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Water Softener Sizing Round 2

Posted by ribs1 (My Page) on
Sun, Feb 12, 12 at 17:16

Hello Everyone,
I have finished collecting all the information I hope I need to properly size a water softener

SFR = 13.55 (I measured this at the hose bib in the softener room using the method described on the budget water website)

These are the tests results from the health department. All are ppm
Chloride 26
Flouride .37
Hardness as CaCO3 370 (21.6 gpg)
Iron 1.8
Sodium 9
Sulfate 76
Manganese <.05
PH 7.6
Bacteria, nitrates, nitrites etc. are all 0

We have 2 adults and 2 kids.

I am considering using an Iron filter (terminox or filox) in addition to the softener even though my iron is low for the following reasons.
1. The iron filters don't use salt and using it would allow me to use a smaller more efficient softener.
2. I may start keeping aquarium fish again. I used to breed African Cichlids and they like hard water, but not iron. If I had the iron filter I would have plumbing after the iron filter but before the softener for the fish.

Am I crazy for using an iron filter with only 1.8ppm of Iron? I don't mind paying extra money now for long term salt savings but wondering if this is a good idea.

Thanks


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Water Softener Sizing Round 2

"SFR = 13.55 (I measured this at the hose bib in the softener room using the method described on the budget water website)"

Is that procedure is telling you that you have 13.55 gpm SFR? What size is the plumbing (pipes)? Try just filling a gallon bucket at that hose bib and see how many seconds it takes to put a gallon in the bucket This is an important number and has great effect on correct soften sizing.

With only 1.8 ppm iron I'd let a correctly sized and set up softener deal with it. In your circumstances I'd recommend a twin resin tank softener which offers the advantages of making brine AND regenerating with treated (no iron) water. Makes no sense to treat iron and regenerate with iron laden water. Like washing dirty clothes with dirty water.

Oh, and smaller (undersized) softeners are not more efficient. On the contrary they will be regenerating more often, at higher salt does wasting salt and water, with hardness leaking through, and have a negative effect on SFR.


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RE: Water Softener Sizing Round 2

Sorry,
I mesured 13.55gpm using this method

A: To determine your flow rate please follow these two simple steps:
Open the NEAREST faucet or tap AFTER the pressure tank (But NOT the one ON the pressure tank)until the well pump turns on. Immediately turn off the tap and count how many seconds the well pump runs from the time it came on until it shuts off, then write down the number of seconds the pump ran.

Now get a container you can measure water in, such an empty gallon milk container. Open the tap or faucet and fill the container; close the tap and dump the water down the drain. Continue doing this and counting each gallon until the pump starts again. Write down the number of gallons you counted until the pump started. If there are any partial gallons left over count those as well; such as a total of 1.5 or 4.25 for example. You now have the information to calculate the well pump rate. Just give one of our techs a call and tell him how many seconds you calculated and then tell him how many gallons you were able to draw after that. He will then be able to tell you exactly what the flow rate is. This information is essential to properly size any backwashing filter (such as iron filters and water softeners) or other flow rate dependent items such as Ultra Violet (UV) systems. You should always know your flow rate on ANY private well.


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RE: Water Softener Sizing Round 2

I'm aware of how Budget Water says to do it.

Now, do it this way... Try just filling a gallon bucket at that hose bib, or better yet at the bath tub with both hot and cold faucets, and see how many seconds it takes to put a gallon in the bucket This is an important number and has great effect on correct soften sizing.

Because 13.55 gpm SFR is pretty impressive so we need to be sure.

And again. what size is the plumbing (pipes)?

How many bathrooms in the house?

Any water hog appliances like an uber-shower?


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RE: Water Softener Sizing Round 2

OK,
I used the regular method. I filled a 5 gallon bucket in 34 seconds. By my calculations thats almost 9 gpm

The current softener is hooked up to 3/4" pipes that run a short length to a 1" pipe. The 1" pipe leaves the water softener room towards the water heater. The rest of the pipes going around the house are 3/4"

3 bathrooms in the house

No water hogs on the softener. Low flow toilets and shower heads. No hot tub.
We do have outdoor sprinkler system but it uses hard water.

Thanks Justalurker.


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RE: Water Softener Sizing

What's the water TDS?

That makes more sense... 13.55 gpm from a 3/4" pipe is pretty impressive. 9 gpm is way more in line.

Fleck 9100SXT twin resin tank softener with top baskets, gravel under bed, and Noryl bypass (not the SS bypass). Fleck 2310 safety brine pickup/float in whatever brine tank you like. 1.5 cu ft of hicap 10% (not 8%) cross-linked resin in each tank.

Don't let your online seller change anything... insist on these parameters and options no matter what they say.

To set it up for efficient operation:
30k capacity
30 gpg (compensated hardness)
9 lbs total salt for 1.5 cu ft resin (6 lbs/cu ft)
calendar day override 5.

Should regenerate every 4 days and then switch tanks.

For routine resin cleaning, once a month use 1/4 cup of Iron Out, Super Iron Out, Rust Pro etc. dissolved into a gallon or two of warm water and pour it into the 4" round tube in the brine tank where the float is and then flush that with a quart of clear water. Wait two hours and then do a manual regeneration. Repeat procedure for the second resin tank.

At your hardness and with iron you should consider an under sink RO for cooking, drinking, and fridge-ice cube water.


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RE: Water Softener Sizing Round 2

Thanks
Just wondering the reasoning behind the recommendation for the twin tank softener in my case. Believe me, I have no problem paying a little extra money for it.

Also, should I think about sst resin?
Lastly, will this new softener likely give me better flow at my faucets? Right now it seems like my old softener is really impeding my flow rate but not sure.
Thanks
Thanks


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RE: Water Softener Sizing Round 2

Look 6 posts UP... "I'd recommend a twin resin tank softener which offers the advantages of making brine AND regenerating with treated (no iron) water. Makes no sense to treat iron and regenerate with iron laden water. Like washing dirty clothes with dirty water.". Don't make me type this stuff twice.

Since you haven't mentioned an old softener previously and I have no idea if it was correctly sized or operating properly all I can say is that what I recommended should not impact your flow rate.

I've made my best considered recommendation component by component INCLUDING the resin..


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RE: Water Softener Sizing Round 2

OK,
This sounds pretty good.
I am actually planning to order from Ohio Pure Water. I spoke with the guys at budget water.com and I just didn't get a really good feeling from them.
Any thoughts on a favorite online retailer?
Thanks


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RE: Water Softener Sizing Round 2

You're on the right track but my experience is that they'll try to talk you out of the gravel and want to supply the SS bypass. Insist on the gravel and Noryl bypass and top baskets. Make double sure you get 10% cross-linked resin and not SST. These options shouldn't cost any extra over their standard web page price.

There are a variety of options in connectors (more than they show as choices) available for the yoke so make sure you choose the best for your installation.

Program it as I posted and you should be OK.


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RE: Water Softener Sizing Round 2

OK,
Thanks for the info. I'll make sure to get the options you specified.


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warning - water softener super iron out use

Not sure how to rate this product. WARNING - DANGEROUS
Purchased this to use in my WATER SOFTENER.

It was recommended to use as a iron remover treatment for water softener and water softener resin.
The back of the bottle gives directions on this use and I followed the directions EXACTLY.

I am convinced this use poisoned myself and my dog and possibly other household members. Dog was throwing up daily and I had terrible headaches and nausea. Other family member had lesser symptoms. Since dumping entire salt/brine tank, washing thoroughly and regenerating the softener multiple times - slight chemical smell has gone, headaches have ceased and dog is no longer vomiting. We had to switch to bottled water until I cleaned out our softener system. Trying to warn others of this possibility.

After using the recommended mix of Super iron Out and water and adding to the brine tank, I performed a recharge on my water softener system as directions stated.

The next morning I noticed a somewhat chemical-like smell from the water while taking a shower. Didn't know if this was a new shampoo my kids were using or other smell as it was faint and hard to detect.
My thinking was perhaps it was the Super Iron Out bleeding into the water but thought "No, they would never give instructions to use this in your water softener with ANY possibility of ingestion if there was ANY slight chance of it being harmful would they? ... no way ... there has to be some oversight, or maybe they are overstating the danger for legal purposes?" So I didn't assume it was the Iron Out (and if I did, I thought .. "this must be normal as the resin must be now cleaned and maybe this is the by product of the process?"). I was trusting the directions.

Couple days go by and smell subsides.

I am waking up with terrible headaches but no symptoms of flu, cold, etc. one child is saying he is "a bit tired lately". Dog is vomiting multiple times a day (just small bile regurgitation's - when and if he ever throws up, it is rare but it is usually throwing up with something ... food ... chewed item, etc). Wife also said, his stools in the yard were mostly white in color. Not a panic because we through he was just sick or had something.

Dog is rarely ever sick and I am rarely sick but the headaches were odd - like a migraine upon waking (which I never get). Dogs and humans don't get sick from same things and dogs are usually much more durable and you don't really ever notice them with symptoms like humans have - so when both of us were ill I was wondering if it might be something we are both ingesting (like tap water).

Not everybody was impacted so i thought it was nothing. Kids did mention water looked like it had almost invisible particles in it but it didn't taste too "weird".

After about 3 days, I started wondering and went to the salt tank and smelled - it had a strong "cleaning agent odor", i smelled the Super Iron Out bottle and it had same smell. Probably not the best idea since so many on here warn of this being a very NASTY chemical and caustic.

At that point, I was not taking any more chances. I dumped the salt (all 120 lbs of it $$$) and pulled the salt tank off line took it outside and washed it thoroughly. I reattached it and put new salt and ran the regenerate about 4x.

Smell is gone and no more headaches and dog stopped vomiting.

Thinking dog drinks only water and alot of it (and is only 75 lbs) so maybe he was affected worst.

This in no way a scientific conclusion, only my experience.
I cannot comment on using this as a cleaning agent only but I would be very careful where you have ANY chance of indigestion no matter how great your water softener is working.

I am thinking of a RO system for drinking water from now on - here we are, adding all this salt to the water, etc and even though they say it washes out of the softener - I am not so sure. this incident has me rethinking the whole issue of water safety for my family. You can never be too safe with something so key to your health and well being.


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RE: Water Softener Sizing Round 2

goodguy,

These directions work better than the directions on the bottle...

"For routine resin cleaning, once a month use 1/4 cup of Iron Out, Super Iron Out, Rust Pro etc. dissolved into a gallon or two of warm water and pour it into the 4" round tube in the brine tank where the float is and then flush that with a quart of clear water. Wait two hours and then do a manual regeneration".


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RE: Water Softener Sizing Round 2

Did you follow "first use" or "regular use" instructions? There is a note to the instructions:

NOTE: If taste or odor is detected in tap water, manually regenerate softener, then run cold water until odor is gone.

If you wish to use an iron cleaner without the potential health effects, you could switch to ProChem ResCare, which is phosphoric acid rather than a variety of sodium sulfite compounds.

An RO would remove either from your drinking water.


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