I would never use a cabinet softener. Periodically (annually or at least every few years), a brine tank needs to be cleaned out and a cabinet softener makes it much more difficult to do so. Although it is possible to get a cabinet with a Fleck valve, most cabinet softeners are built with inferior quality parts and resins.

As to the appropriate size softener for your conditions, it's a little difficult to tell based on hardness alone. pH and TDS, along with a few other things would be good to know to ensure you won't get hardness bleedthrough. Since you have city water, get a copy of the quarterly or annual quality report - if your city posts it online, provide a link so I can see if there are any potential issues.

If you really need a tiny softener while still maintaining the ability to get adequate flow through the resin, you will want a packed bed softener, such as those Kinetico sells. They tend to be more costly, but have proven themselves to be very reliable.

For future consideration, you might consider hiring a plumber to install a proper softener drain that would allow you to place the softener in a more convenient location in the utility room.

Thank you!

I thought I had heard not to get a cabinet softener, but wanted to be certain I had the right information.

Here's the latest water report: http://www.mudomaha.com/sites/default/files/12.ccr_.web_.pdf

In other info - the whole supply system has been replaced with pex on our side of the meter - the 1925 galvanized pipes barely had a pencil sized opening left. Service line to the street is of unknown age. Already have a Watts RO 4 cartridge system under the kitchen sink, and a GE whole house filter right off the main to catch the amazing amount of dirt that gets in from the city lines (we're in the oldest part of the city). Already have the water lines separated for all the non-processed water for the boiler and hose bibs.

Oh, and family size - me (she of the 30+minute showers), DH, 2 HIGH SCHOOL girls, and occasionally the college girl. And a German Shepherd for good measure. ;-)

I don't need a super small softener, there's room for a full size resin tank and brine tank (18x30), it just won't be super convenient to access. DH and I were working out the details of the easiest solution tonight - I think we're moving the water heater a few feet to the side of the utility closet that is a bit harder to get to (if we need to replace it or service it beyond a drain check/flush, we'll probably have to pull the softener out)- knock wood, HWH don't need too much attention (actually we think ours dates back to the 50s or 60s at least! It's the miracle tank. We speak around it in hushed tones.)

Our drain problem is that the utility/boiler room where I'd rather have the HWH & Softener is too far from the main stack for a proper drain run (the main barely clears the slab - old house, house was plumbed 40yrs after it was built, basement fully dug out about 25yrs after that.) - I can't get the right pitch to connect. So short of adding a sump and pump, the electric HWH and the softener need to go in the closet next to the stack in the bathroom . It was just a matter of making sure we could reach them with a closet door once the bathroom is finished around the current HWH ledge in the not yet finished basement.

Thanks again aliceinwonderland_id for your tireless assistance of people here! I've noticed!

Always ;-)
Hunzi

This post was edited by hunzi on Wed, Jan 29, 14 at 1:33

I wish all municipalities did as much water analysis as yours. The only concern I have with your water is pH - it is quite high. While this won't necessarily have negative impact on softener performance, it could have an impact on the life of your resin. For that reason, we will want to size your softener slightly on the large side and go longer between regenerations to avoid undue stress on the resin.

Normally I shoot for about 7 days between regens, which would be a 1.0 cuft softener for you. However, because of pH, a 1.5 cuft softener will be better. Using 9 lb salt per cuft of resin, it will need to regen every 12 days when 4 people are home, 10 when the 5th is there.

As you call around for quotes, whether from local vendors or online, specify the following:

• High quality American or German made resin. This will provide a tight size distribution for optimal flow within the resin. This is particularly important with the high pH of your water.

• Since you have CITY WATER: 10% crosslinked resin. The oxidizers that city water treatment plants use, such as chlorine or chloramine, are harmful to softener resins. Higher crosslinking will resist chemical attack longer.

• Top basket. This serves two purposes. It sets up a proper water distribution during normal operation and prevents resin loss during backwash.

• Gravel underbed. The gravel underbed is there to set up proper flow patterns, improve backwash and prevent channeling. Many softener sales companies like to leave this out or sell softeners with a vortex system instead. Vortex systems weigh less than gravel so they cost less to ship. In addition, they are a more expensive item that adds profit for the softener salesperson, but provides no additional benefit to the homeowner . It simply adds another piece of equipment that can break.

• Fleck or Clack valves. These set the industry standard. Be aware that you will not be able to purchase Clack valves online. This is not a problem if you purchase locally. A Fleck 5600sxt would do nicely. I would avoid the 7000sxt in your situation - it is a fine controller, but does take up a bit more space than the 5600.

• Noryl bypass. Most softeners are available with either Noryl or stainless bypass valves. Both are good valves, but the noryl tends to be more reliable when not used for long periods of time.

• Install the softener with a three-valve bypass. This will make it so much easier if you ever need to remove the softener for repairs or wish to take it with you when you move. Use full-port, quarter-turn valves.

You may also want to consider softened water for your boiler - Am I correct in assuming it is for heating? Particularly with your high pH, the scaling potential is pretty high in that system.

This post was edited by aliceinwonderland_id on Wed, Jan 29, 14 at 10:53

Thank you!!!

Glad to hear my water board is doing a good job.

I'll do a little research, but it appears that all the local companies are connected with the major brands - culligan, kinetico, ecowater, etc, so I will probably order online.

Questions: I've looked at a couple of the online places - affordablewater, discountwatersofteners, qualitywaterforless, - only one seems to offer the 10% resin, how do I make sure I get that, and that it's made in USA or Germany - are there brand names? and none of the websites I've looked at so far mention the top basket or gravel underbed - how do I make certain I get that?

I understand posters may not want to recommend a certain company, but are there ones that have good reputations or bad ones?

On the 3 valve bypass - are we talking about valve on the inlet, on the outlet, and between the two lines above the valves? Just want to be sure I understand - diagrams are welcome because I don't always articulate details in a way DH understands.

I had split off the boiler with the hose bibs because I thought I had read no softened water in boilers - there's A LOT of water in the system, hundreds of gallons, - this is a 1925 cast iron boiler and huge 4 inch cast iron feeders to 1.5 inch risers and big cast iron radiators for a 2600sqft house (really it's over 3000, but the 800sqft basement is only heated off the radiant heat from the boiler - and it's very toasty down there!)

Help a girl out! ;-)
Always ;-)
Hunzi

10% crosslinked resin: Vendors prefer to give you their cheap Chinese resin because profit margin is higher. Most places can get better resin. They may not have it listed on their sites because they may not sell much of it. Purolite is a good brand, as is anything from BASF. You can always ask the vendor for the specific resin they will supply and either look it up or come back here and ask about it. You will likely have to call and speak to an actual person to ensure you get precisely what you want.

Top basket/gravel underbed: Same thing - you'll want to call and speak to someone.

When dealing with any vendor, whether online or local, it really comes down to which one you feel comfortable dealing with. Call as many as you can and get a feel for how they treat you and how willing they are to give you what you specify without quibble. I'm happy to evaluate bids.

Bypass should look like this (although the orientation could be different to fit in your location).

When the Softener is in service, valves should be set like this:

When the softener is in need of service/repair but you still want water flow to the house, the valves should be set like this:

Boiler: Softened water in a boiler is fine, particularly with high pH water. At this point it may be a hassle to replumb so may not be worthwhile to make a change. Since it is a closed system, you can only form so much scale and then it will stop scaling. If you ever need to completely empty the system, it would be worth filling with soft water.

Thank you again!

I'll chat with DH about the feasibility of running a fill line back from the softener to the boiler (having them so far apart is really a pain in the fanny, but it's where the HWH has always been located, and the only place to locate a floor drain, and now there's finished space between them so I only have one useable pipe chase bulkhead across the joists (without tearing down ceilings and drilling holes) and it's getting full.

We've owned the house for about 20 years, and probably have drained down the boiler system 3 or 4 times in that period - and I can anticipate at least a few more times to come - as we renovate room by room, we need to drain the system to be able to move the radiators out of the way (and strip the paint off them, clean them up). So I can see the advantage of softened water. Luckily, we've haven't seen much build up on the pipes when we've moved things.

I'll be back with my quotes and questions when we get closer to installing the softener - could be a couple of weeks or months.

DIY projects tend to take longer, especially when there are 2 perfectionists involved and this is our first full bath from scratch (as in all the way to the dirt in the basement!) Our main floor powder room converted from a closet turned out fantastic, but the whole having to pour slabs etc and get everything just right before it's set in stone is much more planning and time consumptive than just working in the existing joists/framework!

Always ;-)
Hunzi

One more question on sizing:

Right now, we are usually a family of 4, plus one college kid home for holidays - in the summer, when the exchange students go home, we're a family of 3, because CollegeGirl is home for the summer.

However, I can see a few years (say 3-5 years) down the road, and I may not have exchange students any more, and Miss Independent will probably get her own place ASAP after college - so then I'll just be a family of 2! (Who will perhaps have guests/grandchildren visiting eventually - still will have 2.5 bathrooms with the possibly of adding 1 more (a master bath).

So if I get a 48,000 grain/1.5 cubic foot resin size, am I getting way oversized for future use?

Or is that not a problem?

Or am I better going smaller now, and having it regenerate more frequently?

Prices between sizes seem pretty insignificant - only about $50 more, so that's not an issue.

Just want to be certain I'm shopping for the right thing!
Always ;-)
Hunzi

Because of your high pH water, I would still go with the larger size, or compromise with a 1.25 cubic ft softener. The longer times between regeneration will place less stress on the resin.

Great. I just wanted to be sure that buying on the large side wouldn't be detrimental when there were less people in the house.

Went down and measured our space again, and convinced DH it really does fit without having to disturb the water heater and there's enough room to add salt. Hopefully the plumbing gods will continue to smile on us.

I haven't actually phoned the online softener guys yet, but one site says they'll send it preloaded - so I'm assuming that means I don't have to pour the gravel and resins in the tank myself etc, and will only have a small amount of plumbing and programing the valve to do.

How heavy are these things? Am I going to wish they sent the resin & gravel in a separate box when it's time to lug it down the basement stairs? (not that I do any actual lugging around here - being the Chief Planner, Procurement Officer & Quality Control Inspector has some privileges (poor DH gets the title of Manual Labor). ;-) Of course, as Chief Procurement Officer, that means I'll also usually have to wrestle the salt bags into the trolley & the truck at Costco (but he'll unload them for me.)

Thanks again for answering all my questions!
Always ;-)
Hunzi

I wouldn't want it to come preloaded. Although it is an issue, the fact that it would be heavy and difficult to maneuver is the least of my concerns. Preloaded, you have no way of knowing whether or not they installed the gravel. Additionally, you have no way of knowing what type of resin is installed. You also have no way of knowing how long it's been put together, if it is actually new, and under what conditions it has been stored. Perhaps I'm just cynical, but I want to put it together myself so I know precisely what it in my softener.,