so thin that I can crush the pipe flat with my fingers. Scary.

    -Bob

  • bjj2000
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is a little off topic, but I have a slightly different question about replumbing and epoxy. I have been thinking of replumbing my home, but am put off by the immensity of the undertaking. I was researching the topic on the internet and came upon the company Curaflo. They advocate lining your old pipes with epoxy. I was pretty impressed with what I read. They offer a ten year warranty--including damage caused by any leak--and appear to be a national chain. They have done some large commercial jobs. There are quite a few links concerning this process. The homepage of the company is:

    http://www.curaflo.com/CuraFlo

    I was wondering if any of you knowledgable folk had an opinion on this.

    bj

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bj, that was an interesting site/read. If you get an estimate on pricing your home's plumbing job via this company do let us know. What I hope to do in 2-3 years is to install PEX myself but your way sounds much easier :) but just wondering about the cost?

  • patfro
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    vgkg - No matter what you have been told my the DIY guys, you will regret using an epoxy. I have personally gone out on numerous emergency service calls fixing epoxy repairs. "But Mr. plumber, the package said it would work!"

  • bjj2000
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    vgkg,

    I am seriously thinking of moving forward on this. If I do, I will let you know what the estimate is. They say it is less than traditional plumbing and better, but it is not a do it yourself option. There appear to be three main companies doing this work, but I can only remember Curaflo and Duraflo. The third company has done a lot of work for the U.S. Navy, The Navy has used the epoxy lining on the duct work in ships to protect them from the caustic seawater. They have also used it in their shore facilities. If I come across that link again, I will post it here. I am still busy reading everything about the process that I can find.

    bj

  • cjccmc
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hello VeggieKing,

    I remember you from my days at the Tomato forum. Hope you have been well.

    All I can tell you is that I repaired a leaky radiator on my 1976 Pinto with epoxy. It held for years, actually outlasted the car itself. I don't need to tell you what all the "experts" thought of it at the time.

    While the pro plumbers made some good points above, here are some I see on the other side of the coin:

    1. You bought a product from a reputable retailer that is specifically designed for your purpose.

    2. You likely put more care and skill into using it than the average user.

    3. You watched it for several days and no leaks. It is apparently working. There is no credible data that suggests the repair will deteriorate significantly in the 3 years you need it to last.

    4. It is only one of hundreds of possible leak points that could develop in your (or anyones) aged plumbing system.

    5. Every plumbing problem I've ever had in my home came from "code approved" materials and processes that were installed by professional plumbers. They are not sacred.

    6. In the big scheme of things it's just one tiny risk among the many we face everyday (like driving to work).

    Sleep well!

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Conrad, nice to "see" you again too. It's rare that I visit the Tomato forum these daze. Thanks for the input, the epoxy fix is still dry as a bone here after 1 month (seems much longer, only ~24-35 months to go - ha!) so I am sleeping well now. Good Gardening to ya!

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bumping this one back up again to make an addition comment. No, the epoxy repair job has not failed (yet). I've come back to say that last week the incoming cold water pipe to my old water heater sprung a leak, it was the pipe right next to the outgoing hot water pipe that I epoxied 3 months ago. Luckily it was a slow drip and I just happened to peek into the WH closet and found it. Since I still had the epoxy supplies on hand I went ahead and fixed it in the same manner. After one week it looks as good as the other quick fix. Now if only these two fixes (and the rest of the plumbing) will hold on for another 2 years :o)

  • joereal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The Copper-Bond Adhesive meets the potable water requirement, it is rated for such application. If this is not true, the company making this would have been sued by now, and the class action lawsuit attorneys would have been millionaires. So I believe that their statement in the label that it can be used for potable water is certifiable and true, and if you don't think that it is so, you can become a millionaire by suing them. Perhaps they have been sued, but the plaintiffs lost and so the product is still happily in the market.

    It really works! I've tried other adhesives such as those for Just-for-copper brands, but the one shown by vgkg is the one to buy.

    I helped a friend setup a distiller to extract oils and essences from lemon grass, also for water purification. We have a reflux condenser column made of 3" copper. Because of the rough handling of their travel, the solder always cracks and develop leaks. We have repaired the pipes several times and because of frequent assembly and disassembly, it always developed cracks and leaks at the solder joint and we have tried several types of solder already to no avail. So we tried the Just-for-copper bond but that one quickly melted away when the temperature on the pipe got too hot, like around 325 deg F, the temperature of the oil that we sometimes process. Then we tried the Copper-Bond adhesive with skepticism, but this one survived the 325 deg F temperature. Todate, more than a couple years, there is not a leak on the reflux column. It's strength is superior as it is not prone to cracking due to metal fatigue when there is alternating high and low temperature combined with mechanical stresses that is the main weakness of sweat solder joints.

    Last weak, my other friend tried to install a water softener. It is almost impossible to solder in a very tight place without dismantling the wall, but somehow we managed to solder the elbow that is going up. But everytime we connect the softener itself (the plastic plug-in adapter at the back) we need to lift the softener up, align the adapter and place them in, but in so doing, it disturbs the elbow down below. Then the soldered elbow develop crack at the joint and it leaks. We retried the solder method, and it took us about the whole weekend and have to retry 3 times with the same related problem.

    Then I remembered my left-over Copper-bond adhesive from 2-years ago which I stashed inside two layers of ziploc bags. So we removed those soldered elbow fittings, bought a new set of fittings cleaned them up and then used the Copper-bond adhesive that is about a couple years old. And it is still pliable and usable. So we used that, then connect to the water softener, and no leaks! We have to disconnect and reconnect the water softener several times for other unrelated pipe problems with the elbow suffering from various mechanical stresses, and still no leaks!

    Although I love to solder a lot as I really don't like to use glue (gets messy on me all the time), I would use that product again in tight spots. It is even rated for fire sprinkler system application.

    I would make it the greatest copper, brass epoxy of them all for the same price range.

    If you think that the product is not safe for water and you have verifiable scientific data to back it up, then you can be a millionaire by filing a lawsuit against the manufacturer. This is a country driven by frivolous lawsuit mostly, so if the company has survived it, then it must be true that it is suited safe for potable water use.

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Joe, thanks for the info on the high temp as it is the epoxied hot water pipe that worries me the most. Seeing as how my hot water is around 125F (or so) your 325F makes mine look like kool-ade. Also glad to know that it holds up well under flexing and movement as my well pump tends to make the pipes rattle at times too.

  • joereal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're welcome Veggie King!

    This morning, I learned from my friend that the water softener passed the city's inspection with flying colors. He checked the code ratings of the product and including usage for potable water and approved it. The city engineer actually flexed the softener so as to stress the tubings and then checked to see if there are cracks or leaks in the joints, and found not a single drop!

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    UPdate :

    Well after one full year the epoxied connections are still holding up well, no leaks etc. All I ask for is just one more year until I replace all the cooper pipes with PEX or similar product. Fingers crossed :)

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm Baaaack! :)

    Just thought that you guys & gals could use a good laugh today. No, the 2 epoxy fixes that I did last year haven't failed (yet), but yesterday I found a leak in the ceiling right under the upstairs bathroom floor - UGH! When I got home around 4:30 nothing was amiss, but about an hour later the water was trickling down the wall and dripping through the ceiling plaster. It looked as if it had just started as the floor was dry and the wall was only half trickled down. After checking the upstairs bathroom and seeing it was dry I immediately laid out a tarp downstairs and hammered out a sq ft of ceiling to see what's up. A pinhole leak was found right in the middle of a "T" copper connection where the bathroom sink and toilet share a cold water line - UGH! again.

    After shutting off the water (which isn't easy to do in this old house, on well water) I realized that this won't be an easy job to fix. The pipe is so close to the surrounding wood that a tube cutter cannot fit around the pipe at any of the 3 angles. A mini-hacksaw isn't any help either due to the tight space. So, you can probably already guess what I did. Yep, after drying and cleaning up the T fitting (brushed the copper shinny all around the pinhole) I used the epoxy to coat the "T" all around the outside surface outside and tried to force some into the tiny pinhole as a plug. Once it "set" I turned the water back on and it didn't leak. This morning it was still dry, no drips. A temp fix at best I know.

    Here's my questions for you smart folks, and any guesses are Welcome and Appreciated.

    1) Is there any tool or method available to cut out the "T" in this tight space? I believe that it could be heated up and removed once the old solder melted, is that right? I'm reluctant to do this due to the wood location and I cannot apply flame to all sides of the "T" but only 1 side. But if this would work is there a way to protect the wood from the flame?

    2) My plans haven't changed as I will replace the whole house plumbing in about 6 months from now. Anyone care to guess if this quick epoxy fix would last until then? One saving grace of this house (in this case it's a grace) is that the water pressure ranges from 23 - 42 psi (tops) and I could stop that leak with one finger. The epoxy is as hard as nails so will not dissolve away and hopefully not be undermined over time.

    Now ya see, I knew you'd get a chuckle out of this ;o)

  • davidro1
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    When existing methods work well, all new methods go through a long period of time when they are not trusted.

    It happened to copper too. For years it was deemed new and experimental.

    To answer the original question, sometime within the average lifespan of the average reader we will know how well epoxy works to seal pressurized copper over the long term. Today we may hear of people with installations that succeeded so far or that failed, and then... whether or not the failure was due to this or that will be hard to determine over the internet or with eyeballs on site.

    David

  • fixizin
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    V-king, thanks for all the updates, and even though I'm Mr. Sweat-Solder, I'm glad the epoxy method you're comfortable with is working out.

    And if other posters didn't make it clear, allow me:

    0) Is this epoxy you like "Copper-Bond" brand by Noble, aka "the Original Super-Glue Corporation"?

    1) YOU NEED A WATER *(pH)NEUTRALIZER* like YESTERDAY! Certainly you need to have it installed between your well and potable water entrance before you spend a penny on ANY NEW plumbing! Re-read posts about how PEX systems still include vulnerable metal fittings.

    2) Should read the link above about copper-poisoning, then... GET THAT NEUTRALIZER, like YESTERDAY! LOL...

    As for heat-shielding to protect wood/drywall/etc. from the torch flame, I like using a thin piece of Hardi-plank; it's made of lightwt. concrete, so it's pretty much impervious to a propane flame, at least for the short periods req'd.

    If you have a space that's SO tight/convoluted that you need a FABRIC type heat shield, I believe they are available from plumbing supply shops... can't remember the trade name. Alternately, you could use some sheet metal.

    I could NEVER sleep in your "time bomb" situation, knowing every time I wake up or come home, $12k in damage could be waiting for me. <:o i guess have a whole-house ball valve and it shut off most of the time.>

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Davidro1 & Fixizin !
    Thanks a bunch for the feedback. Yes it does seem that I am "the experiment" for this crazy @ss scheme but for the time being I have little choice but to do what I have done. You are so right David that time will tell and all I'm asking father time for is about 6-8 more months at most for this obviously flawed and temporary fix. As mentioned previously the 2 fixed on the water heater have held up well for the past year or so and I'm not really worried about them. And so far it's only been 1 week but the other epoxyed quick fix hasn't leaked a drop (knock-on-wood) as the ceiling hole is still exposed and I'm watching it closely. If it does fail it'll most like be a slow drip for a while so it'll be easy to catch early. I will do some cosmetics for that area and install a make shift trough to funnel any drips from that T fitting to an easy to detect spot. Hopefully it'll hold until next summer when I can rip it all out to replace whole house.

    Thanks too Fixizin for the tips on soldering in tight spaces and the warnings about metal fitting in replubing with pex or similar product. Our well pH is 6 which isn't too bad but bad enough. The present copper plumbing was installed about 30 years ago and as you well know it's the joint fitting like the T and L turns that go first. The interior of the present pipes look good and still thick and I can read "L" as to the better thickness on them (is it really true that the joint fittings are all "M", the thinner pipe?). If so who's bright idea was that?

    I will look into a neutralizing unit for sure. And don't get me wrong, by using this expoxy quick fix I surely ain't knocking solder! If I were to change my mind and go with whole house copper then solder/sweating is definitely the way to Go!
    BTW - yes, it is the Noble brand of copper bond expoxy, and I'm guessing that it has many years to go as the jury is still out for it's long term effectiveness, but I ain't gonna be the lab rat on these temp fixes but for a few more months ;o)

    As for copper poisoning, we have continuously used one of those Brita-type carbon filters at the sink for any drinking purposes. And yes, I know what you mean about sleeping at nite, so far someone up there likes me and if the remaining fittings throughout the house can just hold on for a few more months.......

  • neville_newman_yahoo_com
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have a copper Tee "in the ground". It is inside a buried sprinkler box, but it collects mud and roots and has to get cleaned out every year or two. The Tee is one year old and has sprung a pinhole leak on an inside radius.

    The box contains a ball valve and drain for one of the city water supply lines for my house (splits into 3 downstream of the water meter, and each feed into the house has its own shutoff): 3/4 inch ball valve, followed by a Tee that has a draincock so the house lines can be drained. The pinhole leak is on one inside radius on the side of the Tee, where the draincock is sweated on. Just over one year ago, I cut out the original assembly and built/installed a new one, as the original valve handles and stems were badly rusted away. I sweated the assembly in the kitchen, and then did the 2 end joints below ground. The Tee and draincock are turned to be horizontal, so the bottom of the drain is below the bottom of the feed. It was the first copper plumbing work I'd done in decades, but it held.

    Recently, when I needed to rebuild a leaking bathroom faucet, we went to turn off this valve and found the box full of water and (after bailing and turning the supply back on) found the leak.

    This box is in close quarters in a flowerbed, and of course the box itself doesn't leave much room to work. I turned off the feed valve, opened the draincock, shut off the inlet to the WH, and opened the inside faucets to allow all the water to drain out. Two plumber friends told me that they had fixed these in the field by soldering over the hole. FWIW, I also wondered if I could have created the problem when I built the assembly, but they both said it was likely a defective fitting.

    We cleaned the problem area of the Tee, but I couldn't get any solder to adhere, so I think we probably didn't get it clean enough and we need to do it again. There is also so much standing on my head involved that I don't want to be making attempt after attempt at this.

    So... If this is really a matter of just cleaning more carefully and it should be solder-repairable, then I'll give it another go. But, if a solder repair would be considered questionable anyway, I think I'd like to try Epoxy before I move on to digging out the box and cutting out the assembly. (I did not originally leave enough pipe between the valve and the Tee to just cut out the Tee - I'll have to rebuild that side). What do you gentlemen have to say?

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hell-o again folks - long time no see.

    At the library today (no internet at home now) and thought that I'd dig up this old thread and give you all an update. The 3+ year old (now) epoxy fixings are still holding up a-ok even though I have fallen a bit behind on my plans to replace all of the old copper with pex. That project is now planned for next spring. I did do another epoxy "fix" in the crawlspace under the kitchen area last year, it was a slow drip that I discovered accidently when under there for other matters. This drip was apparently from a copper pipe that was previously frozen as it had a slight bulge and crack in it.

    So, just a quick hello and update to let you know it's still working after 3 years.
    Hope all is well with the rest of you.

    Chow fer now, vgkg

  • lonewoof
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wish you luck with your epoxy patch, but I have my doubts.
    About 3 years after I bought my house, the annual termite inspection reported "water on wood under bathroom". I investigated, and found, sure enough, water dripping from the subfloor. I removed a section of drywall and found the leak; the previous owner had remodeled the bathroom and either (1) attached an angle fitting on copper pipe, or (2) repaired a leak at that angle fitting, with epoxy. The epoxy did not stand up, and eventually leaked.
    I removed the fitting, cleaned it and the pipe ends, and sweat-soldered it. That was 24 years ago. Still holding tight.

  • texmln_yahoo_com
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    For the benefit of vgkg, I used the very same Copper Bond purchased at Lowes eleven years ago to make pretty much the same types of repairs you made on your water heater. In my case I moved my water heater from smack in the middle of the attic to a spot closer to the side to provide more storage room. I had never used Copper Bond but decided to test it out since the water heater was in an easily accessible walk-in an attic above my garage. All the joints are exposed and easily acessible, plus even a catastrophic failure wouldn't be likely to do a large amount of damage in that location. After eleven years I am now replacing the water heater but the Copper Bond has peformed flawlessly and was used on several joints for hot, cold, and T&P runoff. I should also note that several of the joints are copper to brass.

    Five years after that original repair I used Copper Bond to replace the valve box for the washer in my laundry room. The SOLDERED cold water joint had failed only six years after original construction. My epoxy fix is now six years old and going strong. Again, a leak in the laundry room wouldn't be a killer for me.

    So, my experience has been good and I would certainly be comfortable using epoxy in pretty much any situation. I'm happy to sweat joints too but I trust the epoxy just as much. Like anything, a lot of it depends on the care you use putting the joint together and whether you properly prepare the joint and follow the epoxy instructions.

  • mistrcrvr_msn_com
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I used epoxy to do an entire section of my house and it has lasted over 14 years. It is the same brand as shown, Copper Bond. Also, for those who don't "believe" in the epoxy repair as opposed to sweating a joint, consider this, I am a stone mason and we routinely put stones and anchors in place (some have been overhead) with epoxy and in the 40 years I have been using it I have never had a failure. Started using Fasco #2 about 20 years ago and now use it for everything. Sweating a joint is good but epoxy is just as good.

  • brickeyee
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "...we routinely put stones and anchors in place (some have been overhead) with epoxy and in the 40 years I have been using it I have never had a failure. "

    You should advise the Boston 'big dig.'

    They have already killed one person.

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Folks!
    I've been away for a while since posting this thread, thanks to ALL for your feedback on expoxy experiences. Just too update you on my experience - my epoxied fixes have done well over the past 4 years with no leaks or other failures. My plans to replumb the entire house system have been on hold while I'm working on an addition to the house. I pexed the addition (laundry room, full bath, and mini-kitchen) and it was fairly easy to do, once done I'll pex the rest of the house and rip out the old copper along with the expoxied parts.

    So in summary, no expoxy problems on my end, and 2 of these expoxy fixes were just plugging pin hole leaks (not recommended!!!), but they are holding a-ok after 4 years. Should have new pex installed by the end of this year....I hope :)
    Chow fer now, vgkg

  • davelux
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks vgkg for following up on a regular basis.

    I remodeled my main bathroom in July 2007 and re-worked a bit of the plumbing while I was at it. I used solder/flux for most of the joints, but for a couple that would have been near impossible to do w/o burning the house down, I opted for the epoxy. I too found it at Lowes next to the regular soldering supplies. I was a little apprehensive at first so I waited a week or two to put up the backer board, all the while leaving the water pressure on full (with a plug where the shower goes, of course).

    Here I am almost 4 1/2 years later with no leaks and no problems. Just wanted to throw my experience out there for any other curious DIYers.

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're welcome Dave. Glad you brought this back up because over the next month I will be replacing (FINALLY) the old copper pipes in the old home. As of this date I have 7 epoxy "fixes" on the old pipes. No doubt the copper is like tin foil in some spots so I can't put this off any longer. A lucky dog I have been as each leak has been caught early without any damage. I highly recommend those leak detectors one can buy at home improvement stores, easy to place next to any questionable pipe areas for early detection. The new plumbing will be pexed just like the addition I built. Chow

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just one final update on this saga.....

    After almost 5 years now the several epoxy "fixes" have held their ground and no leaks have occurred, and over time this has amounted to 8 fixed leaks with epoxy. If my timing goes well all my old copper pipes will be replaced with pex (after years of delay) by the end of the week....a solo job with wife's help...and patience :)
    My daze with epoxy are over, it served me well...the end.

  • mikewax
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    another perfect example of the value of conventional wisdom and "expert" opinion.
    notice that at first you got way more answers from the "expert"s than actual testimony, all of them saying that it doesn't work and it's toxic and blah blah blah. only ONE of them offered any actual experience of epoxy plumbing, and that was of repairing work that other people had done.
    and none of them bothered to reply to any of the genuine testimonials you received.
    plumbers in particular are very good at lying to customers just to make more money. i heard one plumber say that Drano will actually solidify inside and CLOG up the pipes.

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ha, you never know what's gonna pop up in the in-box, thought this thread wouldn't be resurrected. But since I'm here, update --- my pexing job turned out very nicely, no leaks or problems after 8 months. Easy to do except in tight spots, as is everything. Happy plumbing to all.

  • surfnsfari
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    vgkg

    I think you were ahead of your time. I couldn't help but laugh at all the naysayers that were mocking your for using epoxy.
    Our neighborhood has had a rash of plumbing leaks. The plumber thinks it is due to all the chemicals the government mandates to treat our water that wasn't the case years ago.
    He offers to replumb the whole house with PEX or to coat the whole copper system with epoxy. The cost is about the same, a little more for the PEX because of all the dry wall r&r. He said with an existing copper system the epoxy coating is the only sure way to prevent leaks. It's becoming more popular all the time and is well established.

  • rmknox
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks so much for your post
    I just discovered it at the time that I'm leaving copper for Pex
    But for my probably final copper connection - it solved a big problem
    Vertical line to hot water heater. Starts at ceiling and goes down. I soldered on a ball valve shutoff - no problem. Then when I tried to solder the length of pipe below it I got a bad joint. Broke when I tested it. Tried 3 times - same problem..Joint was not getting hot enuf to suck up enuf solder. Maybe 1/8 inch of connection - no strength. Same no matter how long I kept the torch on it and of course line was empty - no water above.
    Tried this copper bond epoxy - 100% success first time - and so easy to use.

    After the fact I think that the problem was that heat was being conducted up the pipe above the valve and valve takes a lot of heat to make it hot - unlike a simple coupling.

    I now realize I probably could have done the job having my wife hold my second torch above the valve - and thus blocking the heat leak - but anyway - the epoxy worked great and thanks so much!

  • brickeyee
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "genuine testimonials"

    Because those are such a reliable way of evaluating plumbing methods.

    I hear all the testing labs actually use them instead of pressure tests, repeated thermal cycles, and accelerated aging methods to determine long term reliability.

    After all, it is just a pressurized residential water line.

    How much damage could it do if it fails?

  • gardenerlorisc_ia
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just had to pop in with a comment on the epoxies. I used the kind in the 2 tubes that you knead together about 10 years ago or so to fix a leak out of a pipe where the water from the well about 75 feet away came through ( so a pipe within the other pipe).

    That epoxy did such a great job that the water coming into the basement backed up the pump casing and caused a nice skating pond on the driveway downhill from where the pump casing was. It happened in the middle of a MN winter so we had to have a backhoe and plumber out to replace that pipe.

    But the epoxy held!!!

  • Felipe Felipe
    8 years ago

    Nobody's responded in 8 years ! Either you drowned in water from failed epoxy joints or it worked. I suspect the latter. I was surprised to see so many folks dismiss epoxy out of hand without having used it and suggesting anybody who uses it risking the health of their family. Firstly, there's no evidence that any epoxy residue leaching into the water supply is any more toxic than leaching solder residue. There are plenty of pipe joints (eg., between shower mixed and showerhead) that are not upstream of drinking water outlets). Secondly, many folks responded with something like "get over your fear of soldering, it's easy" like soldering pipes is some kind of fraternity hazing ritual LOL. I've sweated 100s of joints. I don't like soldering. Why not? There's alot of cleanup. Burned skin. Not feasible in some difficult-to-access locations, a fire hazard in wood-framed buildings. Generally a hassle. I've used epoxy (both the 5-minute and 24-curing epoxies) for both copper-to- copper and copper-to-brass joints with both water and gas lines over the past 10 years. I've not yet had any problems with failed joints (which I did have occasionally with soldered/sweated joints).

    My 2 cents' worth ....

  • bg_101
    8 years ago

    vgkg, THANK YOU!

    My 4 year old hot water heating system developed a pin hole. It turns out that a finishing nail had been driven through the overlying baseboard and squarely penetrated the 3/4" copper pipe. It took 4 years for galvanic action to reduce the size of the nail enough that the pipe started leaking through the hole.
    I would love to solder a plug into the hole except:

    1. I can't drain the water out of the pipe without cutting it.

    2. I would have to open up large chunks of two finished walls to put in couplers.

    3. One of the walls is filled with spray urethane insulation which gives off cyanide gas when it burns.

    Thanks to your testimony -- and more important, your follow up -- I'll be trying the epoxy fix.

    BTW, homebound, the chewing gum wrap comment made me LOL. :-)

  • Felipe
    8 years ago

    You're welcome. I've just finished another project where I had to use epoxy (I say "had to use" because I have nothing against using it everywhere but I prefer to conform to plumbing codes when possible/feasible) and it's worked out fine.


    With regard to your leak, I would recommend (if you have feasible access) placing an adjustable hose clip around the pipe and tightening it over the uncured epoxy that you use to block your leak. The reason is that unless you "bind" the repair in some way (and a hose clip is one of the easiest), you will have alot of outward pressure from the hole and no support for the epoxy so you run the risk of the epoxy being "blown outward" at some point if there's any point of weakness in the adhesion (caused by less-than-clean surfaces, for example. The kind of clip I'm talking about is the kind that has ratchet that you can tighten with a screwdriver - they used to be very common to attach garden hoses to sprinklers and faucets but, with snap-on connectors, they're less common these days .... Good luck!

  • kudzu9
    8 years ago

    I'm sure a well-done epoxy repair will hold for a while...years, in fact. But I don't want to repair anything involving water under pressure with a method that requires me to check on it periodically. Epoxy and copper are dissimilar materials, with different coefficients of expansion and different physical properties, which means that over time they are a weak spot. However, if you are comfortable doing something with your home plumbing that: 1) doesn't pass code, and 2) may void an insurance claim, that's your business.

  • bg_101
    8 years ago

    kudzu9, Thanks for expressing your concerns. The system is low pressure: ~15 psi and low volume: ~1/2 gallon in the expansion tank. In the worst case scenario, I get a puddle on the laundry room tile floor. Oh, and the nail hole is <1/16" giving a total outward pressure of < 1 oz.

    One has to weigh the costs and benefits of each approach. If this doesn't work, the next step is wrapping it in neoprene and applying hose clamps.

    While epoxy has a coefficient of thermal expansion approximately 3x that of copper, its elasticity will more than make up for the difference over the system working range of 60-120 degrees F, provided that it adheres well.

  • Sherwood Botsford (z3, Alberta)
    8 years ago

    I get some chuckles out of these, and based on this thread, I will do my patch with the epoxy.

    In my situation, I have a shutoff valve in my basement for the hot water line to the bathroom. The present leak is at about 6 drops per minute. The location is easy to check, indeed, if it doesn't work, I step into the puddle.

    The alternative is to cut the valve out, and then replace with a new valve, a chunk of pipe, and a connector, plus all the hassle of shutting down the water system, and draining the line.

    ***

    As a non-professional plumber a couple of tips to other non-pros.

    A: Make your plumbing accessible. I recently did a tiled shower. On the back of the wall I have to access panels, done with cabinet doors from Habitat for Humanity's Re-Store. (I use this technique also for mounting bathroom fans so that the fan can be easily replace 10-15 years from now.


    B: Anytime you alter something, add a shut off valve in an easy to get to spot. If you altered it once, someone else will need to change something later. As an amateur everything takes 3 times as long as it would a pro, and all too often takes at least one extra trip to the hardware store. Being able to leave part of the house functional while the other part is under repair is a big win.


    C: Plan for breaking/modification/expansion. Try to avoid putting in long runs that have to be soldered in linear order. I have on a few occasions deliberately put a zig-zag in a run so that later I would have that half inch of play to put in a connection. I've also deliberately put a T and a capped stub instead of a right angle elbow. I can cut the cap off to drain the line to solder, and replace the cap. Or that becomes the expansion where I add the line for the new outside faucet. Soldering is fast. Unsoldering is a PITA.

    ***

    On Standards:

    Read them. Understand them. Never disregard them casually. But they weren't handed down from God. There are still failures in perfectly done jobs using code certified materials. There are more failures if not perfectly done, or using questionable materials. Make your judgement

    Buildings, especially houses, are not built to be maintained. As far as possible you want to do something once, then never again, but I've gotten away with things that were not standard practice:

    * I've done 3 ceramic tile floors now using OSB as subfloor instead of plywood. In my reading I found that OSB is made to different standards for different uses, and that generally it runs to a better grade here in Canada. I used 3/4" sanded face OSB usually used for subfloor or roofing deck, then primed it with 2 coats of white primer paint to reduce the interaction of caustic mortar and the wood fibers. All three floors are fine.

    * By our electrical code top and bottom outlets in a duplex fixture in a kitchen need to come off of separate breakers. The explanation for this is that people often use heavy power demand appliances in clusters. I wanted all my outlets, not just the ones near the sink to be GFI protected. Can't split the outlet. Easy: I put in twice as many outlets as code required. This kept the spirit of the rules and allowed me to use 6 GFI outlets instead of 3 20A GFI breakers -- big saving.

    I'm fortunate to live in a jurisdiction where the insurance companies can't deny coverage because you did it yourself. If I make a mistake felling a tree, and smash my garage, I'm still covered.


  • Felipe
    8 years ago

    As a footnote, we in north America may be out on a limb with epoxy joints not being code-approved. In New Zealand, it's the most common way of sealing copper joints. I just returned to the U.S. from a trip to South Africa where it's similarly in common use.

    As an aside, for those who would much prefer being blasted into the wall by their shower for a blissful 90 seconds than standing for 20 minutes under a dribbling flow and are sufficiently sick of federal water saving rules that don't take such personal differences into account in mandating the 2.5gpm flow rate for all shower-related fittings that a 12,000 mile plane trip would present only a small obstacle: There is hope. In South Africa you can buy beautiful 1/2" chrome-plated valves and other shower accessories whose water flows are unhindered by US federal regulations.

  • Toni Spiers Solomon
    7 years ago

    wow this made my day ... After finding are home flooded with sewer water and then getting every thing ripped out and redone ,,, after we started to put things back in we found a wet spot on the new carpet in the office .... so had the guys remove the new drywall from the floor up to about 3 feet thinking they hit a pipe with a nail , or a screw ... nope was the the main copper pipe drain for upstairs bathroom ,, cut out higher and found the leak in a elbow joint ,, in a very hard place to fix ,,,, so went out and got the ep-200 epoxy putty ,,, cleaned up the joint really good then applied the epoxy .... been 2 days and still holding ... so this gives me hope ... until i can get it fixed ..

  • Philip Hull
    7 years ago

    What do you mean "until I can get it fixed ..."? Sounds like it IS fixed!!!!

  • Toni Spiers Solomon
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Yes it is ,, meant to say waiting a week to put drywall back up and then we are done..lol

  • HU-648707386
    4 years ago

    Several years late to this party but just had to add this. I used the original Copper Bond in 1988 to replumb my entire house (all under the house in the open crawl space, with verticals up to each fixture) and not only has it stood up for 30+ years with no leaks, it was blasted by a storm surge (Hurricane Hugo, 1989) 8 feet high and that didn't damage it at all (but forced leaves up through holes for the electrical wires and into the walls). I'm rearranging the bathroom and kitchen and want to use copper pipe and Copper Bond but cannot find even the newer Super Glue version of it and am wondering why; has a newer product replaced it? I'd appreciate some suggestions.

  • Jake The Wonderdog
    4 years ago

    " I'd appreciate some suggestions"


    Learn to solder joints. Seriously. No plumber installs copper plumbing with glue.




  • kudzu9
    4 years ago

    Agree with Jake. I don't care if you had good luck with it before. Gluing copper pipes together is an accident waiting to happen. Sweat soldering is faster, cheaper, and it's permanent.

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Just checking into my old, very old, thread. When I started this thread it was to show how I used copperbond epoxy to repair a few copper pipes which gave me some time (even a few years) to replace all the pipes later. Like others have said it's not a good idea to install new plumbing with it, it's just a temp fix at best. But PEX is the way to go, no more copper for me, esp when one is on well water.

  • kudzu9
    3 years ago

    vgkg- Given the problems you've had, PEX may very well be your best option. However, given the documented problems with PEX springing leaks due to rats, mice, and Western Conifer Seed Bugs chewing on it, I'm sticking with copper. ;-)

  • vgkg Z-7 Va
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    So far kudzu9 after 10 years with the PEX there haven't been any rodent or bug chewing problems. When I installed the PEX (so easy even I could do it ;-) I also installed several water alarms in the crawlspace just in case my job was leaky down the road. So far so good, and thankfully no rodents (other than outside squirrels) are around here to crew up stuff. Thx for the tip on the WCSBs, will keep and eye out for those and will bomb the crawlspace when needed.

  • kudzu9
    3 years ago

    vgkg- The problems with PEX don't happen with most people, but I have seen rodents chew on various plastics enough that it would be a concern for me. I've never had a problem with copper in 45+ years of home ownership, so that's my preference, but I understand why PEX would be attractive for your situation. :-)